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Did they exist?

Started by bran_gray, February 04, 2010, 07:44:39 AM

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bran_gray

I've been attempting to find information on mercenaries of the Tudor era and all I'm finding is European groups that were quite well known.  Which leads me to my question.

Were there mercenaries from England?

crazyrennie

I did a bit of research-not too sure abut the timeline issue but I did find this
"Men from England, Germany, France, Hungary and Catalonia came to Italy during the 14th century to serve the various city-states and principalities.  Among the most famous was the Englishman John Hawkwood, who commanded the White Company and became quite wealthy from the services he provided. Although the city of Florence honoured Hawkwood by burying him in their cathedral, Caferro writes, the mercenary's "most fundamental allegiance was to England."

Hawkwood served as ambassador to Richard II from the beginning of the king's reign in 1377 until his own death in 1394, and took part in several diplomatic missions for England, including working with Geoffrey Chaucer to negotiate a marriage alliance with the ruler of Milan. Caferro notes that Hawkwood was not unique in this aspect, as several other mercenary leaders did the same for their kings.

Caferro also found that Hawkwood's choice of Italian employers was sometimes the result of King Richard's foreign policy. For example, "his service in Naples on behalf of Pope Urban VI and Charles of Durazzo in 1383 makes sense only in terms of King Richard's policy, which favored Urban and Charles against the French antipope and his French Angevin allies. The region was hard hit by plague and famine, and both Urban and Charles had little money with which to pay their armies."

The article finds that Hawkwood and other English mercenary leaders always made sure that their contracts contained a clause "to which the men explicitly refused to fight against the interests of the king of England." Furthermore, these foreign mercenaries often used the money they earned in Italy to buy property and goods back in their home country. Hawkwood, for example, purchased the Leadenhall in London as well as numerous manors around southern England.

Caferro finds a sense of nationalism among the rank and file foreign mercenaries, which can be seen most readily when they got involved in brawls and fights with each other. Disputes between individuals often resulted in soldiers lining up beside their fellow countrymen. "The most spectacular and lasting feud was between English and German mercenaries in 1364-1365. It began within the Florentine army at the end of the Pisan war and burgeoned into a full-scale war, with Germans and English forming into separate companies, chasing each other throughout much of central Italy, while local states watched helplessly."

Their employers had to keep these ethnic tensions in mind when hiring mercenaries, and would usually arrange their armies to keep the various peoples with their fellow countryman. When the city of Pisa launched a campaign against Florentines in the summer of 1363, they had their English and German soldiers separated into two separate armies, which took different routes to march on Florence, only joining up when they reached the city's walls."

thats from http://medievalnews.blogspot.com/2010/01/reseach-reveals-new-details-about.html

McGuinness


bran_gray

Very interesting read.  So could it be agreed upon that even if there wasn't a specific and well known company during King Henry VIII's reign that there were perhaps mercenaries that held loyalty to England no matter where they went or who they were working for.

Thank you for the help crazy, I've been doing so much research I think my eyes are ready to bleed.  And most of the time I've found I really have to dig for any sort of decent answers.

Capt Robertsgrave Thighbiter

Well look at the Swiss mercs of the period, most deadly and feared.
Yet, they would sumarily march away from thier clients battle if their
province in Schweise was threatened!
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DonaCatalina

Mostly by Henry VIII's time the only mercenaries left were some remnants of the Swiss companies and the Landskenecht. Concerted efforts by the Eurpean crowns effectively put most mercenary companies out of business by 1485.
If I remember correctly, the Swiss companies signed on for perpetuity with the Vatican to avoid the excommunication that the other mercenary companies suffered.
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tiberiusflynn

I read somewhere that Cromwell had actually done some Mercenary work back in his younger days before coming to serve in Henry VIII's court. So thats at least one English mercenary....

Molden

Why yes, yes they did...

Farts have existed ever since the dawn of man. Noxious and odious, they appeared at the most inappropriate tyme. Time and again, wreaking havoc and causing abrupted departures e'er since they bubbled their scurvy way to the water's surface eons ago.

always remember dear children, he who smelt it, dealt it...
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DonaCatalina

Wrong thread Molden...LOL
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Sir Ironhead

Quote from: Molden on April 22, 2010, 03:42:36 PM
Why yes, yes they did...

Farts have existed ever since the dawn of man. Noxious and odious, they appeared at the most inappropriate tyme. Time and again, wreaking havoc and causing abrupted departures e'er since they bubbled their scurvy way to the water's surface eons ago.

always remember dear children, he who smelt it, dealt it...

I always thought they appear at the most APPROPRIATE time  ;D
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bran_gray

Quote from: Molden on April 22, 2010, 03:42:36 PM
Why yes, yes they did...

Farts have existed ever since the dawn of man. Noxious and odious, they appeared at the most inappropriate tyme. Time and again, wreaking havoc and causing abrupted departures e'er since they bubbled their scurvy way to the water's surface eons ago.

always remember dear children, he who smelt it, dealt it...

"One mans trash is another mans treasure"

And what I was trying to research by the way was whether individuals were sell swords during the time of Henry VIII.  I don't have enough renfaire friends yet to come walking in as my own mercenary company.  The character I was thinking about fleshing out was mercenary part of the time and hunter the other part.  Kind of a scout role.

tiberiusflynn

Quote from: bran_gray on April 24, 2010, 11:23:57 AM


"One mans trash is another mans treasure"

And what I was trying to research by the way was whether individuals were sell swords during the time of Henry VIII.  I don't have enough renfaire friends yet to come walking in as my own mercenary company.  The character I was thinking about fleshing out was mercenary part of the time and hunter the other part.  Kind of a scout role.

Well, like I said, I know Cromwell was one at some point, I'm sure there were others that were mercenaries, there might just not be much historical data on them if they never made it famous like Cromwell did. How I see it is, mercenaries have always existed from just about every land for thousands of years. Maybe England wasn't famous for its mercenaries, like Switzerland but I'm sure there were some if not many in Henry VIIIth's time.

Poldugarian Warrior

Yep, evry nation then had mercenaries, and some worked alone, acting as assassins or oweing no allegiance to any crown, and fighting for the highest bidders, when it suited them. And only sometimes joined groups. That's my character, but I'm usually fighting on the side being attacked. So I try to fight for right. But, keep in mind there weren't too many like me most mercs, were soldiers just looking to get rich from war.

groomporter

The Scots had a long history of providing mercenaries to various parts of Europe inlcluding Poland Germany, and Holland and in greater numbers than the English from what I have read. A group known as Stewart's Regiment played a role in the Revolt of the Netherlands in fighting against Catholic/Spanish control of the Low Countries in the 1570's, and by the 30 Year War, it's estimated that between 20 and 30 thousand Scots served under the command of Gustavus Adolphus.
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/germany/army.htm

Many of the mercenaries of the time were respected troops that were well-disciplined and known for their bravery and skill. The troops I'm speaking of were not hired as individual soldiers of fortune who carried whatever weapons caught their fancy -as is often portrayed in fantasy novels and role-playing games. But rather, were recruited and organized by noble officers who contracted to supply units of infantry such as pikemen, bowmen, (and later, musketeers*) to supplement the local forces in times of war since most countries did not have large permanent standing armies as we think of today.

*Remember, musketeers were simply soldiers who did battle firing muskets, not the swordsmen as portrayed in the Three Musketeers

(I started out at MNRF with a living history group that portrayed a company of Scots mercenaries on their way to the continent)
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Poldugarian Warrior

groomporter got it right though, most mercenary groups were well disciplined troops serving a specialized function, and getting paid quite well, but they aren't a disorganized lot. The whole mercenary history is quite interesting because you had almost evryone fighting, even against their own country at times, depending on whom they decided paid the best, or the politics at the time.