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Author Topic: Looking for an unusual firearm  (Read 7239 times)

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Offline brier patch charlie

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Re: Looking for an unusual firearm
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2010, 05:13:30 PM »
I wonder how large of a load you would need  to launch a 2 lbs iron ball 200 yards. Most military loads at the time was only 69 gains of 3f. G-D help you if you had a short fuse, LOL. I have to say it does look nice for a kit gun, but the price tag gave me sticker shock, but then again all parts and every thing else has gone up.
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Offline Merlin the Elder

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Re: Looking for an unusual firearm
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2010, 05:58:35 PM »
Ok, I'll throw this out here.  I am looking for a firing reproduction of a wheel lock grenade launcher.  It was the precurser to flintlock weapons of the same type used by Grenadiers in the late 17th and 18th centuries.  They were used to shoot grenadoes or hand bombs at opposing troops, they were just as or maybe even more dangerous to the person using them and were hugely unpopular with the soldiers.  They were really more of curiosity, but and interesting and important one, as they are the forerunner of all modern grenade launchers.  I'm doing research into the use of these weapons to possibly introduce one into a reenactin unit, pending the captain's approval of course, and was wanting to buy one.  Unfortunately, I can't find anyone making one, the closest thing I found was a kit from the Rifle Shoppe to make a 17th/18th centurty flintlock.  I have not asked it the flintlock can be replace with a wheel lock, because the kit is pretty expensive, far more in fact than I am looking to pay.  I was hoping someone on here might know of someone who could make such a thing for a reasonable price.  Thanks for any help I get in advance

Matt

I know this helps not, but I knew a guy (used to shoot with years ago) that had a collection of antique firearms that more than likely had one of what you are looking for in his collection. I saw what he kept in his house, and it was a more impressive collection than I've seen in any museum...and it was just a very small part of his collection. He had a Colt Dragoon in his collection (albeit, in very poor condition, but if you're familiar with the rarity of ANY condition of this revolver, you'd be impressed, too). Most of the weapons in his collection were in functional condition, and in pristine condition. I'd not seen anything like his collection before or since. He had cap-locks, flintlocks, wheel locks, and match locks.
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Offline madmanpsu

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Re: Looking for an unusual firearm
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2010, 08:59:18 PM »
I wonder how large of a load you would need  to launch a 2 lbs iron ball 200 yards. Most military loads at the time was only 69 gains of 3f. G-D help you if you had a short fuse, LOL. I have to say it does look nice for a kit gun, but the price tag gave me sticker shock, but then again all parts and every thing else has gone up.

I know what you are saying there.  I have a matchlock musket on order from Sykes Sutler and it is 52 caliber and shoots 50 grains of powder, I believe.  Period pieces were ussually 75 caliber and shot a corresponding 75 grains, I believe.  This is exactly why I say these weapons were unpopular with the troops.  The wheel locks themselves tended to be unreliable, the powder was of  inconsistent quality and the amount used was  most likely very dangerous and the fuses tended to burn at inconsistant rates.  This weapon was more to show the captains wealth and success than anything else.  The main reason I want one is that I like to be different from what other people are doing and since I have never seen anyone else doing this, I think that I am pretty much going to be different here.  I also like the idea of shooting tennis balls a few hundred yards for fun ;D

Offline Bolton_Bailiffe

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Re: Looking for an unusual firearm
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2010, 02:44:01 AM »
Sorry to be late to this dance, but you might inquire of the proprietor J. Buck of www.musketmart.com

He is a reenactor and a friend.  He used to supply Syke's Sutlery with muskets until there was a falling out, the reasons for which had no bearing on the quality or safety of his muskets.

Offline Capt Robertsgrave Thighbiter

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Re: Looking for an unusual firearm
« Reply #19 on: March 18, 2011, 02:48:54 PM »
 One word of caution madman, firing black powder weapons is not illegal and in most states , BP weapons are NOT considered firearms.

BUT, if you shoot an actual grenade, like a fused tennis ball with BP in it, that gun now becomes not only a firearm, but changes the classification to, I believe, a WMD.   

On the BP Cannon site I belong to, the moderator immediately clamps down ANY discussion of how to accomplish this, cuz the ATF and the FBI regularly scout that message board, and they want NO trouble with those folks.
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Offline Merlin the Elder

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Re: Looking for an unusual firearm
« Reply #20 on: March 18, 2011, 03:40:30 PM »
One word of caution madman, firing black powder weapons is not illegal and in most states , BP weapons are NOT considered firearms.
You should qualify that statement, Captain. They aren't considered firearms for the purposes of transfer of ownership, although legitimate BP weapon dealers aren't going to sell to a 15 year-old.  But that doesn't mean you can fire one within the city limits. I know of no jurisdiction that differentiates a weapon using smokeless versus black powder when discharging a firearm within city limits.

Another word of caution, Madman. You don't indicate the level of your familiarity with black powder. Unlike modern smokeless powders, which are classified as propellants, black powder is an explosive. If you aren't well-versed in it and its properties, do not experiment with it.
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Offline Capt Robertsgrave Thighbiter

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Re: Looking for an unusual firearm
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2011, 12:00:49 PM »
Merlin, by ATF definition, black powder guns that were made previously to 1890, I believe, or REPLICAS of those are not considered 'firearms'. Trust me, I spent the better part of a whole day in contact with the Boston, NY and Washinton offices of ATF when I imported a half scale black powder cannon.

 And of course some citys have ordanances regarding discharge of anything, but in example, I live on Long Island, NY in a town called Brentwood. We regularly fire all our flinters and cannon, as we do BP drills for exhibition.  THe only time the cops showed up, they were far more interested in how we stored the BP then anything else, as is right.  You're 100% correct BP is an explosive and needs to be handed accordingly.

Madman, I suggest if your serious, seek out the local CSA or other Civil war re-enactor group - those folks have the whole BP thing down pat and are super safety minded.

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Offline Merlin the Elder

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Re: Looking for an unusual firearm
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2011, 01:44:31 PM »
Yes, I'm fully aware of the ATF view, which is why I said that they aren't firearms for the purpose of transfer (sale). I believe this applies ONLY to muzzle-loading weapons. There are cartridge weapons originally designed for black powder cartridges that would still fall under regulations as newer weapons do, i.e., .45-70.  Guns over 50 years old (or of special significance, like historical) can be transferred between Curio & Relic licensees, but age alone does not remove a weapon from the list of firearms, per se. If you were to be caught sending an original Winchester 73 through the mail without proper paperwork, or firing it withing city limits, ATF and the locals would get rather tight-jawed about it, despite it being 138 years old.

I'm assuming that if you are firing with the city, you are firing "blanks" or are in an area designated safe, and that the authorities are aware of what is going on. I'd be willing to bet that you wouldn't be walking free for long if you were to whip out a pair of Navy revolvers and start firing in NYC, Boston, or Washington.

I realize that laws have changed since I was a gun dealer, but I don't think they've changed that much. The advice to Madman is wise, though, as the locals will also be able to fill him in on local, state, and federal ordnance ordinances.
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Offline bsdmon

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Re: Looking for an unusual firearm
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2011, 06:08:32 AM »
BUT, if you shoot an actual grenade, like a fused tennis ball with BP in it, that gun now becomes not only a firearm, but changes the classification to, I believe, a WMD.  
It is a DD (destructive device) not a wmd lol. You can own them including modern grenade launchers and artillery pieces but you must register them with the atf which requires a $200 tax, passport photos, fingerprints but is pretty simple. There is no license needed, they just send you a tax stamp. The laws for owning a short barreled rifle/shotgun, suppressor or machine gun (made before 1986, only applies to mg's) are similar they just have to be registered. Your state must allow it also. Texas allows everything. In total they are called NFA items which lots of people own.

I don't think he was planning on shooting exploding tennis balls if he doesn't even want to shoot real metal balls.  I think buying a functioning replica to shoot non-real ammo such as tennis balls is a waste of money. Though in reenactments only powder is put in the bp guns with no projectile i'm sure many of those guys load them up for real at the range to see what they can do even if just a couple times out of curiosity.

 Anything that can take a cartridge does not qualify as an antique. Which is why working replicas of colt peacemakers are treated like any other firearm even though they were designed for bp cartridges. Unlike replicas of earlier cap and ball bp revolvers which can be shipped to your house.

Capt: I think you missed merlins point. I think his concern is people without firearms knowledge reading your statement and assuming other gun laws don't apply to them such as shooting in city limits even if there is no projectile. Which is why he said you needed to qualify your statement. Most places will allow it for ceremonies. I know cities near me fire off cannons on certain holidays. But the average joe firing one in his back yard for giggles would not go off so smoothly I imagine in city limits.

The following links may help clarify.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-nfa-destructive-device.html

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html#antique-definition
« Last Edit: May 12, 2011, 06:20:48 AM by bsdmon »

Offline madmanpsu

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Re: Looking for an unusual firearm
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2011, 04:02:49 PM »
I havn't checked in in a very long time and things have gotten busy on this thread. I am very well versed in black powder and it's safe handling. I do not intend to shoot real exploding tennis balls from the gun as that would be unsafe no matter how done so far as I can see. If one would wish to do this period style (substituting a bp filled tennis ball for a real granado) it would involve putting a lit fused tennis ball into the barrel that is filled with bp to fire said ball. DO NOT DO THIS as putting any type of lit fuse into a barrel containing pb is DANGEROUS and could result in the bp going off. Even if a patch is placed between the ball and powder charge in the barrel, loose grains of powder could be stuck to the barrel walls or flammable powder residue could be on the barrel walls which could ignite. I was thinking of shooting intact tennis balls from said gun, but this would not be done at reenactments as this would be considered a projectile and prohibited. I would only do this at a range or the rural area where my parents live. I would NEVER fire even blank charges within the confines of a city or town, unles it is done at a reenactment event where an area has been set aside to safely do so and permissions have been acquired. While it may not be illegal to do so, I am very sure the police would take a dim view of such an activity. So far as I am aware, this would not be classified as a WMD, so there should be no issues there. I thank everyone who weighed in on this, safety is always a top priority of mine when handling pb. When I shoot my gonne or my matchlock, I always follow safe handling of the powder, match and weapons themselves. When handling any firearm, reproduction, antique or modern, it should always be kept in mind that while we may refer to them as our adult toys, they are NOT TOYS, they are real weapons. Even if the are obsolete by modern standards, if they are improperly handled or used, people can get hurt. Use common sense and caution when playing with black powder and you shuold still have all of your fingers and toes at the end of the day.

 

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