Court Gown Question

[Kathleen MacLeod]

I've kind of got two questions here. I'm getting ready to make a court gown for faire this year. I've bought the pattern and the fabrics and I was all set to go until I watched the Elizabeth movie with Cate Blanchett today. I was noticing as it went on that there were almost no slashed skirts in the film. Is it historically accurate to have a skirt of one solid material, or is it moreso to have a split overskirt with an underskirt of different fabric? Is it an evolution through different time periods but both of the renaissance, or is it just a matter of preference?

Secondly, if I decided to go the route of one skirt, would it look strange to have a bodice of different material and make the sleeves out of the same material as the skirt? Originally I had planned to do a bodice and overskirt of one fabric and the sleeves and underskirt of another, but I'm leaning toward changing my mind at this point. If I went the route of one skirt, would it look weird to have the rows of trim down the middle like I would if it were split? This movie has utterly bamboozled me! 

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

[operafantomet]

I've kind of got two questions here. I'm getting ready to make a court gown for faire this year. I've bought the pattern and the fabrics and I was all set to go until I watched the Elizabeth movie with Cate Blanchett today. I was noticing as it went on that there were almost no slashed skirts in the film. Is it historically accurate to have a skirt of one solid material, or is it moreso to have a split overskirt with an underskirt of different fabric? Is it an evolution through different time periods but both of the renaissance, or is it just a matter of preference?

Secondly, if I decided to go the route of one skirt, would it look strange to have a bodice of different material and make the sleeves out of the same material as the skirt? Originally I had planned to do a bodice and overskirt of one fabric and the sleeves and underskirt of another, but I'm leaning toward changing my mind at this point. If I went the route of one skirt, would it look weird to have the rows of trim down the middle like I would if it were split? This movie has utterly bamboozled me! 

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

Whatever you do, don't think for a second that the Elizabeth movies (with Cate Blanchett) have any kind of historical accuracy in the female costumes... They are fantasy Elizabethan, with a few exceptions (+ the hairdos are pretty good). Alexandra Byrne, who designed the costumes, might know her costume history, but her agenda is to mix a historical look with a modern esthetic view. She's done the same for most movies she's designed for (except "Finding Neverland").

If you're heading for historical accuracy, you should make the bodice and skirt of the same fabric, and rather make the sleeves of another fabric. There are a few examples of bodice and skirt not matching in paintings from the 16th century (at least in Italy), but they are very much the exception and often shows unorthodox styles or uncommon features. If you are to depict a noble lady of the 16th century, you would have bodice and skirt made of the same fabric.

As for the skirt split, both occurs in the fashion of the era. If you choose a split skirt, the overskirt should be made of identical fabric to the bodice, while the underskirt should be of a contrasting fabric. You don't always need to make a full underskirt; often a "trompeuse" (skirt front) of fine material could be used, while the rest of the skirt (not visible) was of a plainer material. You can see what I mean in Jennifer Thompson's recreation of a portrait from Bergamo in Italy:

http://www.festiveattyre.com/gallery/moroni/index.html

[Queen Genevieve]

I do the split skirt, and a few different underskirts. I'm sure what ever you make will be beautiful.

[raevyncait]

Also keep in mind the following:

1. there are a TON of sites/movies that are based on history, but they may or may not be historically accurate... this forum does provide a wealth of information though, and picking brains here is a fabulous resource

2. No matter how accurate a gown is, if it isn't comfortable for you to wear, it's useless, so be sure to get someone to help you fit it properly... preferably BEFORE you start cutting your pieces out of your good (and likely expensive) fabric.  Muslin is your friend... especially for mocking up hard to fit pieces like bodices.

3. a quality, comfortable for you to wear undercorset is an invaluable foundation piece, especially with a court dress

4. Finally, as I have been told by a long time faire patron, seamstress, garb shop owner, and historical costumer: "as long as you are not working, either in a shoppe or on cast, you have paid your money to get in, you can wear whatever makes you happy, it doesn't HAVE to be historically accurate unless YOU want it to be."

[gem]

Agree with everyone here!  If you're looking to know what was done in period, I recommend portrait research over film (tho' we all love to drool over the movie costumes!). You'll find that there really is a lot of variation, but things definitely fell into patterns by age and region, and you'll pick that up the more images you look at.

Here are some sites to get you started:

http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/
http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/index.html
http://www.marileecody.com/nobilitypics.html

[DonaCatalina]

As far as portrait research,
this is one of my Favorite sirtes.
http://www.wga.hu/index1.html
You can search for portraits in the time frame that interests you.

[Kathleen MacLeod]

Thanks so much, everyone! I took your wonderful advice under advisement and decided to go with the over skirt/bodice in the same fabric and make the sleeves and underskirt out of a different. For that one I have hunter green satin for the dress part and gold brocade for the underskirt/sleeves. I was also able to get some beautiful home decor fabric for half-off last weekend (Yay for Joann's red tag sales!) so I'll have a blue and silver ensemble, as well.

Here are my next questions (and there will be lots of them in the days to come, so bear with me!). The subject of today's inquiry is... bumrolls!
*I've seen a few portraits where the court women seemed to not be wearing a hoop or farthingale of any kind. That is to say, it looked like they only had a bum roll under their skirts. This wasn't technically acceptable, was it?
*Bum roll--I made one and it kind of makes it look like there's a shelf underneath my skirts. Is this what it's supposed to look like?
*Do I need to do anything differently measurement-wise if I'm planning to wear a bumroll underneath this new dress? The green one (Simplicity 3782) I think is supposed to be worn with a bumroll, but the other one (Simplicity 2589) I don't think is made with that in mind. Will this be a problem?

Thanks in advance! You're all so helpful to a novice like me

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

I wear a bumroll despite it all. It gives more of that Elizabethan look and also gives the impression of a smaller waistline.

[gem]

The Margo Anderson pattern has a little diagram showing how the bumroll smooths out the fall of the skirts--taking what would bell up and out over the hips like an early Victorian gown and letting it fall in a more conical shape appropriate to the 16th c.

Um... if you're looking at portraits where it looks like they're only wearing bumrolls, I would have to say that that probably means it *was* technically acceptable.  My understanding is that there isn't any evidence of bum rolls in period, but we know similar things were worn in the late 17th and 18th centuries, so logical conjecture has led costumers to use a similar piece to achieve the proper silhouette.  (I don't know if there's new evidence for bumrolls--period tailors' guides or wardrobe inventories and the like.)

There are a lot of options for skirt "oomph," from padded pleats to bumrolls to stiffened gown hems to fabric-only petticoats, to corded petticoats, to full-on boned farthingales... and a lot depends on location, time period, social class, and the activity being performed.  For a court gown (particularly if you're looking at English, French, or Spanish costume), you certainly can't go wrong with the farthingale + bumroll + underskirt + cartridge pleated overskirt route.

As for measuring, it probably depends on the pattern. The Margo Anderson patterns don't ask for hip measurements, but the Simplicity ones would (but I'd assume that's your pre-bumroll measurement). The main thing it will affect is the length of the skirt, so if you're iffy on it, make your bumroll *before* you get to the point of hemming.  (I've made the Simplicity 2721 bumroll, and it's quite modest in size.)

[Cilean]

I am with everyone else on the accuracy of Movies, I had the chance to speak to several designers, and I found out it is more about making a 'name' in their business and what the Director wants and needs from them.  Like in the First 'Elizabeth' movie with Cate Blanchet, they new the Henrician design of Gown that the sleeves should have been heavy. Supposedly it was very very cold, and lined with fur and all, but they wanted to show that during that time the Princess, known as Lady Elizabeth was 'light' and unfettered, or without responsibility so she had clothing that was light and airy almost.  It was a stylized choice because the Director wanted her to look a certain way and it had nothing to do with H/A.  Just like The Tudors did not choose to create new gowns that were Henrician, but due to budget simply took what was already out in the costume shop, they had a plethora of Elizabethan Gowns, so they used them!! Now if you look at the last Season, some of the ladies are wearing Henrietta, but most are still wearing Elizabethans, the reason? The Designer said because people know Elizabethan and they would not know what Henry actually wore.  I guess we are all to silly and vapid to do some research.




Then as she became Queen and grew into her responsibilities? Her gowns became more structured and rigid:


By the Second Movie she is encompassed and in dark colors:



This her lady in waiting has a better gown for H/A:


About Bumrolls vs Farthingale usage
Since we we really don't know if everyone used a bumroll and a Farthingale at the same time, we can only make conjecture.  Several people believe it was used separately and some say they were used in conjunction during the 1560's to the 1580's then the Wheeled or French Farthingale came into popularity and the bumroll was used under the wheel to help it stay in place.  But we don't know. I am using a bumroll instead of using any hoop at all for my Summer Liz.