What is the best tudor gown pattern for a novice?

[Rowan MacD]

  During the cold days of winter, I have decided to try my hand at gown making.
I have already done 3 frock coats, some breeches and a few surcoats and kirtles, skirts and blouses (really simple stuff), but no bodices.
 Is there a decent pattern out there for beginner Tudor style dress makers? I know I'll end up ripping out seams, bugging people for advice, and the end product will probably look odd which is why I'm going to use some cheap fabrics I have on hand to practice on.
 There are no seamstresses in this area experienced in costuming (at least, none that I  
would trust to have a clue what the dress should look like) and having a seamstress here make me a custom mock up to send away to have a professional make me a dress would cost almost as much as the finished dress itself.  My alteration seamstress told me it would probably be cheaper to fly out to meet a costumer.
 Advice please!

[Kathleen MacLeod]

When you say Tudor gown, are you meaning you want the big bell sleeves? That's what I always think of when I hear 'Tudor gown'. The only two noble gowns I've had a hand in making have been from Simplicity 3782 and 2589. 2589 has the big Tudor sleeves but it's a total fabric hog. The skirt is full enough that even over my massive hoops it often falls completely closed over the underskirt. 3782 is a pretty basic, versatile renaissance pattern. If you're a beginner, I'd recommend that one over the other. It uses less fabric, and I think the general construction is a bit easier. I've seen a lot of people leave the sleeves off of that one, stick shoulder epaulets on, and just wear a chemise under it.

Am I correct in assuming it's the bodice part that you're most worried about? That's really the difficult part--the skirt part is easy. You may want to consider making just a practice bodice first. It doesn't sound like you've really worked with boning before, and that was what I had the most trouble with when I made my first bodice. If you go very slowly and carefully, you can probably get a good bodice on your first try. My first one turned out well, but it was very time consuming. Once you get the bodice construction in hand, though, you're most of the way to having a good gown

[Kate XXXXXX]

It's REALLY worth investing some time and money in a good pattern.  Go for either the Tudor Tailor ones and the book, or Margo Anderson.  Don't waste time or dosh on Reconstructing History: they take WAAAAAAY too much effort to get to fit unless you are the size the patterns were originally drafted, and even then...  Simplicity and McCalls are OK if you like fantasy versions, but not much of their stuff is terribly historically accurate in this period.

None of the techniques are difficult in themselves, but a good outfit takes a serious investment of time, even with all major construction done by machine.

Invest in a decent corset FIRST!  Make a toile of that, and once you have it fitting nicely and can start on the real thing, put the toile on the dress dummy and pad up, like I did for my 18th C adventures:



Then the dress dummy can stand in for much of the fitting and fussing needed to get the gown correct.  

[DonaCatalina]

I'll second the recommendation for the Tudor Tailer pattern with Simplicity 2589 coming in a distant second. Period Patterns and Reconstructing History will make you pull yourself bald-headed.

But definitely, you need a good corset first to get so you can get proper measurements. If you don't want to make your own, I can vouch for these ladies.

[Rowan MacD]

  Kathleen: I can do with out the sleeves. Maybe I'll try a bodice first. Thanks!
 Kate: I like those patterns but I don't think that those are for beginners.  I need a very simple pattern with simple to follow directions.  Definatly nothing elaborate or even HA,  just something to cut my teeth on.
  I don't have the experience to deviate from the pattern to 'fix' or 'adjust' things if they don't fit.  I have never even sewn a bodice and I have never done anything with boning at all.    we're taking serious newbie here.
  Just looking for opinions on over the counter (not mail order) patterns that I can buy, that others have already done, and are reasonably idiot proof.  
  I already have a Tudor corset,never worn, but made to my measure by Castle garden creations.  It has tons of boning, back lacing, and a stiff busk in front, it looks quite a bit like the ones on the dress dummies.
  Originally I was planning on have a dress made, but there is no one remotely close to here that can or is willing to take on a project like this.  
 Thanks!
 
 

 
 

[Kate XXXXXX]

 Kate: I like those patterns but I don't think that those are for beginners.  I need a very simple pattern with simple to follow directions.  Definatly nothing elaborate or even HA,  just something to cut my teeth on.

In all honesty, the TT and Margo patterrns are MUCH easier than skiddling to make a 'simple' commercial pattern fit!  REALLY!   

I don't have the experience to deviate from the pattern to 'fix' or 'adjust' things if they don't fit.  I have never even sewn a bodice and I have never done anything with boning at all.    we're taking serious newbie here.

You are going to learn while you do this.  NO pattern, even one you draft to your own measurements, will fit straight off the paper.

Just looking for opinions on over the counter (not mail order) patterns that I can buy, that others have already done, and are reasonably idiot proof.  

Hm...  'None' comes to mind.  The commercial ones all seem to have more problems than they cure.  It's TT, Margo, or draft yer own, love!  Really!

I already have a Tudor corset,never worn, but made to my measure by Castle garden creations.  It has tons of boning, back lacing, and a stiff busk in front, it looks quite a bit like the ones on the dress dummies.
  Originally I was planning on have a dress made, but there is no one remotely close to here that can or is willing to take on a project like this.  
 Thanks!

Get the corset on and take some pix.  Then get it on a dummy and get to work!

It's huge amounts of fun and most of the hard stuff is in choosing the fabrics and the trims.  You can fit so far on the dress dummy, and then you need a handy fitter to fit it on you.  It's tedious rather than difficult!  You'll feel like a cross between a pin cushion and a shop window display by the end of it!  With guidance from us, you and anyone with a little fitting experience can get it right.  Honest!
 
 

 
 
[/quote]

[Lady Rebecca]

Are you at all decent with math? I found the corset pattern on http://www.elizabethancostume.net/custompat/ to be really nice and simple. The only hard part is following their instructions on drawing the lines on your own paper. But if you have a ruler or two, it should be pretty easy. And it will have already taken your measurements into account, so you won't need to worry about altering it. It shows you suggestions on where to put the boning, but you can choose how much you want to add. All you need is two layers of cotton canvas and 1/2 bias tape for the boning channels. Since there's really no seams, it even becomes reversible really easily. And you can choose if you want back lacing or front and back. This is what I made with it this summer:



The only thing I would have done differently would be to measure my front a little shorter.

If you decide to do this pattern, I even have a picture of my boning channels if you need it.

[Rowan MacD]

  Sweet!  That looks pretty simple and straight forward too   I admit to being scared spitless about trying to sew...

[gem]

I have all of those mentioned patterns, and having studied them at length (and made bits of them), I'm going to say that the Margo Anderson pattern is what you want.

Yes, it's expensive.

Yes, there are 100+ pages of instructions.

But... there are 100 pages of instructions!!  She literally tells you what to do every single little step of the way!  The cutting layouts, fabric information, and especially the fitting instructions are like having somebody hold your hand while you sew (well, metaphorically, 'cause it would actually be really hard to sew that way). The pattern includes every single size and gives step-by-step instructions for fitting every single part of it. She also has this awesome Yahoo listserv that's even more like having somebody hold your hand while you sew.   Kimiko Small, who did the research for the Tudor manual, is very active on the list and really patient about answering questions.

I love Tudor Tailor--the pictures are incredibly inspiring--but you are TOTALLY on your own when it comes to getting the pattern to fit. First, you have to scale it up to full size, and then you have to figure out how to grade it to your own measurements. I am actually the exact measurements the patterns are designed for, and I still had a nightmare of a time getting the Tudor kirtle bodice to fit me (never actually quite got there, although I think a fifth fully-boned mockup would come pretty close). There are also numerous confusing typos (at least in the edition I have)--diagrams that are mislabled, instructions given for views that aren't pictured, etc. IMO, Tudor Tailor is definitely not beginner-friendly. However, I do think it's a really important costuming resource if you're interested in the period, because it does do such a great job of breaking down the individual pieces of all the garb. Also there are fabulous hats that work up easily.

All that said, what's "easy" or "beginner friendly" is a really personal thing. What I found confusing as a beginner might be really easy for you, and things that made total sense to one person might take years of experience for another to really figure out.

I think that if I were in your position--not wanting to make huge mistakes with expensive materials/patterns/etc--I'd probably be inclined to try the Simplicity pattern, too. It makes a lot of sense: a learning project from a (more or less) disposable pattern, not too much financial risk. The drawbacks with this method that I see are that the instructions can be difficult to follow because the steps sometimes seem like they're in arbitrary order, with no explanation of what some of the weird steps are *for.* I always feel like I'm sort of flying blind with Big 4 patterns: I have to trust that they'll get me there, even if I have no idea why I'm doing a particular step. I just sort of think sewing is easier when you know how each step contributes to the finished project.  *That* said, when I finally got fed up with my Tudor Tailor kirtle and wanted a project that I could actually finish, I turned to the Simplicity corset pattern from the same series (2621, the green damask one), and I promised myself that I would follow the instructions EXACTLY, and even if it didn't fit 100% perfectly, I was going to wear it anyway.  It was actually very freeing for me, as a frustrated seamstress.

I would say, however, that if you've made kirtles, then you already probably know the basics of getting a gown/bodice to fit you--and the bodice is by far the hardest part--so the bits that make something Tudor should be relatively easy for you to layer on top of that, no matter what pattern you use.

Good luck!!

[Kathleen MacLeod]

I have never even sewn a bodice and I have never done anything with boning at all.    we're taking serious newbie here.

Get thyself to a Home Depot, stat! Many of the ladies here, including myself, swear by heavy duty cable ties to use as boning. It's much cheaper, and I personally think they hold their shape a lot better than most of the plastic boning I've encountered. You should give it a try when you get to that point in your project 

[operafantomet]

I think you're given some very good advices already. What I have to add is more historical tidbits than actual sewing advices. But here goes:

The pre-French-revolution-fashion largely depended on fairly big chunks of fabric sewn together. The skirts were very often sewn of square pieces, not triangles. For early and mid 16th century style three or four widths of fabric were sewn together and pleated in the waist. This is both period and very easy to do! For fuller pleats, fold the fabric down two or three times, and just gather it with a thick thread. It can be sewn to a waistband, or directly to the inside of the bodice.

The panels of the bodices weren't cut in multiple hourglass shapes like for example Victorian time; instead two or three larger panels formed the bodice. Some of the Italian bodices I've made are made of two pieces: one front and one back. This is how my last bodice looked before I ironed and boned it:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/pavonazzo/bluebodice.jpg

The two panels are laced together at the sides, as seen here:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/pavonazzo/blueflor1.jpg

When I make dresses with back or front split, they are made of three pieces, as these:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/bordone/DSCN7145.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/venetian/vensept2.jpg

So: go for a pattern with as few panels as possible. Avoid so-called princess seams (curved seams going over the bust, like here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dawntastic/2549671924/ ), as they complicate rather than ease your job. Besides, they didn't happen until centuries later.

That said, I'm curious about the Colleen-Atwood-was-inspired-by-Elizabethan-fashion-for-Red-Queen-and-Simplicity-has-made-a-pastiche pattern. The messy fabric and ruffled hem apart, it looks cool. Anyone tried it?
http://www.simplicity.com/p-5394-misses-alice-in-wonderland-costumes.aspx

[CenturiesSewing]

Rowen you are getting some good advice but here are a few other things to think about, some which you most likely have heard in other places too. =)


Layer by layer

Smock: Do you have one already to use or are you planning on cutting the gown to fit the neckline of it?
In most paintings you see just the very edge of it. Another thing to think about is how full the sleeves of your smock are, too much volume in them means you have to cram the fabric into the narrower Gown sleeves.

Petticoat: For modesty (flying farthingales are never a good thing) and comfort, does not have to be very full.

Farthingale/hoop: Are you going to wear one with the gown? If so then you need to allow for extra length to go over the farthingale and you cannot cut the gown and kirtle skirts as just square panels, it will hang funny.


Kirtle layer: This is the material you see that is the underskirt and at the edges of the necklines in the paintings, often set with jewels. How you might want to make this layer is up to you. A fully made, side lacing, lightly boned dress you can then use for other projects is always a good thing in my book. But some folks prefer to use stays/corset and separate underskirt. If you use the corset and underskirt method make the corset with straps and lace the farthingale and underskirt to the bottom of the corset. It will keep things from shifting and take the weight off your hips and waist (bumrolls were not used yet). And you can tack a strip of your underskirt fabric along the front neckline of the corset to make it look like the kirtle is peeking out.


Gown: The gown needs to be fitted over the kirtle layer to make sure everything stays smooth and straight but also because the gown neckline needs to be cut slightly lower then the kirtle layer, so the decorative fabric (with optional gems) will show. The simplicity pattern does not do this and it is one detail I wish they had kept.
I don't recall if the Simplicity pattern is front or back lacing or not, but it gown should lace up the front and then be covered with a lightly boned placard/stomacher that hooks to one side.

[Cilean]

I guess the first thing to say is Welcome to the Madness!! LOL  I lean towards Historical Accuracy, so my thoughts would be to look at the whole of your gown, do some research check out what era and country you like print out portraits and do sketches of what you would like your piece to look like.  Here is what typically goes into a complete outfit;

From the Skin Out!!
   A. Stockings and perhaps bloomers
   B. Smock and PoB (Pair of Bodies or what you might know as Corset)
   C. Farthingale or Corded Petticoat
   D. Petticoat (to keep the hoop rings from showing)
   E. Kirtle or Forepart and tied sleeves
   F. Gown Bodice and Skirt plus sleeves
   G. Hat and accessories

Patterns I Recommend:

Margo's http://www.margospatterns.com/, with Margo's guides,  you can make every single thing you could think of in an Elizabethan gown.  She has really good research and reasons for why things were as they were, so in all it makes for a new to this course to build your skill set and achieve really great results.

My Next Choice for Patterns is from Tudor Tailor www.tudortailor.com  The ladies at Tudor Tailor are stupendous, I can not vouch for their stuff enough. I am hoping they will be able to make it to Eastern America in 2011, just so I can fly out and take more of their classes.

Reconstructing History~ www.RecostructingHistory.com  While there are a lot of choice at this site and I really enjoy the men's choices, you might need to toile or make a mock up a lot if you are not the sizes that are specific to the pattern.  Also if you are larger than a normal size 12, the sizing gets really tricky. There are not a lot of information in the pattern so if you are not a really good seamstress it might make you crazy.  Just have chocolate and wine on hand for those times!!  (Any excuse to have chocolate)

Lynn McMasters www.lynnmcmasters.com Lynn makes awesome hats and she has some great information on building garb as well.



These pattern sets are expensive so I would suggest adding them to the holiday wish list for family members to get together and purchase for you! 

Also might I suggest if you don't have one already: Fabric Stash

Most people think of gaining their gown fabric, but lining, fabric for smocks-farthingales-linings-trim it all adds up! So by finding them on sale and hoarding them (I mean storing them LoL) you will have what you need when you need it.

Good Luck!

Cilean

[Sabrina Black]

Wow, reading all this is inspiring me to make a gown 

[Kate XXXXXX]

Gem the TT patterns can be bought full scale! 

http://www.tudortailor.com/patternshop.shtml

[Queen Genevieve]

I think that pipe strapping works much better than cable ties.

[Kate XXXXXX]

It really IS worth the effort and the minor extra expense* of getting real corset boning.  For this era, poly baleen replacement stuff is what you need.

*If there is any!  I found it faster, less expensive per usable inch, and a lot easier to find proper boning of the right type than to get cable tie substitutes.  Don't look in the high street shops, though: buy from a haberdashery wholesaler catering to corset makers.  I had a MASSIVE saving on cotton tape and reels of boning.  For example, a whole 25m reel of narrow Trenslo triple fold boning was about £6.  Bought in the shop, the same reel is about £19.

[Cilean]

Wow, reading all this is inspiring me to make a gown 

20 years ago now? I began make Messes I thought were gowns, so I would say emphatically to get a sewing machine, some fabrics and good patterns and go for it!!

In my day? We had to use wedding dress patterns, the only patterns out there were the Period Patterns and the others were for Wench gear, not my personal cup of tea! So I say-
Why not make it your New Years Resolution!!! 

This year we did a set of workshops for the skin out and many people are still on the PoB and Smock section still! Some are involved in pearling the heck out of their foreparts/kirtles and others are still looking for the perfect fabrics.

It takes time and energy, but in the end it will result in something you can feel good about and? You can make it as wonderful as you want it to be!!

Cilean