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non-Scottish wearing kilts

Started by Ser Niall, June 10, 2011, 12:26:12 PM

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Julianne

I take umbrage to "adopting" a clan and doning the kilt simply because you like the colours.

If you want to portray a scot then wear an non-clan kilt.

escherblacksmith

so . . . when you get down to it, you have a several choices

1. get a general plaid fabric for a great kilt (I'd recommend a thickish wool blend for the right weight and swoosh as you walk, also great for bustling)
2. get a short kilt (not really period, but neither are most festivals), the ones most readily available are considered open (royal stewart, blackwatch, etc).
3. get a good accent and wear whatever is handy/appropriate for your particular fair(e).  Which is what a itinerant wandering scot would do anyway.

As it is, I have a really good great kilt and a terrible accent.  But then again, have you ever tried to explain 12 Man Morris to an 8-year-old with a thick scottish accent?  I couldn't understand a thing he said.

 

--

groomporter

Quote from: Nighthawk on June 13, 2011, 12:15:05 AM
Ah! Truis! I personally prefer a nice great kilt for warmth, but you can't beat truis for convenience!  ;D I like those- they're unusual. They look a lot like the diced hose of the 1800's. Where did you get them?

They were made years ago by my sister-in-law who's one of the costumers at MNRF she also made the Black Watch ones I'm wearing in my profile pic. From what I've read early trews had a tighter fit than later military styles and since they are cut on the bias the wool "gives" a little more. I started wearing them instead of a kilt back when I started portraying an officer instead of a lowly pikeman.
When you die can you donate your body to pseudo-science?

Nighthawk

Quote from: groomporter on June 13, 2011, 01:09:50 PM
They were made years ago by my sister-in-law who's one of the costumers at MNRF she also made the Black Watch ones I'm wearing in my profile pic. From what I've read early trews had a tighter fit than later military styles and since they are cut on the bias the wool "gives" a little more. I started wearing them instead of a kilt back when I started portraying an officer instead of a lowly pikeman.

That's exactly right- they were more like tights than anything else! I'd love to see a better picture of the Black Watch ones. In your avatar, they just look like solid black!

Quote from: escherblacksmith on June 13, 2011, 12:11:19 PM

2. get a short kilt (not really period, but neither are most festivals), the ones most readily available are considered open (royal stewart, blackwatch, etc).


That's not entirely true. A lot of Highlanders just didn't bother stitching the two halves of the kilt together. Take this picture of my buddy Rondo for example:



It pleats like a great kilt, but the top 3 inches or so just flop over the belt. It wasn't as common, but this style of wear was around at the same time as the great kilt. We call the modern tailored kilt a phillabeg, but this is what a true phillabeg looks like.

Quote from: Julianne on June 13, 2011, 12:23:20 AM
I take umbrage to "adopting" a clan and doning the kilt simply because you like the colours.

If you want to portray a scot then wear an non-clan kilt.


I tend to agree on the basis of historical accuracy.

groomporter

Quote from: Nighthawk on June 13, 2011, 05:29:18 PM
Quote from: groomporter on June 13, 2011, 01:09:50 PM
They were made years ago by my sister-in-law who's one of the costumers at MNRF she also made the Black Watch ones I'm wearing in my profile pic. From what I've read early trews had a tighter fit than later military styles and since they are cut on the bias the wool "gives" a little more. I started wearing them instead of a kilt back when I started portraying an officer instead of a lowly pikeman.

That's exactly right- they were more like tights than anything else! I'd love to see a better picture of the Black Watch ones. In your avatar, they just look like solid black!

Here's the Black Watch pair worn as part of my Jacobite outfit (The coat and vest were inspired by an color plate in the Osprey Men at War series on the Jacobite Rebellions.) I like to wear this subtle outfit at 18th century reenactments on Sunday morning when people have hangovers


Here's a mustard & black pair I have that my wife like the best



When you die can you donate your body to pseudo-science?

Nighthawk

Quote from: groomporter on June 13, 2011, 05:52:58 PM

Here's the Black Watch pair worn as part of my Jacobite outfit (The coat and vest were inspired by an color plate in the Osprey Men at War series on the Jacobite Rebellions.) I like to wear this subtle outfit at 18th century reenactments on Sunday morning when people have hangovers


Here's a mustard & black pair I have that my wife like the best





You know the only things missing? A basket hilt, a steel pistol, and a flattened powder horn! JAS Townsend had some a week or so ago if you already have one. I know what a pain in the rear end it is to flatten horns... They smell bad when they're hot, too!! I so want to make you a targe to go with those outfits!

groomporter

Got a basket hilt, but as a merchant these days it just gets in the way, always wanted one of the pistols...
When you die can you donate your body to pseudo-science?

escherblacksmith

Quote from: Nighthawk on June 13, 2011, 05:29:18 PM
That's not entirely true. A lot of Highlanders just didn't bother stitching the two halves of the kilt together. Take this picture of my buddy Rondo for example:



well, yes, but I was referring to the stitched modern style, with the sewn in pleats and whatnot.  That is readily available in open patterns, but isn't very period.

To be fair, though, I have never seen direct evidence of what you are referring to.  I don't doubt it was done, just have never seen evidence.

--

Nighthawk

Quote from: escherblacksmith on June 14, 2011, 08:15:57 AM


well, yes, but I was referring to the stitched modern style, with the sewn in pleats and whatnot.  That is readily available in open patterns, but isn't very period.

To be fair, though, I have never seen direct evidence of what you are referring to.  I don't doubt it was done, just have never seen evidence.



I see your point! I thought you were referring to the philabeg... My mistake!!

On the subject of direct evidence... You're right. But keep in mind that the people who would have worn the kilt were poor Highlanders for the most part. The people who got their portraits done were the wealthy, which is what we base a lot of our knowledge on, and the way the wealthy did things was not the way the destitute did them, just like today. There is actually very little direct evidence for anything the average Highlander did. We can speculate on what makes the most or least sense, like keeping herds out to pasture in spring, summer and fall, and in quarters in winter. That's the way it was done because the herds would freeze to death otherwise. But we don't know exactly how the great kilt was actually put on, for example. We're pretty sure we know- the way we put it on today makes sense- but there's so very little direct evidence for anything!! As a matter of fact, there is direct evidence that the kilt was occasionally worn pleated all the way around!!



And I can't find any decent size pictures of Flora MacDonalds Farewell To Bonnie Prince Charlie, but it also looks in that painting like Prince Charlie's kilt is also pleated all the way around! It's interesting what evidence actually does exist, isn't it? I'd love to go back in time 3 or 4 hundred years just so I can ask all these question!

Julianne

#24
I'm kinda gobsmacked at the idea that the only scots that don kilts were highlanders?  Lowlanders unite!!!!!!!!!!!
We all know of the laws and the banning of colors, etc.  but the traditions proved steadfast and the lowland clans are still there.
Portraits done of englishmen exalting their scottish claim aren't really true interpretation of the scots.

Again, I have to say that if you aren't of scot descent but you want to "play" a scot at a ren faire then please stick to "universal" tartans.. most have some pretty cause so pick a cause.


gem

My husband is of Scottish ancestry (Clan Macewan, with some Munro and Ogilvy), but I am not. My understanding is that having married into the clan, I married into the "right" to wear the clan tartan. The tartans are rarer, however, so they're not always readily available from mills... and hence are more expensive than a basic, non-clan-affiliated plaid. Milord wears a custom-woven Macewan kilt, but I just didn't want to spend the money, especially since I am not of Scottish descent. So I wear a generic plaid arisaidh instead, from some lovely wool plaid yardage I picked up from Hamilton Dry Goods.  Usually, however, on Scottish days at Fair, I'll wear one of my other gowns with a plaid wrap of some kind--I have one cozy fleece one, and one from the "Braveheart" movie tartan (we liked the colors and it was ridiculously inexpensive for 9 yards of wool!).

Nighthawk

#26
Quote from: Julianne on June 24, 2011, 12:06:33 AM
I'm kinda gobsmacked at the idea that the only scots that don kilts were highlanders?  Lowlanders unite!!!!!!!!!!!
We all know of the laws and the banning of colors, etc.  but the traditions proved steadfast and the lowland clans are still there.
Portraits done of englishmen exalting their scottish claim aren't really true interpretation of the scots.

Again, I have to say that if you aren't of scot descent but you want to "play" a scot at a ren faire then please stick to "universal" tartans.. most have some pretty cause so pick a cause.



I think this was simply stated as an historical fact. The lowlanders made more of an effort to emulate the continental fashions, as they regarded the Highlanders as savages. No one said there was anything wrong with a Lowlander wearing the kilt. I myself am a MacLeod who's ancestors came from the Isle of Skye, so we're actually of Norse descent. The vikings settled on Skye, and Leod is a Norse name! As to universal tartans, absolutely! They're more period realistic. Clan tartans didn't exist until about 160 years ago, and are themselves a myth that was generated by a couple of Polish men who wrote a book called The Costume Of The Clans. They're information was based on a misinterpretation of the way tartans were made. They mistook the fact that different regions had different tartans to mean that different clans had different tartans, which they didn't. The MacLeods of Skye had a different tartan from the MacLeod of Dunvegan, for example, and it wasn't because one wanted to say "Look at me!! I'm a MacLeod of Skye!" It was simply that the Highland MacLeods had different dye-making resources available to them, and vice versa.

And I have a question- why the statement about paintings of Englishmen?  ??? I have yet to see any posted in this thread.

Quote from: gem on June 24, 2011, 03:08:22 PM
My husband is of Scottish ancestry (Clan Macewan, with some Munro and Ogilvy), but I am not. My understanding is that having married into the clan, I married into the "right" to wear the clan tartan. The tartans are rarer, however, so they're not always readily available from mills... and hence are more expensive than a basic, non-clan-affiliated plaid. Milord wears a custom-woven Macewan kilt, but I just didn't want to spend the money, especially since I am not of Scottish descent. So I wear a generic plaid arisaidh instead, from some lovely wool plaid yardage I picked up from Hamilton Dry Goods.  Usually, however, on Scottish days at Fair, I'll wear one of my other gowns with a plaid wrap of some kind--I have one cozy fleece one, and one from the "Braveheart" movie tartan (we liked the colors and it was ridiculously inexpensive for 9 yards of wool!).

The Braveheart tartan is actually a really good one! It's probably one of the most realistic tartans you can wear for the period. Most dyes were made from natural, local resources, and would have had that very earthy look to them. The MacKenzie weathered tartan is also exceptional for that. Mel got nothing else right in that movie... but the tartan? That was a stroke of genius! Or exceptionally good luck...

Nighthawk

I found some more of those paintings! They're of Jacobite period Highlanders.




According to J. Telfer Dunbar, the earliest definitive image of the "little kilt" is in a portrait of Alasdair Ruadh MacDonnell of Glengarry, dated to the early 1740's.  In the painting, Glengarry himself is wearing a belted plaid, but his henchman to the rear has on a philabeg:



It's a bit hard to see, but those who have seen the original describe that kilt as being pleated in its entire circumference, common to the period.  Now, that all-round neat pleating would be rather hard to achieve by throwing 4 yards of fabric out on the ground, hand-pleating it, and belting it on - the way modern reenactors don their "great kilts."  A drawstring or pleats stitched into place seems more likely.




Nighthawk

Something else that may be of interest!

Here's what Matt Newsome says about solid color-kilts:

But as for simply "non-tartan" kilts, those have been around for as long as the kilt itself, and are very traditional. It has never been a requirement
that a kilt be made from tartan, and though tartan has always been the most popular cloth for making kilts, other options have always been there.

The earliest evidence we have of a solid color kilt is in a portrait of Sir Duncan Campbell of Lochow painted in 1635 (recently posted in the historic
portrait thread). He's wearing a solid red feilidh-mor.
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