Is this plausibly historical?

[Sunshine]

I'm still pretty new to the renfaire scene, and this will be my first time trying to dress up in something besides a re-purposed pirate dress. I've been looking around on the web for garb ideas, and I really like the style of this Venetian dress by Likely Lotus, not least because it's different looking from the usual skirt and bodice combo. However, that also has me wondering. Even though it says it's based on Lorenzo Lotto's paintings, I haven't seen any side splits in the paintings I've found during an admittedly not-hugely-thorough image search (though I did learn that Venice was apparently the hippie Portland of the Renaissance when it came to clothes).

Is the dress plausibly historical? The Des Moines Renfaire is not exactly the SCA when it comes to costume accuracy (and I love it for that), but I'd like to be at least plausible.

[isabelladangelo]

What they are trying to do with that dress is combine two layers into one dress.   You can see what it is most likely based off of on this page.  It's the first drawing.  The dresses of this period were high waisted, sewn at the sides (most of the time, the lacing was either at the front or back, allowing for the skirt to be a piece of yardage that is just pleated to the bodice).  They sometimes wore an overdress over the main dress -the overdress could be open at the sides but it was often unfitted.   

[Lady Renee Buchanan]

I made this using a McCall's pattern.  It's so darned hot at Bristol in the summer, I can't stand to wear a bodice most of the time.  Historically accurate?  No.  But based on the comfort and coolness I feel when I wear it, and the number of compliments I receive when I wear it, that doesn't matter to me. 

[DonaCatalina]

Isabella is right; it's on the way to accurate; but lost quite a bit in the translation. On the other hand....being new to Faire I would not suggest that you start off worrying too much about historical accuracy and spend a fortune doing it. I've seen people spend tons of money on very elaborate Elizabethan dresses only to discover that they did not like the style and were more comfortable wearing something more Flemish. Ask other people you see at fair about their garb and where they got it if you see something that you like.

[Rowan MacD]

 I have these two :


Red Celtic online-the Massy was bought at LL at DMRF. 
   They have wonderful, durable clothes, that are a compromise between HA and practical.   LL uses fabrics that in just about every case can be washed at home, and any dry clean only parts are buttoned on so you can remove them for seperate care.
   Most slavishly HA court dresses are not really good for faire: They featured long trains, heavy fabrics, fussy laces, sleeves and other aspects not suited to dusty, dirty and hot conditions, not to mention gravel paths and unfinished wood that catches on every loose thread. 
   

[isabelladangelo]

There is a huge difference between h/a court wear and historically accurate everyday wear.  Far to many bemoan the h/a without making this very big distiction - it's the difference between wearing a ballgown and your jeans and t-shirt today.  

I've worn a very h/a pink linen dress with a linen chemise - all handsewn- on 99 degree days without an issue. For some reason, people tend to forget that it got hot in the Renaissance too!   They knew how to dress when it got hot - and it wasn't what you got your protrait taken in.  We have letters, writings, and even some manuscript pictures all depecting what even the nobles wore on "normal" days.  

You can very easily, and comfortably, go h/a.  It's not something cumbersome as some may depict it as - yes, the court dresses can be but those were the ball gowns of the Renaissance.  It's like saying wearing whatever the latest fashion on the red carpet is such a pain so I'm going to run around in a bathing suit...  It just doesn't make sense in the context of the Renaissance.

Sorry if this seems a bit harsh but I'm tired of people bashing the H/a when, honestly, it's what they wore all the time in period and do you really think our ancestors would run around in something that is uncomfortable every single day?  It's just not a logical assumption.

Not the best picture, but my pink linen 1510's Italian dress, entirely handsewn

[The Rabbi]

There is a huge difference between h/a court wear and historically accurate everyday wear.  Far to many bemoan the h/a without making this very big distiction - it's the difference between wearing a ballgown and your jeans and t-shirt today.  

I've worn a very h/a pink linen dress with a linen chemise - all handsewn- on 99 degree days without an issue. For some reason, people tend to forget that it got hot in the Renaissance too!   They knew how to dress when it got hot - and it wasn't what you got your protrait taken in.  We have letters, writings, and even some manuscript pictures all depecting what even the nobles wore on "normal" days.  

You can very easily, and comfortably, go h/a.  It's not something cumbersome as some may depict it as - yes, the court dresses can be but those were the ball gowns of the Renaissance.  It's like saying wearing whatever the latest fashion on the red carpet is such a pain so I'm going to run around in a bathing suit...  It just doesn't make sense in the context of the Renaissance.

Sorry if this seems a bit harsh but I'm tired of people bashing the H/a when, honestly, it's what they wore all the time in period and do you really think our ancestors would run around in something that is uncomfortable every single day?  It's just not a logical assumption.

Not the best picture, but my pink linen 1510's Italian dress, entirely handsewn

Well said While I myself try to be historicaly concepted not H/A I do agree that you made a very valid point. Dressing H/A need not be such a hassle as these people carried on much as we do today with work and chores that needed to be done and without all of our modern contraptions. At our wedding my wife wore a very simple and yet elegant Irish overdress and barefoot as shoes were not everday wear. I do truly appreciate those with H/A costuming/garb and love the simplicity of your dress as it does indeed look comfortable and elegant as well. I think there is room for both H/A and H/C and applaud your comments and knowledge.

[Rowan MacD]

  Perhaps I should have clarified-The slavishly HA gowns I mentioned were the elaborate  court gowns seen at various SCA functions-all indoors. 
   I did not mean to come across as slamming HA garb.

  As Isabella pointed out, it is very possible and not at all hard to be HA, as long as you dress appropriately to what ever you are doing and use the right fabrics.
    I don't think you would see all that many court gowns at a village faire.  It would be like wearing a wedding gown to a farmers market. 

[BLAKDUKE]

I have these two :


Red Celtic online-the Massy was bought at LL at DMRF. 
   They have wonderful, durable clothes, that are a compromise between HA and practical.   LL uses fabrics that in just about every case can be washed at home, and any dry clean only parts are buttoned on so you can remove them for seperate care.
   Most slavishly HA court dresses are not really good for faire: They featured long trains, heavy fabrics, fussy laces, sleeves and other aspects not suited to dusty, dirty and hot conditions, not to mention gravel paths and unfinished wood that catches on every loose thread. 
   

You have these two??   The dresses or what in them???

[Sunshine]

Wow, I think I asked the right crowd.  I never would have picked up on that origin without Isabella explicitly pointing it out. That pink dress is very reassuring, and I love Lady Renee's philosophy ("comfy + compliments = win"), too.

I get the impression that just adding a simple colored underskirt to the original dress would give me historical-enough cover? I do like those side splits.

[isabelladangelo]

Sewing up the sides would be better and quick.   Just leave about a 7 or 8" gap from the waist down so you can get into the dress. 

I did a quick ebay search (and etsy but etsy tends to be $$$) and found this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/280859874269?hlp=false

Although some the seller's description makes me cringe (this style was popular in the early 16th c, not 15th and rayon maybe cellous but that's all that is natural about that) I think I know the exact linen weave she is using.  It's from Joann's fabric and I've used it myself once in a blue moon.  It's 55% to 65% linen so it's pretty decent to use for Renn garb.   I think you'll be happier with this because it is pretty close to h/a but also because it's made to your measurements and not off the rack.    It does make a difference in comfort.

[DonaCatalina]

I do like that Isabella. She could add contrasting sleeves at some point in the future if she wished.

[Rowan MacD]

I have these two :


 

You have these two??   The dresses or what in them???

LOL.  Nah, just the dresses.   
I don't wear the Massy's anymore because I don't do that many inside events.
   The train would need to be lined to drag over gravel and wood chips, so I had to carry it around, and that got old quick!
  The red velveteen Celtic has seen 6 seasons, and still looks like new.   I let my daughter wear it now, since it no longer fits. 

[operafantomet]

I'm still pretty new to the renfaire scene, and this will be my first time trying to dress up in something besides a re-purposed pirate dress. I've been looking around on the web for garb ideas, and I really like the style of this Venetian dress by Likely Lotus, not least because it's different looking from the usual skirt and bodice combo. However, that also has me wondering. Even though it says it's based on Lorenzo Lotto's paintings, I haven't seen any side splits in the paintings I've found during an admittedly not-hugely-thorough image search (though I did learn that Venice was apparently the hippie Portland of the Renaissance when it came to clothes).

Is the dress plausibly historical? The Des Moines Renfaire is not exactly the SCA when it comes to costume accuracy (and I love it for that), but I'd like to be at least plausible.

in the cases where they had side split skirts, the skirt belonged to an elaborate overdress or overskirt worn on top of a (usually) plainer underdress. But that style is closer to Carpaccio than Lorenzo Lotto. The latter features a heavier High Renaissance style, with square necklines, stiffened bodices and larger sleeves. Carpaccio features a lighter style often seen with rounded necklines and tighter fitted slashed sleeves:

The lady in golden/sea green dress has a split in the side:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/carpaccio1480s.jpg

The woman in red wears a red overdress with side split. She's draped it up in the waist:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/vcarpaccio1504-08bergamo.jpg

Another side split dress. I suspect we see the actual chemise, but it might be a white, light underdress too. The red think over her right shoulder is a mantle (cloak of sorts) worn "all' antica", much in vogue in the Renaissance:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/carpaccioven.jpg


The dress in your link is definitely plausible. The U neckline, the sleeves and the side lacing isn't really Venetian. But as such the general lines, colours and decorations are good. I would consider either wearing a decorated underskirt or to sew up the side split to make it even more convincing, and to add cool accessories. But you'd be welcome at any faire with it!

If you want to take a closer look at the Venetian fashion of the 16th century, this gallery has around 400 portraits and closeup of paintings, sorted by style. Go nuts...

http://aneafiles.webs.com/renaissancegallery/veneto.html

[Sunshine]

Ooh, I hadn't found that gallery yet! And I wouldn't have even realized those were splits if you hadn't called them out. "Reading" the fashion in paintings is just not something I'm used to yet.

I do have plans for cool accessories! My aunt makes lace jewelery, so while it might not be exactly period to have earrings and a necklace made of lace, they're really pretty and plausibly (there's the word again) Venetian, if I want to keep with that theme. I'm thinking of making some trim myself to use with the dress, too, but my tatting isn't remotely as neat as hers.

Actually, at this point with all the modifications I now have in mind (underskirt, extra trim, messing with the length of the splits), I think I'll probably try sewing something up myself instead of buying. Then I can change the sleeves and color, too. I hope Likely Lotus won't mind me using their dress as inspiration.