Possible project for next year

[isabelladangelo]

The gypsies had only *just* entered Scotland by the 16th C and I think that was pretty late.  They were well known in Italy by that same point - hence the amount of paintings on Gypsies by Italian artists.  The more I look at the upper shoulder/arm of that orange fabric and what looks like a separate black and white tie, the more I think what we are really seeing is the orange fabric being sewn together with a lace insertion and there is just a black undergarment beneath that for contrast.

[Dinobabe]

Does anyone think the man behind him may be a male gypsy, distracting the mark from the child picking his pocket?? I need to figure out how to dress my husband to be my counterpart and am seeing very few examples. I'm going to investigate the paintings more closely.

I think he's saying "Keep an eye on them, they could be thieves." 

Agreed, that's why I was leaning more towards Roma in England--I can do English peasant lol! But, as Isabella pointed out, the Spada painting is Italian (I think she's right about that under-dress) and I don't know if I'm up to learning a whole different region.  I can still do it, I'll just have to abandon a repro of the Spada gypsy, which I *really* don't want to do because it's *so* very pretty. I still feel the skirt could be interpreted as just a basic Ren skirt, but that sleeve scares the crap out of me; and I believe that chemise has a yoke with blackwork on it (along the top of the shoulder down to the sleeve), which I *really* can't do. And I'm convinced the outside of the collar is a completely different fabric, it's not embroidered, but I can't figure out *what* it's made of!! I'm driving myself crazy!

The gypsies would adopt clothing styles (hand me downs, etc.) from whatever region they were traveling in.  I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have several different styles in the clothing they wore.  If they really liked something, even if it was from a different region or fashion period they probably would have worn it anyway.  They were already outcasts so why not!  lol

My Roma character has history in France but now lives in Scotland, her father is English, and is married to a Scotsman privateer.  She journey's with him on his sea travels.  So I am basically a Roma pirate!  I like the idea of having the options.

[Wickedvox]

The gypsies had only *just* entered Scotland by the 16th C and I think that was pretty late.  They were well known in Italy by that same point - hence the amount of paintings on Gypsies by Italian artists.  The more I look at the upper shoulder/arm of that orange fabric and what looks like a separate black and white tie, the more I think what we are really seeing is the orange fabric being sewn together with a lace insertion and there is just a black undergarment beneath that for contrast.

I think I'm going to have to do some Italian research Not sure how I feel about that. Although, I do think what you said earlier about fashion changing slowly (with the tapestry) can support an English Roma rationale, I know it can't support the Spada painting.
I'm trying to picture what you mean, but it's not coming together. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying the edges of the blanket are sewn together by a lace insertion--I'm not so sure about that, I haven't seen any examples of blankets being *sewn* at the shoulder. Can you give me an example?

Dinobabe--That could be! Perspective is everything!
I'm not going to create an extensive back-story for my piece, but that's very creative of you! 

[Wickedvox]

I'm starting to put 2+2 together and get 5 lol. I found some examples post-dating 1610 by about 20-30 years of Italian dress and I have some ideas. Could the Spada painting woman be wearing a simple gamurra with a ginorea over it and *that* would explain the shoulder decoration? If so, why can't it be seen at floor level? Option 2: Is it the Italian version of a partlet over a standard camicia under a gamurra with attached sleeves? Here's some more eye-candy:
look how the giornea lies on her shoulder:


check out the puffy sleeve attached to the gamurra, that could be that wierd trim at the top of the sleeve:


*this* I think could be a perfect example of what's going on up top, right up to the collar:


and Isabella, I think this may have been what you were hinting at earlier--it looks like a decoritive, stretch, *mesh* bodice cover--I've *never* seen that before!


This I think is the coup de grace for the case of camicia, gamurra, and partlet argument:


Okay, lay it on me, what say you??

[isabelladangelo]

All of those are a lot earlier than 20+/- 1614.   The first one is about 1490, I think, and the last one is 1530's/40's.   

First, Italian research sites:

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/
http://aneafiles.webs.com/articles.html

Both focus on the 16th c.  The sleeves in the painting are very much 17th c (to the point I think it might even be later than the 1610's date.)  However, it might help.

Lace insertion:
http://daughterofthebull.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html

I think that we are seeing a seam with lace in it.  Don't forget, this could be one of those "The artist thought this would look cool and it's totally fantastical" things.  There are a lot.

That being said, I'm going to say that what we are seeing with those orange and black bands on what looks to be flimsy fabric is not a skirt - but an apron.  This makes a lot of sense when you start looking outside of Italy to Greece or any of the islands and what they were wearing.   Add this with the loose dress I posted earlier and this starts to look reasonable.   Do you have the book Clothing of the Renaissance World?  It's big and not cheap but it well worth it for research. 

[isabelladangelo]

I found something that made me change my mind a bit.  This is what I believe she is wearing beneath the drape:
http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/271938/Greek-School-17th-century/Female-costume-from-Kriti?search_context={%22url%22%3A%22\%2Fsearch\%2Fartist\%2FGreek-School-17th-century\%2F7061%3Flang%3Den-US%22%2C%22num_results%22%3A%2214%22%2C%22search_type%22%3A%22creator_assets%22%2C%22creator_id%22%3A%227061%22%2C%22item_index%22%3A9}

This is a gorgeous example of 17th C Greek dress.  Although the embroidery and colors changed over time, the basic styling did not for a very long time in Eastern Europe (I've seen evidence for similar styles from Russia all the way down to Greece).  The black & white are the straps, the flimsy stuff is the overdress, and the underdress is the Indian print orange.   The Roma came through Greece in the 14th C (I think it was about then) a few hundred years after their diaspora from India (10th C?).  Although the regions did affect their clothing choices a bit, there is also a reason we can easily identify who is Roma and who isn't in these paintings.  ;-)  We know that many contemporary writers (16th C, Italian) commented that the ladies went around in their chemises or wore a loose gown - which is exactly what the Greek dress looks like. 

[Wickedvox]

All of those are a lot earlier than 20+/- 1614.   The first one is about 1490, I think, and the last one is 1530's/40's.   

First, Italian research sites:

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/
http://aneafiles.webs.com/articles.html

Both focus on the 16th c.  The sleeves in the painting are very much 17th c (to the point I think it might even be later than the 1610's date.)  However, it might help.

Lace insertion:
http://daughterofthebull.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html

I think that we are seeing a seam with lace in it.  Don't forget, this could be one of those "The artist thought this would look cool and it's totally fantastical" things.  There are a lot.

That being said, I'm going to say that what we are seeing with those orange and black bands on what looks to be flimsy fabric is not a skirt - but an apron.  This makes a lot of sense when you start looking outside of Italy to Greece or any of the islands and what they were wearing.   Add this with the loose dress I posted earlier and this starts to look reasonable.   Do you have the book Clothing of the Renaissance World?  It's big and not cheap but it well worth it for research. 

BAAAH! I thought I got it right this time  I got most of those pics from realm of venus, they were in the 1540-69 range; I thought I included the one from 1590-1610 too, but I didn't.
Of course I know our own Anea's site She's so amazing.
So what is that piece called that's like a partlet?
Ahhhhh...I see what you're saying about the skirt. I've never seen an apron with guards  But again, you probably know better than I.
I don't have that book, I'll see if I can find it at one of our local libraries.
I suppose it *can* be a lace insertion, but I don't want it to be  I don't think I'll even have the research on this done before next summer, let alone the outfit  WIP I guess.

[Wickedvox]

I found something that made me change my mind a bit.  This is what I believe she is wearing beneath the drape:
http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/271938/Greek-School-17th-century/Female-costume-from-Kriti?search_context={%22url%22%3A%22\%2Fsearch\%2Fartist\%2FGreek-School-17th-century\%2F7061%3Flang%3Den-US%22%2C%22num_results%22%3A%2214%22%2C%22search_type%22%3A%22creator_assets%22%2C%22creator_id%22%3A%227061%22%2C%22item_index%22%3A9}

This is a gorgeous example of 17th C Greek dress.  Although the embroidery and colors changed over time, the basic styling did not for a very long time in Eastern Europe (I've seen evidence for similar styles from Russia all the way down to Greece).  The black & white are the straps, the flimsy stuff is the overdress, and the underdress is the Indian print orange.   The Roma came through Greece in the 14th C (I think it was about then) a few hundred years after their diaspora from India (10th C?).  Although the regions did affect their clothing choices a bit, there is also a reason we can easily identify who is Roma and who isn't in these paintings.  ;-)  We know that many contemporary writers (16th C, Italian) commented that the ladies went around in their chemises or wore a loose gown - which is exactly what the Greek dress looks like. 

That *is* interesting, isn't it? I'll have to download that pic and take a better look at it. You think those sleeves could fit under the poofy sleeves? Or do you think it *is* those sleeves? I often wonder how the Indian origins influence that outfit, and that could be it!

I was looking at Anea's articles and the pics of extant camicias; do you think those heavily embroidered sleeves--the way they're set into the camicia forms the shoulder and goes up to the collar--could be a simple explanation as to that decoration I can't figure out? It almost seemed like a "duh!" moment when I looked at it lol, but mayhaps it's not so simple 

You are helping me *so* much Isabella, I'd send you chocolates if I knew your address lol! Thanks again for the time and energy you're putting into this just to help lil' ol' me 

[Wickedvox]

Check *this* out!

http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2007/Bess-Partlet.jpg

It's got the similar collar to my gypsy, the lace insertion you were talking about, *and* it's a partlet. It was done by Bess Chivers and is based on a painting of Eleanora de Toledo time period 1580's-90's. What do you think of the idea? I'd have to buy the insertion and attach it to fabric--I have no skills to create it.

[isabelladangelo]

:-)   I like helping with researching.  I'm traveling right now so I won't be able to do quite as much for a couple of weeks.  My thoughts are that the sleeves are a seperate sleeve that just go over the chemise sleeve of the Greek dress - just like they would in an Italian style.   The sleeve ties to the strap of the overdress, which is why we see that black and white "stripe" go up the shoulder to the strap.  I thought the Greek dress was terribly interesting and it would explain a lot about what we are seeing in the painting.   

[Wickedvox]

:-)   I like helping with researching.  I'm traveling right now so I won't be able to do quite as much for a couple of weeks.  My thoughts are that the sleeves are a seperate sleeve that just go over the chemise sleeve of the Greek dress - just like they would in an Italian style.   The sleeve ties to the strap of the overdress, which is why we see that black and white "stripe" go up the shoulder to the strap.  I thought the Greek dress was terribly interesting and it would explain a lot about what we are seeing in the painting.  

Yeah, school is going to kick my butt the next few weeks, so me too.

Yeah, for sure, separate sleeves. I'm just not sure what I think about those straps. I like how the bottom falls, and them hem length. Hmmm...I must ponder. I wish I had a color printer so I can print this stuff out and compare and compile.

And I can't figure out how to register with the site--provided non-academics can--ergo I can't get a *really* good download to zoom in on. Is the yoke smocked?? Is it gathered or cartridge pleated to the yoke?

[gem]

Ok, two quick things:

1.) To enlarge the image: Hit Ctl and + simultaneously, and everything on the screen will get larger. Keep going until the picture is big enough. Then just do a screen grab. If you have Windows 7, you have a tool called "Snip" that makes this easy.

2. Color printer! Our color printer is a fantastic Canon inkjet that we bought at Walmart for $35! Yes, thirty-five! Not only was it ridiculously affordable, it's the best color printer we've had in about 10 years.

There. All your problems solved.  LOL

[Wickedvox]

Ok, two quick things:

1.) To enlarge the image: Hit Ctl and + simultaneously, and everything on the screen will get larger. Keep going until the picture is big enough. Then just do a screen grab. If you have Windows 7, you have a tool called "Snip" that makes this easy.

2. Color printer! Our color printer is a fantastic Canon inkjet that we bought at Walmart for $35! Yes, thirty-five! Not only was it ridiculously affordable, it's the best color printer we've had in about 10 years.

There. All your problems solved.  LOL

BRILLIANT! Gem you can't ever leave my life, I'd be lost and *really* irritable* without you around.

[Wickedvox]

Do you think this chemise is made like the Italian camicia, in that the sleeves are gathered into the collar?

I'm pretty sure this is what I'll use if that's how it's constructed, because then I can embroider the sleeves to get that patterned look on the shoulders *and* reconstruct that collar.

[Kate XXXXXX]

Yes, looks like it...

It'll be lovely.