Tudor Gown Adventure

[Raelyn Fey]

After having a great second year at ORen, I have decided being a peasant or pirate has been fun, but I'd like to have a large gown and feel like a princess. The Tudor gown on E-Bay I fell in love with is now out of stock. Not having $500 to drop on a ready made or custom gown of someone else's design, this means I must make my own. My mom and I have basic sewing skills, she has a new sewing machine and a surger, and I have no actual deadline. I think these are in our favor. However, this is a huge venture, so I'll be posting here off and on to keep things in order and ask for help when needed.

9/30/13
We're starting with this pattern from Simplicity.
It looks like a great first pattern with full instructions, so we're not going in blind. The plan is to buy the fabric in bulk as I have money. My first question, however, is what do I wear under this without spending a fortune on 'period accurate' underthings? I'm not a busty person, but I have some to hold up. A regular bra isn't going to fit under this dress. Will the gown have enough support, or do I need to find something to go under it?

[isabelladangelo]

First, you should never ever have to wear a bra with a bodice.  If you do, the bodice is too big. 

Second, Simplicity made the pair of bodies and farthingale pattern 2621 just to go under this dress.  The simplicity site appears to be down right now but you can see it here:


And read reviews here:
http://sewing.patternreview.com/patterns/29388

With this Henrican Tudor dress pattern, ignore the fabric suggestions.  Go with cotton velvet, uncut cord, cotton damask/jacquard/brocades, or even wools if you end up wanting a more middle class look.  Silk works well for the forepart, sleeves, and sleeve lining but not the actual dress unless it's a silk brocade. 

As with any pattern, mock ups are essential.   Try making one out of a heavy fabric (duck cloth or even jean since it's just a mock up) to see if it will hold you appropriately or not. 

With Simplicity patterns, I tend to go at least two sizes down from their recommended size - go with your jean size and not what they say on the pattern. 

[Raelyn Fey]

We were definitely planning to make a mock up or two to make sure we had it right before making the real thing. Thanks for confirming that. Is there anything modern I can use under the gown instead of the corset or is that really the only way to go? I'm not so confident of my skills making the under clothes and have them actually function properly.

As far as fabric goes, I'm pretty in love with this cotton velveteen fabric. Do you think it would be alright for the main part of the gown? Fabric Most of what you listed I was considering for fabric already, so I'm glad I was on the right track.

[isabelladangelo]

The pair of bodies (the word corset is first seen in the very late 18th century and typically used with the hourglass shape made famous in the Victorian era) is the only way to get the correct shape.  This style looks more complicated than it really is.  It's more time consuming than anything else.  I'd ignore the channel markings on the pattern and use the actual boning you plan on using as a guide.  Ie, if you are using duct ties, get out a duct tie and just start marking the fabric using the duct tie's width as your guide.  All the channels should be vertical for the most part.  Reed and even cording are period correct but so is whalebone.  Look up the Effigy Stays for a TON of information on period correct pairs of bodies. 

Yes, the raspberry cotton velveteen is perfect for this style of dress.  I've actually used that color before to create a similar styled gown:

[gem]

That raspberry velveteen is lovely, and Renaissance Fabrics are really lovely to work with. I've ordered from her several times.

I would HIGHLY recommend you go with the S2621 corset pattern--first and foremost because it's a great pattern! It's well drafted, easy to follow, highly adaptable, and most important: gives you the proper shape for the gown you'll wear over it. And if you make it from something pretty, that's a bonus piece you can add to your collection. My review of the pattern should be one of the ones Isabella linked to.

Sewing an Elizabethan-era corset is not difficult--you just need to be able to sew a lot of straight lines, and it's a great opportunity to learn/practice binding. I adore mine, and it's been going strong for four years now!

[Raelyn Fey]

What would you suggest making it from?

[gem]

Mine is made from linen damask, a lucky find at the time, but now that merchant has tons! This one looks kind of similar (weight-wise) to mine. They also do free swatches, and the weights of their damask vary a lot (from 6.5 oz to 10 oz), so the swatch service is worth it, just to make sure you get something that's not *too* stiff. I also really like this one. Just click on "jacquard" to see all the options.

Really, you want a natural fiber fabric that's fairly heavy in weight with a crisp hand and a smooth finish. Look at Elizabethan corsets on etsy, for good ideas.

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

When one is doing anything Period, wearing the correct Undergarments works best.  For Period patterns are NOT designed for Modern bodies.

[Kate XXXXXX]

What they said.  Give yourself lots of time and permission to make mistakes!

But most of all, treat it as an adventure and HAVE FUN!

[DonaCatalina]

For making the pair of bodies, or corset, I would suggest down proof ticking for the inner layer. It is a dense weave that will prevent the bones from eating through the fabric at the ends.
Corset Coutil is what a lot of the professionals use; but it is more expensive than ticking for the same basic job. You can make the outer layer out of something pretty like a linen or cotton damask.

For the dress itself, please use as much cotton and silk as you can afford. The weight of a court gown can leave you hot and tired if made from synthetic fabrics such as polyester velvet.

[Raelyn Fey]

Thank you for replying so quickly. Now I know why these costumes cost hundreds of dollars to buy. I was hoping to save money by making it, but the cost is very quickly adding up. Hopefully making it slowly over a year or two will help ease the pain of spending so much money haha. I'm really not looking forward to making the under garments. Like I said before, my mom and I have basic sewing skills. We've never touched anything like this before, so we're a tad intimidated.

[Rowan MacD]

  This may seem like a silly point, so forgive me if I am pointing out the obvious here-but having been a very newbie sewer not too far back, it's one of the things experienced seamstresses seem to assume everybody knows:
  When you make a mock up, you don't have to make the entire dress in muslin;    only the parts that will need to be altered.   
   I only make a mock up of the bodice.  Sans sleeves, unless those will be fitted, which I have yet to run into since my sleeves are removable.
   Make sure the muslin is fitted over all the undergarments you will be wearing under it (chemise and corset).  This is important.  You cannot wear this style gown with out the correct foundation garments-it will look profoundly wrong, and you want the bodice to fit smoothly, without pulls and creases over your corset, like a second skin. 
   Tudor undergarments and gowns of this period did not have princess seams, they squashed the torso into a cylindrical shape to achieve the period look, and this squashing was done using the corset (pair of bodies), not the bodice.  The bodice should fit snugly over the corset, with out pulling.  You can see this effect in Isabella's picture above.
    If you can achieve a perfectly fitted bodice, with the neckline precisely where it should be without gaping, you've done 90% of the work toward making the gown look professionally made (which is why most of the ready made gowns online don't)
   The skirt really only needs hemming, which you do after you make the garment out of fashion fabric.

[Kate XXXXXX]

Bodices tend to fit differently with the weight of a skirt, so if the skirt is sewn to the bodice in the final garment, sew a skirt on!  Same goes for sleeves...  Especially if they are Big Heavy Sleeves!  They can change the way the shoulders sit on a bodice very easily.  But be careful: some patterns are VERY SKIMPY in the sleeve department!  Measure you bicep, add an inch or two for ease, and compare that with the sleeve pattern.  You may need to add a fair bit!  It's one of the places we do the most pattern adjustment on fitting, even when we draft our own patterns, as arms can be very different in real life from your pattern!

You don't have to toile skirts and wide sleeves: you can just make those bit up and attach them to the boidice toile, but if they are very heavy, you might want to use a double layer of fabric for the bodice toile.

And if the bodice is boned, bone the toile!  You can recycle the bones for the real thing: just cut them a little over long and trim them down later.

[Rowan MacD]

   I have this pattern, though I have never used it.
   What Kate says is correct-this pattern calls for an attached skirt, which certainly would effect the 'hang' of the bodice.  Same with those heavy sleeves.

  I do have this style dress, though I was not the one who made it.
  The seamstress asked for quite a few measurements, but she was not present to fit it to me. 
   Though it fits reasonably well, if I had been able to try it on before it was finished I would have asked that she not make the neck line quite so wide- the shoulders of the dress are only about 1" in from the ends of my shoulder.    The sleeves are very heavy, mine are made from velveteen with a heavy satin cuff with brocade under sleeves, and they tend to pull the shoulders of the dress off of my shoulder if the bodice is the least bit loose (it laces in the back). I ended up pinning the shoulders of the bodice in place onto my chemise while I was wearing it. 
 

[DonaCatalina]

To be honest, by the time I bought all the pieces for the latest corset that I made, I could have gotten one from Sofi's for about the same amount of money.
BUT the corset I made is fitted for me, not made by someone 1200 miles away from measurements.

Don't worry if it takes time. I have been working on my latest dress for nearly two years.
And having made attached and separate skirts, I prefer attached. The weight of the skirts tend to lead to 'gaposis' when you have been in garb for 8 hours. And if you don't heavily bone the front of your bodice, the center point tends to curl up.

[Rowan MacD]

To be honest, by the time I bought all the pieces for the latest corset that I made, I could have gotten one from Sofi's for about the same amount of money.
BUT the corset I made is fitted for me, not made by someone 1200 miles away from measurements.

I dont' think I will ever buy another ready made corset online, unless it is for outer costume.
   My last corset was a Sofi-While it was very well boned and constructed, my only complaint was that it was very long in the front.  Even the models she uses on the website illustrate this issue.

http://www.sofisstitches.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=154

   It's not a bad corset, just not one you want to use as an undergarment unless you are very long waisted (she features this same corset in her 'underpinnings' page)

http://www.sofisstitches.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=175 

I think I measured the wooden front busk at 13-14", which put it about 2-3"  above mid bust, and that with the busk bottom point matching the bottom point of my un-shortened MA Elizabethan dress bodice.   It stuck out beyond the top of the bodice by 1-2".
   A proper pair of bodies is supposed to top out about armpit level.
  I recently had Lady Kathleen make me a very comfortable version I will be using for many years. 

[Raelyn Fey]

Wow. This is certainly a lot to take in. Thanks everyone for the pointers.

[Orphena]

Good for you for taking on this project! Speaking from experience, there is no greater thrill than being able to tell someone that, yes, you did make what you are wearing!

Make the chemise first. 100% cotton or 100% linen are my personal favourites. Anything with poly will not breathe as well. The chemise can be fancy if you like, but honestly, all of mine are very plain, and no one seems to notice that. If you tend to go to faire for a whole weekend, make 2 right away.

Once you have the chemise, then tackle the corset. It is the most intimidating, but once you have a well fitting corset, you'll understand the bodice so much better. Make a complete mockup, bone it, and take pictures. We'll help you with the problem areas! For the mockup (and I've not yet looked closely at the parrern), you can either do 2 layers with the boning sandwiched inside, or one layer of stiffer fabric (I use cotton shoe canvas!) with boning channels made using wide seam binding.

Farthingale happens next, and THEN the gown. Farthingale could be done before the corset if you want to improve your skills - it makes no difference! 

We will help you! This is a great community who have done this before!

[Rowan MacD]

  You will find all the advice you need here!  Pictures are very helpful if you can post them with your question.

Advice:  Make your own Bumroll.  They can be made in under an hour, from scraps, with a total cost of about $2.00 (including stuffing).  You don't even need a pattern, though they come with most Tudor gown patterns, and I haven't found a single one online under $30.00.   Even $10.00 is too much for such a simple thing.

Farthingales:  After pricing the supplies,  you may be better off buying one ready made online. 
   I may eventually make one (I have the MA pattern) but when I realized I didn't have any materials on hand that I could use for this, and the hoop stiffeners nearly always have to be ordered online, I went with Sofi's.   I paid $60.00 for mine and I don't regret it.   The skirt is 100% cotton and the hoops are easily removable for laundering. The waist is drawstring, and one size fits up to about a 40" waist. 
  Hints: Purchase one with at least 5 hoops about 6" apart, not much more than that, and make sure it's long enough. 
   Check the dress  pattern requirements to be sure you are getting the correct circumference. You can fluff out a too small Farthingale with petticoats or in some cases, crinolines; but you can buy a hoop skirt that is too big.  There are some civil war sites who sell the huge ones for the antebellum ball gowns, so make sure you get the right dimensions for the Henrican and Tudor gowns. 
  When you wear the overskirt, you should not be able to detect the farthingale.     Hoops should not be visible (like ribs on a starved horse) from the outside of the over skirt or under the forepart.  If the outer skirt  fabric is not thick enough to hide the hoops,  wear an extra petticoat.
   The farthingale also needs to be long enough to support the bottom edge of the dress hem without breaking the vertical line of the skirt.  6" of hem dangling off the bottom hoop looks sloppy.  It should be almost the same length as your overskirt, not 1/2 way up your calf.
   I have been guilty of all of the above in the past, but learned to wear the gowns correctly.   It makes a world of difference.


   

[CalliopeCC]

My best corset making tool is a dritz see thru ruler with line guides - it has half inch and 3/5 inch line guides in the middle of it. 

I don't have a picture of it, but if you shop the notions aisle, you're bound to see it in the measuring tools. It's thick plastic ruler with lines cut in it lengthwise.

Using the line guides on this ruler and an invisible ink pen, you can quickly draw out your boning channels.

TIP - draw your channels, then sew them up...but don't put the bones in until you've sewn ALL of your channel lines. You may even draw more than you think you might use, and choose not to fill all of them with boning. Better to not use them all than to have to go back and add more once you've got all the bones in and almost done with the piece.

Well, yes....I know that tip sounds really obvious, but as a novice seamstress, my first corset was a nightmare because I was trying to sew each bone into the corset one at a time. What did I know back them? 

Oh, those dark days before the RF board was here to rescue all the budding seamstresses from doing really stupid stuff.   

[stonebiscuit]

My best corset making tool is a dritz see thru ruler with line guides - it has half inch and 3/5 inch line guides in the middle of it. 

This this this! I love this tool and use it for just about everything.

I don't know if this has been covered, but make your boning channels just an eeensy bit bigger than you think you need them to be. There's nothing more frustrating than sewing all those beautiful channels and then discovering you can't get the *#%(%$*%@Y^$#(@#&%^& bones in them!

[gem]

Is this the one?



Looks handy!!

[Rowan MacD]

^^on my shopping list^^^

Oh, those dark days before the RF board was here to rescue all the budding seamstresses from doing really stupid stuff.   

Amen.  It would have saved me another gowns' worth of money and materials.


Stonebisquit-I hear you.  Of every 5 channels I sew there are always one (or two) that are too small.  Don't know how that happens.  I use the same duct tie boning in all the channels, and I swear I use the same measurements....

[isabelladangelo]

^^on my shopping list^^^

Stonebisquit-I hear you.  Of every 5 channels I sew there are always one (or two) that are too small.  Don't know how that happens.  I use the same duct tie boning in all the channels, and I swear I use the same measurements....

It's because you need to add a small amount of room for the volume.   If you just trace exactly on either side, the duct tie, you are only getting width, not height.  Duct ties tend to be a bit thick as we all know.  :-)  Therefore, as you are putting the duct ties into the channels, the fabric stretch to cover them - but can only stretch so far.  Hence, you'll have some that are "too small" - when, really, if you make the channels just a hint wider so as to include the height, they'd all be fine. 

[CalliopeCC]

Is this the one?



Looks handy!!

Yes Indeedy!  I love that thing...

I tend to alternate between using the 1/2 inch metal boning and 1/2 inch plastic cable ties, so I use the 5/8 inch slots - Like Stonebiscuit said -- the channel needs a little ease so the boning can be inserted easily. 

I have made this error too... and much cusssing insued.

Just remember when you use the invisible pen, you have to sew your channells the same day...the ink is gone in 12 hours (or less). I got sidetracked once, and didn't get back to the corset till the next day, and ended up having to draw all my lines again.    of course, with this tool, making lines takes NO TIME at all.