Author Topic: police  (Read 20736 times)

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Offline beeboy

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Re: police
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2008, 01:29:07 PM »
I literally travel with just a backpack, and a blanket/pillow belted together

not even a car

so all this trunk stuff don't really help, as well as only carrying it en route to faire

Offline Valiss

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Re: police
« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2008, 01:37:01 PM »
One of our guild members rides his motorcycle to faire with his swords strapped his back.  He hasn't gotten hassled about it yet, and there really isn't anywhere else to put them.

Offline Cobaltblu

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Re: police
« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2008, 02:05:14 PM »
I literally travel with just a backpack, and a blanket/pillow belted together

not even a car

so all this trunk stuff don't really help, as well as only carrying it en route to faire

That is unfortunate since most police will see a sword and dagger on a backpacking hitchhiker and think you are some serial killer...j/k ;D

I would just put them in a sheath and peace-tied and keep them inside the backpack and if anyone hassles you just ask them why they are wasting their time harassing someone who attends renaissance festivals instead of preventing a real crime which actually has a victim somewhere.

We have far too many laws in this country making all sorts of things "illegal".  Our government shouldn't make talking on a cell phone in a car, or owning a 6" knife, or heaven forbid owning a sword illegal...and work on catching people who commit real crimes that affect other people or society.  Our country (USA) was formed so that people can live their lives free from oppression...and now people can be arrested for merely possessing a knife which is "too long" inside their own home.

If someone asked our founding fathers what they thought about a law which made a 6 inch knife or sword illegal they would laugh at them and say it was ridiculous.  Just because our modern society has been trained to be wimps who can't defend themselves (or do not have the intestinal fortitude to) doesn't mean anything which theoretically could be used to harm someone should be illegal.

If someone uses a knife or sword in a crime or threatens someone with them or is about to use them in a crime...fine...arrest them and charge them with a crime...but there is no reason they should be made illegal merely to possess.

I am not anti-law enforcement but I am anti-ridiculous laws.  I don't know how police officers could work every day having to enforce all sorts of ridiculous laws (but I give them credit for finding the inner strength to do so)...if it was me I would probably be fired on the first day for being too lenient and only enforcing the laws I agreed with.

Regards,

CB
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Offline beeboy

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Re: police
« Reply #33 on: July 15, 2008, 02:34:04 PM »
yeah it stays sheathed and peace tied

Offline Just Randall

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Re: police
« Reply #34 on: July 15, 2008, 06:52:20 PM »
I would just put them in a sheath and peace-tied and keep them inside the backpack and if anyone hassles you just ask them why they are wasting their time harassing someone who attends renaissance festivals instead of preventing a real crime which actually has a victim somewhere.

Cops call this type of response "Being a Smartass" and it is a sure fire way to get arrested, and charged with every offense that the cop can find. Great advice to give, CB.

My advice, for what it's worth, is to find a cop, explain your situation, and ask what the law is in regards to your situation. If the cop knows that you're at least trying to obey the law, they'll usually help you in any way they can.

My other suggestion, Go to the post office, find out if you can legally send those items in the mail, and if you can, send them to yourself at your destination "General Delivery".
Mediocrity is the refuge of the unimaginative...

Offline Tipsy Gypsy

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Re: police
« Reply #35 on: July 15, 2008, 07:37:23 PM »

Cops call this type of response "Being a Smartass" and it is a sure fire way to get arrested, and charged with every offense that the cop can find.

Or as the cops I know call it, a "P.O.P. offense (pissin' of da po-lice)".
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Offline Cobaltblu

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Re: police
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2008, 10:24:17 AM »
I was not suggesting to start yelling at a police officer who might ask a question about your sword or dagger, because that would be rude...what I said is that if anyone "hassles" you to give them a piece of your mind.  In my opinion "hassling" someone over having a sword or dagger they are transporting to a renaissance festival is ridiculous and I would assume most people on this forum would agree.

Regards,

CB
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Offline Tipsy Gypsy

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Re: police
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2008, 11:45:31 AM »
Ridiculous, probably, but responding by "giving them a piece of your mind" can be viewed as aggressive behavior, and may only serve to escalate a situation. Police deal with a metric buttload of attitude every day from people who feel they're being hassled. One more will not make anyone's day better. Far more beneficial to meet potential hassling with a calm and polite demeanor. You could be the person who makes the difference in the outcome of his day- and certainly yours!- and maybe in how he/she views faire folk as a whole.
"It's just water, officer, I swear. And yeast. And a little honey. How the alcohol got in, I have no idea!"

Offline Valiss

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Re: police
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2008, 11:53:58 AM »
Ridiculous, probably, but responding by "giving them a piece of your mind" can be viewed as aggressive behavior, and may only serve to escalate a situation. Police deal with a metric buttload of attitude every day from people who feel they're being hassled. One more will not make anyone's day better. Far more beneficial to meet potential hassling with a calm and polite demeanor. You could be the person who makes the difference in the outcome of his day- and certainly yours!- and maybe in how he/she views faire folk as a whole.

I *think* CB is trying to make a distinction between cooperating with authorities and knowing your rights.

Offline Cobaltblu

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Re: police
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2008, 12:08:12 PM »
I partly meant that if someone hassled you about having something perfectly legal...then give them a piece of your mind and give them the finger.

However on the other hand if it was illegal I would apologize and explain I was going to a faire and if they still pestered me about it (after seeing I was merely bringing it to a renaissance faire) I would give them a piece of my mind.  Maybe they would confiscate it or not, who knows...but I would still explain that it is ridiculous to hassle a rennie about a sword they have because they are attending a renaissance faire.

Regards,

CB

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Offline BLAKDUKE

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Re: police
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2008, 01:57:00 PM »
A polite answer should be the best remedy, however I question the validity of such a question from any police officer.  Blades are not illegal and no license is needed to carry them except if you are on a public street and they are concealed, I believe the legal length is 4", such as a pocket knife.  Further I know of no way to hide a 40' hand and a half battle sword,
but if it is in your trunk then without probable cause he has no right to invade there-in.  Of course probable cause is debatable and the gendarme most likely thinks that if he stops you then he has probable cause.  I would check with the local constabulary.    

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Blake Duke, I couldn't help but notice the derogatory tone toward police officers in your post.

My friend you read way more into that material than I had intended and quite frankly I think you prove my point, one should not jump to conclusions.

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 Maybe I am just being overly sensitive

ya think maybe just a bit.

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but just what questions do you consider "valid from any police officer?"

If I am being stopped for speeding  and the officer has every right to ask for my licsense, registration, and insurance info, if he thinks he smells alcohol he could ask if I have been drinking, if he smells cordite then questions about weapons, these are valid.  However if he is having a bad day( and don't tell me they don't have them) and decides he is going to bust somebody for something and stops me because he feels like it then all should ask for are the documents I need to prove I have the right to drive a vehicle.  If he asks to open my trunk so he can look into it to see what he can find, then he has just violated my constitutional rights and I will require him to get a warrent.  If he hauls me to jail so be it, then he is open to false arrest charges.  Now maybe in Michigan police officers can get away with that kind of behavior but not here,  they need probable cause to go searching someones car for whatever.   Of course if he can provide a police call that someone fitting my description and vehicle just committed mass mayhem then I am SOL.  Case in point, several years ago I was stopped in Mass.  I was running with a Calif. lisc. and reg.  I was renting on a month to month basis a furnished apartment in a complex accross the river in Conn. while I was having my house built.  He politely asked for the items and then proceeded to ask where I was living and I told him.  He then proceeded very snottily to tell me that I had to get a Conn/Mass. drivers lisc and register my car there because technically my papers were illegal.  This guy had no authority to invalidate my Calif. papers in any way shape or form and I told him so.  He TOLD me to do it or else.  He handed me back my papers and left.  I went to the police station the following day and talked to the police chief and gave him the officers name and badge number.   The officer was brought in and told to apologize for his manner and his complete misrepresentation of the facts.   It is these kinds of incidents that raise the ire of some people if they feel they are being put upon by the local constabulary.    

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You don't think that it would be important for a police officer to know if there are any weapons in the vehicle he/she just stopped?

In some case yes but not just to fish around to see what can be dredged up just for the hell of it.  Again probable cause, has a report been filed of someone of my description and driving a vehicle like mine, absolutely, but sans that to go fishing around in someones car in the hope that he will find something that will make his day a success, I don't think so.

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 As far as blades not being illegal, you are absolutely wrong.  To make it easier, here is the Michigan law as it pertains to this situation:

- 750.227. (1) A person shall not carry a dagger, dirk,
stiletto, a double-edged non-folding stabbing instrument of
any length, or any dangerous weapon, except a hunting
knife adapted and carried as such, concealed on or about
his or her person, or whether concealed or otherwise in
any vehicle... except in his or her dwelling house [or]
place of business... (3) A person who violates this
section is guilty of a felony...

Again that is Michigan

Quote
The next subsection goes on to say that this law does not apply to a weapon that is being transported in a vehicle as long as it is in a "container" and inaccessible to the driver.  

In regard to your 4" blade pocket knife reference, Michigan law only refers to a 3" blade or any other dangerous weapon being carried for "unlawful intent".  For example, a farmer who is carrying a 4" pocket knife because he uses it to cut open hay bales would be within the law.  A guy carrying the same knife because he thinks he might need to use it in a bar fight would be carrying it with "unlawful intent".

Lastly, your comment, "Of course probable cause is debatable and the [police officer] most likely thinks that if he stops you then he has probable cause", is a stretch.  I am a police officer and for you to make a blanket assumption about what any given police officer thinks during a traffic stop is uninformed and offensive to police officers.  You obviously do not know what "probable cause" is or how an officer develops it; however, I am not inclined to explain probable cause as it pertains to search and seizure here.

Again all of your references pertain to Michigan law only.  The laws of each state are different.  But as I said in the beginning you read way more into this than was necessary.  In no way shape or form was it my attempt to disparage the police although in some cases I have personally witnessed incidents that border on the criminal by police officers.            

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Offline brier patch charlie

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Re: police
« Reply #41 on: July 17, 2008, 12:43:15 AM »
Well Blakeduke and Black Armor, I see both points of view. No, I have never worked in civilian lawenforcment, ie.. city,county, or State. I have worked Military and Federal Law. If and when you roll onto any Federal property there is a small sign that states YOU ARE SUBJECT TO SCEARCH AT ANY TIME. And yes I have searched peoples car's and I have had to charge people with a Federal drug charge because I found a Maryjane seed. Yes seed! Not because I wanted to but because I was told to,  I would have preferred to tell them go clean your car real good and then come back. Do I think what was done to this person was chinkin $#!! yes I do, were they in the wrong yes they were. But PC  is some thing that can work for or against an office, if the PA doesn't think he's got a Strong case and the cop was a hot head who blew something out of proportion Chance's are the charges are going to be dropped. But Blakeduke , weapons are something different, you have to stop and think about officers safety. Thats why you are asked if you have any weapons. And yes there are some offices out there that when they go on duty they strap on the Dirty Hairy syndrome and think they are the best thing to  that has ever come along, and I have seen offices who have stepped over the line and or pushed the envelope right up to the edge. BUT remember this those will be the ones that wind up on front street in the funny pages, who got cought up in there own trick bag. And trust me there are a bunch of them doing time.
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Offline Poldugarian Warrior

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Re: police
« Reply #42 on: July 17, 2008, 08:43:35 AM »
I think if you have full garb on while transportign your steel the cops won't hassle you, and if they do, just treat them with respect and explain your situation and evrythin should be fine. I've been out at locations doing ghosts hunts and some took place in abandoned areas or cemeteries and the cops would come and question us, and for the most part if your honest and don't try to hide anythin they'll let you on your way or just tell you that you can't do that any more or even escort you to what your trying to get to and what not. Actually one officer on one hunt told us to come back during the day at a cemetary and the cops would show us where they believed a secret passage was dug in the cemetary between two obelisks, they had known about the legends and why many people searhed, but he figured we were on the level so he invited us back since we caused them no trouble. We didn't follow it up, but it goes to show some cops can be pretty understanding in certain situations. I'm sorry I had no idea you didn't have a car. That would be a task to carry weaponry without being hassled. Here's another suggestion, maybe carry your steel in a couple guitar cases. That would surely stop them from hasseling you.

Offline Black Armor

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Re: police
« Reply #43 on: July 17, 2008, 01:54:45 PM »
Blake Duke, I only responded to what you had written.  If your post came across as something more than you intended, it could be my fault; however, that was the impression I got when I read it and frankly I think you proved MY point with your second post.  You have obviously had a negative experience with a police officer and that is unfortunate but from your description of the incident, it appears that the problem was with the perceived rude conduct of the officer and not with a violation of any constitutional rights.  If (and maybe you don’t, I’m just saying “if”) you have a negative view of police officers or of how they enforce laws, I realize that I am not going to change your opinion but Bee Boy asked an honest question hoping for an honest answer.  I thought that he deserved an answer that was factual and based on law and not someone’s opinion of how he should act based on negative experiences with an officer or on what someone thinks his “rights” are.  I did look at the Florida law (Bee Boy’s profile said he was from there) and commented on it and also gave a link for him to check the laws in his state.  And yes, I agree that I might be a little hyper- sensitive but I felt compelled to address some of your statements because they are a little misinformed.  Although you stated that, “In no way shape or form was it my attempt to disparage the police”, you finish the sentence with, “I have personally witnessed incidents that border on the criminal by police officers.”  What was the purpose of that statement?  It certainly wasn’t to show police officers in a good light.  And to answer that, I would say if you witnessed an officer do something you think is criminal, report it immediately.  I would not tolerate an officer who I saw do something criminal nor would any of the officers I work with.  In fact, we had an officer at my department who stole $20.00 from a suspect he’d arrested.  We investigated the officer, charged and convicted him criminally and fired him.  Every officer on the department thought that officer got what he deserved because officers like that give the rest of us a bad name.   


You said that I “should not jump to conclusions” but that is pretty hypocritical when you also jump to conclusions and say things like, “the [police officer] most likely thinks that if he stops you then he has probable cause.” You also commented that I was only quoting Michigan law and that laws vary from state to state and that is true but I quoted the Michigan law as an example in response to your comment that, “blades are not illegal and no license is needed to carry them”. I have no idea where you currently reside and you did not specify what state the information you gave applied to but if that statement is true in your location then I’m sure we would all be interested in knowing which state it is.  Were you not also quoting law, or at least giving your version of it in making that statement, as well as the 4” blade statement?  I am sorry but I guess I did assume that you were making reference to a law.   

As far as the probable cause question, it does not vary from state to state.  It is the same throughout the USA because it falls under the fourth amendment of the constitution and is what all officers must abide by.  The examples you gave of questions you thought were valid for an officer to ask you were interesting but the fact is that an officer can ask you anything he/she wants.  They don’t need “probable cause” to ask a question.  If I stop you I can ask you where you’re coming from or going to, if you’ve been drinking, if you have weapons or drugs in the vehicle, what your dog’s name is or what your favorite color is and none of that violates your constitutional rights.  You have the right to answer truthfully, to lie or to not answer at all.  If I ask to search your vehicle or your trunk, you can say “no” that is your right and I wouldn’t be allowed to search it.  If you say no and I search it anyway and I haven’t developed probable cause, NOW your constitutional rights have been violated.  If you agree to let me search it and I find a pound of dope or a machine gun in the trunk, then your on the hook because that’s a legal “consent search”. 

In the end, the issue of carrying faire- related weapons is going to be decided by the law of the state and the individual officer’s discretion.  Personally, if I see someone in costume walking down the shoulder of the road with their sword on their hip during faire season, I might stop and talk to them and might even give them a ride to the faire since my jurisdiction is near the faire.  Technically, it would be illegal (in Michigan) for them to possess the sword on their person but I would use my discretion given the circumstances.  On the other hand, if the guy got all upset because I stopped to talk to him and started ranting about his “rights” and how he thought it was ridiculous that I was “harassing” him, I would probably treat the situation differently.  I am not out to harass anyone or violate anyone’s rights and taking people to jail over things like this only makes more paperwork for me and I am all about less paperwork.

I apologize to everyone for the long post.  I didn’t mean to turn this into a big argument.  Sorry. 
« Last Edit: July 17, 2008, 01:56:10 PM by Black Armor »

Offline BLAKDUKE

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Re: police
« Reply #44 on: July 17, 2008, 03:41:57 PM »
Black Armor:
An awful lot of what you say is true, but again I think you are reading more into it than you really need to.  Just because I have had negative experiences with police at times, does not mean that I have not had positive ones.  If I were to cite them this post would go on to the first star on the right and straight on until morning to make a quote.   I have the utmost respect for law enforcement.  They are one of the few folks that go to work in the morning and are not really sure if they will make it home at night.  I live in the south,  Alabama to be exact and things are done a little different here and not always for the better.  But please do not assume that I am anti-police solely because I cite some negative situations.  Every agency is going to have some bad apples in it and hoepfully none of run into them.  I am sorry if I came accross as anti-police for such was not my intention.
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