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Snarked and Snarking~ How do you handle this?

Started by Cilean, July 23, 2008, 02:52:54 AM

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Cilean

Once? I had my first gown, it was teal & made from Cotton Twill.  I spent 4 months researching, and then with my own 2 hands I created this gown with Spanish sleeves with tons of trim.  Not a bit of the fabrics were H/A, but I thought it was awesome...a young woman asked me for a picture and casually mentioned that my outfit was really nifty was it not?  This person was a Laurel in the SCA, and remember I never said I word to this person.  She told the young lady in no uncertain terms all of the wrongness of my outfit, from the color to the cotton to the trim to the accessories to the hat, how inappropriate it was, how silly I looked in it, and how it did not fit correctly.  Then she waltzed away to rain on someone else's parade!

This happened in the past, believe me? The next time this specific lady saw my work? She had nothing to say, in fact she asked me where I had found the fabrics, and when I said I had embroidered them (Machine and Hand with beading) she was able to say "It was a better effort".  While I could care less for he need for me to find approval, I do have to say her remarks made me a better costumer/garb maker.  It made me strive for H/A and to ask for help in achieving it.

So has anyone else dealt with this sort of thing and how did they handle it?


In fact? Something similar happened recently, I moved to a new section of No Cali, and was in a Joann's and was told to speak with someone who made costumes.  Being eager to meet people with the same fetish, I did in fact go up to this lady and state my name, rank and serial number.  It did not go well, in fact she was "Faire" and since I mentioned I was "SCA"..... I was informed that the "SCA" has no "Standards".  Of course I was Snarky back with "Well I know what we do have, and that is Class" but that was not appropriate for me, I should have taken the moral high ground and just walk away. 

So instead, I am making H/A Clothing in the Scottish Motif of the 1560's for my family and I am going to go to the Faires with these pieces.  All created by me, it is petty but it is making me work towards a goal I needed to do in order to have what I wanted to have done in time. So I am all for making me goal and focus!!!  Yeah Her!

Anyway,

Has someone's Snarkiness helped or hindered you in the past or present? Have you dealt with people who ended up doing better for your Snark?


Cilean

Lady Cilean Stirling
"Looking Good is not an Option, It is a Necessity"
My Motto? Never Pay Retail

nliedel

I was going to join my local SCA, but a laurel made a comment, with demeaning laughter about my garb and I just could not join after that. I wanted to, but... It really hurt me. Not that SCA is hurtful, she was. In fact, I didn't wear garb to faire for years because I felt so stupid.

I now strive for the H/A my wardrobe mistress will allow and not worry about being perfect. My character is more important than my clothes. Although, from the looks of my living room you could never tell.
My journey from mundane to Ren Actor

isabelladangelo

There are good Laurels in the SCA and there are a bad Laurels in the SCA.  I've met both.  What surprises me the most is that the bad Laurels seem to need constant "See how smart I am?" type of praise whereas the good Laurels simply attempt to help those that want to do better (ie "Have you thought of using this instead?").  The good Laurels aren't about making themselves look good, it's about making others look better.

That being said, I'm snarked all the time.   ;) I know perfectly well at least two people snarked me last night and hid their comments behind a cut on their blogs.  It doesn't bother me anymore because I know perfectly well that EVERYONE snarks.  Ever giggled and said "what is she wearing" while at the mall?  Or had to turn your eyes when the overweight hairy guy comes to the beach wearing a speedo?   You've snarked then.

Some people actually need to be snarked.  I know that sounds terribly wrong, but think of Simon on American Idol.   You know that he needs to be snarky to some of those people because they honestly need the bluntness of his remarks.  The same goes for any art medium including garb.

Now, does that mean you should go around snarking everyone to their face every single day?  Absolutely not.  There is no reason to be rude to most people.  The average person will get better with help and not with rudeness.  However, we all know those "spechul snowflakes" that well, need a Simon.  :)

So, some things I've been snarked on:  My research on back lacing; research on bodices/skirts as separates (by a Laurel who now completely believes that a pair of bodies and petticoats existed...two years later and claims it was all her own idea...); my Elizabethan doublet (because I said the cut was from Patterns of Fashion, and it was, but since I didn't do the embellishments like Patterns of Fashion, this person thought it was wrong.  She got corrected.); and probably a few dozen other things.

If anything, when I get snarked, I tend to go out and look for more images and original documents to prove my point.  It might take a while, but it does work.



verymerryseamstress

SNARKING:  It's a behavior that says MUCH more about a person's unpleasant character than their ability to create historically accurate clothing. 

WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT IT?  Ignore it and feel sorry for the people who have to knock everyone else down in order to make themselves feel better.

(To clarify: 'm not referring specifically to anyone in the SCA or anyone with a title.)  Snarking is a behavior, and anyone can do it.  It doesn't matter what group they are in, or what their title is. 

Because I've been the business end of the snark-beating stick for many years, I have a lot to say about this behavior.  I hope you'll bear with me, because being snarked NEVER feels good.  Maybe I'll convince just one snarker to stop this terrible behavior.  It's unlikely, but maybe . . .

As most of you know, I sew as a career.  I have been educated in theatre design (costume and scenic), so often my garments are more artistic than historically accurate.  However, I make what people pay me to make, and I don't tell them what they should or should not wear.  EVER.  If I did, I would have gone out of business long ago. 

I know how to research.  I know how to make historically accurate clothing.  And sometimes I do.  But if I don't, it's nobody's business but mine and the person who paid me to make the clothing.

If I could make anything *I* wanted to make, I would make lots of historically accurate garments.  But the reality is - people who know what is historically accurate also typically know HOW TO MAKE IT.  Which means they aren't going to pay someone else to make it for them and if I waited solely for those customers, I'd go out of business.

That said, I'm not even a little bit picky about sewing what people want to pay me to make.  I'll gladly make it for them and I will *never* judge them for it. 

"You want an Elizabethan gown made from grape leaves and saran wrap?  NO PROBLEM!"  And I am HAPPY to do it.  The more creative, and the more artistic, the more fun I will have making it.  I really DO have the best job on earth.  I love all of my customers and their varied tastes, from the period-correct customers to the Cosplay folks. 

I have been on the receiving end of snarky behavior for almost a decade.  It hurts every time I see/hear it happening.  I will never get used to it.  I've seen a lot of folks hiding behind "locked" journal and newsgroup posts picking on the rest of the world:  Yeah, we find out about it.  People send it to us.  We deal with it.  We move on. 

It's safe to assume that I dislike the act of snarking.  I've never seen it done with any amount of manners or tact, because the whole point of snarking is to do it as underhandedly and as unkindly as possible.  It's never done with manners, it's usually done behind people's backs.

This is what I find comical, though:  Snarkers, if you're going to snark everyone else's clothing, you darn well better be sure that your own wardrobe is flawless.  Because the moment the world sees you selling your polyester gowns and your "faire" Irish overdresses, you're going to labeled a hypocrite.  It's very hard to have any amount of respect for a hypocrite - much less a snarky hypocrite.

I see so many wonderful, talented and knowledgeable stitchers and costumers who DON'T feel it necessary to hide behind newsgroups and closed doors to pick on other people, and THOSE are the people I respect.  Those are the people I go to when I need advice.  Those people would never dole out unsolicited advice, and they would never pick on others. 

Hey, we're all still learning about historical accuracy, and none of us will never know everything.  There's absolutely no need to tell a person that their work is inferior unless they SPECIFICALLY ASK YOU FOR WAYS THEY CAN MAKE IT MORE ACCURATE.  If nobody asks, don't comment.  Spread a little sunshine.  Offer some positivity.  Stop being so mean, because karma will bite you in the butt cheeks, guaranteed.

Now, on the other hand, if you ASK someone for advice on how to be more accurate, and they tell you that your garb needs work, that is NOT snarking.  That's constructive criticism and you asked for it.  Be prepared to hear what needs to be improved and be grateful for the advice.

Also, if you work as a paid faire employee, must wear a "uniform" with historical accuracy requirements and have been told that your wardrobe isn't acceptable, that's not snarking.  That's your employer doing their job, asking you to do yours.  Many companies require uniforms - and if you get paid to be historically accurate, expect criticism if your attire isn't up to snuff.

I'll step off my soapbox.  I'm sure I'll make a lot of enemies from this post, but I'd like those who have been on the receiving end of unkind behavior to know that when others snark you, it's not about you, it's about THEIR shortcomings, not yours.  Don't let them pee on your parade.  You get to choose what works for you.  If it makes YOU happy, that is the ONLY thing that matters.




I'm your very merry seamstress.  How may I help you?

verymerryseamstress

Isabella: I don't think it's fair to say that everyone snarks.  I know a lot of people who don't do it.  I don't find anything enjoyable about picking on other people. 
I'm your very merry seamstress.  How may I help you?

Master James

Quote from: verymerryseamstress on July 23, 2008, 07:50:37 AM
This is what I find comical, though:  Snarkers, if you're going to snark everyone else's clothing, you darn well better be sure that your own wardrobe is flawless.  Because the moment the world sees you selling your polyester gowns and your "faire" Irish overdresses, you're going to labeled a hypocrite.  It's very hard to have any amount of respect for a hypocrite - much less a snarky hypocrite.

I couldn't agree more with you on your entire post but this point specifically!  I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people lay into people about not being H/A standing there in spandex and fairie wings or some such other totally non-H/A garb.  Why people feel that they have to do that is beyond me. 

I design all my garb and my wife makes it and we need to be as H/A as possible because we are on cast as nobles.  So I know quite a bit about what is and isn't H/A but am by no means an expert.  That being said, that is what I want in garb but that is NOT necessarily what others want in their garb so just because someone is into H/A garb doesn't mean that everyone is.  I'll admit I may look at someone's garb and THINK that this or that is wrong with their garb but I would NEVER say it to them.  That is just flat wrong unless they ask me for advice.  Then as you said, its not snarking but constructive critisism.
Why can't reality be more like faire?
Clan M'Crack
RenVet
Royal Order of Landsharks #59
FoMDRF
RFC #51

BLAKDUKE

Snarks(also read garb/costume nazis) really annoy me.  While I do not have a vast knowledge of every last stich, seam, fabric or whatever in order to put the snark in his or her place, I do have one bit of knowledge that could be used, but look first before you use it, because someone may have gone the extra mile to cover this.  Look at their shoes.  If the footwear has a definite right/left design comment(nicely, but somewhat sarcastically)  on the fact that that design did not come about until much, much later in historical time and most definitely not in or most favored time frame.  Smile and continue on your journey.   Worked for me many times.   Snarkers should be put in their place and severely so.  There is nothing more rude than to rain on someones parade that has put in a lot of time and effort to blend in.  So theydid not have access to the right fabric and all of the sewing is machine sewing, SO WHAT, they are trying.  Those that know me will have a hard time believing that I have mellowed a bit, but I dread to think what the outcome would have been if someone had snarked me about my very first renne outfit.  It was colorful to say the least and a bit out of fashion, but man was I proud of it.  I did not do the actual sewing but I designed it and wore it proudly.   So when ever I see and/or hear snarking going on I step forward and do my best to repair whatever damage may have been done.   
Ancient swordsman/royalty
Have Crown/Sword Will Travel

LadyMeg

I believe there is a difference between snarking in your own mind and snarking aloud, and to the person.  It's like when you think something rude, but have enough manners not to say it.  I cannot stand those who snark people at faire.  It is faire and is meant to be enjoyed.  While I have not experienced snarking to my face, I know myself and I know if someone did that to me, I'd be extremely hurt.  I put a lot of effort and design into my clothing H/A or not and I would probably trash that outfit as soon as I got home from remarks like that... and who has the right to make someone feel that badly about themselves?  No one at faire because faire is about the spirit and the feeling of it and anyone who snarks is taking away the spirit of the faire we all love.  You make H/A outfits, fantastic, power to you, but don't insult someone who doesn't.  Maybe they did it intentionally, did the snarkers ever think about that?  As I've gotten older (a big 21 years, haha), I think I've learned to say to someone who's picked on my clothing by saying, "Yes, I know it's not H/A or I would have done this or that, but this was intentional.  I'm having a good time, are you?"  Chances are, they are not.  If a snarker wants H/A, join a re-enactment group that focuses on that.

And while I think everyone sort of snarks in their head, I don't think I've ever done it to someone in person.  The only time I say anything about an outfit, is when someone is indecent (buttcheeks and too much cleavage (I think we know what I mean) is not something appropriate in public places, sorry).  Let people enjoy what they are wearing.  Appreciate the thought that went into it.
|LadyMeg|
________
Galene, Nereid in pirate form
Lady Alethea Talbot

Lady Kathleen of Olmsted


As a Period Clothing Costumer myself, I strive  to be as H/A as I can when doing my own garb and that of clients.  I believe strongly  research does help as does knowing the techniques used to achieve the H/A look. But I also put a great deal of attention on workmanship. But also wearing garb for fun is as important as being H/A.

Sometimes I have been snarked in my garb by those who feel that they are far more superior than I am and know it all. For as long as I have been sewing, I am still learning new things.

I have found myself in that position at times to want to say something unbecoming about something, but held my tounge.  But something positive goes a lot further. I use the FEEL, FELT, FOUND method.

"I understand how you FEEL about Cartridge Pleating. I FELT the same way about this technique. But I FOUND that with more research and time, I was able to figure it out and inprove on it." People love it when ideas are shared. Everybody wins.
"As with Art as in Life, nothing succeeds like excess.".....Oscar Wilde

Miranda

How you handle snarking is based on your garbing goals.  If you just want something to wear to faire.  Then by all means, tell the person in question, "That's nice, but that's not my approach."  
If you are attempting a more historical piece, then by all means cite your research and resources, ask for theirs.  It might start a dialogue, you might learn something, and the bar might be raised.  Debates and dialogues, are great ways to bounce ideas off of people.
As I said before people who "snark" are usually one of three types:

A)People who mean well, want to help, but lack the social graces to tell you so in a tactful manner.
B)People who are insecure, and the best way they can feel better about themselves is to offer up information because it makes them feel smarter.
C)Geniunely mean individuals who are out to ruin your day
9 times out of 10...its A or B...

In regards to the SCA, Laurels are supposed to be teachers, and the best teachers expect a level of excellence.  In all other cases see A,B, and C above.

Oh, and if you are a truly fantastic creature I find the best defense is....I don't really exist in your plane...I'm a figment of your imagination.  Its how my friend who played Titania at TRF excused the zippers on her boots.
Lady Margaret Howard -The Order of St. Thomas More.

raevyncait

I go to faire, wearing what I wear because 1. I enjoy faire and 2. I feel beautiful in it.  I am reasonably period, as far as fabric choices (mostly solid colors, always natural fibers except for 1 corset) go. I choose to stick with relatively basic wench, because I don't feel the need or desire for lots of trim and details on what I wear.  I am there to have fun, not to be a history lesson, or a fashion history lesson.  There are times that I do something a little off the wall (I had Elvis on my bodice for Day of Wrong this year, along with blue suede medieval moccasins).  Nobody has to like it except me, because I am not on cast, and I paid my admission, and while it may be offensive to the very picky folks, in general it's not offensive.  I don't always wear a head covering, or have my hair done.  All this means is I'm not allowed to march in parade.  Doesn't matter to me.  I am sure that I've been snarked in the past (heck, looking at photos of what I wore in pathetic attempts to be garbed, I certainly would have said to one or two of my close friends "oh my, give her points for trying, but ugh, that's just awful")

This past season, a friend, and, frankly someone from whom I've learned a lot about garb, who I have looked up to as sort of a garb mentor because she makes some of the most fabulous gowns I've seen. was snarky to me on the last day of the season.  Now, I mentioned that I do basic wench.  I found online fabrics that represent/honor various branches of the military.  I managed to procure those of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines.  I cut panels, stitched them together, and made me a "Tribute to the Military" skirt to wear for Memorial Day. Period? Nope. H/A? Nope. One of a kind? Yep. Made me happy? You bet.  Out in the parking lot, I had been laced into my corset, which didn't "match", but IMHO, coordinated, as it was red with black trim and little silver slashes on it. (skirt panels were either in blues/reds or khaki's/reds, depending on the branch).  I had gone back over to my car to get the rest of my stuff loaded onto my belt and get my belt on when she arrived.  I was BEAMING and quite proud of my outfit.  I said to her "look at my Tribute to the Military skirt", and held it spread so she could see all the panels, anticipating a fellow military brat's appreciation of the fabric.  What I got instead was "oh, nice, but the corset doesn't match".  Fortunately, I am 1. secure enough in myself and what I had done and 2. who do you suppose I learned about snarking from?? that I could blow off the comment after the initial sting.

I have seen some truly HORRID things, but as I have limited knowledge of H/A, what causes me to do what snarking I do, amongst a handful of friends has less to do with H/A and more to do with the fact that it is a 300 pound woman wearing strips of sheer fabric as her skirt with nothing under it and a Frederick's corset that is straining equipment limits, or some such thing that is probably inappropriate and/or offensive to the majority of the general population not just of the faire world, but of the American mundane world as well.  I try to never snark my friends or people that I know, and if I have the opportunity, I try to offer friendly suggestions for improvement.
Raevyn
IWG 3450
The ORIGINAL Pipe Wench
Wench @ Large #2
Resident Scottish Gypsy
Royal Aromatherapist

Athena

Quote from: Master James on July 23, 2008, 09:01:26 AM
I'll admit I may look at someone's garb and THINK that this or that is wrong with their garb but I would NEVER say it to them.  That is just flat wrong unless they ask me for advice.  Then as you said, its not snarking but constructive critisism.

I agree. It's just plain rude to offer unsolicited opinions or advice, and there's a tactful way to do it if someone asks. A little encouragement goes a long way.

I've never been snarked, and if someone were to make a negative comment about my garb, I'd tell 'em to stuff it. I don't aspire to historical accuracy (my look is historically inspired) and I make no apologies for that.
A book is like a garden carried in the pocket. ~ Chinese Proverb

Merry

Critisism can be supportive.  I wore my new middles for the first time this spring.   I made them myself and there was much ripping, bleeding, cursing and hair pulling involved.   They were not fancy, nor were they probably the best made, but *I* made them, and I was proud of the effort.  My guildmistress is very talented in garbing and knowledgeable in h/a.  She didn't say a word about what was wrong...just praised me on my efforts and said I looked fabulous.

Meadering thru the fair that day, I happened upon another mistress who commented on my garb, positively:)  I was in heaven!  But she followed this up with a bit of education on my choice of colors.  I chose a rose and sage green combo... (a bit contempory?  I don't know, I didn't pick the colors, my guildmistress helped me pick the fabric.  I've always loved the combo so I made the garb.)  This person told me while the colors were probably not commonly put together, they were in existance and proceeded to tell my their period names.... bloody spaniard and gooseturd green.  I was humbly educated:)  I'm wearing blood and bird poop!!! :D  We had a good giggle and she gave me some more good advice on how to improve my garb.

It's all in the delivery:)

PurpleDragon

Quote from: verymerryseamstress on July 23, 2008, 07:54:13 AM
Isabella: I don't think it's fair to say that everyone snarks.  I know a lot of people who don't do it.  I don't find anything enjoyable about picking on other people. 

Being snarky is not necessarily about "picking on other people".  It could simply be a rather off-handed response to some unsolicited inane information they feel needs to be interjected into your conversation. ;)
Karl "Dragon" Wolff
The Pirates Cove

Bin Ich SCHLECHT? Ja BIN Ich.

verymerryseamstress

It doesn't matter.  I don't pick on people.  I don't snark people.  For her to say that everyone does it is not accurate.
I'm your very merry seamstress.  How may I help you?