Industrial/Commercial/Heavy Duty Machines

[JuanDiego]

Hello all.  I haven't been to this forum in a loooong time.  I forgot what a great resource it is.   

I know the "which machine should I get" question is periodically asked.  I did a quick search of past topics and found some helpful info, but I need to dig deeper with this issue.  First, the set-up, so you all will know where I'm coming from and hoping to go:

I participate with the SCA and also attend Ren Faires at least once a year (sometimes in garb, sometimes not).  I pursue a late 16th century Spanish persona, so my garb is usually typical doublets and venetians (slops coming in the future).  One thing that is unique is that I pursue period rapier fencing with the SCA.  We use real steel swords with blunt tips and a fairly light calibration of impact when we strike each other.  The SCA has a strict safety guideline for puncture resistance of fencing garments over the torso (in case of broken blades during combat).  There is a device used to test whatever layers of fabric you may be using.  Most often, a passing garment consists of something in the range of 4 layers of heavy poplin, or 3-4 layers of denim/canvas weight cotton with a lighter lining, or 3-4 layers of heavy tight-weave linen, or brocade with a couple layers of linen or canvas backing, or 4-5oz leather, or (you get the picture).  That would be for my heavy fencing doublets.  My Viking/Husqvarna 415 or my old Singer 237 can handle most normal garments (like shirts, hose, pants, dresses etc), and if it were just the 4 layers on the doublets, that would be fine too.  But seams are often 8 layers (4+4).  Adding peplums or shoulder thingys or folding over seam allowances to stitch them down for reinforcement, and crossing over other seams...I can often have buildups of a dozen layers of fairly heavy fabric that make the folks at sewing machine stores look at me like I'm a lunatic.  I would also like to get into some light to moderate leather work, and eventually build at least one full size medieval round canvas pavilion for camping.  This has me considering commercial and/or industrial machines to take the burden off my home machines. 

I've looked at lots of things (used industrial machine heads, new machines, portable Sailrite Ultrafeeds, other portable clones of the Ultrafeed, vintage machines, etc.  I'm well aware of the ridiculous overuse of the words "commercial" and "industrial" by people selling inferior machines.  I'm currently considering the Sailrite 111 MC-SCR machine.  It's an industrial compound feed walking foot straight stitch machine.  A set of feet grabs the assembly from above and below while the needle plunges and stays plunged.  Then the whole mess pulls forward.  A second set of feet then comes together to hold everything still while it resets for the next stitch.  It seems like crazy overkill, until I start to describe what I want to do.  Has anyone here done much work with industrial machines?  The model I'm looking at does not utilize a high speed clutch or servo motor.  Instead, it has an electronic speed control that maintains full torque at slow speeds for control.  Are there any other machines that I should be giving a serious look at?  Am I biting off more than I need with this?

[isabelladangelo]

The reason you probably aren't getting many responses is I don't believe many of us - if any- use industrial strength sewing machines.   My Singer sews through 6 layers of denim like a hot knife through butter.   It's all about what needle you use.   

[JuanDiego]

Thanks for at least making a reply.  83 ignores means a lot of people were curious about the topic, but were too damn lazy to help.  I might not be back to this forum again.

Suggest that I focus on needles instead . . . excellent advice.
Tell me that an industrial machine is overkill . . . fine.
Make suggestions of machines that do well with lots of layers . . . that's what I was hoping for.
Advice from folks working in big time theatrical costume shops . . . that would be cool.
Flat out ignore the new guy in the forum . . . adios.

[PollyPoPo]

"Too damn lazy to help?" 

Insulting the 83 people who did read your post may not be the way to get help. 

(EDIT:  As Lady Isabella points out below, "83 views" does not mean 83 people actually read or even saw the original post.)

As one of the live people who "looked at the message," then did not reply, since you seem to demand an answer to your post -- "Has anyone here done much work with industrial machines?" for only myself, No, I have not. 

Your other questions are out of my range of experience.

There are many other resources on-line. 

[isabelladangelo]

83 views does not mean 83 people even viewed the post, let alone were "too lazy" to help.  Many of the views could have been spiders/bots/webcrawlers - I get rougly 30 to 40 a day on my blog.   Even with people viewing the post, a lack of reply does not mean laziness.   Instead, it means that many people did not feel they had something to contribute to the discussion.   I'm sure the knights in the Midrealm would be happy to teach you more about chivalry and not to jump to negative conclusions - plus the consequences of those conclusions.

If anyone would like to encourage the knights of the Midrealm to teach Juan Diego de Belmonte about chivalry and manners, the email for the order of Chivalry (knights) is syrsilverthorn@gmail.com.  Make sure the subject is "Ask the chivalry".   I'm sure they will be most happy to comply upon seeing his above missive. 

[Butch]

-@I have two commercial macines, they are both Singer. One is a 1907 model that my son uses for leatherwork. The other is a 1952 model (I think it's a 251-3) that I use for heavier/multi-layer applications.  I use other machines more often.  Have no advice to give for your application, sorry.  Good luck though!  I didn't know what this thread was about the first time I saw the title.  I must admit I look at many more threads than I post there-on; please pardon me if my participation on this forum is supposed to include a post every time I review a thread. I meant no offense by my inaction.

[Crimson]

Here! Here! Isabella!

Lack of reply means I have nothing to contribute, not laziness. 

[Rowan MacD]

^^ ditto^^ I have a basic Brother machine, and have sewn many heavy fabrics.  I don't have problems when going slowly and using the correct needle.

  However, it strikes me that he may of overlooked an obvious solution:
  Why do you need to sew 8 layers at the seams?
  Just reinforce the areas most likely to get pierced; I hardly think leaving even a 1" seam allowance at the edges of the pieces for ease of sewing will result in any appreciable vulnerability to injury.  Though not being familiar with the SCA Marshall's (our barony didn't have practice for rapiers) rules I cannot say for sure.
  I would suggest that he avoid seams in those areas too, 8 layers or not. Seams will catch a broken blade, and funnel the point straight to where it hurts, just like badly fitted armor will. 
    A solid section over the breast and back, with a wrap around side should suffice, similar to the commercial fencing vests used for practice.

[Butch]

Or, maybe fit the doublet over a modern fencing vest?

[Rowan MacD]

  Sounds like a solve to me.
  A light weight doublet might be enough to disguise a fencing vest (albeit a small one).   Otherwise, building a custom piece shouldn't be too hard, and would probably be cheaper..

[Gauwyn of Bracknell]

make that 84, although I guess this is reply, so back to 83 

[JuanDiego]

Sorry to offend.  I was just supremely irritated that night because I had been seeking advice from multiple sources and getting nothing useful.  It was seeming that this was going to be just another in a long string of let-downs.  Although it is interesting that it took stirring the pot to bring out the good points made above.  The advice was there.  It just wasn't coming out.  Thank you to those who chimed in.

Agreed, 8 layers "seems" ridiculous.  In my area, garb that passes the punch test and/or the individual preferences of different marshals seems to be extremely varied.  I've heard of people saying their doublets pass just fine with only 2 layers of regular store-bought linen, and I've seen 4 layers of canvas weight material fail because of penetration through the 1st 1-2 layers. . . and everything in between.  If I am going to go through the time, effort, and expense of making decent garb, it had better NEVER fail.  The 8 layers occur when 4 layers of one panel are seamed to 4 layers of another panel.  Laying the seam to one side and stitching it down to reinforce the seam is something I commonly do, which is where 12 layers can occur.  Even if I acknowledge that it's "overengineered" and scale it down to 3 layers as suggested, that second line of stitches is going through 9 layers.  My machines can penetrate that once they get going, but getting the needle started often involves having to handcrank, and I often hear the motor groaning.  Also, having to climb over perpendicular seams when attaching additional pieces or adding trim has thrown off the timing on my Husqvarna twice in the past.

The most useful replies point me toward "proper needles", but nobody mentioned what that would be.  I've been using denim needles.  A new needle for the start of each new doublet, in the past.  Should I be looking for something different?  Leather needles, maybe?  The other reason I was considering a heavier machine was the option of a proper walking foot (not just a bulky attachment which lowers the foot clearance, defeating the point of sewing multiple layers).  I was thinking it would help keep things from shifting, especially if I'm trying to work my way over a series of pleats or whatever.

Again, I apologize for my irritated remark.  Please don't ask the chiv to start a flame war on me.  That won't help.  Helping will help.

[Hoowil]

I would personally go along with the mulit-layered tactic. Even in period, when practicing  they would often wear a padded coat. I do not remember where, but I do remember seeing soemthing about an arming coat (if I remember right, the term was a cote d'arm, but trying to look for that just got me a bunch of miniature paint), not quite a gambison, that was double breasted that could be worn over a shirt or doublet. If you can find more information on it, it would allow to make the garment much thinner, easing the strain on the machine, while effectively doubling the effective thickness of the front torso, where you are most likely to get hit.
If it were my project, I would try to find an alternative route to getting it done instead of spending thousands of dollars on a new machine that would only really be needed for that project.

I do not want to continue the flow of people being argravated about soem of  the comments, but sometimes it takes a while, weeks even, depending on the time of year, for the right people to see a thread and comment. We have an immensly supportive community here, but we all opperate on our own schedules. Patience will win you more help than trying to stir the pot. To broaden your chances, you might try soem of the other rooms here that focus more on arms and armor or on combat. Somebody there might be able to point you in a practicle direction that most in the garbing community might not think of.
And, armor, even what would in effect be cloth armor, will evenually fail. I have done SCA heavy combat, and rapier combat, and from my experience, as much time is spent maintaining and repairing armor as wearing it. I can appreciate wanting to make something that will last, but please do not expect to over engineer something and never have to replace it. Regardless of the layers of fabric, if even a single fiber breaks each time you are hit, eventually there will be a hole.