Split front elizabethan gown

[Rowan MacD]

  I am looking for a pattern for that particular bodice.  I'm not sure what 'country' it originated from...French?  Italian? Spanish?
The front looks kinda like this:

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[isabelladangelo]

I'm not quite sure what style you mean.  Do you mean Venetian?


English?


Generic Italian?


Or were you thinking earlier and Burgundian?

[Rowan MacD]

 Sorry for the delay in replying:

Apparently it's Venetian, as you say; thanks!

Are there good patterns for this (portraits #1, #2 and #3)?

[isabelladangelo]

I honestly don't know.   

What I've done in the past is take whatever my favorite Elizabethan bodice pattern, make it a front lacing, and take away a bit from the upper bust area.  I then do a mock up and edit as needed.  It works well. 

For the doublet gowns, Simplicity 3782 works very well. 

[Rowan MacD]

  Thanks!  My MA elizabethen should be modify-able then....
Margo Anderson has just come out with a pattern for this style-she used kickstarter to produce it, and the donors will be the first to get a set.
  Has anyone received their copies?  It doesn't look like she has released it for general sale yet.....I can't wait!

[insidiousraven]

I recently modified my MA elizabethan bodice pattern for my first Venetian dress. I just took width out of the front panels so the gap was larger. 

[Rowan MacD]

  Thanks!  I have this great design in my head...
  MA still doesn't have her Venetian gown patterns available.   Seems there were some technical issues..

[gem]

"Technical issues" is a highly diplomatic way to describe it. 

But really, any bodice block that fits you well should be able to modify to fit. (And in case you were thinking about the 1560s English style--shown on the girl with the lavishly embroidered sleeves/partlet--MA's Elizabethan pattern offers a version that laces in back/sides/etc, but hooks up the front.)

[Rowan MacD]

  That's the one I am thinking of making.   Added bonus is the front closing bodice-saves hubby having to lace me with his arthritic fingers.
   I like MA  but she seems a bit distracted lately.

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

Rowan. Here is a Venetian gown and pieces I drafted by hand 2 years ago. I used a Corset generator for the bodice based on Lady Kett's measurements.  Not bad  for not using a pattern.

[operafantomet]

  Thanks!  My MA elizabethen should be modify-able then....
Margo Anderson has just come out with a pattern for this style-she used kickstarter to produce it, and the donors will be the first to get a set.
  Has anyone received their copies?  It doesn't look like she has released it for general sale yet.....I can't wait!

Have in mind that Venetian dresses bodices are usually a LOT shorter at the sides than Elizabethan dresses. And to balance the construction they're also pointed in the back. Elizabethan bodices are more cone shaped overall.

Here you can see how incredibly short they could be under the arms:
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/operafantomet/media/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/tintoretto1570s.jpg.html

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/operafantomet/media/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/tizian1556fan.jpg.html

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/operafantomet/media/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/veronese1570snewer.jpg.html

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/operafantomet/media/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/titianlavinia1565.jpg.html

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/operafantomet/media/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/veronese1560snatgalireland.jpg.html

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/operafantomet/media/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/veronese156070.jpg.html

Whereas there are more cone shaped Venetian bodices as well, they're less typical. Elizabethan patterns can be used as a basis, but more extreme curves is the way to go for an even more authentic look. And actually more comfortable to wear too.

You can see a lot more Venetian dresses here:
http://aneafiles.webs.com/renaissancegallery/veneto.html

And here:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/wardrobe.htm

[Rowan MacD]

  Thank you Opera,  those are great!
 
  Since I'm not all that into 100% HA, I'm visualizing my gown bodice as sort of a blended venetian/Elizabethan:
  This is sort of what I'm looking to do...note the lack of laces on the front. 
   

[operafantomet]

Aaaah. Then you're not really looking for Venetian style. You're looking for actual Elizabethan bodices, with a slightly more of the modesty panel visible than you'd see in portraits. ETA: like one of the portraits Isabella posted. Or like these ones of Queen Elizabeth I:

http://www.luminarium.org/renlit/lizvandermeulen.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:George_Gower_Elizabeth_Sieve_Portrait.jpg

Or this of Mary, queen of Scots:
http://englishhistory.net/tudor/relative/maryqosbiographyblack.jpg

Whereas Elizabethan and Venetian style share some common traits, they were seen as visually and constructionally different to the point where Elizabeth I was described as owing garments "in the Venetian style".

I would have a look in Jean Hunnisett's 16th century pattern book (the "For stage and screen" series). I'm pretty sure she has such a bodice pattern there

[Rowan MacD]

Aaaah. Then you're not really looking for Venetian style. You're looking for actual Elizabethan bodices, with a slightly more of the modesty panel visible than you'd see in portraits. ETA: like one of the portraits Isabella posted.

Precisely.  I'm thinking it won't be too hard modifying my MA bodice pattern by splitting the front along the center trim lines....
  I'm not that interested in being strictly HA;  just a pretty dress in the Elizabethan style.
  I'm not a fan of the attached skirt and front laces on the venetian style.

  The above picture is from the Pleasure Faire in California.  The subject is the same lady who makes those drool worthy hats that we all love, but can't afford; Michelle Fennema.. 
  She is wearing one of her cheaper (under $300.00) creations.   She made a spectacular french hood for the queen, which was on loan-since the price tag is somewhere around 3K.

[gem]

I'm thinking it won't be too hard modifying my MA bodice pattern by splitting the front along the center trim lines....

It should be VERY easy, since that's one of the options given in the pattern:



The illustrations in the instruction book show more, especially with the trim.

And Anea's right, Jean Hunnisett drafted a pattern for the Helena Snakenborg portrait for Period Costume for Stage & Screen, including how to make the little scalloped wings under the shoulder rolls.



(I have finally found gold cord small enough for her partlet/sleeves, which means my supply list for this gown is complete! And I am on schedule to have the embroidery finished... in another six or seven years. Egad.)

[Rowan MacD]

  For that front:
   Should I just layout the basic bodice pattern then trace how wide I want the 'V' to be?
  Should the gap go all the way to the waist; or about 1/2 way up?

[gem]

I think you'd just leave it unhooked about 1/3 of the way down.

[Rowan MacD]

 *hand in the air*  Another question!
    What is the best method of closure for the front of the bodice?  just hooks and eyes or a corset busk type thing? 
  If hooks and eyes-what type should I use?

[gem]

I have a couple Victorian/fashion corsets with busks, and they are a *massive* PITA to get into (one always pops open just as you get all the others hooked, and then it's a wrestling match to undo the others to get the one that popped, and really a matter of luck as to when/whether they're all going to get hooked together...) Skirt hooks are pretty sturdy--I've done up a bodice with those, and it withstands corset-level strains. But ordinary hooks & eyes are perfectly period. JoAnn carries a bunch of different sizes; just choose ones that look reasonable for the weights of your fabric. More hooks are better (they're like lacing rings that way), and they're less likely to come unpopped while you wear them if you alternate them, instead of doing them like buttonholes--all the hooks on one side, all the eyes on the other. I *know* that's a theatrical/movie costuming trick, and don't know if it's historical at all, but it's darn handy.

This is an excellent article on hooks & eyes on historical bodices (both period & recreations):

http://historicalsewing.com/attaching-hooks-eyes-to-edge-of-bodice

[isabelladangelo]

As Gem stated, busks are very much a 19th century invention and weren't used.  They also weren't too terribly common until the later half of the Victorian era as well.

Eyelets.   If you do the spiral lacing method, you won't be dealing with quite so many.  Make a full bodice out of lining fabric only - with boning at the front and the eyelets.  Then take the fashion fabric, roll and sew down the front opening of the bodice.  Attach this to the lining bodice at the top.  At the front, tack down only at three or four points between eyelets, around the front edge (whipstitch the fashion to the lining, basically, but only at three or four points.  This will allow the lacing to be hidden but you can still lace it up easily by yourself. 

[Rowan MacD]

   Thanks for all the info!

   Isabella- I'm not going for HA, just quick, secure and non fussy. 
   I make hand sewn eyelets only where they will be seen (like on my black gown); and I'm not a fan of front lacing bodices on noble gowns anyway. 
   My corset is already a front lacer, so I think I would rather have hooks, ala a theatrical trick, to avoid yet another layer of cord.
   I'm not entering a contest, I just need the closure to do it's job, lay as flat as possible, not bunch up, and not come unfastened.  Heck if I though t a zipper would work; I'd use that.
   I think a set of closely spaced hooks may do the trick....since I corset to the correct size, my gown does not have to 'squish' anything, but it does need to stay closed. 

[isabelladangelo]

There's plenty of evidence to show that stays weren't used until the 1590's.  The dresses themselves held the individual up.  Corsets are another 19th Century invention.  The word was first used in the very late 18th c to describe the short stays in France.   

However, hooks and eyes were used in doublet bodices as well as some partlets.   Also, as you aren't going H/A, I'm not sure why you'd be concerned about what style it was...  but, eh. 

[Rowan MacD]

    I just like the split front, as something a bit different looking from what I have been doing, and Elizabethan-ish is good enough.
    I'm not teaching anyone about 16th century fashion.  I'm more concerned with being able to dress myself somewhat easily without help, since my Hubby has arthritis in his hands.
    My question was concerning the best method to close the front of the bodice, maintain the smoothness of the closure, without pulling and bunching (like you get if you don't place boning along the eyelets on a wench bodice) while reliably keeping it closed.
   I don't know if this style of bodice even does fasten in front-it may just be sewn together 1/2 way up, and laced in the back.  I've never made one in this style before.