Question about puffed paned sleeves

[gem]

I'm making the English Fitted Gown from Tudor Tailor, and have mocked up the puffed, paned sleeve option.



So far so good, except that the instructions indicate that the panes need to be cartridge pleated or gathered to fit... which would suggest that they should be LARGER than the area you're gathering them to, right? Well, but:



Is it possible that the panes aren't meant to go all the way around the arm, that they should only sit along the sleeve cap, like the wings on a doublet? I can't find any indication of this in the instructions, or marks thereto on the pattern, but perhaps this is obvious to most people? (Genoveva does mention this in her paned sleeve tutorial.) Otherwise, it looks like I'm missing a couple of panes!

Ideas, suggestions?

Gramercy!!

[CenturiesSewing]

That is the right number of panes. They go almost all the way around the arm but not under it. If you match the curve of the top of each pane to the curve of the sleeve poof or lining you can see how far they need to be spaced out.

[gem]

...you can see how far they need to be spaced out.

Aha! That was the missing piece. In the picture in the book, they appear to be attached to one another, but if they are not meant to touch, that makes immeasurably more sense.  Ta!

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

When I nave doen paned poofed sleeves in the past, I have drafted my lwn pattern based on a regu.ar sleeve and added more for the poofed underpart. Works pretty slick.

[gem]

Alas, I have yet to develop a reliable sleeve pattern to work with, but I'm getting there!

Thankfully, Centuries's probably-obvious suggestion made all the difference (even when I sewed the panes on back-to-front.  ):



Doesn't that make 100% more sense?!

In my defense, however, *this* is the illustration from the book:



...Just sayin'. 

[Rowan MacD]

Gramercy!!

I am so glad this thread was started- I have the pattern pieces for the MA paned cap sleeves laid out on my cutting table now.
  The shapes of the pane pieces for TT and MA  are very similar....that is one end is narrower than the other,if you get my meaning-this photo illustrates this best.
Question... Looking at the above photo...which end goes toward the front of the bodice?
<=  or  =>  ? 

It seems a silly question, but the MA instructions don't say.  I guess she wants us to tack them on and go with what looks best?

[CenturiesSewing]

<= should be the front of the sleeve...assuming the panes are in the right order.

[Rowan MacD]

  Thanks! I'm cutting right now.   Like the TT pattern-MA doesn't mention spacing the panes-it's good to have that bit of  info

[gem]

Sorry--didn't have a chance to post earlier.

Rowan, mine is so wonky (forgotten seam allowances, etc) and turned around (I did sew the panes on back-to-front) that I can't even decipher from my mockup what's supposed to be where. (The good thing is, it really doesn't seem to matter, and if you look at some other paned sleeve patterns, all the panes are the same, so it's not a terribly risky venture, if you mess something up.)  That said, here's a photo where you can hopefully see the pattern pieces, and how they're oriented. Not shown is the foundation piece (where the boning goes), because CF and CB *are not marked.* () But you can see the Tudor Tailor picture of that piece in my last post.



HTH!!

[Rowan MacD]

   So far, I have my poufs gathered, stuffed and attached to my heavy fabric foundations; I am working on the panes (already screwed 2 of those up, and will need to completely re-cut, interline and trim those, long story).   

  Another question:
  The stuffing on the poufs on my MA pattern should maintain the shape of the sleeves, which the panes will rest on-another issue with the MA instructions is that she does not say how firmly to stuff the poufs. 
  I went with a soft/fluffy-but-maintains-its'-shape fullness- though I have seen tightly packed cap sleeves.
    What is the proper fullness?

    My sleeves are kind of small (about 5 inches long) so I will assume the boning in the TT pattern would really be useful for longer sleeves.....

[gem]

I think, basically, you're NOT trying to achieve this:

(sorry; image has gone walkabout! It was a photo of Giselle from "Enchanted" and her crazy sleeves.)

The TT sleeves aren't terribly long (see very first photo in the thread). And they're even shorter than that, as the bottom gets gathered into a band. And how much support the sleeves need, I would think would depend on how heavy the fabrics are, and how much drape (or lack thereof) they have on their own. In my mockup, I was using the world's crispest cotton broadcloth, and IMO the boning is entirely unnecessary. But my final will be a pretty heavy velvet pane over a puff of lightweight taffeta--both are fairly non-drapey, but the weight of the panes will definitely overwhelm the lightweigh puff fabric. I'm hoping that a heavier foundation fabric (canvas + linen) will let me use a lighter structural support (hemp cord instead of boning), but I won't know until I get in there & test it.

Historically, I've seen gads of different supports for puffed sleeves--everything from wire frames to down pillows! But in general I think you want the puff to look airy... and not like you're wearing water wings.

[Rowan MacD]

   I went with a barely filled look, stabilized with poly fiber (which I had on hand), instead of the crumpled tulle (which I would have had to buy special for this project). 
  The polyfill should resist crushing a little better than tulle, I would think.  MA instructions stated I can use either one, so I did.  I'm aiming for a softly rounded silhouette, with enough fullness to keep the panes from sagging, and to prevent large creases in the pouf.
   Should the filled cap sleeves be even with the shoulder top, or slightly higher, like a little girls gathered cap sleeve?  MA illustration shows them looking like 'Snow White'. but a bit fuller. 
  https://search.yahoo.com/search?p=snow+white&ei=UTF-8&fr=moz35

  I have seen small, tightly packed (think shoulder roll tight) sleeves, and I have seen them unfilled. 
   I have seen the 'water wing' style of paned sleeve; and to me they resemble 'pumpkin pant' trunk hose.  Some of theses are exaggerated to the point of resembling leg-o-mutton sleeves.



I guess it's a matter of style; as it was back in period.; and I don't doubt they actually existed in period.
   Just from looking at portraits, one can only imagine what affectations never made it into a picture  !  We would probably be dumfounded at the styles of codpieces, sizes of trunk hose and some of the color combinations that were actually seen by Elizabethan eyes at court.

[gem]

I think it depends a lot on era, region, and status. For the Tudor Tailor English fitted gown, I've been looking at Ninya Mikhaila's website, where the model gown from the book is posted (showing better detail than the book): http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/galleries_c16th_jess1569-2.htm  But here's a contemporary painting of such a gown, and: http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/05/ea/c1/05eac1ff3b9c04b4e9f3ce8e5e08e705.jpg

...And here's a boy's version, with quite a lot of poof! (No panes.) http://www.ninyamikhaila.com/galleries_c16th_willtowerboy.htm

But then you have things like Trystan's late period Florentine: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2012/Trystan.htm

...And they'll also look different if they're tied on, rather than set into the armscye: http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2013/ElaineSD.htm (Also look at the extant gown that inspired her recreation--a much more modest amount of fullness!)

So, um... your call, really?

[Rowan MacD]

  Gem,
  Thanks for the pictures, that's such a great help!
    They will look very nice with my gold paned sleeves (I used the leftover shantung to make the poufs).  The plus is that they should also look nice with just my partlet sleeves if it's hot.

[gem]

I was worried about that, too, since I don't really have a good set of sleeves to wear with mine... and have sort of been avoiding the issue, actually! LOL  But then Centuries Sewing showed me this blogger's fitted gown, worn with just her chemise: http://fancymiscellany.wordpress.com/2014/06/17/fitted-english-gown-outfit-wip/

Oooh, and look what I found in my Pinterest feed--these are leaning more toward shoulder rolls, aren't they?

http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ca/fb/37/cafb37ac642187ec0b18ef74554352dc.jpg

[Rowan MacD]

  Now you've got me skittering around looking for more pics 


Long paned sleeves are very easy to make, and switching them between gowns changes up the look. You can take them off when it gets hot, leaving the cap sleeves in place.
  I used the MA pattern, which I had to shorten by about 5".
Note: If you shorten them,  you will need to redraft the tapered ends to be small enough to fit your wrists, it's not hard, and once you have your altered pattern you don't have to do it again.
   You can knock out a pair in one afternoon.   Most of the time is spent sewing the 'connector' buttons (I used beads).   
  Add faux poufs by sewing 2-3" wide,  long tubes of white linen, or whatever material your partlet/ chemise is made from.  Tack them on inside the shoulder cap binding then weave them down the sleeve between the buttons.

[gem]

You are SO NOT KIDDING about the length on the paned sleeves! And I have short arms to begin with. When I made mine, I used a size 8 or 10 for the circumference, and whatever the smallest size in the package is (2 or 0?) for the length... and they're STILL monstrously too big! They look like they've eaten my arms. 
...So last year I slipped some sleeve garters over them, PUFFED OUT the panes between them, and wore them German-style! LOL

[Rowan MacD]

  These are the paned sleeves-shortened by about 5".  I measured from the top of the shoulder to the wrist, to get the proper length. This pic shows the faux poufing.  This is also the bodice that will eventually have cap sleeves, which I will wear over these.

[gem]

Those look great! How did you do the faux chemise poufs? Narrow tube... then?

[Rowan MacD]

  Exactly. 
   I use pieces of linen about 1-1/2 the length of the finished sleeve-; about 5"-6" wide,  than sewn in half lengthwise to make a 2.5"-3" tube. 
  To prep the paned sleeve for the poufs:
   In addition to the connector buttons or beads that I use to connect the panes, I make another stitch 1/2 way between each of the buttons on the sleeve panels themselves to hold the pouf to the outside of the sleeve.
  I baste one end of the tube to the upper, inside of the sleeve even with the bias that edges the upper sleeve where the points go.
   I weave the tube over the stitches and under the buttons till I get to the end, cut off the excess  (if any)and baste the end to the inside of the wrist end.  Repeat.
   I have also made a special linen chemise with fitted sleeves specifically to wear under the pouf-ed sleeves, so there is less bulk.

   From what I have seen and been told-faux poufs were common in period, and I can see why.  Who wants to spend ages pulling linen through slashes, just to have the darn things randomly pull back into the inside of the sleeves/doublet, or whatever you have them on?

[Rowan MacD]

  New question:
   Can Elizabethan cap sleeves be made to tie or pin on?
   I would prefer not to partly disassemble my dress bodice to attach them.