Sleeves and Forepart?

[sealion]

Do they always match? Would it look too wierd if they didn't? I've made sleeves and a caul from red silk leftover from a previous project. The silk came from curtain panels and, of course, I can't find another to make the forepart to match. I've also searched the fabric stores and can't find anything I like in a similar color. I did however find another clearance curtain panel in an antique (dull) gold with embroidery that matches the dull gold trim on the the medium blue dress very well and intend to make a set of sleeves, caul, and forepart from that. I really like the red sleeves with the dress and that color combo was the inspiration for making a new gown but I'm really bummed that I cn't get my hands on more of the fabric and am thinking a totally different forepart might look better than something that almost but not quite matches. What do you think?

[isabelladangelo]

short answer, no.  They did not always match.  However, they normally did.  The mismatching on purpose seems to have come in waves.  It was popular in the 1560's and in the 1590s (I think?).

Some good examples of mismatching from the 1560's:
http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/MargaretAudley.jpg
http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/ElizabethValois.jpg (the sleeves and forepart are the same color but the slashing creates a "different" look)
http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/Theophila.jpg

[SirBlackFox]

Although I'm a novice at sewing, (my wife is the master seamstress in our home) I do know quite a bit about art, portraits and perspective.  I'm not sure if the images shown in the last post are mis-matching sleeves at all.  When one bends one's arm, the sleeves naturally bunch and added to the use of a 3/4 turn in portraiture. . .  well. . .  distortion of the sleeves and body is quite evident.

Using paintings of the era to work up modern versions of the outfits is sometimes very mis-leading.  If you factor in the competency of the painter, how the photo of the painting was taken (whether it was a direct, professional commercial-grade copy photo or just some hack in a museum), or don't take into account the style of the times (i.e. it was the Renaissance and no style was in fashion for more than a few months in any given court), I think it's got to be extremely difficult. . .if not impossible to come up with an accurate historical representation of the garb.

Not to mention, having one's portrait painted was like having your portrait taken today. . . you don't show up in your every day clothes. . .you wear the best you have (and therefore inaccurate in the day-to-day wearing of even today's fashions).  I've long felt that if someone was to bring a Renaissance individual into the future and show them a typical Renaissance faire, they'd ask if it was "portrait day" because everyone would be in their finest (as shown in paintings). LOL


All my opinion of course. . .but might make a damn good garb article for Faire Magazine. . . .  any takers?

[isabelladangelo]

I'm not quite sure what you mean about the distortion of the sleeves.  Of course there will be some bends in the fabric given the bending of the arm.   The question was in regards to if there was any evidence of foreparts and sleeves being non-matching and there is.  It was not a question as to whether or not portraits should be used.  Unfortunately, all we have left are written accounts, a lot of portraits, and a few extant articles.  Of most of the complete dresses we have, either the sleeves are missing (Eleanor of Toledo burial gown) or the sleeves are attached.   

Sleeves during the mid 16th c and later were cut on a curve to allow for the natural bending of an arm.  The extant blackwork sleeves (Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd, Page 190, image 274) clearly show this. 

The sleeves I showed in the previous portraiture correspond to known curved and decorated sleeves from the era.  One such pair are the extant pair at the V & A which can be seen in Historical Fashion in Detail, pg 28,  in which you have a tight fitting pair of curved sleeves that are highly decorated.   Unfortunately, all that is left of this outfit are the sleeves so it is impossible to tell if they went with a matching petticoat/forepart or not.

QEI wears similar sleeves in her portrait of "Queen Elizabeth I and the three Goddesses".  However, in that one, she has the matching sleeves and forepart.   Given that the sleeves in the portraits I posted are so similar to this one, yet the forepart/petticoat is different, then, the portraits must be taken at face value.  Another one with sleeves greatly different from the gown/overgown is one of QEI painted in 1563.  It can be found in Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd, page 139, image 222.  The sleeves are similar to the extant green ones in terms of shape and amount of decoration.

As for portraits showing people in their Sunday best all the time, that is simply not true.  Many paintings depict market days, servants in the background, and many sketches and/or woodcuts show peasants in torn or patched clothing.  One such woodcut shows a shortened skirt and ill fitting bodice on the milkmaid, as well as the torn hosen on the farmer.  There are plenty of others out there and I invite you to search http://www.wga.hu to start.

We also have more than enough written documents, particularly by Purtains, on the "abuses" of fashion which give us a rich and interesting idea of what was worn.  When you pair it with the portraiture, you find that the portraits do speak to what was worn according to the people of the time.  Was it the Sunday best?  Maybe, but most of the dresses, gowns, and doublets simply need less trim and ouches to become more everyday.   

I doubt anyone from the 16th c would ever think it's "portrait" day because that's a very Victorian notion.  The more wealthy simply dressed better.  The idea of the day was to dress to your station, not to dress to the hour of the day.  If you had the money, you wore your best gown to show you could afford to do so.  You literally wore your wealth on your sleeve and it was not uncommon, even in the 16th c, to hear of people bartering by taking pearls, brooches, or other signs of wealth off their outfits to pay for various things.   

[silverstah]

Although I'm a novice at sewing, (my wife is the master seamstress in our home) I do know quite a bit about art, portraits and perspective.  I'm not sure if the images shown in the last post are mis-matching sleeves at all.  When one bends one's arm, the sleeves naturally bunch and added to the use of a 3/4 turn in portraiture. . .  well. . .  distortion of the sleeves and body is quite evident.

Although you could argue that the Elizabeth Valois portrait linked above has the same fabric for the forepart and sleeves - the differences are due to poor photo quality combined with the pattern of the fabric being broken up by the slashing - it's blatantly obvious that in the first and third portraits linked that the sleeves and foreparts are done in two different fabrics.  It's not common, but it was done.

Using paintings of the era to work up modern versions of the outfits is sometimes very mis-leading.  If you factor in the competency of the painter, how the photo of the painting was taken (whether it was a direct, professional commercial-grade copy photo or just some hack in a museum), or don't take into account the style of the times (i.e. it was the Renaissance and no style was in fashion for more than a few months in any given court), I think it's got to be extremely difficult. . .if not impossible to come up with an accurate historical representation of the garb.

Well, thankfully, when it comes to the Renaissance period (as opposed to earlier periods, where extant evidence is scanty), we have a fair number of extant garments that have been meticulously researched and written about by textile historians who specialize in these eras.  More research is being done now than ever by both professional and non-professional historians, and costumers now have access to a wide number of research papers, books, and articles that delve into both broad overarching fashion trends and minute details such as seam finishes, the weave of fabric, and pattern techniques.

Of course, we're lucky in that we also have a number of tailor's pattern books from the period such as Juan De Alcega's that show us precisely the shapes that were used to get specific garment types.

So, actually, no - it's not all that difficult to come up with a very reasonably historically accurate representation of the fashions of the 16th century.  You just need to know where to look, who to talk to, what resources to use, and how to apply all of that.  Thanks to the tireless effort of many historians, there is excellent information available.  The trick is using the information properly and taking the time to learn proper 16th century sewing techniques.  

Not to mention, having one's portrait painted was like having your portrait taken today. . . you don't show up in your every day clothes. . .you wear the best you have (and therefore inaccurate in the day-to-day wearing of even today's fashions).  I've long felt that if someone was to bring a Renaissance individual into the future and show them a typical Renaissance faire, they'd ask if it was "portrait day" because everyone would be in their finest (as shown in paintings). LOL

Although many formal portraits show upperclass people in their best finery, there was also the trend to show the working-class and peasantry - such as the Campi working-class portraits (as lascivious as they are!) or the Netherlandish/Flemish paintings of Brughel.  Of course, there are the Trachtenbuchs that are a fascinating look at a variety of different cultures and classes.  

Although it is trendy for patrons of renaissance festivals to dress in upperclass garments, there is a small but growing minority of people who enjoy making and wearing historically accurate working class clothing.  We're not as flashy as some, but we're out there.  

Sealion - I'd make a forepart that was totally different than your sleeves and caul.  It'll look great - and you'll be much happier with that than with something that matches-almost-but-not-quite.  Please post pictures when you're done, I love seeing your work!

[Syrilla]

As an opinion, if mis-matched, the forpart (shown underskirt) and the sleeves would be of complimentary or coordinating colors to the period.  Ex: if the sleeves had a red in it then the skirt might be red trimed.

[silverstah]

As an opinion, if mis-matched, the forpart (shown underskirt) and the sleeves would be of complimentary or coordinating colors to the period.  Ex: if the sleeves had a red in it then the skirt might be red trimed.

Or find a brocade that had the same red in the pattern?  Or even an embroidered silk?  You could do some really cool stuff, Sealion!

[SirBlackFox]

I love this place. . . I learn new stuff all the time. . . and well spoke!

[sealion]

I love this place. . . I learn new stuff all the time. . . and well spoke!

True!

[sealion]

As an opinion, if mis-matched, the forpart (shown underskirt) and the sleeves would be of complimentary or coordinating colors to the period.  Ex: if the sleeves had a red in it then the skirt might be red trimed.

Or find a brocade that had the same red in the pattern?  Or even an embroidered silk?  You could do some really cool stuff, Sealion!

I knew I could count on you all for a solution! 
An embroidered silk was what I had in mind (red background with multicolor embroidery) but I couldn't find anything like what I had pictured. Isn't that always how it goes? lol I did find a fabric that is a lighter red with gold lines forming a diamond pattern and darker red dots (that are very close to the color of the silk) where the lines intersect. Now, after reading your suggestions, I'm thinking that could work if I trim it with a band of the red silk and the gold gimp I've used on the overskirt.

[sealion]

Here's a photo of the blue skirt trimmed with navy velveteen. On the left is a swatch of the fabric I found yesterday with a scrap of the red silk. On the right is the embroidered gold curtain.

[Lady Renee Buchanan]

I am not a seamstress and so have no eye for colors and details when it comes to fabric and sewing, but I'd say, unless you are striving for complete H/A or entering a costume contest that will be judged on the accuracy of the clothing for the period, it looks really pretty together -- go for it.

99% of the people at faire won't have a clue as to whether or not it was "supposed to" be like that.  I bet you'll get lots of people looking at you thinking "what a beautiful gown."

So if you like it, that's all that really matters. Please post pictures.  I, and many others, enjoy looking at other peoples' garb!

[silverstah]

Sealion -

I think all of those colors will look lovely together - the gold in the diamond fabric is reflected nicely in the embroidered fabric.  Well done!

[Lady Caroline]

Yes, please post pictures, pictures, pictures!  I love looking at everyone's completed projects and gowns.  I would have never thought of putting blue and red together like that.  It looks beautiful.

[sealion]

I never would have thought of putting the red with the blue if I hadn't seen it on a member of the court at Bristol. While this dress isn't an attempt to copy her gown it was most definitely inspired by it! And of course I will post pics when it is finished. 

[Anna Iram]

Oh Sealion , I've seen your forepart fabric at our Joanns here and it's lovely. It looks to me that the red center dot works well with the color of the red silk. Sometimes, even if the fabric is not an exact match you can fool the eye by (as you and Syrilla said) adding a bit of trim or using the fabric in a way that picks up the color. I think it will be lovely. The all gold sleeves/forpart.caul will make a nice change as well.

[verymerryseamstress]

Cindy, if you're unsure, I have a bit of yardage of gold tapestry (not shiny) that might look nice with the gold embroidered fabric you have.  I'd be happy to send it to you if you'd like to have it.   

[sealion]

Cindy, if you're unsure, I have a bit of yardage of gold tapestry (not shiny) that might look nice with the gold embroidered fabric you have.  I'd be happy to send it to you if you'd like to have it.   

I appreciate for the offer but I'm not trying to match the gold. The gold will be for a second set of accessories. It is the red silk I was having trouble with and was asking if it would look too strange to wear the red sleeves with the gold forepart. I think you all have convinced me to buy the red diamond pattern fabric to use with the red sleeves.

[Cilean]

Here Here and Brava to the comments, yep they could match or mis-match!

Would you think of making a forepart in white with red embellishments? I think that would look smashing!

Also I adore this gown



Katherine Grey's child does not have matching Forepart and Sleeves either




Also research is not just based on viewing Portraits, there are hundreds if not thousands of wills from various levels of society in which people gave out their 'best' and sundries to their family and friends.   Clothing accounts for tax purposes of the upper levels of society.  These are invaluable, but dry reading, still they give a great glimpse into what was worn.

I am still trying to get some from what is now the German area, then I need help in translating 

So yep there are ways to know pretty much what was worn in a day to day and what would have been worn to something special, no matter if it be the Faire a Day, or going to court.

Cilean

[sealion]

I made the gold accessories today. I haven't purchased the fabric for the red forepart yet because, while the stuff I found and Joann's will work, I don't love it so I'm going to check Field Fabrics tomorrow.


(there are "dress diary" posts on my blog at www.who-gives-a.blogspot.com )

[flidais]

Oooooo pretty!!!  Looking forward to seeing that!!!

I find that I like the not so matchy-matchy.  But that is my own opinion. 
And I was just looking threw www.elizabethan-portraits.com  and I'm seeing alot of sleeves matching the gown.  I'm also noticing that alot of the skirts don't even open in the front, or if they do, they are tied shut.  Which is kinda different from what I find is normal among noble garb at faire.  I love learning about this stuff....wooohoooo!

[Anna Iram]

So pretty. I love the way you've placed the trim.

[Silverbee]

Gorgeous!

[DonaCatalina]

Hubba Hubba!

This looks like it could have stepped out of a painting.

[LaurenLee]

Your sewing room is so organized I'm greeeeeeeeen with envy.. .. and the dress is stunning!!!

lauren

[Lady Caroline]

Very very nice! 

[Syrilla]

Looks lovely, can't wait to see the red!