Corduroy question.

[Lady Neysa]

I found a pretty teal corduroy and was wondering if it would look right as outer bodice fabric (not HA).  If so would the ribbing go vertically  or horizontal?  I don't care about HA, but I don't want it to look dumb either. Does anyone ever use corduroy for a basic wenchy bodice?

[GirlChris]

I have! I used it with the whales going up and down. As an added bonus, it made laying out the bones a LOT easier. Picture!

[Lady Caroline]

I think I read somewhere (and hopefully someone can correct me) that they did indeed have corduroy, but it was rare, due to the expense (like the colour purple).

[Master James]

Yes cordoury did exist and it was very expensive because the wales had to be cut by hand.  It was not made of cotton as ours is today but silk as I understand it.  From what I've seen and heard, it was silk velvet that then they would hand cut away the nap in rows, thus cordoury.

[Merry]

I have heard this also.  Does anyone have a reference for it?  I would like to know for sure as it is much discussed in my circles.  Should it be restricted to the noble classes only, or can middles wear it....debates, debates, debates.

[peggyelizabeth]

I believe the technical term is "cut and uncut velvet"  with this method, they were able to create both striped patterned velvet (corduroy) with wide wales and velvet in other patterns as well.  I didn't find documentation in Patterns of Fashion, so I must have read it in Queen Elizabeth's Wardrobe Unlock'd, which is a really big book, so it'll take some time to find it.

[Carl Heinz]

It's banned for participants at RPFS.

Fortunately, my cordury outfit wore out just as the costume department started enforcing the ban.  (The seat of the trousers was quite thin.)

[isabelladangelo]

Cords should always go the length of the body, not around it.  The simple reason is that if the cords go around the body (horizontal) it makes the body look bigger. 

I've heard rumors of corduroy both existing and not existing during the 16th c.  They clearly had cut velvet (plenty of extant garments bare that out) but I have yet to see much on corduroy.   Most of the books I've read show corduroy to be recorded as being used in the late 17th/early 18th c.   However, since H/A isn't the point, I don't think it matters much at this time.    Uncut cord (which I've gotten and is simply beautiful) looks more like velveteen with a tighter, shorter pile.  There's a clear difference between velvet and corduroy when you see them side by side.  Velvet, for lack of a better way to put it, moves.

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

I have used Corduroy for Bodices and dresses when not going for the HA look. It's one of my favorite fabrics for garb and mundane clothing. For fun garb, I see no reason not to use it.

Corduroy is French for "fabric of Kings".

[operafantomet]

Yes cordoury did exist and it was very expensive because the wales had to be cut by hand.  It was not made of cotton as ours is today but silk as I understand it.  From what I've seen and heard, it was silk velvet that then they would hand cut away the nap in rows, thus cordoury.

Velvet was always made of silk (or, rarer, also of wool), you're right about that.

Closest I've seen to corduroy in period sources is this one:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/workbox/tex16-48.jpg

But that is merely a velvet not being cut yet.... It's not hard to develope the idea of corduroy from the picture above, and I would almost be surprised in no-one thought of it during the Renaissance... But yes, I have yet to actually SEE it.

Jennifer Thompson has made a lovely green outfit in a corduroy/cut velvet fabric:
http://www.festiveattyre.com/gallery/1570s/index.html

I like how she's dealt with the stripes. But though not corduroy, you could also get inspired by this:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/allori1580-90c.jpg

Best of luck!

[gem]

I love corduroy!  I have used it as one side of every one of my reversible bodices.  It's really, really easy to work with, has a great texture, and just looks great.  It's also reasonably affordable, which is a plus!  Because it's so easy to work with, I decided to use it for the French hood for the Promenade gown (in a very fine wale).  Lady Rosalind, who is on cast at Des Moines, wears a court gown of scarlet fine wale corduroy, and it's *gorgeous.*

One from last season, in very fine wale

One that I *didn't* make, in a wider wale

As for the direction--I like to make mine so that they're softest if you pet downward, although (like velvet, velveteen, and other napped fabrics), they say it looks "richer" if you use it soft petting *upward.*

[Lady Rosalind]

Why, thank you, Gem! 

I was just about to chime in that there is a notation in the Margo Anderson instructions that says there was a similar fabric to corduroy during the Renaissance that was called "mackado" (I think I have the spelling right. The instructions are at home.) I simply tell people that's what it is, if asked. Except I am usually never asked - everyone assumes it's velvet.

And yes, the wales should be vertical... 

(and I am STILL looking for the same shade of scarlet corduroy to remake my bodice, as it doesn't fit properly. I've been looking since fall of '06! I must have lucked out when I found it originally!)

[Merry]

So can I determine from this discussion, that while cordoroy as we know it today was not used, cut velvet was and as such, it makes for great garb.  BUT...is it restricted to the noble classes?  Should middle and lower classes wear it?  That is where the debating gets interesting in my circles.

[Lady Kathleen of Olmsted]

For Historical Accuracy, cut  Silk Velvets and Cotton Velvets were limited to the Upper Nobility and Royalty. That also was the norm for trims of Gold and specific colors.

If one from the Upper Middle Class(well to do Merchants)could afford the nicer fabrics for clothing, taxes had to be paid. That was where Sumptuary laws came into play. While members of Elizabeth's court were expected to dress finely, while not outdressing her.

I still do a lot of reading up on that.

[Master James]

For Historical Accuracy, cut  Silk Velvets and Cotton Velvets were limited to the Upper Nobility and Royalty. That also was the norm for trims of Gold and specific colors.

If one from the Upper Middle Class(well to do Merchants)could afford the nicer fabrics for clothing, taxes had to be paid. That was where Sumptuary laws came into play. While members of Elizabeth's court were expected to dress finely, while not outdressing her.

I still do a lot of reading up on that.

Yes you are correct on the Sumptuary Laws, however many times these were not enforced and if they were, it was considered a badge of honor to be able to pay it.  So to the question about if lower classes can wear it I would answer like this, only a very wealthy upper middle class person would be able to wear cut velvet, cordoruy, makado or whatever you want to call it because of the expense of the cloth and the Sumptuary Laws.  If you feel you character meets that criteria then I say go for it.  My first character and name sake on this forum was just that, a very wealthy upper middle class master mercer (fabric importer/seller) and therefore could afford it and did where it.

[Kate XXXXXX]

Remember also that there was a HUGE industry based on used clothing.  Fabric of all sorts was much more expensive and time consuming to produce at this time, so garments that the wealthy were finished with were sold on, given to favored servants, and remade for other folk lower down the pecking order.  What had been fairly sumptuous fabrics would turn up a long way down the social scales at third or fourth hand...

[Merry]

Remember also that there was a HUGE industry based on used clothing.  Fabric of all sorts was much more expensive and time consuming to produce at this time, so garments that the wealthy were finished with were sold on, given to favored servants, and remade for other folk lower down the pecking order.  What had been fairly sumptuous fabrics would turn up a long way down the social scales at third or fourth hand...

Good Point!  ....scraps of finer fabrics or lace would find their way into a lady's maids dress, bodice or kerchief.....and it continued to trickle down to the lower households, and finally peasantry, but by then they were showing wear.

[gypsylakat]

Antique that fabric! beat it with chains and rip it!

[Katie Bookwench]

I went back and re-read the initial post, and from what I can tell, HA was not a requirement. So I will put forth the following:

Corduroy is a good wearing, sturdy fabric, and makes attractive middle to upper middle class faire garb if you're not overly concerned about HA. I've used it extensively while on Cast at my home Faire, and with the wear and tear I've put mine through, I've been really happy with how it's held up.

Fine whale easily passes for velvet or velveteen at 30 paces. It also seems to have a better 'hand' than larger whale pieces.

Now... as to the whale -- I've used it in all different directions!

I cut my corduroy doublet back pieces diagonally, so that there was a chevron pattern at the center back when it was constructed. I did the same for the front center pieces. I had a bodice with a patchwork stomacher in different shades of olive, all corduroy - and each piece had wales going in different directions - it was generally symetrical, but still, all the wales were at a 45 degree angle from each other.

I don't know if the whale can be seen in this shot, but here is the doublet -- the skirt is of large whale (home dec cord) with the vertical stripe (center) and the 6" guard on the bottom is fine while cord. This was one of my first skirts to have cartridge pleating, and probably the second middle class garb attempts I'd done myself.

The picture is the the THIRD pic on the top row right.

http://bookwench.renspace.com/gallery/view_gallery.one?pid=244275