Florentine/Italian documentation question

[gem]

So I'm still working on the gown inspired by Lynn McMaster's Italian ensemble, which we all agreed we just think is completely delicious.

What I'm wondering is, does anyone have documentation/portrait evidence for a period overgown like that?  While it's certainly similar to early Florentine overgowns in terms of the fabric and aspects of the silhouette (with the higher waist and open sides), it doesn't seem to be cut like the gowns we see in Ghirlandaio.  The open-sided gowns (giornea?) don't tend to have any demarcation/seam at the waist... but the high-waisted gowns (chioppas?) all seem to have closed sides. (Do you all see what I'm seeing?) But, then, it's clearly nothing like anything from any other Italian era/region, either.

Anyway--help me out!  What was Lady McMasters looking at when she designed that gorgeous thing?

Gramercy!

[sealion]

I agree with what you are saying about the Ghirlando painting but I don't think Lynn McMaster's overgown has a waist seam. I think it is simply cinched in by the belt?

[gem]

Ok, you got me thinking!  This looks like a seam to me, doesn't it?

[sealion]

Well, ya, that image does look like a seam. lol Honestly, I would do it without the underbust seam if you are making the open sided giornea because a) as you've pointed out period art seems to support it, and b) I'm lazy and take the easier way out when I can get away with it.

[gem]

LOL!!  The Baroness and I discussed that once, and decided we'd both go with the seam, b/c we'd hate to be fussing with the fit of the thing all day!

HOWEVER, my question was actually less about construction ('cause I'm just gonna do that however I want! LOL) and more about documentation.  I have a costuming diary attached to my author website, and when I put this project up, I'd like to have a good image or two to support it.  I'd like to at least look like I know what I'm talking about, doncha know! LOL

[Kate XXXXXX]

I seem to remember some discussion of this before...  Can't remember what the definitive answer was.  Why not email her and just ask?

[Cilean]

So I'm still working on the gown inspired by Lynn McMaster's Italian ensemble, which we all agreed we just think is completely delicious.

What I'm wondering is, does anyone have documentation/portrait evidence for a period overgown like that?  While it's certainly similar to early Florentine overgowns in terms of the fabric and aspects of the silhouette (with the higher waist and open sides), it doesn't seem to be cut like the gowns we see in Ghirlandaio.  The open-sided gowns (giornea?) don't tend to have any demarcation/seam at the waist... but the high-waisted gowns (chioppas?) all seem to have closed sides. (Do you all see what I'm seeing?) But, then, it's clearly nothing like anything from any other Italian era/region, either.

Anyway--help me out!  What was Lady McMasters looking at when she designed that gorgeous thing?

Gramercy!

Seek and ye shall recieve!
http://www.sword.net/jessica/firenze/PP-GiorneaDoc.pdf

http://www.florentine-persona.com/gold_giornea.html

http://cadieux.mediumaevum.com/florentine2.html

http://www.sword.net/jessica/


Here is a glossary of terms for the Italian City States


http://www.florentine-persona.com/glossary.html


http://www.italiadonna.it/public/percorsi/01052/0105244a.htm




I hope this helps you out!

Cilean

[operafantomet]

What I'm wondering is, does anyone have documentation/portrait evidence for a period overgown like that?  While it's certainly similar to early Florentine overgowns in terms of the fabric and aspects of the silhouette (with the higher waist and open sides), it doesn't seem to be cut like the gowns we see in Ghirlandaio.  The open-sided gowns (giornea?) don't tend to have any demarcation/seam at the waist... but the high-waisted gowns (chioppas?) all seem to have closed sides. (Do you all see what I'm seeing?) But, then, it's clearly nothing like anything from any other Italian era/region, either.

Oh, I see what you mean.

The overgowns with split sides do seem to hang loose in the waist as well, no belt, no seams (like these:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/bologne/franciabologna1504.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/ghirlandaio1486g.jpg )

I think the latter (the 1486 Ghirlandaio one) might have been her reference? They do look quite a bit alike, apart from the belt in the waist and the even longer length of the portrait dress. It even look like there's some sort of seam in the front in the portrait dress.

There might be some other Florentine references I'm missing that Lynn McMaster has used, but the style on the overdress makes me think of contemporary Venetian fashion as well - the rare style of a short fitted bodices (often with V-opening) with short, side-split skirts over a longer underskirt or undergown:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/carpaccio1480s.jpg

I have two more photos of this style; one is of a standing woman. I'll see if I can find them... The lady with the handkerchief in the Carpaccio painting doesn't seem to wear an overdress; rather a green dress with yellow sleeves, and with a yellow overskirt with a split going all the way up to the bodice. You can see that the yellow skirt continues in the back, so it's not just an apron. It's mostly the short length and the border trims that made me think of this when I saw the lovely Lynn McMaster creation.

Now, let's see if I can find that other photo of the standing woman...


ETA: you could email her (Lynn McMaster, that is) and ask?

[TiaLD77]

Hi Gem!
When I made my Florentine (ish) dress I e-maild Mrs. McMasters about the lovely gown & if I remember correctly her gown is not 100% HA, but is based on  Period Patterns #41.
Hope that helps!

[gem]

Operafan and Tial--thanks so much, that *is* helpful!

Operafan, that Carpaccio of the "two courtesans" was the closest I could find, as well. 

[isabelladangelo]

I think it might be based off this sketch:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/carpstud1.jpg

You can see the open sides, a v front, and a possible waist seam. 

I've interpreted the courtesans outfit as an apron.

[gem]

Isabella, that's *fantastic!*  How did you track that down?  I'm guessing from the shorthand name of the image (Carpstud) that it's a study by Carpaccio?  (Btw, that list of images is fabulous!)

Does it look like the sides of her skirt are tied together?

[Silverbee]

I can't help with the research/photos.  However, just to put my two cents in, it looks like the McMaster's dress has a belt made of the same fabric as the dress with embellishments added (cording, beads, etc.). She may have added it because the open sided dress may not stay put as it should when moving around, etc.

[isabelladangelo]

I remembered seeing an outfit like that and figured it must have been up on Lady Bella's site, http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/artgallery1b.htm

She has some great images. 

[gem]

She has some great images. 

You are *so* not kidding.  I think I need this.

[isabelladangelo]

That's the sketch that inspired this dress from the movie Ever After.

[operafantomet]

Haven't been able to find the standing Venetian woman I had in mind, but I took a closer look at another one:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/carpaccioven.jpg

Again it's something that looks like an apron in front, but when inspecting it closer you can see that it's in the back as well - making it a sort of overskirt with high splits on each side. The lower sleeves are very similar to Lynn McMaster's ensemble, but the bodice is different again. No overgown-feeling to it, no V split. But at least there is a waist seam!

This one had the "correct" bodice and sleeves, but not the split skirt:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/carpaccio1495b.jpg

isabelladangelo - I agree. That sketch is wonderful, and quite close to the dress/overdress. I always saw it as Florentine, but when I started looking at reference photos it struck me just as much as Venetian.

(ETA: I just re-read my post, and it looked like I thought the drawing posted originally was Florentine.. That is not the case. I meant to say I always saw Lynn McMaster's outfit as Florentine, but when looking closer at similar examples from the art, it appeared more Venetian in style)

[Cilean]

Hey Gem,

I have seen this in person, and it is a jeweled belt that holds the giornea or overgown.  It is an upholstery weight fabric so it hung to the ground very well.
and when you put a belt on to hold the front? I noticed that when you walk the back of the giornea gives you a great sweeping look!


I hope that helps!
Cilean