Need construction help with small skirt openings in front of gowns.

[Artemisia]

I don't like way I'm constructing the front opening of the skirt at the bodice point.
It kinda stays open when closed and shows the chemise underneath.
(click for bigger pic)



In most paintings I don't even see a front opening.



How did they do it? Did they just do a really good job at hiding the opening? Most painters decided not to add the opening? Is it really a skirt (longshot)?

How would I go about constructing this opening so it will, at least, stay closed? Right now I just cut into the fabric and trim it with a bias cut of the same fabric which is probably why it tends to stay open. Or do I really even need it? I haven't even played with that idea.

[LadySeasan]

hmm, im not an expert at all, but i usually make good with my garb.

ive actually never seen an opening like yours, so im not quite sure how to handle that
but if it were me, generally my bodice and skirt are two different pieces, so that is no opening at all

[TiaLD77]

an easy fix for your already made gowns is a hook & eye,(and the route I usually go)  or a "modesty" placket that can fastened behind the opening?

for the pictures you posted I think they may have been 2 peice constructed, but I could be wrong 

[operafantomet]

I think the skirts were close independently in front (with either hooks and eyes, ties, buttons or whatever), and not just hanging loose from the bodice. For the most, anyway. Take a look at this - it has an open (or halfway open) bodice, but the skirt is still perfectly gathered in front:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/pbordone.jpg

There are also dresses where the bottom of the lace is not even meeting, while the skirts are still perfectly closed:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/tintoretto1580s.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/schooloftizian1570s.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/tintoretto1570s.jpg

So yeah, I'm thiking that the skirt closing is independent of the bodice closing.


But I have actually seen one example of a not-so-perfectly-closed skirt:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/bordoned.jpg
(ETA: I just realized it's not too visible in my poor photo-of-painting link above, but it's quite visible if you visit Sotherby's and use the zoom function: http://www.sothebys.com/app/live/lot/LotDetail.jsp?lot_id=159463951 )


So... all in all you're period both with a perfect closure and a small gap...  But if you want to ret rid of the gap, I suggest some sort of physical closing for the skirt, or the insert of a modesty panel.

For future projects, you could add an extra inch to the front of the skirt, sew the pleats to a waistband, and hook the waistband together (either a bit off-center, as it would be more covered by the bodice bottom), or in front. I did the off-center thing for my orange Raphael dress (you can barely see the front skirt here, but still.. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/raphaelgown/raphaelj2.jpg ), while I'm still debating what to do on the Venetian dress ( http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/venetian/vensept4.jpg ). As of now it's just gathered, but I have to do it each time I put it on. Too much work, so I'm thinking off-center-waistband-solution for this one too.

[Artemisia]

I'll look through my stash. If I don't have extra fabric I'll hook and eye the existing gowns. Thanks guys. Also an afterthought: I should just make the opening a lot smaller. 

An offcenter waistband. I actually thought of something like this but I wasn't sure if it would work, how to go about it or if other costumers have even thought of that idea. So I'm not that crazy after all. Operafantomet, I would so love it if you could post a close-up picture of the waistband. I'm still confused about the distribution of the extra skirt bulk when the bodice is laced shut.

Funny how the Bordone paintings actually show the skirt gap. I took a closer look at the pink gown I posted and see the same thing in "zoom" view: http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/work?workNumber=ng674

and even curiouser is that the red venetian doesn't show anything like that at all. Though the painting is only attributed to Bordone: http://i38.tinypic.com/242aqle.jpg

It's just so frustrating and rewarding figuring out how they did it.

[Adriana Rose]

It looks like there was a little bit extra over the area that you are having trouble with...
Maybe a little bit of a modesty flap on your next gown, but for the current problem a hook eye might be the best bet

[isabelladangelo]

The reason the gap isn't nearly as apparent in the later styles us because of the way the bodice is constructed.  The flat bodice (no point) normally has a bit of extra material near the waist line.  You can see it in the picture Operafan posted.  If you look at the gap, you will also see a piece of the skirt that has a diagonal edge.   If you do this when there is a point, you decrease the chances you'll see a gap.

If you look at the extant German gown (different style but same idea) you'll see how the bodice and skirt were attached but left it so you couldn't see a gap. 

http://www.virtue.to/guest_authors/hungarian.html

Basically, they were sewn together but with the opening of the skirt to one side of the bodice.

[Artemisia]

::looks closer at Operafantomet's pic postings::

Now I see the extra bit of fabric on the skirt!

There's that gown again. I keep seeing it over and over.
It's calling me...

[Artemisia]

I found a reference to skirt openings in "The Little Bodice Book" by Bonnie Ambrose

"Joining bodice to skirt: Use 1" grosgrain for waistband. Cut ribbon 6" longer than waist length. Pin pleated or gathered skirt onto waistband. insert a 4" wide by 11" long placket at back skirt seam. Machine stitch. Handstitch grosgrain waistband and skirt to bodice at waistline. Use buttonhole twist for strength. Avoid sewing thru to the outside bodice fabric. Concentrate stitches on top of darts and seams. Stitch waistband to bodice from back dart to back dart only. This allows for easier lacing and waistband adjustments."

I don't understand the need for the placket.
I understand not sewing all the way to the front as a means to get into the gown as long as you make the skirt just a little wider. Then I could hook the front off-center as Operafantomet mentioned.

Any thoughts on this?