Immoral Supportasse

[Minch]

Is there anyone here who has made a supportasse for a large standing ruff who can recommend or provide a source for instructions on building one?  I am talking about wire, and a frame that would be detachable from a bodice, not just about copious amounts of starch, or the instructions that I found to make a supportasse out of (shudder) cardstock. 

I am trying to construct something like this:
http://www.blackworkarchives.com/art/ElizabethBrydges_lg.jpg

Or, more accurately, like the one pictured here:
http://www.hbo.com/films/elizabeth/img/photosandvideo/slideshow/slideshow_17.jpg

Thanks!

[FaireMare]

Molly Mishap and Syrilla are both the resident Experts on this.

Sadly, we had a wonderful thread on this on the old boards, but it is long gone.

[Minch]

It is sad that the awesome old thread is lost...  but maybe we can happily make a new wonderful thread about this.

It's one of those things I am certain I can figure out, given enough time and enough millinery wire...  but why not ask for help and advice straight out of the gate?

[mollymishap]

WARNING: LOOOONG!!!

Google had the old thread still in cache.  Here it is, with some edits & my bold added to distinguish between posts:

ladyelizabeth
Red the twin, Queen Elizabeth, Red bud the fairy..
358 Posts Posted - 12/17/2007 :  15:08:14 

I am wanting to make one of those huge Queen Elizabeth neck fans. I have a smaller feather one, but she often times wore two. I was going to model mine off the HBO series one in the pic below.She's wearing two in this pic, so I'm talking about the one in the back.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7cc36b3127cceb27b8764209000000026100AbtGjRqzcNWIg

My idea is to make a wire frame first. The wires will go down the back of the bodice and the front of the bodice to hold it in place. Then I will stretch some see thru white fabric across it and then decorate it with jewels and such that will either be super glued on or will be sewn on.

My question is, do you think this frame is accurate? And what do you think of my plan to accomplish it?

FaireMare
Moderator of Threads
7613 Posts Posted - 12/17/2007 :  16:10:27

IT is called a Staning RUff. There was a discussion on this just last summer. Do a search for "Standing Neck Ruff" or "Standing Ruff"

Jubilee
She with the most Garb
720 Posts Posted - 12/17/2007 :  19:34:43 

I think the picture you posted is supposed to mimic the fairy wings and ruff of one of these portraits:
http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/Elizabeth18.jpg
http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/Elizabeth14.jpg

The "wings" were common in the later half of the 16th c through out Europe. It was used as a cape/headdress in many cases. You can probably get a better idea from these:
http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/Elizabeth11.jpg
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/ManuVen10.JPG
http://www.elizabethan-portraits.com/VenetianLady.jpg

The bend in the "fan" in the earlier portraits I've posted is to make them look like wings. Elizabeth I was known as the fairy queen and, later in her life, wore outfits to emulate that. Most people I know who have attempted the wire frame use an old wire hanger and straighten it before making it curve slightly to give the correct shape.

Captmarga
Corp, SRG. Keeper of the Costume Closet
204 Posts Posted - 12/18/2007 :  00:04:55
    quote:
    The bend in the "fan" in the earlier portraits I've posted is to make them look like wings. Elizabeth I was known as the fairy queen and, later in her life, wore outfits to emulate that. Most people I know who have attempted the wire frame use an old wire hanger and straighten it before making it curve slightly to give the correct shape.

Easier than using a coat-hanger, though, is to go to Lowes or Home Depot, and get some thin copper tubing. It is strong enough to hold the lace and any jewels, but much easier to bend. Coat-hangers often will not straighten out completely. We've used the copper wire (about $1-2 per foot) for wings before, that were long and still had enough to drop down the back of the outfit.

Capt. Marga

FaireMare
Moderator of Threads
7613 Posts Posted - 12/18/2007 :  16:03:15 

Great pics and examples, but she did ask for help making one.

I have asked Syrilla to comment. She has made these and being a professional costumer, she has a plethera(sp?) of knowledge.

Mollymishap has also made the standing Ruffs as well.

mollymishap
Advanced Member
603 Posts Posted - 12/18/2007 :  21:11:34 

CAUTION: Scholarly Content With Obscure Terms To Follow Proceed ONLY With Extreme Caution

I think what you're asking for help with is the "veil" or "whisk" or "wings", right? Because there are actually three layers to that "look", the first being the actual standing ruff (or "Medici Collar"), then a "supportasse" or "rebato" underneath that to hold it up, and then finally the big, huge veil (which I've also heard referred to as "wings" or "whisk" tho I think those are modern terms) behind it all.

If I understood you correctly, it sounds like you're on the right track with your idea, that's pretty much how I made mine, except that I don't have any wires down the front of my bodice (OUCH!). The only thing(s) that are tied in the front are the Medici Collar and the Suportasse, and then discreetly with ribbon that attaches to the inside of my bodice. The Veil is just a long piece of wire bent up into the wing shape and then tucked into the back of the bodice and then covered in a nice fabric.

If you want "authentic" style, it's actually a veil with a wired edge, but don't ask me HOW it was supposed to stay in that shape for long. I think the shape we see often in the movies is a modern convention, IMHO.

If you want to see my get-up, go to http://www.myfairelady.com/contract-queens/fullsize-picture.php?id=1

Now, if what you wanted was how to make the other parts, here are some how-to's: http://www.vertetsable.com/demos_ruffs.htm One style of ruffs that's set into a neckband.

http://www.mooharpist.net/ruffmake1.html Another style. (This is basically how I made my own Medici Collar).

And here's a link to a website with a picture of a suportasse/rebato --it's the basic shape that's important: http://www.art-estherbrassac.com/anglais/themes_a/cloth_r2.html You can make yours out of some cardboard or even plastic canvas that you've covered in some nice fabric or you can make one out of wire spokes radiating outwards. Mine is made of wire. I think SyRilla's is, too. Also, check out the "ruff" that viola is wearing when she's presented to the Queen in Shakespeare in Love, it's more of an embellished suportasse than a ruff, but oh, so preeeety! The suportasse is really not meant to be seen, kinda like the underwire in an underwire bra. It's just there to support.

But anyway, here is another how-to for that kind of "ruff": http://www.farthingales.on.ca/elizabethan_wired_ruff.html

HTH. Post pictures of your work, will you?

SyRilla
Time... Where, what, More?
1038 Posts Posted - 12/18/2007 :  21:30:55

I based some of my standing ruffs and whisk or wired suportase on the Rainbow portrait (students copy), and others like it. If you look in detail you will find a large wired sructure with an thinner inner wired support.

I have done a supportase out of flat metal, wire and just boning. The flat metal held up the longest and in the strongest gust of wind.

There is no one way to make one of these. I have made different versions using everything from garden edging to just bending wire, and then welding the cross sections together. The easiest way is to just bend heavy wire as an outside wire and sew the fabric to edges. I made mine like a harness so as to remove and not damage the dress or poke into me.

A major issue to remember is wind. Those things catch wind, and must be made moveable or they will tear. The better and more natural the fabric the less problems you will have.

This is a persons version of a wire suportase.
http://www.farthingales.on.ca/elizabethan_wired_ruff.html
My metal suportase

My wired whisk

SyRilla
Time... Where, what, More?
1038 Posts Posted - 12/18/2007 :  21:47:50 

http://chiptalbert.com/photoalbum/displayimage.php?album=56&pos=14

FaireMare
Moderator of Threads
7613 Posts Posted - 12/19/2007 :  09:42:49

See.. I knew two resident Experts would jump in and help you out! THank you ladies.

50 Huzzah Points to Molly and Syrillia!!!!

ladyelizabeth
Red the twin, Queen Elizabeth, Red bud the fairy..
358 Posts Posted - 12/19/2007 :  11:15:58 

WOW!!! This is so very helpful!!!! I now feel like this may be accomplished without hundreds of mistakes!! I'll certainly post pics when I've finished...

FaireMare
Moderator of Threads
7613 Posts Posted - 12/19/2007 :  11:35:26 

Thank you MiLady! That is what we are here for and We all most certainly look forward to seeing the finished project.

I just wanted to add: Do be kind to our "queens" who are helping. Their own designs are their creative property.

ladyelizabeth
Red the twin, Queen Elizabeth, Red bud the fairy..
358 Posts Posted - 12/20/2007 :  16:02:55 

I'm not sure I could recreate their designs anyhow... I kind of like original things of my own, but getting a basic idea and picture of what has been done and how it was done will be an excellent start to be able to design my own from!!

FaireMare
Moderator of Threads
7613 Posts Posted - 12/21/2007 :  10:08:03 

Exactly! Keep a "dress Diary and post it on the "Dress Diary" Section for us!
Thanks!

ladyelizabeth
Red the twin, Queen Elizabeth, Red bud the fairy..
358 Posts Posted - 01/02/2008 :  16:15:37 

I finished it!!!! Below is a pic of the finished product:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7cc08b3127cceb28604ce4f8c00000026100AbtGjRqzcNWIg

THese are a few pics of the work in progress. I had some wire on a spool at home from a lumber place bought long ago. I used it to make a frame. I did not sotter anything together, just bent the wire around in a loop to make it stay in certain places. Then I stretched the fabric over it and pinned it in place. Then I put the pretty gold ribbon over all the wire areas to cover up the wire. then I had sewed all the ribbon together. The ribbon is on both the front and back of the whisk.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7cc08b3127cceb28601be0f6600000025130AbtGjRqzcNWIg
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7cc08b3127cceb2861aed4fa000000026100AbtGjRqzcNWIg

In retrospect, upon wearing it, I definetely need to add an attachment to the bodice to hold it all in place. Also, my next bodices will need to have a higher back on them which will also help with holding it in place. It stays mostly, but with long wear and winds, I will definetely need to secure it more tightly. I'm not positive yet exactly how I'm going to make it attach, but maybe with eyelets and ribbon??

GypsyLaKat
The future pink pirate of doom!
402 Posts Posted - 01/02/2008 :  18:10:31

Not sure if this would work or not, but advice i got a great deal of the time with fairy wing stability was to make a u shape from the bottom and that would slide down into the bodice back...

FaireMare
Moderator of Threads
7613 Posts Posted - 01/02/2008 :  21:29:42

I have heard eyeltes, eye hooks, Velcro.... )

I am wondering if the 'cage' could be a bit more stout and give it more stability as well.

But, You far exceeded what I could have done!

Mythrin
A part of the Court of Misrule
435 Posts Posted - 01/03/2008 :  10:45:27

Here is an other resource
[ url=http://www.farthingales.on.ca/elizabethan_wired_ruff.html]Farthingales[ / url ]

this new way of posting links is not working for me

ladyelizabeth
Red the twin, Queen Elizabeth, Red bud the fairy..
358 Posts Posted - 01/03/2008 :  15:19:58 

The cage is pretty stout already and I do have 3 long pieces of wire that are wrapped with ribbon which will fit down the back of the bodice. The problem is making it stay in the front of the bodice. I had originally put little loops on the front pieces and died it around myself with ribbon, but I think I need to physically attach the front to the bodice in some fashion. I don't think hooks are sound enough, and snaps aren't period, so the only thing I could think of was eyelets and ribbon.

mollymishap
Advanced Member
603 Posts Posted - 01/03/2008 :  21:44:00 

I guess there's three ways to go about this as I see it (if I've understood correctly that the issue is that your "whisk" is too floppy?)

1- Use stiffer wire and bolster up the perimeter and the supports that go down the back of your bodice and/or

2- Re-work your design so that the "whisk" is more of a "wired veil" with the ends of the wiring tucking under your armpits, like in this portrait and/or

3- Shorten the spokes with the beading that radiate outwards to just one or two beads. They look heavy and could be contributing to the dragging down issue.

Just remember that if you're going for "accuracy" that the whisk/veil thing was a separate item from the ruff and suportasse, and as far as I've seen in portraits, did not attach to the front of the bodice (it just *looks* like it does because of the angle of the wiring on the edge of the veil, take a close look at the links in Jubilee's post and you'll see what I mean).

So anyway, the point is you probably don't want it attaching to the front of your bodice because that would be a less "accurate" look, and would look like you were just wearing an extra-large suportasse behind your ruff.

Now, if you're taking poetic license that's another thing, but your original post did say you wanted HA feedback. If you decide to go ahead and attach it to the front of your bodice after all, I wouldn't worry about not using snaps because they're not period. No one is going to see them at that point anyway, do you see what I mean?

P.S. Mythrin, try editing your post and just adding quotation marks before and after the url.

___________________________

So that's what was in cache.  I thought there was more discussion, but Google only saves the first page I think, so the above was all that was to be found. 

Anyway, so I tried going in and converting all the links with the right code so they still work, but if some don't, just cut & paste and then they should.

I realize after reading the old thread that it was more on the veil than the suportasse, but if the above doesn't answer your questions, please ask again! 

[Minch]

Loooong is goooood.

I will wade through this and do what I can.  I have read this one a few times: 

http://www.farthingales.on.ca/elizabethan_wired_ruff.html

And found it useful in terms of figuring out how to make a pattern to put one together.  I did see it included in the thread.

Perhaps over the summer, when my life settles a bit, I can play with it to see what I come up with.  If I come up with anything world-changing, I promise to share.  Thanks, folks.

[FaireMare]

WOW...what wonderful work!