News:

Welcome to the Renaissancefestival.com Forums!  Please post an introduction after signing up!

For an updated map of Ren Fests check out The Ren List at http://www.therenlist.com!

The Chat server is now running again, just select chat on the menu!

Main Menu

Kilts Invented by an Englishman

Started by Magister, May 18, 2008, 11:44:51 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Magister

There was a story published today in the UK Telegraph that referenced a newly published book by a prominent English historian.  In it he states that the kilt was invented by an Englishman, and Scottish history is riddled with "myth and falsehood".

For a link to the story go here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1982040/Kilts-invented-by-English-in-Lord-Dacre's-book.html?source=rss

The full text of the article is below:

Kilts invented by English in Lord Dacre's book
By Simon Johnson, Scottish Political Correspondent
Last Updated: 7:22PM BST 18/05/2008

Kilts were invented by an Englishman, according to an eminent historian who claims Scots history is riddled with "myth and falsehood".
Men wearing kilts
JAMES FRASER
Lord Dacre claims that the 'myth' of the ancient kilt was perpetuated by historians to provide an identifiable symbol for Scots

The last book written by the late Lord Dacre of Glanton also states that the Declaration of Arbroath, which confirmed Scotland's independence in 1320, is plagued with inaccuracies and details of "imaginary" kings.

He argues that Scotland's literary, cultural and political traditions, which are claimed to date back from Roman times, were largely invented in the 18th century.

The book, titled The Invention of Scotland: Myth and History, is to be published at the end of this month, five years after Lord Dacre died of cancer.
Article continues
advertisement

Its controversial findings debunk many of the cultural arguments for Scottish independence, and are likely to fuel the current heated political debate over the country's constitutional future.

Lord Dacre, formerly Hugh Trevor-Roper, concludes in the book: "In Scotland, it seems to me, myth has played a far more important part in history than it has in England.

"Indeed, I believe the whole history of Scotland has been coloured by myth; and that myth, in Scotland, is never driven out by reality, or by reason, but lingers on until another myth has been discovered to replace it."

He claims that the "myth" of the ancient Highland dress was perpetuated by historians to provide a symbol by which Scots could be universally identified, as well as to support the country's textile industry.

The traditional dress of the Highlanders was in fact a long Irish shirt and a cloak or plaid, he states, and only the higher classes had woven in stripes and colours creating tartan.

"The kilt's appearance can, in fact, be dated within a few years," he reveals in the book.

"For it did not evolve, it was invented. Its inventor was an English Quaker from Lancashire, Thomas Rawlinson."

He claims Mr Rawlinson decided to shorten belted plaids after workmen in the Highlands, where he was staying, said they were uncomfortable.

Scots are also accused in the book of fabricating their own literary tradition, culminating in the publication of The Works of Ossian.

These have been claimed to have been translated from ancient sources in Gaelic about the lives of Celtic heroes.

But historians have long suspected them of being a figment of the imagination of James Macpherson, the 18th-century Scottish poet who claimed to have translated them.

Lord Dacre also declares that when the Scots were looking for a writer and poet to rival Shakespeare following the Act of Union in 1707, they found nothing.

This led to ancient writings being forged and passed off as Scottish literature.

He concludes: "It was natural that Scots, seeking compensation for the end of their independent history and politics, should turn to discover and appreciate their native literature.

"Unfortunately when they looked for it, they could not find it. There was none."

Lord Dacre was one of the world's most respected historians prior to his death, and was professor of Modern History at Oxford University for 23 years.

But his reputation was damaged when he claimed that forged diaries, purportedly written by Adolf Hitler and serialised in the Sunday Times, were authentic.

Michael Fry, an eminent Scottish historian, claimed Lord Dacre was not "a very reliable guide to Scottish history", Tartan was worn in the Middle Ages and his claims about the kilt "prove absolutely nothing."

"Lots of things emerge in history and just because we can't pin down their origins it doesn't follow from that everything about it is phoney," Mr Fry said.

"There is a distinguished school of medieval Scottish literature, and poetry in something that is recognisably Scots was being written in the 14th century."
Magister
Moderator: Crafting Corner, Buy + Sale + Trade

groomporter

#1
Except for the English invention claim, I'm afraid I don't see anything really new there in regard to kilts. For twenty years my old Scottish group has been teaching people that the modern kilt appears to date from the 1700's, -as opposed to the "belted plaid" sometimes called a "great kilt" which goes back to the late 1500's or early 1600's. And it's well known by scholars that tartans were not really assigned to specific clans until relatively modern times.
When you die can you donate your body to pseudo-science?

brier patch charlie

Just the same old hot air. Nothing new!
Charles Coleman

Malcolm

The English have always claimed that the only real history in the British Isles was English. They don't even like to admit that the Duke of Wellington was Irish.
YOS,
Malcolm Abernethy
Knight Commander, Order of the Blue Ribbon
IBRSC #1272
1608 Society
"Be the best you can be... considering."

Eoghan

This article is filled with quite a bit of sensationalism and falsehood, but there are some grains of truth in it. Rawlinson did introduce the tailored kilt to his factory workers. However we don't know if this was anything more than just the phillabeag that Scottish were already wearing or if it was truly a sewn garment. It was part of a natural progression, however, and not a completely new garment. The earliest visual evidence of a great kilt we have is a 1635 portrait of Sir Duncan Campbell of Lochow. Prior to that there are descriptions by visitors to the region of a garment that could be a great kilt but is most likely a simple plaid. These great kilts increased in popularity up until Scottish culture was outlawed.

I would highly recommend anyone interested in the subject pick up a copy of Matt Newsome's excellent book/pamphlet on early highland dress.

SirRichardBear

Following the logic in the agrument about kilts then it can equal be said that pants were invented in the late 19th century by the American Elias Howe.  After all we know pants have zippers and it wasn't till 1851 that Howe invented the first zipper so no one worn pants before the late 19th century.    All clothing evolves and can be traced back centures kilts, pants, shirts dress they all started out different.  Socks were at one time just tubes open at both ends very different from what we think of socks today.  But people still worn socks all the same.

If I was more into conspiracy theory I'd say this is just one more example of the English trying to wip out all traces of Welsh, Scottish, and Irish culture from the Islands, like they have been doing for a 1000 years.
Beware of him that is slow to anger: He is angry for something, and will not be pleased for nothing.
Benjamin Franklin

Zardoz

"Pants are for guys with ugly legs"
Member of Clan McLotofus,
IBRSC# 1619,
As seen in Renaissance Magazine

Rakish Rogue

I was always under the impression that after Queen Victoria & Prince Albert lifted the Act of Proscription 1747 ban, English tailors were responsible for the "renovations" to highland dress which resulted in today's modern kilts.

As I said, that's just my interpretation.  I don't know how accurate or true it is.

Robert Phoenix

He argues that Scotland's literary, cultural and political traditions, which are claimed to date back from Roman times, were largely invented in the 18th century
So basically he is saying that kilts are actually invented by the Italians.  Being half Italian I might find that helpful when my full blooded italian mother says "Italians don't wear kilts!"

Poldugarian Warrior

That's bull, if anyone besides the Celts or Scots should be credited with inventing the kilt it's the Romans. I mean for the most part they wore tunics, and leather skirts, I can't remember the technical term for this type of armor/garb, but it's like a kilt but made up of several tassets of leather that hang down from a belt. And one day they decided let's wear something lighter and more comfortable not just for battle. And I think that's where they came up with the idea for the kilt. That guy is wrong.

Poldugarian Warrior

I mean if I sounded mad on the last post, Well, sort of. I have nothing against the English, but this guy just thought he could rewrite history without looking at the facts. And trying to leave out the fact that The Scots and Celts were the most oppressed people by the Romans because they didn't readily convert to the Roman pagan religions/cults nor Christianity right away when Rome had converted, but the English did right away. And so it was with their clothing they wore the kilt based on Roman skirts which basically was forced upon them. In actuality, I think the Celts and Scots wore leggings/pants before kilts because even the Gauls and Germanic tribes wore pants. At a time when the Romans and Greeks still wore the long robes and skirts with tunics. So the kilt became a garment which conformed to the Roman style, when they conqured England and Scotland and parts of Ireland. but had it's own style be having a tartan dyed into it.

SirRichardBear

Quote from: Rakish Rogue on May 27, 2008, 08:35:19 AM
I was always under the impression that after Queen Victoria & Prince Albert lifted the Act of Proscription 1747 ban, English tailors were responsible for the "renovations" to highland dress which resulted in today's modern kilts.

As I said, that's just my interpretation.  I don't know how accurate or true it is.

The English recruited many highlanders to fight in North American in the six year war better known in America as the French-Indian wars.  One of the reason so many Highlanders signed up to fight was that it was the one way they legally could wear kilts and carry highland weapons.  Many Letters from Highlanders and in many of their diaries they talk about cutting down their kilts into small kilts.  These were very close to our modern kilts lacking only the sewing of the pleats in and buckles.  In fact in 1758 the 77th Foot allowed all soldiers to wear the short plaid for day to day wear and that the full plaid was only worn for Parade and other dress functions only. 

So there is at least very strong evidence that the modern Kilt was created by Highlanders and it was done in North American by Highland private soldiers serving in the British Army. 

Which makes the modern Kilt as much American as Scottish.

I recommend reading Highlander in the French-Indian War 1756–67 from Osprey Publishing.  Osprey also have several other books which give good information on Scotland and the wars with the English as well as a very good set of books cover the Tudor age and Henry VIII in particular.
Beware of him that is slow to anger: He is angry for something, and will not be pleased for nothing.
Benjamin Franklin

groomporter

Quote from: Rakish Rogue on May 27, 2008, 08:35:19 AM
I was always under the impression that after Queen Victoria & Prince Albert lifted the Act of Proscription 1747 ban, English tailors were responsible for the "renovations" to highland dress which resulted in today's modern kilts.

As I said, that's just my interpretation.  I don't know how accurate or true it is.

The Proscription Act banning the wearing of "<i>Highland clothes (that is to say) the Plaid, Philabeg, or little kilt, Trowes, Shoulder-Belts,</i>" was repealed in 1782 well before Victoria's time
http://www.highlandnet.com/info/culture/prosact.html
When you die can you donate your body to pseudo-science?

Seanfromscotland

#13
Quote from: SirRichardBear on June 13, 2008, 09:26:32 AM
Quote from: Rakish Rogue on May 27, 2008, 08:35:19 AM
I was always under the impression that after Queen Victoria & Prince Albert lifted the Act of Proscription 1747 ban, English tailors were responsible for the "renovations" to highland dress which resulted in today's modern kilts.

As I said, that's just my interpretation.  I don't know how accurate or true it is.

Many Letters from
So there is at least very strong evidence that the modern Kilt was created by Highlanders and it was done in North American by Highland private soldiers serving in the British Army. 

Which makes the modern Kilt as much American as Scottish.


I am all for non scots like yourselves wearing the kilt. But my patience is really starting to wear thin.

First of all the short kilt has been depicted in many paintings and the works of lowland historians well before the highland regiments venture into the americas. Seond of all if there is evidence of cutting down kilts in america by scottish highlanders that does NOT make it american, it was the scots who modified there OWN form of dress, where they did it is irrelevant.altering their own equipment in a foreing land. If an american solider altered his uniform in iraq would that make his uniform iraqi, of course not.

I get angry when I read of ridiculous claims to the kilt by the welsh, cornish, and even the austrians. The kilts is scottish and you are welcome to wear it. But do not try and extend ridiculous claims like it belongs to america beause it certainly does not.

If you want to wear the kilt do so, stop making claims to the kilt in order to justify yourselfs wearing it, because you do not need to. Anyone should wear the kilt, wether they are american, german, english, french etc.

....On another note, may I please add that the celts never wore kilts, they did not invent kilts, and there is absolutely no historical evidence that they ever wore kilts. The celts were widely doumented as wearing trousers, which was unusual at the time given even the romans wore tunics. The kilt which is unique and very seperate from tunics et. was developed in the 16th century by the scottish highlanders.
the short kilt was developed by the british army, and not thomas rawlison (which itself was a rumour based on hearsay).

Thank you

groomporter

Quote from: Seanfromscotland on June 16, 2008, 06:16:58 AM
....On another note, may I please add that the celts never wore kilts, they did not invent kilts, and there is absolutely no historical evidence that they ever wore kilts. The celts were widely doumented as wearing trousers, which was unusual at the time given even the romans wore tunics.

That's a whole 'nuther discussion that unfortunately got lost when this forum was rebuilt after the recent cyber attack Although today most people think of "Celts" as the Irish and Scottish, they forget that the true Celts were an ancient people who at one time controlled much of northern Europe.
When you die can you donate your body to pseudo-science?