Fabrics

[Sev]

Okay, now that I've finally taken a serious interest in linen, wool, and more period-appropriate fabrics, I'm wondering if I might get some advice on what to look for and where to find it.

Linen, I pretty much understand, with the weights and such. Fabrics-store.com seems like a fantastic resource for it too, well within my price range. Any other good places to look?

For wool, Denverfabrics.com seems to have a fantastic selection -- but I don't know which weight/style/etc. is suitable for what, except what says "coating". Any advice on what would be good for garb, and any favorite resources for it?

Silk is something I haven't had the guts to play with yet, but for the sake of discussion, what common kinds of silk are there, and what are they best suited for? Where do you like to get yours?

Sorry for such a range of topics, but I'm trying to build up my notes and collection of links.

Thanks all! <3

[gem]

For wools, I love (lovelovelovelovelove) Renaissance Fabrics.  I just made a jacket from the most beautiful butter yellow wool flannel.  It was a dream to work with.  Bonus: they do free swatching.

With wool, it's helpful to distinguish between woolens and worsteds (which are made by slightly different production methods).  Woolens (like flannel, broadcloth, coat, melton) tend to be soft and fluffy--but not necessarily  heavy.  Worsteds are smooth, flat, and crisp.  Tropical weight wool, crepe, gabardine are typically worsted (think of nice men's suits).  Flannel would be a good weight for just about any garb--particularly gowns.  It stretches a bit and has a lovely drape.  Broadcloth can be stiff and heavy--good for period accurate frock coats, for example.  A great way to get a feeling for the different types/weights of wool is to order the swatch pack (like $5) from Burnley & Trowbridge.  I think their yardage prices are a bit high, but I'm pretty cheap when it comes to fabric.

Another good source for wool (particularly non-specific tartans) is Hamilton Dry Goods, aka Period Fabrics.  The wool page on their website is a bit wonky, but Ron knows the current stock inside and out.  I've bought tons from them over the years.

I'm currently on the hunt for the perfect lightweight black worsted... but like you I'm finding myself a little thrown by unfamiliar terminology.  I think I'm going to have to suck it up and order swatches.

Silks... my current silk crush is Silk Baron, but he mostly deals with dupioni.  Dupioni (which is the slubby weave often used in wedding gowns) isn't really period--they prided themselves on *finely woven* silks, and slubs would have been considered a flaw.  Silk taffeta, silk twill, silk-wool blends, etc, are all good.  Silk brocades can be nice--but watch out for the "too Asian" looking patterns.

[Elensari]

Hi there,

I work with piles of wool, and I get most of it from Fashionfabricsclub.com/Denverfabrics.  They are now the same company.  They take a little while to get to you, and they only swatch in yardage increments, but they are awesome, and their prices are great!

You can make most anything out of lightweight suiting.  You can always flatline it with a little cotton or hair canvas if you need to.  Wool is THE coolest fabric to make super accurate garb. I just ordered 6 yards of MM148 a brown/black flocked wool, that looks a lot like a cut velvet.  I am currently making an English fitted gown from it.(Tudor Tailor) I also order a swatch of GG899 Black wool suiting for a customer for a loose gown.  It is a lovely worsted, and I can't wait to wash it, to see what it does. If you put those item numbers in the search box at www.fashionfabricsclub.com you will see the wools I am talking about.  I usually search by "wool color" like red or blue.  You never want anything with any lycra in it at all.  It gets real squirrely.

ALWAYS wash and dry your wool, before you make anything out of it.  It is best to wash in a laundromat or at home if you are lucky enough to have a front loader. Wool+agitation=bad!

I recommend silk in small doses.  It is very hot, and does not breathe at all when it is humid.  Also try to use satins or taffetas if you are going authenticity, and you are always going to be happier if you flat line everything other wise it floats all over, and I find it hard to control.  I like my stuff a little heavier, so it stays in the damn pleats I spent all that time sewing on by hand! (cartridge pleating)  But it sure is pretty!
Silk Baron is great, he is very nice, and their sampling is easy and quick.
But do not trust the color on your monitor, mine was WAY different.

I am feeling like I have gushed!  I hope this helps some.  I apologize if this was at all presumptuous.

[William Blackheath]

I am really glad this was brought up.  I recently purchased ten yards of black/red worsted wool tweed from Denver Fabrics for my frock coat and breeches, but was unsure how to pre-wash it.  Will it work to hand wash in warm water, then dry flat on a table or rolled up in towels?  If so, how warm should the water be?  I also bought some 7.1 oz. linen from fabric-store.com for the interfacing.  Is that a good weight to keep the coat's shape without getting too heavy?  It will be worn mainly for summer faires, and I have some 5.3 oz. linen if that will work better.

By the way, my experience with both these merchants was excellent!

[Elensari]

In my opinion, the point of pre-washing is to stress the fabric, and take all the excess dye, and sizing out.  I think I bought 8 yards of that same wool back in Dec.  I washed it on warm in a washing machine, and dried it in the dryer on hot.  This will tighten up any fabric, but with wool you are likely to have 3 to 5 % shrinkage.  The looser the weave, the more shrinkage.  I lost maybe 1/2 in. when I washed my tweed, it is pretty tight.  I do this to all my wool.  I have two big wool skirts that MaritaBeth over at Pendragon made me and I wash and dry these when they need it, with impunity. 

Any fabric that is very stable will be good lining.  7.1 is quite heavy.  I made a set of bases out of it that I lined in cotton, and they were quite stiff.  The only issue I have ever run into with linen is, if you are a heavy sweater, the linen soaks up a ton of sweat, and it does not evaporate quickly.  I never had this issue, but I made my ex a linen Elizabethan suit for Bristol, and he said it stayed wet all day, and stretched.  We would have to wash/dry it to get it to tighten up again.  This was a very fitted doublet though, so your frock coat should be fine.  I would suggest the 5.3 oz.  It will lie in prettier folds if the wool and the linen are similar weights.  Also do to the linen what you do to the wool.  That way as long as there is not metallic trims you can wash the whole coat, should it get a little "whiff".

The wool doublet that I posted over in the Portrait Gowns topic is wool tweed flatlined in hair canvas and lined in 5.3 oz linen.  It breathes great, and keeps it shape very well.  The wool seems to pull the moisture out of the linen and dissipates it well.  I am sure your coat will be gorgeous!

[gem]

Linen has "progressive shrinkage," so it's best if you wash and dry it several times before cutting.  I generally wash in the hottest water the color will allow, then dry it on high... usually three times.  The bonus of all this washing and drying is that linen becomes softer and less wrinkle-prone the more you wash it.

I agree with Elensari: 7 oz might be too heavy to line a coat with.

[Cilean]

I guess my reply got lost in cyberspace!
It is awesome you want to work with more authentic fabrics!  But...this means you need to do more research, now Tudor Tailor has some great information on English fabrics for the time period and describes some modern day eqivalents.

I would futher make a suggestion that while Dupioni Silk is a grand thing for the price, if you can afford this, then by all means use it, however Silk taffeta was used for the clothing ventures.  The reason is because of the slubs in Dupioni which would have been a 2nd run fabric.  I personally have used Dupioni myself, however I have found that using Taffeta has it's good points.  I have made my Farthingale of Taffeta and one of my petticoats, it really makes my skirts flow better over the farthingale.

Wools I have been researching, someone mentioned something about Gabardine Twill weave being created in the 19th century via the Wiki information, but people recreate colors and fabrics, and Twills have been around as early as the 9th century.  Gabardine the specific term might have been used for fabrics before the 19th Century, but someone at Burberry is taking credit for naming the fabric, it is still a twill that is authentic to our time period and well, it is a great fabric to use.

Wool supposedly wicks sweat and can be lovely to wear I have plans on making a gown with some lovely gabardine, it is very thin and after I wash the fabric I will not be drying it in the dryer, cuz I don't want it to felt I want it to stay thin. But who knows, anywhooo  Research is the deal.

If you are going to Costume College? In Van Nuys, CA I am teaching a class on this very subject and bringing tons of fabrics I have collected and their counterparts!

Or you could always buy Fortuny fabrics, while it was created from the 1800's, it was taken designs from the Renaissance.

Cilean[color]

{moderator} Empty spaces taken out {/moderator}

[PrincessSara]

I'm looking into making some wool gowns too, but I don't understand the terminology.  What would I use the different types of wool for? (ie. coating, flannel, felt, worsted, gabardine, broadcloth, serge, suiting, twill, Italian, jersey, crepe?)

[Sev]

That's exactly what I was going to ask. =) I don't know if I should be looking for medium-weight wools (whichever ones those are, I can't tell), or if the "tropical weight" ones I see would be at all useful... etc.

[Cilean]

Okay so you asked for it!!!  LOL Okay so here is where I have

Broadcloth
So this is all I have on this. I am collecting samples of different woolens, Linens and Silks as well as raw Cotton both in American and Eygptian to show the long strands of the Eygptian vs the shorter version of the US variety.  The characteristics of wool broadcloth are slightly different from other broadcloth. It is usually twill with a two up and one down construction. The fabric is fulled after weaving. Fulling is a process where the cloth is cleansed, shrunk and thickened with moisture, heat and pressure. It has a napped face and is closely sheared and polished.

Crepe Fabric
Crepe is a light-weight and classic soft silk fabric with a good drapeability. It is smooth and highly shapeable. The fabric comes in different weights and degrees of sheerness. It has a good slimming effect. The surface texture of the fabric ranges from fine, flat to pebbled and mossy effects. It is durable and easy to cut and sew. It is ideally suited for dresses and blouses.  This was used past period I think in the 19th Century. I am still looking for more information regarding this.

Donegal Fabric
Donegal was originally a thick and warm homespun or tweed woven by Irish peasants in Donegal, Ireland. Donegal now describes the wool tweed that has colorful thick slubs woven into the fabric.

Flannel Fabric
Flannel is a soft and fuzzy fabric made of cotton, cotton blend or wool. It is thick and very durable. It feels cozy and warm in cold weather. The fabric absorbs and releases perspiration, allowing it to breathe. This makes it a wonderful warm weather bedding material. It is elastic and has a good draping properties.

Flannel is made in tightly woven twill or plain weave. It is finished with a light napping either on one side or both. The nap is achieved by brushing the fabric and it is usually non-directional. Flannel varies in closeness or firmness of the weave and in the degree of napping. For example, a French flannel is very fine twill-weave and slightly napped on the right side where as suede flannel is napped on both sides.  In the Renaissance it would have been exclusively wool but now we use cotton.

Felt -
Used in period for quilting, embroidery, stiffening, and sometimes interlining. Made of wool. Good modern equivalents would include some of the finer made felts available at most craft stores and fabric stores. Felt is a non-woven cloth that is produced by matting, condensing and pressing fibers. While some types of felt are very soft, some are tough enough to form construction materials. Felt can be of any color, and made into any shape or size.


Frieze, Frizado -
Woolen cloth made with a heavy nap, usually on one side only. It was considered especially suited for gowns, jackets, jerkins, and coats. Often used for military wear although it was worn by both men and women of all classes. Frizado was a woolen cloth of high nap that was of better quality. It was used in garments where warmth was needed.

Gabardine Fabric
Gabardine or gaberdine is a style of weave which has a fine and distinct diagonal ribs caused by the interlacing pattern of yarns. It is tightly woven twill fabric with a clear finish. It is firm and durable. Sometimes it has high sheen. Gabardine is inclined to shine with wear but it is hard to press properly. It wears extremely well.   However, true gabardine has a tight twill on one side and a smooth and plain looking reverse side. Gabardine has two times as many threads per inch in the warp than what is there in the weft.

The word 'Gabardine' has been taken from 'Gabardina'. Gabardina was a loose outer garment worn by Spanish pilgrims in the medieval times. So agian someone mentioned from a Wikipeadia information about how Burberry 'created' this fabric, but that is not the case.


Loden Fabric
Loden is a thick and heavy fabric made from the fleeces of mountain sheep. It is soft and durable. The fabric is resistant to water because of the oily and coarse rough wool, which prevents water penetration. It is also windproof and generally used for outerwear.  Loden fabric originated from Austria and Germany where it was woven from coarse grade wool. The word 'Loden' has been derived from a German word 'Loda', which means haircloth. Originally it was made from wool but now it is blended with alpaca, mohair or camel. Loden is traditionally of dark green color with a laid down and pressed pile finish.


Melton - These are thicker woolen fabric and is made of twill or satin weave with a smooth surface. Due to its thickness, used in period and today as for outwear fabric.



Woolen Broadcloth
Goes back to the Medieval times it was firstly created with good English wool in Flanders.  Later weavers came to England and taught how to create this fabric.  It has a light rib like a poplin.  This type of wool is densely woven fabric which is extremely sturdy and very soft to the touch.

Worsted Wool
Rather than going directly into a spinning process, the wool is first combed in a carding process. The purpose of the combing is to remove any short and brittle fibers from the wool. This leaves only the longer strands of the fiber to undergo the spinning process, producing a smooth yarn that possesses a higher durability. Owing to the strength of wool that undergoes the worsting process, the fibers can be woven into a finer material that is more wrinkle resistant than many other fabric choices.


I have more that I am still working on, I did grab this stuff from all over the net.

Cilean

[PrincessSara]

Thanks for the great info Cilean!

I have a specific question.  What type of wool would be suitable for a Codex Manesse style cyclas?  As seen on this young lady:


The one I'm specifically looking at is 10 to 12oz crepe.  There's also the possibility of flannel or gabardine.

[FaireMare]

Sara, what level of accuracy are you going for?

[PrincessSara]

Pretty much as accurate as possible.

[Baroness Doune]

Princess Sara,
I would suggest either flannel or gabardine.
The Medieval Tailor's Assistant does not go into much detail of the types of wool fabric suitable for the garments in the book.  All that is mentioned is woolen cloth, broadcloth, and worsted.  I see nothing which matches the description of wool crepe in The Tudor Tailor.  I don't think there was anything like wool crepe used in even 18th century garments.  Gem, do you know?  My SIL has my Sally Queen right now.

I went searching for some history on wool crepe and found...
All About Wool:  A Fabric Dictionary and Swatchbook
http://www.raincitypublishing.com/allaboutwool.html
Oh, this would be nice if I had some money to burn.

[silasraven]

where do you get all your infor on the right kind of fabric to use?

[isabelladangelo]

Hi silasraven,

This is a VERY old thread  (2008!) and I think a couple of people aren't even active members of this board anymore!  However, I think many of the posters did mention books as well as links of where they got their information.  Most of us use Janet Arnold's books as a base and go off from there.  She uses a lot of primary sources -such as wardrobe accounts- to explain types of fabrics known to have been used as well as colors and other dress details.  Although she focuses on the 16th Century, there are other books that discuss earlier centuries as well.

I personally love archeological reports which are great at explaining the types of fibers used at various time periods even if they don't have a full dress.   

[Betty Munro]

Well, as long as the thread had been revived ...
When using flannel for a kirtle or medieval gown ... does it have to be wool flannel, or does cotton flannel look similar enough to pass?  All cotton flannel looks like pajamas to me, and I don't think JoAnne's carries anything other than suit weight wool, and it is all terribly expensive.  Is suit weight wool a better choice for a medieval gown to be worn under a surcoat?  I'd be shooting for visual h/a.

[isabelladangelo]

For a medieval sideless surcote -as long as you are planning for cooler months- I'd go with a fleece really.   I've seen a lot of fleeces that look exactly like a wool until you touch them.   Fleece is also nice and WARM.  My Mom steals my fleece cape all the time because it's really that warm.

For a kirtle, I'd go with a light weight Gabardine.  It's light enough that it's about the same as most other fabrics you are probably use to working with but it has the same look as many wools in period.  (It's also pretty cheap in the off season)

[Betty Munro]

Not cooler here.  Florida.  It is hot as hell and humid.  Step outside in late February to early December and start sweating.  There is a medieval faire in November, but it is still likely to be in the 80's. 
I don't know how they wear court gowns here.  I can't imagine fleece, unless it breathes, and wicks away moisture?

[isabelladangelo]

Oh no, fleece does not breathe at all.   For Florida; I'd use a nice silk damask if you can afford it or a cotton damask for a winter sideless surcote and line it with linen or silk.   However, a gabardine should still work.  I need to rework my 1570's Italian peasant dress using a gabardine.  I have the fabric, I'm just too lazy to pick the trims off the old dress and sew them on to the new one.  :-)

[Kate XXXXXX]

Not sure about the rest of it, but the bit about Melton is inaccurate.  Melton starts as a cloth about 120" wide, plain woven.  It's then fulled down by pounding in water so that it shrinks and felts and ends up about 60" wide with a nap.  This is then trimmed and pressed so that it has a smooth, dense felted surface.  With good Melton it's hard to tell the right side of the cloth from the wrong.  I had a long discussion with Susan North at the V&A about Melton a few years back.  And yes, back in the 18th C when Melton became popular for men's coats and cloaks, they did indeed weave it that wide...  I've also talked to Abimilech Hainsworth, manufacturers of fine wool cloths for the military since before Waterloo.  Their website is a good source of information about what the different types of wool are and their best uses, and if you need to know more about the history of the different types, they can tell you when the different weaves were introduced and their uses, because they have the records of when they started making it.   MOST of the weaves we see in wool today were introduced in the 19th C. 

Fleece?  If you are talking about polar fleece, made from polyester, then a good wicking one WILL breathe perfectly well.  It's made to wick the moisture away from the inside while retaining the warmth, which is why arctic explorers ans mountain climbers use it in preference to wool these days.  It also retains warmth when wet, and weights a lot less than wool.  For good info about their different types of fleece, look at the Malden Mills site.

For the gown in the picture I'd use a fine light plain woven wool challis.  For extra warmth and a contrast lining, double it and give it a different coloured lining of the same fabric.  For warmer climes, use linen.  Use the same cloth for the under gown.  For the shift under it all, use fine light weight linen.

[Betty Munro]

I found a really pretty medium weight linen at JoAnne's to make the undergown.  I just can't find any wool at the store that I could invision as a gown.
I found a heavier cotton fabric in the Red Tag aisle (something between a denim and a canvas look to the weave) for the surcoat.
I'm going to use muslin from my personal stash for the chemise.

Thanks for the info and advise ladies!

[Rowan MacD]

  Just scored some gorgeous black and gold Fluer d' Lis Jacquard from Hancock Fabric destined for that new gown I'm planning.....54% off! All home dec fabrics on sale this week....  I only went in to get buttons and some grommets *sigh* I am weak.