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What do you think of plot?

Started by GirlChris, August 03, 2009, 08:21:08 PM

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Katie Bookwench

Quote from: mistress lilly on September 10, 2009, 08:56:13 AM
I forgot which faire it was, forgive me, but my absolute favorite "involvement" technique of plot introduction of any faire was a newspaper as a program.
It wasn't large, it wasn't elaborate. The map, the cast, the vendor list was all present and cleverly worked in but there was a "headline" story that you couldn't miss the title of..."Can the Queen Evade Spanish Invasion" (example)
Then there was a smaller article "Sherrif Rottenly, Long arm of the law or henchman?" there was an obit section complete with "Grave Digger looking to fill vacancies", there were announcements "Mayor's searching for suitable husband" and "Pirates to the East, Thieves to the West...is the shire in danger?"  Small articles giving plot elements were there but a really quick skim of titles and bylines gave patrons a great understanding of plot.

That is a fantastic idea!! Someone was really on the ball with that one.

Katie O'Connell - Hollygrove Library
(aka The Bookwench)
Licensed Wench - IWG Local 57

L Dale Walter

Quote from: mistress lilly on September 10, 2009, 08:56:13 AM
plotline but overall in the past decade, it seriously lagged and patrons didn't notice let alone care.

This is kind of a loaded question on here. We aren't mundane patrons.
Rennies notice the plot because we are there, performing, vending or attending and we notice the ear marks.

I think the 400+ people screaming for Robin Hood to get up after the Sheriff put him down in the final scene last Monday at MiRF may disagree.

We get -very- few rennies at Knights of Iron shows.  We have mostly families with kids.  Very Disney-esque market.

All depends on how hard you work the streets, how solid your characters are, and how much you want to put in.  People keep telling me plot doesn't work.  Show numbers, fan mail, autographs, and pictures (over 400 taken of the bad guys on 9/6 alone) say differently.

LDW

McGuinness

Quote from: mistress lilly on September 10, 2009, 08:56:13 AM
I forgot which faire it was, forgive me, but my absolute favorite "involvement" technique of plot introduction of any faire was a newspaper as a program.
It wasn't large, it wasn't elaborate. The map, the cast, the vendor list was all present and cleverly worked in but there was a "headline" story that you couldn't miss the title of..."Can the Queen Evade Spanish Invasion" (example)
Then there was a smaller article "Sherrif Rottenly, Long arm of the law or henchman?" there was an obit section complete with "Grave Digger looking to fill vacancies", there were announcements "Mayor's searching for suitable husband" and "Pirates to the East, Thieves to the West...is the shire in danger?"  Small articles giving plot elements were there but a really quick skim of titles and bylines gave patrons a great understanding of plot. I was blown away impressed.
I also expected to see a tonne of these crumpled in the streets, but they weren't. There were recycling bins, just in case people didn't keep them but many did, and even sought out "autographs" on them. I also saw them put to use as a bum-buffer on a wet bench, as umbrellas and as the ever popular mud shield at the mud show.




PaRF does this. Every year there is an "Elizabethan Times" with a map, schedule, show info, cast info and brief articles oexplaining the plot line and history-related info (and of course a fair share of advertising, but that's business). They've made it a bit more compact in the past couple years, but its still a standard with lots of info, especially for new patrons.

Kristy Eason

For a number of years, I was the president and manager of a smaller college run faire in Grand Rapids, so I've seen the plus sides of plot and how it works, as well as the downsides and how it doesn't.

The size of the festival has very little to do with whether or not plot is followed, but rather how easy or how difficult it is to cover enough patronage to get them to follow it. As Dale has said, by printing advertisement and hitting the lanes hard -- and also by choosing very recognizable characters -- it draws in a crowd or at least generates interest. If you have a plot line and spend no time selling it or talking about it, then no, patrons won't follow plot; they won't know it's there!

Choosing characters that people are already naturally invested in -- ie, characters of storybooks and legends -- DOES make a distinct difference in average patron following. At our festival, since it is college run and volunteer based, we accept everyone whether they have a costume or not, whether they have acting experience or not, etc. We have attempted to do small plot-line scenarios throughout the day before, and while some of the patrons seem interested and followed it through to the cumulative scene at the end of the day, we were unable to offer them characters that they could invest themselves in. We gave them Pirate Captain with a moron crew versus the Upholders of Law, which was fun, and I saw many who were entertained, but I would hardly say that they were invested in the victories or failures of the characters.

In addition to that, none of us were able to spend time in the streets hawking the plot or interacting very closely with patrons because our festival requires us to have multiple roles -- we are its actors, organizers, fundraisers, information boothies, security, groundskeeping, etc, etc. We saw proof that if you can't be present to sell your show, then it doesn't work. A plot show requires effort.

Basically, if you're going to create a plot line and expect it to be followed, you need to be present, you need to be vocal, and you need to be there for your average patron, not for your friends and not for yourself. I do think that a plotline with original characters can work, but it is a far greater undertaking then already using established characters of legend and requires a great deal more effort than most people are willing or able to put forth.

When I started going to other festivals as a patron, the first thing that hooked me was an exciting plot with investable characters. I enjoyed it so much that every weekend I went back, I still followed the plot show, even though I'd seen it time and time again. People love their movies, their books, their tv shows, and plot scenarios are an opportunity to bring all of that right to the face of an average person and give them something really cool to watch.

So, do patrons follow plot? Yes -- if it's done right and the people within it are committed to sharing their story with everyone who walks through the gate.

bunnie

From a Stage Act's point of view;


As a stage act; we are more focussed on what is immediately affecting our audiences - ie weather, other shows, time of day etc etc etc. We generally don't know what the cast is up to at any given time, we may see bits being played out on the street, but like Alison says, 90% of casual Faire-goers (not anyone on here, again,the fact that you're on this board means you are Not Casual LOL... if your footwear costs half or more of what your car did then no, you are not casual) only know "Yay! The King is Here!"

So I guess I'll say for more stage performers, no, we don't usually follow the storyline although we are aware of it, and think all the castmembers do a kick weed puller job of
drawing in the audience to get them to care.

VIII

"Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare to die!"
Who he is
Plot exposition
What is going to happen next
Best Character intro ever!
Former King Henry VIII
Renaissance Magazine Issue #66 Cover Boy

L Dale Walter

Quote from: VIII on October 12, 2009, 11:31:23 AM
Who he is
Plot exposition
What is going to happen next
Best Character intro ever!

Agreed!  Like I always tell my performers "If the audience doesn't know who you are in 7 seconds, you have failed."

I saw it constantly this year.  I would introduce myself "Pleasure to meet you, I am William DeLacey, the Sheriff of Nottingham..." and BANG they KNEW what was going on.  The audience knew that Robin Hood would be there, and that we would be in conflict.  Nothing more had to be said.


LDW

BLAKDUKE

Well  I am going to throw in my 2 ducats worth.   Essentially everything, everyone is saying has merit and each is staunchly protective of their particular opinion.  However I would like to point out 2 things.  1. What works for one may not necessarily work for someone else.  L.Dale's opinion is a good one but I don't think it would work in a small market.  At Gulf Coast a central theme has been tried, but since it is a 1 weekend faire it is impossible to get the central characters together to reherse the scenario and know for a fact how everything is going to work out.   2.  Here I am going to go out on a limb because I tried googling the info and could not come up with the reference that I was looking for.  I know I read it somewhere.  What I am referring to is the established concept of why the original medieval/renn-faires were established in the first place.  They did not come about because a specific event was occuring, I.E. the King/Queen is visiting,  K. Henry/K Francis meeting on the field of the cloth of gold, ETC. ETC.  The faires were established as a method of trade between countries in order to bring goods from one country to the host country which did not have the raw materials.  I.E. Spanish Toledo Steel for weapons or French Wine to England for English Wool or English Oak for ship building, Oriental spices, silk ETC.  The hosting countrys monarch would have to give dispensations of taxes in order to entice the merchants to bring their goods.  Also the host country would also provide protection from thieves and bandits.  If the host countries monarch was traveling he/she might visit the faire giving it a more important reason for being.  Specific events like maybe Eliz./Mary Q of Scots. could be used, or the Field of the Cloth of Gold was another specific event, but these were rare.  In all likelyhood the faire was hosted by a regional official such as the local Duke of a region and therein if he was important enough he might invite the King/Queen.  But the main reason for the faires was TRADE.   Is there any historical document which confirms that Elizabeth or Henry actually attended a faire.    As I said I am not stating that I am the expert here, but this is what I have learned over the years.   For the most part ALL of our renn-faires adhere to this trade concept, as evidenced by the number of vendors at each faire, there is your trade reason.  If a dispute arises between two factions, then to me there is the subplot and the reason for the joust.  At GCRF, the trade aspect is the initial reason for being there,  as an addendum, we merely use the concept of "the King and Queen are visiting and they wishes to see a bit of sport", so the SCA puts on demostrations and the jousters will make passes in friendly competition.  Of course the King, being a former seafaring man in his younger days can, at a few times during the day, be seen at the gypsy camp watching the belly dancers and learning new "naval manuevers".  And believe me the puns get worse from there.    It does not always have to strife and turmoil.   I have found that most people come to faire to see the joust anyway, whether there is plot or not.     Like I said at the beginning, just my 2 ducats worth.     
Ancient swordsman/royalty
Have Crown/Sword Will Travel

will paisley

Quote from: BLAKDUKE on October 19, 2009, 09:23:35 AM
 For the most part ALL of our renn-faires adhere to this trade concept, as evidenced by the number of vendors at each faire, there is your trade reason.   

I'm not sure I agree with this bit.  Most faires I've been to are based on the Royal Progress, where His or Her Majesty would journey through the countryside to see various parts of his/her kingdom.  The stores/vendors that are there are stores that would normally be in the town, plus others that would spring up in order to milk some money off the royal retinue. Granted, most small villages wouldn't have that many shops, but they wouldn't be selling pre-made nobles garb, wooden swords or Diet Coke either.  In any event, that's the rationale for "faire" I've seen presented at most faires, and it's the excuse for having the king or queen there.
Minstrel, Interrupted, Bard #400 (CD)
Faire Name: "Flo's Husband"
Yeoman-Purser of the Frigate Up Royally

BLAKDUKE

Will

I said that all of our faires "adhere" to the trade concept, I did not say they were all based on it.  True the royal progress is the theme in a lot of our faires but there were faires long before the royal progress came about.  Trade with other countries, cities, shires etc.  still remains high on the list of reasons.   My point is that while a "plot line" may be essential in some venues, they are not necessarily required to have, and that presence and/or absence of a central plot will not make or break a faire.   As an example
has anyone ever come up to faire management and complained that the faire stunk or was bad or did not hold their interest because there was no central plot and/or theme.   There are successful faires that have 7 different themed weekends and with a plot for each one(whew).  There are faires which have only one theme for the entire run with and without plots.  And lastly there are faires with no plot whatsoever just people gathering and enjoying the atmosphere and events and having fun.   In truth kids(7 - 15)
I do not think care about plot.  Show them knights in shining armor, grandly dressed nobles, peasants wallowing in the mud, animals of any kind and they are happy.  As long as the kids are happy, that is whats important.

The BLAKDUKE   
Ancient swordsman/royalty
Have Crown/Sword Will Travel

will paisley

Quote from: BLAKDUKE on October 21, 2009, 07:47:47 AM
 My point is that while a "plot line" may be essential in some venues, they are not necessarily required to have, and that presence and/or absence of a central plot will not make or break a faire.   As an example has anyone ever come up to faire management and complained that the faire stunk or was bad or did not hold their interest because there was no central plot and/or theme.   There are successful faires that have 7 different themed weekends and with a plot for each one(whew).  There are faires which have only one theme for the entire run with and without plots.  And lastly there are faires with no plot whatsoever just people gathering and enjoying the atmosphere and events and having fun.   In truth kids (7 - 15) I do not think care about plot.  Show them knights in shining armor, grandly dressed nobles, peasants wallowing in the mud, animals of any kind and they are happy.  As long as the kids are happy, that is whats important.

The BLAKDUKE   

On that matter, I think we're in "violent agreement".  ;D I have long since given up on conversing with patrons about any of the plot points at our faire.  It's like patron repellent - it actually pushes them away.
Minstrel, Interrupted, Bard #400 (CD)
Faire Name: "Flo's Husband"
Yeoman-Purser of the Frigate Up Royally

BLAKDUKE

Quote from: will paisley on October 21, 2009, 08:49:17 AM
Quote from: BLAKDUKE on October 21, 2009, 07:47:47 AM
 My point is that while a "plot line" may be essential in some venues, they are not necessarily required to have, and that presence and/or absence of a central plot will not make or break a faire.   As an example has anyone ever come up to faire management and complained that the faire stunk or was bad or did not hold their interest because there was no central plot and/or theme.   There are successful faires that have 7 different themed weekends and with a plot for each one(whew).  There are faires which have only one theme for the entire run with and without plots.  And lastly there are faires with no plot whatsoever just people gathering and enjoying the atmosphere and events and having fun.   In truth kids (7 - 15) I do not think care about plot.  Show them knights in shining armor, grandly dressed nobles, peasants wallowing in the mud, animals of any kind and they are happy.  As long as the kids are happy, that is whats important.

The BLAKDUKE   

On that matter, I think we're in "violent agreement".  ;D

Will

No violence please.....    I am a peacefull man(yeah right).  In truth most people today could not care less about history, it's finer point, or it's majpr points.  Ask them about the "War of the Roses" and they will refer to a couple named Rose that got divorced last year.  Ask them about the war of 1812 and they will tell you that was the war that freed the slaves.   The American Revolution, that was the where WE beheaded Louis XVI and Marie Attoinette.  It's just plain scary how people just do not care about what went on before video games.   If they do not learn it in the movies it just never happened.  I fear if the trend continues our faires will slowly decline and dissappear because no one will be interested in old stuff like that.

The BLAKDUKE     
Ancient swordsman/royalty
Have Crown/Sword Will Travel

L Dale Walter

Quote from: BLAKDUKE on October 21, 2009, 07:47:47 AM
In truth kids(7 - 15) I do not think care about plot. 

Disagree.  Out target market is kids 3-11, and BELIEVE ME they are interested in what happens to Robin Hood, King Arthur, The Three Musketeers, or whoever our storyline is about.  Now if the show in question is about the consolidation of currency under QEI, ummm, maybe not so much...

Our show this year at MiRF "The Adventures of Robin Hood" pulled 17,315 people over the 7 week run, or well over 10% of total attendance.  Those numbers are huge for any show, and for a scenario they are unheard of by most.

You just have to get the formula (previously discussed) down, and it WORKS.

L. Dale Walter
Director
Knights of Iron

stonebiscuit

Quote from: BLAKDUKE on October 22, 2009, 09:38:39 AM
Quote from: will paisley on October 21, 2009, 08:49:17 AM
Quote from: BLAKDUKE on October 21, 2009, 07:47:47 AM
  In truth kids (7 - 15) I do not think care about plot. 

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I was a vehement follower of the plot when I was that age. I suspended my disbelief right out the window--I remember one time when I was about 11, my friend and I got so worked up over the Robin Hood scenario we were actually kicking/throwing rocks at the Sherriff of Nottingham.

L Dale Walter

Speaking of the power of plot, especially for children.  In 2005-2007 we ran a show at the Silver Leaf Renaissance Faire called "The Legend of King Arthur".  In it two of the biggest bad guys were Percard the Black Knight, and D'Kahn, a Russian character.

In 2008 we ran a Robin Hood show (this is just put in here as a point of time line)

In 2009 we did not do a "plot based" show, but rather we brought Percard and D'Kahn back in a stage show called "The School of Villainy", where they attempted to recruit new villains for their "Empire of Pure Evil", which was explained as  a "kind of like Amway for villains"...

During one of our more crowded shows, I watched a whole family of five get up out of the middle of the audience and leave about 5 minutes in.  I found this odd, as we were really the only show on at the time, and it was going well.  So, I noted it, and moved on.

Later in the day the parents came up to me and apologized.  It turns out that 3 YEARS AGO their 3 kids saw the King Arthur show, and when they realized we were the villains from that show, wanted NOTHING to do with us.  Furthermore, they were still wearing the favors that the knights bestowed upon them, as they had saved them so if the Knights of the Round Table saw them again, they would know they were being faithful to the oaths they had taken.

I was a bit stunned.  She went on to say that her family often uses the lessons taught in the King Arthur show as illustrations for her children, saying how if you do something bad you are like Mordred.  Suffice to say NONE of her children want to be like him, and all aspire to be like King Arthur and his Knights.

I can live with that...

LDW