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Economics of the faire

Started by Prof. John Bull, November 16, 2009, 01:55:02 PM

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L Dale Walter

QuoteThe shame is only if the artist spends their time whining about how they "deserve" to make more money as an artist and how terrible it is that "society" doesn't support them.

I have a standing joke that the next performer, or vendor, who bitches to me that "This is my LIVELYHOOD" about anything gets punched in the nose.  That has become the cry of those who's shows can't compete, or are selling; #1 things no one wants or, #2 overpriced stuff.  Like it is somehow OWED to them because this is how they make their living, yet they don't understand simple economics of supply and demand, or that physical fitness and personal hygiene is important if you are selling yourself as a performer.

Two examples:  Vendor - I had a guy complaining that he wasn't making any money, when he was selling carved walking sticks (something no one needs) the cheapest one was $75, and the faire was in a depressed area.  Ummm, duh?  Get some under $20 items my friend...

Performer - This guy has gained an average of 10-15 lbs every year since I have known him.  He now tips the scales at over 350, is in terrible shape, and can't understand why he isn't getting fight team/stunt work.  Hello?  He can't physically do the work, and no one really wants to see him flop about on stage panting and turning red.  Could he have played another role, possibly, but he was convinced he was a FIGHTER, even though I bet his physician would advise otherwise...

It's your livelyhood?  Then ACT like it.  Treat it like job, not a social event.

L Dale Walter

Quote from: Prof. John Bull on November 17, 2009, 04:32:50 PM
the market rates for performers are depressed by the fact that people are willing to work for peanuts because of the intangible rewards.  I think that is an important part of the context for the discussion of the impact of entertainment expenses on the P&L of the promoters, which is what this thread is really about.

Agreed, but then you also get what you pay for.  Costuming my "Three Musketeers" show to get them "movie perfect" costs about $2500 per Musketeer.  If a faire wants that look, with professional performers with spot on accents and characters, then they pay for it.  If they will accept a 16 year old who will work for free in a tabbard bought from Halloween USA as their standard of Musketeers, then they get what they pay for, and their show suffers accordingly.

So, at one level, yes you are correct.  At another, not at all.  Quality draws, and sells.  Some shows realize this, other do in time, some never do.

THAT is the market.  Where you ply your trade is dependent on who wants what you are selling, and can afford it.

L. Dale Walter
Director
Knights of Iron

vinceconaway

Why is there such focus on day rate here?  Unpaid and underpaid acts can only depress salary scales, not hat or sales revenue.  Don't make your act better so that you can impress a few entertainment directors, make your act better so you can blow away your audience and get a hat full of tens and twenties.

After doing this for a few years, and making yourself into a festival draw, ask for more money from management.  If you've made yourself a big enough part of the festival you should get it, and if you don't you can take your blockbuster money-making act anywhere else and do just as well.

Vince

L Dale Walter

Quote from: vinceconaway on November 19, 2009, 05:55:55 PM
Why is there such focus on day rate here?  Unpaid and underpaid acts can only depress salary scales, not hat or sales revenue.  Don't make your act better so that you can impress a few entertainment directors, make your act better so you can blow away your audience and get a hat full of tens and twenties.

Well, for my part, I run mostly no hat shows.  I can't see a way to make it work in the contex of our performance without cheapening it.  Kind of like the King and Queen standing at the front gate at days end asking for hat.  It just doesn't look good...

I do have one "hat" show that I sell, and, yes, there I agree with you.  However you still have a bottom line that you must make, or you lose money.  On rain days, or when you are up against another event, it is hard to make hat.  Nice to know your hotel, gas, and food are still covered...

GoldenGoose

Generally, I've found people woefully underestimate how expensive it is to put on a show like a Renaissance Faire. The advertising/marketing budget alone for a larger show can run $50-100K. Toilets -- admittedly, I have high standards and insist on a high rate of potty to patron, but really, for a 1500-1800 person daily gate, you can easily spend $1200 a day. Those people picking up trash, parking cars, taking tickets...they all have to be paid as well. A HUGE chunk of change. We're a very small show -- but almost $5000 in gravel. Gravel. Don't even get me started on construction costs. Permits and licenses. Liability insurance. Websites, printing, fuel. Ice. Fabrics, paints, tools, machinery.

A larger show may have some people working year round. Salary. Benefits. Office space and expenses. Phone lines, credit card fees and services. Lawyers, accountants.

My point being -- it sounds like a lot of money coming in through the gate, but it takes a lot of money to get and keep those gates open. And you always have to keep a healthy rainy day fund. Because you will get a crappy season, weatherwise, and while the patrons don't show up....you still have to pay for those toilets, those staff people, the advertising.

Admittedly, performers are trapped to a certain extent. A faire owner has to ask him/herself -- just how good does the act have to be, to make our patrons happy? (Remember, our bread and butter, especially at larger faires does NOT come from the regulars. The vast majority of the gate is the one-offs -- people who come once a season.) Do you pay for a couple of name acts and fill in the rest with folks who are willing to work cheaply? A name act may be a gate draw -- but will they draw enough to pay for the act itself? Go medium-range all around -- figuring people have made the decision to come to the Faire based not on the acts, but on wanting to have a good time and medium-skill is good enough. At what point do you risk having people not come back because the stage acts were not good enough? Some faire managers/owners have high standards, believing that delivering a high quality show is what brings people back over and over again. Others believe that people are really there for the whole experience and "mediocre" stage acts (and I mean that not as a slight, but in terms of polish/skill/experience/notoriety/money demanded) entertain the patrons enough.

If you only hire "names", the "best"...how do the new guys get started? How do they improve? There are only so many venues! But of course, there are shows who take advantage of that -- they know that they can always fill the stage with a new guy/group that will work cheap/free. And yes, that does drag down the pay of the pro's. There's ALWAYS a pirate group that will work for free...or damn near it.  And that's what kills the entertainers trying to make a decent wage -- you CAN be replaced, especially if you're at the low to medium end of talent/polish/experience/solidity. The people who do make a living at this work very, very hard. They have great press kits, great social and other media presence -- ensuring that they are a draw. Their act is tight and professional, original/catchy. They are known for showing up on time and delivering the goods. Which is STILL no guarantee that you'll be booked as much as you want, at the fee you want. Which is why so many are involved in other ventures -- CDs, DVDs, t-shirts, other shows, booking acts, doing documentaries, films, books, plays, being agents, working outside the rencircuit.

There are shows like ours. We are cash-poor and concentrating on building a good solid show and we're willing to plug along slowly without risking debt. We can't afford to pay our entertainers what they're worth. We get that. There are folks who would like to do our show -- that we'd love to have -- but we can't afford to do it. If you don't like the pittance we offer, we understand that you have to move on to a better opportunity. And we fear being lumped in with those shows that expect folks to work for nothing, because they can get away with it. But we're doing the best we can and our view is long-term, with a goal of eventually paying entertainers enough to forbid hatpass.

And there are other shows that have realistically looked at their budgets and said hey, we just can't afford any more than this. Or, even, your act is just not worth the extra cash to us, to our business plan and goals. It sucks, but it's a business decision. Just as you have to think "I can take this job for chump change, or I can walk away to find something better" or "I really need this on my resume, could use the practice, it's a good opportunity to polish."   You're a business person too -- only you can decide where the line lies between "I really need the cash, I have no other opportunities and something's better than nothing" and "this money is not worth getting out of my jammies. I can find another job, or another opportunity, or enjoy my time off, I'm not selling myself cheap because then they will expect it."

Anyway, that's just some thoughts from someone who writes the checks, but also lives with an entertainer, so I can play devil's advocate all day long....


vinceconaway

Quote from: L Dale Walter on November 19, 2009, 07:21:57 PM
Well, for my part, I run mostly no hat shows.  I can't see a way to make it work in the context of our performance without cheapening it.

I think the phrases "I can't see a way" and "cheapening it" are telltales here.  The idea of "cheapening" a show seems to lead directly to supposed conflicts between art and commerce, which may be a bit big to get into here.  As far as I'm concerned, entertaining your audience should be paramount and their willingness to give is a pretty solid indicator of their level of enjoyment.  And, as I read it, "I can't see a way" speaks more to inflexibility than impossibility.

Quote from: L Dale Walter on November 19, 2009, 07:21:57 PM
I do have one "hat" show that I sell, and, yes, there I agree with you.  However you still have a bottom line that you must make, or you lose money.  On rain days, or when you are up against another event, it is hard to make hat.  Nice to know your hotel, gas, and food are still covered...

Often, however, variable incomes even out over time.  You can budget using averages and have a decent idea of what to expect.  And how much are you spending on hotel, gas, and food that even a low day rate won't cover it?

L Dale Walter

Quote from: vinceconaway on November 20, 2009, 09:58:23 AM
I think the phrases "I can't see a way" and "cheapening it" are telltales here.  The idea of "cheapening" a show seems to lead directly to supposed conflicts between art and commerce, which may be a bit big to get into here.  As far as I'm concerned, entertaining your audience should be paramount and their willingness to give is a pretty solid indicator of their level of enjoyment.  And, as I read it, "I can't see a way" speaks more to inflexibility than impossibility.

Ok, lets change that.  I can't see a way to maintain the reality that I, and my employees, have worked all day to establish, to keep the believabilty of the characters in the eyes of our patrons, especially the children, when Robin Hood, or Robert Earl of Huntingdon as it were, hits them up for a dollar.  In the reality they have bought into, he is a noble, and wouldn't need their money.  SO unless you are willing to abandon the characters, and we are not, passing hat doesn't work for us. 

Inflexible?  May be, but I don't need the hat as much as I need to see that the people buy the story.

Quote from: vinceconaway on November 20, 2009, 09:58:23 AM
Often, however, variable incomes even out over time.  You can budget using averages and have a decent idea of what to expect.  And how much are you spending on hotel, gas, and food that even a low day rate won't cover it?

Depends on the show, and the number of cast.  Some of our shows have up to 15 people in them.  That takes a lot of gas and lodging.

And I like suites...

LDW

Paolo Garbanzo

#22
I've arrived late to the discussion, but I thought I would throw my 2 cents in without trying to sound too ranty.

I'm looking back at the original post and really, the only question is "Where does all the money go?"

If you're actually interested, You can (as a matter of law) ask the town/city/province that the faire is located in for the business's tax records.
this won't show you everything, but it will show profit and into what categories money was spent.  This is a matter of public record.
of course, the faire owners salary may or may not be hidden in the "employees" pay roll, or bonuses, or any number of tax loop-holes.
so take it all with a grain of salt.  But after reading all the other posts, I have a feeling this is not the real question.

I do have a problem with your opening theory:

"Substantially all forms of employment that are enjoyable and rich in intangible rewards pay poorly.  Nowhere is this more true than in the arts.  Visit any forum frequented by commercial musicians, photographers, actors, sculptors, painters, writers, etc., and if you read between the lines, an omnipresent low-level buzz of discontent over pay rates and frustration with newcomers to the activity screwing up the market can be discerned."

I'm not going to say that I'm paid handsomely, but I do all right.  Also, many of my friends are doing ok too.  They are musicians, actors, sculptors, painters and writers.  are we disgruntled about not making more money?  If we are, then we should be doing something about it.  I love performing!  I get to do it 2 days (sometimes more) per week!  The rest of the week I'm my own agent, secretary, web designer, cook, bottle washer, and head intern.

your last line is a whole other can of worms, but the shortest story I can make of that is this:  If you're new, you don't charge a lot because you lack experience, you want to work and gain experience, build a show, build skills, etc.  Can you command a high price? ...NO.  so you charge what they will accept, which isn't much.  Hopefully, someday, when you've gained experience and are working your way around the circuit you charge more because you're a known quality.  What happens when some new kid comes in "on the cheap" like you did?  They hire him.  Does the faire keep you?  That depends on you and the faire.

some faires don't really care about the quality of the acts that they hire, they just go by price and sometimes the assumed draw that an act will have.  "do we have a juggler? Check! Magician? Check! joust? Check! Celtic Music Act? Check! Sword fight Act? Check!"  As long at the boxes are checked off, they don't care if they got a good one, they got The Cheap One.  Usually the faire as a set entertainment budget, and if they can save some money, they will.  If it means they can get their sword fighting act AND a couple more musicians for the price of of just your show, they will consider this a deal.

It's time for you to move on to a faire that values your quality and/or had the budget.  Are the newbies driving down the price?  Maybe for a show that doesn't care or have the money.
If they tell you that someone else will do it for a hundred dollars cheaper, Let them.  Your only power as a performer when negotiating with that attitude is your willingness to walk away.

You then touch on the largest renaissance festival in the US (TRF).  this faire makes money.  There is no doubt the owner of this festival is walking away with a stack of cash.  but it took a while to get there.  There are several other faires in the US that do well also.  These are mostly very established faires that are over 25 years old.  Remember, most business ventures in the US fail!!  (this is outside of Ren Faires!!!)

You also talk about some of the other non-entertainment costs.  Faire are expensive, yes, millions go into some of them, but millions come out of them.  But this changes not only from year to year for an individual festival, but from festival to festival.  Some reinvest, some don't.

So where does the "unaccounted milions" go?  To the producer of the festival, the person(s) who laid down the cash and took the risk in the first place.
This happens for rock concerts as well as ren faires.

just my 2 cents.

Paolo
*Images and URLs not allowed in signature* - Admin

meauho

As an organizer of conventions - who is constantly questioned about where our "piles" of money go - I would like to point out:

Attendance numbers
Is attendance counted on paid attendance, or does it include all visitors - even if they got free tickets for one reason or another?
Do the attendance numbers count the staff?  At many conventions, it does.  I don't know if TRF does, but over 16 weeks, just the clean up staff and registration could count for a couple of thousand.

Police
Anybody ever hired cops before?  Now hire them for 24 hours, for weeks on end, and lets get a couple of dozen or more...

Insurance
For a 5,000 attendee convention, we have to have $1 million or more in insurance.  This is without insuring Jousting, attendees with swords, people juggling fire, birds that may view audience members as food, slippery mud, etc, etc.

Staff benefits
Many faires offer staff free tickets for family/ friends as part of their pay.  This can skew attendance numbers (because they don't get paid for these attendees, but they still count). 

State/ Federal taxes for employing people
Remember, employees aren't the only ones to pay taxes - employers pay as well.  In addition to taxes, they have to carry worker's compensation, and other state or federally regulated services, insurance, taxes, and fees related to employees - even when they are non-profits.

There is more, but it's late and I'm tired.  Just saying, take a look at the whole faire, including what goes on behind the scenes.




"New ideas are always suspected, and usually opposed,without any other reason but because they are not already common."