I know there are many religions represent here on the boards and a lot of open minded people. I hope some of you will find this as offense as I do and sign the petition at the link below.
Does Kathy Lee Gifford Hate Pagans?
Thursday June 26, 2008
I'd rather remove my eyes with a spork than sit through seven minutes of Kathy Lee Gifford, but reader TwinkerBelle tipped me off to this video of yesterday's Today Show. Apparently Kathy Lee was going around a wedding asking people little quizzy questions so she could give them gift bags. Here's the exchange:
Kathy Lee: Why do you wear your wedding band on your left hand ring finger? Is it because (a) most people write with their right hand? Is it (b), because Egyptians believed that finger follows the vein of love to the heart, or (c), the Pagans -- the nasty, bad Pagans -- believed it was bad luck to wear metal on your right side?
Now, I know Kathy Lee is all big into born-again Christianity, and she's quite devout -- more power to her, she's welcome to be. But really, Kathy Lee, was that little dig necessary? If she had said, "Those greedy, sneaky Jews" or "Those dirty, unwashed Hindus", or any other ugly stereotype, it would have been equally obnoxious.
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/quotnasty-bad-pagansquot-protesting-hate-speech-on-nbc
>:( People like her keep hate and anger going, she makes me sick! Didn't care for her on Regis and dislike her even more now! >:(
I got this too, I am glad you posted it here, because what really makes me angry about it is the tolerance that people have for these kinds of comments when it comes to Pagan beliefs. I mean, did you hear about the boy scouts who were thrown out for telling the truth about who they were? Inconcievable. In my opinion this is no different than the horrible racial slur uttered by dog the bounty hunter which caused his show to be canceled for a while. The only real difference is that he said it on a private phone call and this was spread all over the airwaves. Why perpetuate this kind of hate? Why perpetuate this kind of ignorance. Tolerance seems not to be an important part of Christianity in her bizarre world.
Some people who are Christians need to do their research about their own holidays, services, and the origins thereof. There are mighty few pure religions that do not have some crossover - ie, borrowed similarities... Whatever happened to tolerance and freedom?
Sad.
Capt Marga
I am a Christian, and I am embarassed by her comment. It was rude, ignorant and very unprofessional. She should be ashamed of herself.
Please don't think that those of us who are Christians are all that narrow minded.
If Ms. Gifford had half a brain, she'd realize that Jesus was the most tolerant person to ever live. If she would shut up long enough, she could also learn a few things from Him.
Well said, Kate!
Pagans, the overweight and I've noticed autistic kids (seen that with my own eyes) seem to be parts of society that are, "Okay" to pick on. Makes me furius, since 1. I am Wiccan, 2. I used to be 320 pounds (now 159) and 3. I have an son with autism. It just blows my mind what people who are either, 1. ignorant, or 2. devoid of empathy will allow to come out of their mouths.
Also, I've never really liked her much. I don't know why, cause I try to find redeeming qualities in everyone, but I'm at a loss with her.
Quote from: Kiss-me-Kate on July 05, 2008, 02:01:47 AM
I am a Christian, and I am embarassed by her comment. It was rude, ignorant and very unprofessional. She should be ashamed of herself.
Please don't think that those of us who are Christians are all that narrow minded.
If Ms. Gifford had half a brain, she'd realize that Jesus was the most tolerant person to ever live. If she would shut up long enough, she could also learn a few things from Him.
In no way do I find all Christians to be like this. My own daughter is Christian and attends church regularly. I'm very happy that she does and that it works for her. But she also realizes that I'm still her mom and haven't really changed that much (grew up Christian like most). I just simple look at God (the all) differently than she does and she accepts that. Just wish others could see and understand that.
It doesn't matter if you are Christian, Jew or Pagan. This is a insult to the religious freedom of all Americans. If we allow any group to be disparaged who will be the next one to be the unacceptable belief?
Quote from: Queen_of_Navarre on July 05, 2008, 08:01:58 AM
It doesn't matter if you are Christian, Jew or Pagan. This is a insult to the religious freedom of all Americans. If we allow any group to be disparaged who will be the next one to be the unacceptable belief?
Perfectly said, okay to bash one group, okay to bash another. However, we have to allow it to some degree, because I believe in freedom of speech. Even from the people who hop cause their feet are in their mouths. Whch is sadly why I support her freedom to say such idiocy, even if I never want to hear it. Part of free speech is putting up with the ignorant. However, I don't have to give them a soapbox, keep it clean and shiny and listen to what they say. Harumph.
I give that Witch (Replace W with B as a Witch is not the best name for her) No credit. Remember that she was the one crying about Child labor and in fact her line of clothing was made by Child Labor.
And isn't it funny how as Pagans we now their christian religion more than those who try to spout all this bible stuff. Who made them Judge? It wasn't their God.
Not every Christian is bad, but Mrs. Gifford is not one of them. It's people like her that make this world a sad place filled with Hate.
I've been a pagan for a long time. Let's see, forty four, minus thirteen. OH DEAR GODDESS!!!! I can't possibly be that old. I've seen some pretty disfunctional, fascist pagans too. There are a few in every faith. The larger the faith the greater the numbers.
Firstly: I in no way condone bashing anyone's religious beliefs (or no beliefs, if they choose).
However, the first post got me curious, since I didn't see a link to the video. So I went online to find it, and I watched it. And, risking the ire of some of the members here, I don't think it was said to offend anybody. I really don't. She is interviewing guests in the middle of a wedding, asking a question about something from a thousand years ago. Don't you think she could have been jokingly referring to some of the customs back then?
I got my Renaissance magazines out from the various wedding issues. Statements like "since pagan belief still loomed strong in the minds of the times" (while speaking of weddings in the Middle Ages), could bring to mind the fact that long ago grooms kidnapped their brides and took them away from their parent's homes, the "honeymoon," and other rituals of current marriage traditions that date back to pagan ritual. Including one from about 8 miles from my husband's family home in Weymouth, Dorset. In a town called Cerne Abbas, there is a huge carved giant on the whole side of the hill, including his male endowment. In the old times, the night before the wedding, the bride to be would climb the hill and sit right on top of this particular body part, to ask for fertility during her marriage.
Could she have half-jokingly referred to things like that -- instead of bashing a religion? After seeing it, this was my first impression. But then I went back to what I had googled, and saw some postings from a Wiccan group, in which some of the members said it was no big deal, and they didn't feel like they were being slurred.
Again, I would never, ever, ever condone bashing anyone's religious beliefs, but I really don't think she meant what is being purported (and I am not a KL fan, either).
Just a little known fact that exists:
People in Europe wear their wedding bands on their right finger, not the left which is totally a USA thing. To wear a ring on the left, signals you are available.
As for religion bashing....being a Pagan/Celtic Minister, my answer to this is:
If only closed minds, came with closed mouths.
Quote from: Lady Renee Buchanan on July 05, 2008, 05:20:40 PM
Firstly: I in no way condone bashing anyone's religious beliefs (or no beliefs, if they choose).
However, the first post got me curious, since I didn't see a link to the video. So I went online to find it, and I watched it. And, risking the ire of some of the members here, I don't think it was said to offend anybody. I really don't. She is interviewing guests in the middle of a wedding, asking a question about something from a thousand years ago. Don't you think she could have been jokingly referring to some of the customs back then?
I got my Renaissance magazines out from the various wedding issues. Statements like "since pagan belief still loomed strong in the minds of the times" (while speaking of weddings in the Middle Ages), could bring to mind the fact that long ago grooms kidnapped their brides and took them away from their parent's homes, the "honeymoon," and other rituals of current marriage traditions that date back to pagan ritual. Including one from about 8 miles from my husband's family home in Weymouth, Dorset. In a town called Cerne Abbas, there is a huge carved giant on the whole side of the hill, including his male endowment. In the old times, the night before the wedding, the bride to be would climb the hill and sit right on top of this particular body part, to ask for fertility during her marriage.
Could she have half-jokingly referred to things like that -- instead of bashing a religion? After seeing it, this was my first impression. But then I went back to what I had googled, and saw some postings from a Wiccan group, in which some of the members said it was no big deal, and they didn't feel like they were being slurred.
Again, I would never, ever, ever condone bashing anyone's religious beliefs, but I really don't think she meant what is being purported (and I am not a KL fan, either).
I don't think the problem is that she was refering to things handed down from pagan tradition (by the pagan was one of the wrong answers. Ironically, I think it was a Roman tradtion and the Roman religion is considered a pagan religion..but I digress.). If she had just said, Pagan I don't think anyone would give two hoots about it. But she added the "bad,nasty" to it. Historical Pagans were neither "bad" nor "nasty" either. Still, it continues a common misconception that anyone who isn't Christian is "bad".
So even if she were totally ignorant about modern paganism (which wouldn't surprise me), its still uncalled for. You wouldn't say bad, nasty Aztecs or bad, nasty Egyptians.
Unfortunately, this may not be only an issue of morality; she is in show business. I would bet this pithy remark scored her points with the fundamentalists ::)
In either case, the All-Father has plans, I am sure.
The miserable man and evil minded
makes of all things mockery,
and knows not that which he best should know,
that he is not free from faults.
Havamal, verse 22
Ironically, I think it was a Roman tradition and the Roman religion is considered a pagan religion..but I digress
As a trivial information collector and Latin Competion participant ( Kinda like academic team only for Latin Language, Culture, etc) I can confirm that it is indeed a Roman tradition....there was a belief that there was a vein that attached directly to the heart in the left ring finger ;D
O.K., I tracked the video down and watched the whole segment...it reminded me of why I am glad I have a day job and miss daytime TV! Did anyone note the hosts bashed Cathy Lee at the begining by saying "the winner gets a gift bag and the loser gets Cathy's new CD"? She even apologized to one "loser" while presenting them with her CD. I think she tried to be funny and missed (she's no Carlos Mencia!).
I think it is less a case of "hate speach" and more a case of bad TV. Not smart to be sure but far from a hate filled rant. A prime example of network ignorance. ::)
Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, AKA Mahatma Gandhi once said:
"I like your Christ, Your Christians, not so much. They are so unlike your Christ"
...take it for what it's worth.
Quote from: Angus on July 06, 2008, 09:59:10 PM
Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, AKA Mahatma Gandhi once said:
"I like your Christ, Your Christians, not so much. They are so unlike your Christ"
...take it for what it's worth.
And yet as a Christian I am not offended...as I understand the truth in his words. It is a hard thing to live up to ones own ideals. I have met jerks of all races, creeds, and orientations. Though not near as poetic as Gandhi, it is nevertheless true, "Mean people suck".
Well said Dreg. Direct and to the point.
I still think she shouldn't have said something like that. It was rude and unprofessional.
Maybe it irks me so much because I just can't stand her.
As for daytime tv, I can't believe it is so awful. Just drivel and crap. I guess she fits right in.
I thought prime time tv was bad...
Quote from: Kiss-me-Kate on July 06, 2008, 11:04:43 PM
I still think she shouldn't have said something like that. It was rude and unprofessional.
Ummm... ok
This
IS Kathy Lee we are speaking of. I, as a Pagan, could not give a rats behind what she says or believes. I really do not think that this has changed anyones thinking or influenced anyones stereotypes on Pagans. You can hear worse on "The Believer's Voice of Victory" any day of the week anyway.
Sorry... but I for one think it is one of those "Get over it!" things.
And as a side note:
Not that Pagans recruit... but if they did, would we WANT people that
like Kathy Lee as followers? LOL
That was highly unprofessional of her, but consider the source, unfortunately. I'd certainly like to believe that non-Christians don't view her lack of class as a reflection on all Christians, however, any more than I think bad behavior from someone else should reflect on their particular faith, or ethnicity, or economic status, or hair color, or whatever...
I'll give her props for one thing, though- it's got to take an enormous amount of talent to talk with one's foot shoved so deeply in their yap.
I've frequently found myself insulted by those who mock my Christian beliefs. Often, it's done as a joke, with no "hate" intended. But the words can still sting, particularly when they are based on negative stereotypes.
I suspect Ms. Gifford has done something similar with Paganism - making an offhand mocking "joke" without considering whether it would genuinely be insulting. It was coarse and stupid, but calling it "hate speech" seems too much of a reach.
Quote from: Fenrisulfr on July 06, 2008, 04:21:45 PM
Unfortunately, this may not be only an issue of morality; she is in show business. I would bet this pithy remark scored her points with the fundamentalists ::)
In either case, the All-Father has plans, I am sure.
The miserable man and evil minded
makes of all things mockery,
and knows not that which he best should know,
that he is not free from faults.
Havamal, verse 22
well said.
It's fear-based speak of the ignorant.
On a cognitive-behavioral level, I've found that folks who make statements like this, are really speaking to their own thoughts and feelings about themselves.
Gramercy to KL for giving us the opportunity to think on our own stereotypes and prejudices...and setting them free.
(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn296/adurso/Goddess/l_00ff80716638527defc5dfbf750974a0.jpg)
Quote from: Kiss-me-Kate on July 05, 2008, 02:01:47 AM
I am a Christian, and I am embarassed by her comment. It was rude, ignorant and very unprofessional. She should be ashamed of herself.
Please don't think that those of us who are Christians are all that narrow minded.
If Ms. Gifford had half a brain, she'd realize that Jesus was the most tolerant person to ever live. If she would shut up long enough, she could also learn a few things from Him.
My sentiments exactly, Kate.
Quote from: RumbaRue on July 06, 2008, 12:30:06 PM
If only closed minds, came with closed mouths.
I LOVE this! What a great way to put it!
I had this weird dream- Kathy Lee Saying, "Nobody move, I've dropped me brain..."
Quote from: Tipsy Gypsy on July 07, 2008, 01:27:00 PM
I'll give her props for one thing, though- it's got to take an enormous amount of talent to talk with one's foot shoved so deeply in their yap.
*Snort* yep you do have to admire her for that. I was curious after reading the first page of posts so I throttled down my urge to gag at anything KL & watched it. She was trying to be funny & fell Horribly flat....much like her Music career come to think of it.
Well I`am a christain, and NO I don`t not agree with what went on. she has offened and hurt people she dosen`t even know .There is a big differeance between the self-righteiousness, and those who are simlpy saved by grace. by what Jesus did. I `am saved by grace and grace alone not of my own works. The self-rightious are what most people run into today, they have no love in them only a stern rule and comdeming tounge. Jesus comdemed the reglious and self -righteiousness in the church for that very thing.They were then and still are today the reason why people have become so offended and or hurt, they bear no love. Jesus loves everyone, no matter who you are or what you do He loves you by His choice,not by the choices you make. Most of self-rightious people won`t love you unless you are like them, and do what they do, they will not allow you to be you. For that I`am sorry, I`am sorry that any of you were hurt. I know that what she is doing is NOT pleaseing to God and she dose what she does of her own free will. For Me I chose to LOVE YOU at all costs. I`am sorry you were hurt.
Well said Daylight, I applud you and your open accepting mind.
Personally I did not see the segment, so I'm basing my opinions off of this thread. For that alone, I ask forgiveness.
Anyway.
I am a Christian and fairly strong and I'll be the first to admit that I'm not perfect, but I don't believe anyone in any other religion is perfect either. I do not believe that I currently have any pagan friends (off-line, at least), though I do have friends from many different belief systems.
If she said that to offend, then yes, even I am upset by it. Just because I disagree with the pagan way of thinking, does not in any way give me the right to bash a pagan. If she was saying it to be funny, and not offend, (despite the poor taste) then it doesn't bother me as much, though I'm still annoyed that she'd try something like that to be funny.
The one thing that bugs me the most, and it seems like most of you don't do this, is when people lump the entire group together and blame them all for the actions of one. The Christians I know would never purposely offend anyone and the same is true for my Jewish friends, atheistic friends, agnostic friends, etc. There are hypocrites in all belief systems. Not just mine and honestly that is what bugs me the most.
I try to be open minded, and I probably fail miserably due to the fact that I am more stubborn than a mule. (It's true and it has sometimes pissed my friends off) But on the other hand, I am trying and I'm willing to sit and listen to someone explain their beliefs to me. I probably won't ever change my mind, but at least I'm listening and I'm trying to be open minded. I know there are alot of close minded people out there and sometimes, I am one of them. And I doubt it is a good thing.
I apologize if anyone was offended by the actions of her or any other Christians. Personally, I believe if a Christian is trying to offend, then they aren't acting very christianly. Last I checked part of being Christian was to not be self-righteous because we don't have the ability to be perfect or whatever. We're all gonna screw up. It's human nature. So don't think of yourself as any better than another because even to Christians we are all equal, whether we have the same beliefs or no.
Okay, so that is my rant. And I'm sorry if it got boring or anything or confusing... I tend to not always make sense.
please don't assume because of her actions that all Christians are like Kathy Lee. Yes I'm a Christian too I don't denigh it nor will i be ashamed of it. I also don't hide that fact of who i am. I am not about to Bash you because you don't have a relationship with my savior. Too Call you and what you believe names doesn't make you feel good and I know is rather offensive. Even though i would hope you to come to know my savior I'm not about to go insult you or what you believe. I can only be who i am and hope that something in me draws you and you find yourself wanting what i have. I am sorry that she has done this is make the rest of us look like crazy Zealots. As Previously stated bye Lady_Claira because we are Christians doesn't make us perfect Being a Christian means we have relationship with Jesus and that we want to be more like him. It doesn't mean becaue your outside of what i believe that i have a right to call you bad or insult what you believe i strive to respect everyone's faith on here even those who believe in nothing at all. Please respect my faith as well and please forgive her too.
I think the reason it struck such a nerve is because as a pagan, most people I encounter have very set ideas about what it means to be pagan and most of it is derogatory and most of it is wrong. People envision orgies and drugs and maybe even some sort of devil worship. Granted I am quite a bit on the earthy crunchy granola side of things, and that alone causes me no end of problems just getting through a lunch hour at work, or getting my child through a meal at school (we are vegetarian as part of our belief set and this has to do with the earth, not the animals but I digress)
When the only way your most cherished beliefs are portrayed is negative, each and every one of those little daggers only serve to promote hatred and misinformation. That is why its a big deal. The fact that I cannot wear a small tasteful pentagram to work without worrying about my career, the fact that my son cant tell the scout troop what we are or we would be thrown out...
And what most people who arent pagans do not know is that we are all much more alike than we are different. I wish that before labeling us bad and nasty, she would bother to get to know one.
I dont blame her for her ignorance, I just wish she wouldnt promote it to the masses. I do believe it was a feeble attempt at humor but it fell way short and needs to be addressed on a public forum to erase some of the damage caused by her comment.
just my tuppence..
When the only way your most cherished beliefs are portrayed is negative
Like Christians in popular media? In the popular media Christian means either an ignorant redneck or a dangerous fanatic.
But scouting shouldn't be a problem the Scouts have members from most religions many of which are classified as pagan in that they are not monotheistic. Scouting is popular in Japan for example with has only a small monotheistic population the overwhelming majority are Shinto and Buddhist. In fact the scouts give out awards set up by Buddhist. If a Scout master made a issue of someone being Pagan he would in fact be breaking Scouting regulations and rules.
As for wearing a pentagram to work I guess that depends on the company you work at. I can't wear any jewelry were I work but its a safety issue jewelry and high voltage don't mix will at least not if you wish to keep all your bits in the right places.
Just remember that ever group is made up of the tolerant and the intolerant no one has exclusive rights to good or bad manners.
Every group has people who mock their beliefs and their diety(ies). It's part and parcel of being human, sadly. To some the assertion that they have all the answers for everyone means they are right and they want desperatly to be right. People like neat bundles and answers and it's scary to think you might be wrong about your faith system, your rearing of your children, you're lifestyle in a way that might mean you've made some horrible mistakes in your life, or harmed yourself because of your choices.
Although I'd sure like to know where all these pagan orgies and drugs were when I first became Wiccan, cause I really missed out.
Although I'd sure like to know where all these pagan orgies and drugs were when I first became Wiccan, cause I really missed out.
I understand personally I'm upset none of my Pagan friends have never invited me to join them at the orgies. I mean come on they could have least asked. I'm hurt that they never considered me worth trying to recruit.
Quote from: SirRichardBear on July 14, 2008, 01:12:19 PM
Although I'd sure like to know where all these pagan orgies and drugs were when I first became Wiccan, cause I really missed out.
I understand personally I'm upset none of my Pagan friends have never invited me to join them at the orgies. I mean come on they could have least asked. I'm hurt that they never considered me worth trying to recruit.
Well the next time I hear of a real live, not just idiots playing at being pagan cause they watched, "the Crap" orgy, I'll give you a shout. Don't hold your breath, cause it's never happened to me and I've been at this since I was thirteen. I'm forty four now. I've seen it all, from people using it for power, to tree huggers, to folks who were looking for a home that felt right to facists and honest lovers of the earth. In other words, the good, the bad and the dear god, I've lost my book of Shadows and I think my dad just found it.
Quote from: nliedel on July 14, 2008, 02:24:14 PM
Well the next time I hear of a real live, not just idiots playing at being pagan cause they watched, "the Crap" orgy, I'll give you a shout. Don't hold your breath, cause it's never happened to me and I've been at this since I was thirteen. I'm forty four now. I've seen it all, from people using it for power, to tree huggers, to folks who were looking for a home that felt right to facists and honest lovers of the earth. In other words, the good, the bad and the dear god, I've lost my book of Shadows and I think my dad just found it.
WOW.. I could have written that post entirely myself based on my own experiences.