I am actually dressing up for the very first time this year and I am having trouble figuring out how all the lovely Ren Faire ladies get that fantastic cleavage. I have 34D's so I know I have enough to get the effect but I'm not too sure how to do it. Should I buy a corset? A bustier? Tape them up? I'd appreciate any suggestions :)
First, are you sure this is something you want to do? It's a) fantasy and b)a look I know a lot of women have ended up regretting. The look will invite the creeps and that's not necessarily something you want. It's also not flattering as many women end up looking like they are carrying flesh toned jello around in their chemise by the end of the day.
If you are sure you want this look, any low cut bodice that is at least 2inches smaller around the bust that you currently are (your bust measurement and your bra measurement are different!) will work.
I, also, am "gifted" in the same area. My husband loves looking at the girls! Although well=made bodices can be worn without a bra, I prefer to wear one. To me, it's more comfortable. Invest in a good VS bra. They are not cheap, but it will last for many years if you are going to use it for faire.
If you do decide to go bra-less, bodices from Moresca, Pendragon, Hearts Delight, Odd Bodkin (I'm sure there are probably more but this is what I am familiar with), have enough boning that gives the support that you will need. I suggest you try on several different bodices at faire from different vendors to see which feel most comfortable and give you the look you want.
Some people wear corsets under bodices, but in our miserably hot faire weather, it's too hot for me.
Just beware of the puppies showing, and the "shelf effect" aka "ti** on a platter."
The key is getting great support and structure from your undergarments. Start with a decent bra (unlike Lady Renee, I go with a cheap T-shirt bra--it only has to hold my assets in place; the bodice will do the rest. But experiment and see what works best for you). Then make sure your bodice fits snugly, and by "snugly," I mean you should think, "this will never close!" when you put it on. If the edges meet easily, it's too big. I think the most critical part of the fit is around the ribcage, just like the band of your bra is the most critical part to fit correctly. That's what's going to hold you up.
Lace yourself halfway to 2/3 of the way up, and then perform the ELM, "Elizabethan Lift Maneuver." ;) Bend forward, reach inside your bra, and lift your assets into place, above the snug-fitting part at the ribcage. Don't go overboard (a crease near the armpit means you've been overzealous). Arrange your assets, then tug up on your chemise so that everything is flattering, but not indecent.
I think it's Margo Anderson who has the wonderful drawing of what a proper Elizabethan bustline should look like--gently swelling & rounded above the bodice, not sloshing all over the place. But I'm dashing off to fair at the moment and don't have time to look for it!
(If you are wearing a properly fitting pair of bodies--an Elizabethan corset--you won't need a bra. But it can still be helpful in wrangling your assets and will help you dress yourself, by yourself.)
Quote from: gem on September 13, 2014, 10:28:46 AM
I think the most critical part of the fit is around the ribcage, just like the band of your bra is the most critical part to fit correctly. That's what's going to hold you up.
Lace yourself halfway to 2/3 of the way up, and then perform the ELM, "Elizabethan Lift Maneuver." ;) Bend forward, reach inside your bra, and lift your assets into place, above the snug-fitting part at the ribcage. Don't go overboard (a crease near the armpit means you've been overzealous). Arrange your assets, then tug up on your chemise so that everything is flattering, but not indecent.
The ELM is also known as 'fluffing the puppies' so as not to shock the mundanes. The support from below is what is critical, as Gem has said. Too much pressure too high will make lumps come out the armpit, also known as the quadri-puppies.
I don't care for wearing a bra with my bodice- too much stuff to poke you unless it's a soft almost sports bra type bra. Some are designed to wear a bra with (damsel in this dress advocates wearing a bra) (I'm a 36F, my bras are working overtime anyway)
Any bodice at fair (as long as it fits properly) will give you good lift, that's what they're designed to do- as Isabella said, anything that is 2 inches smaller will suck you in and push everything up. You may have to try a few designs to find the right balance between Heavage and Cleavage. I think I read somewhere that your bodice should be right around/just above your "pup's noses" and your chemise should be an inch or two above that.
ALSO- be careful of bodice burn if you are not used to displaying so much of your body! Even on overcast, fall days you need to lather up on the sunscreen- those parts have not seen the sun and will need protection!
Quote from: gypsylakat on September 15, 2014, 09:16:31 AM
Any bodice at fair (as long as it fits properly) will give you good lift, that's what they're designed to do- as Isabella said, anything that is 2 inches smaller will suck you in and push everything up. You may have to try a few designs to find the right balance between Heavage and Cleavage. I think I read somewhere that your bodice should be right around/just above your "pup's noses" and your chemise should be an inch or two above that.
ALSO- be careful of bodice burn if you are not used to displaying so much of your body! Even on overcast, fall days you need to lather up on the sunscreen- those parts have not seen the sun and will need protection!
I assume you are going for the 'wench' look? I don't do that anymore, but as a beginner garb; it seems to be the most popular for many ladies. It's a relatively cheap, comfortable garbing option, and can look good if done right.
While frequently seen at faire, as Isabella has mentioned-it's not at all Historical. I seriously doubt ANY woman in period ran around with her chest exposed like we see nowadays. She would have been arrested.
But if that's your thing- As gypsykat says- there is a well defined line between 'Heavage' and 'Cleavage.' Both are sought after effects; depending on what image you wish to convey.
For clarity: Cleavage is what you see at a club, at the Oscars, etc. A firmly rounded though pronounced swell that is secure, and does not look like it's just a bump away from indecency. If done right-your assets look abundantly generous, attractive in a lovely frame of ruffles, lace or peeking above the top of a daringly cut and well fitted bodice. What is suggested, but unseen, is what is alluring.
'Puppies' (nipples and aureola) are well covered and undetectable under the chemise.
Heavage is a term generally reserved for (mostly) very well endowed ladies wearing little if any upper undergarments, usually under a very thin chemise, frequently leaving very little to the imagination. They generally wear very tight corsets/bodices for greater effect, the breasts are forced up as high as possible and as far forward as they can go achieving horizontal cleavage, and the chemise/bodice edge is worn as low as decently possible.
Seriously, you don't need to show practically your entire breast to convince folks you have large ones. If you are showing more than 1/3 you are probably showing too much.
Sun screen is always advised. An interesting bodice burn on delicate, normally protected skin is not only painful, but your older self will thank you when your neck and chest don't end up a wrinkled, leathery mess by your 40's.
Most of faire is not historically accurate. I for one like the cleavage and the heavage ;)
I will say the lacings on your bodice/ corset are important. It you are lacing yourself you could get one look vs having another person. My DH has gotten very good at lacing me into my bodice. Just as a good bra lifts and supports so should your bodice. I see so many people who think if they tighten the laces at the bottom it will push it all to the top. All that will do is make you pass out in the dirt. A gradual pull in , then adjust, then tighten where you want more support. The only time I have purposefully hurt someone in a theater setting is when I caught a guy tight lacing one of my actresses and she was passing out, and he was STILL tightening the laces to give her more cleavage. I body slammed him out of the way, loosed her corset, and then properly laced her up myself. Don't let anyone lace you in unless they know what they are doing. Worse case have someone do their best, then have a clerk in a store help you. I've done that a few times when my weight fluxuated and I needed help getting it right.
Just as you wouldn't get a cheap bra, don't get a cheap corset/ bodice. I have seen many a girl be miserable because they can't get the support they want from the cheap corset/bodice. Yes you may get sticker shock at the brands that Lady Renne suggested, but there is a reason we recommend them. I would only add 'Wench in Gear" to her list. Any of those suggested, when laced right can support you and hold you in such way to get the support you want.
Each brand has a different fit, so it is best to try some on. The main thing is get something that supports, and lifts you the way you want. And get put into it properly. :)
I just love all the euphemisms... ROFL!
Gauwyn and Merlin-Rogues! The both of you ;D
I second LadyStitch- the really good quality bodices will cost you. My two favorite Non-HA sources are Damsel in this Dress and Moresca.
Moresca leans more toward 'Carnival' styles :
http://www.moresca.com/ (http://www.moresca.com/)
You can't beat them for well constructed and well boned Bliss-Moresca guarantees their bodices, and will repair torn grommets and certain other damage usually for free. I personally own 2-a Max and a Max II.
*A rule of thumb: If the only boning the bodice has is next to the grommets-then it's not meant to be used to do any serious 'squishing'. Especially if it only has 2 layers or regular fabric-like most 'reversible' bodices do. They will rip and tear after a couple of wearings.
Damsel In This Dress provides the same high level of quality as Moresca and is more 'Wenchy' but beware the copycats; they are everywhere!
I was finding knockoffs of her designs at just about every garb vendor at all the faires this year; and they are NOT nearly as well constructed. Even less so if you buy a look alike from Ebay. Like most cheaper bodices-The knockoffs will not tolerate any significant tight lacing or 'squishing', without popping grommets and seams.
Damsel's corsets and corset coats are designed to be laced tightly, AND they look amazing on the curvy figure.
http://damseldress.com/store/index/category/42/renaissance (http://damseldress.com/store/index/category/42/renaissance)
There are other bodice vendors that make lovely items but theses two are more along the line of what a 'wench' would want.
I have 3 Moresca pirate bodices. They are extremely well made, comfortable and lift the girls just right. In my avatar I'm wearing a Moresca faerie bodice.
Gina B. Burkett
Morseca bodices are sooooo flattering-especially the Pirate. That style is famous for paring 5+" off the appearance of your waist. Very popular.
*Note* If you go with Moresca, you will be required to provide your measurements before they fill any orders: Moresca sizes run small, which is why they insist on it.
I don't know how the Pirate style is sized, but in the Mega and Max's -a Medium is 26"-30" waist. The bust is not much bigger-they are designed to smash you flat and push everything up-this can be uncomfortable for those of us over a 'C' cup. However, you don't need a bra.
My girls are a lot smaller now due to losing 57 pounds. I bought a Pendragon bodice at Bristol last mknth and love it. I get a little bump going.braless.
Showing some cleavage is ok. Too much, why bother?
Quote from: Lady Kathleen of Olmsted on September 16, 2014, 03:54:26 PM
Showing some cleavage is ok. Too much, why bother?
Why bother?!
Eye candy for us men folk! That's why!
Quote from: Butch on September 17, 2014, 06:44:29 AM
Quote from: Lady Kathleen of Olmsted on September 16, 2014, 03:54:26 PM
Showing some cleavage is ok. Too much, why bother?
Why bother?!
Eye candy for us men folk! That's why!
This and many of the other male comments on this bother me greatly - it's also why I don't think women should wear such things. Basically, because due to the Germanic influences early on in this country, breasts are seen as sexual objects and not as the two lumps of fat surrounding glands that they are (this is why the French have a very different view). When you wear low cut bodices like this, you are basically saying "I am nothing more than a sexual object" and not a woman with a mind of her own. It's revolting to me .
The saying is the "clothes make the man". In this case, your clothes (which is what garb is) makes you on the same level as a stripper. Is that really what you want?
Quote from: Butch on September 17, 2014, 06:44:29 AM
Quote from: Lady Kathleen of Olmsted on September 16, 2014, 03:54:26 PM
Showing some cleavage is ok. Too much, why bother?
Why bother?!
Eye candy for us men folk! That's why!
:) ;) :D ;D :o 8) ::)
Alrighty peoples....lets get back on topic. Everyone has the right to choose as they see fit. It is a matter of personal choice in the manner of which you dress on a daily basis and on special occasions. So...lets not attack people who go to either extreme.
Even though the OP has not chimed in-I think we have answered her questions.
She will select a look and try it out; either she will like the response she gets, or not, and will adjust accordingly.
We have all tried out new looks, and have either loved or hated them.
Actually, I would encourage her to consider joining the International Wenches Guild (IWG) and read/post there for further advice of this sort ;). They will be able to advise her on the Do's (Don'ts) of the Daring Decolletage.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on September 17, 2014, 08:33:01 AM
When you wear low cut bodices like this, you are basically saying "I am nothing more than a sexual object" and not a woman with a mind of her own. It's revolting to me .
The saying is the "clothes make the man". In this case, your clothes (which is what garb is) makes you on the same level as a stripper. Is that really what you want?
I happen to like my breasts and how I look in my low cut garb, that's why I sewed it that way. Comparing me to a mindless sex object is highly offensive to me. How is it better when you belittle and objectify a fellow woman than when a man does it?
I'm sorry if you were offended. It was meant only to show how the individual would be viewed in the real world rather than how they want to be viewed. We all often have ideas of how things should be which do not take into account the baseness that actually exists in the world nor how to combat that.
However, I also find it interesting that you are only offended by me and not by the male comments.
They said eye candy meaning something they like to look at, nothing they said placed judgement on other attributes; you said sexual object, not a woman with a mind of her own, revolting, and stripper therefore judging everything about me based on my appearance. There is a difference.
I was hoping to insert a little off topic but still relavent question to the experienced ladies in th conversation... a couple of you mentioned the importance of using sunscreen on the declotage. An error I made this past year in Colorado. I attempted to remedy it the following day, but was very concerned about the sunscreen ruining the soft linen of my new camica. Do you ladies have a sunscreen of choice that isnt greasy, and you do not have to worry about it staining delicate fabrics?
@Prima, Idk about staining fabrics, but you'll get less greasy results by using a face sunscreen, I like neutrogena's formula.
I would spot test it on a similar fabric.
Quote from: gypsylakat on September 17, 2014, 02:56:47 PM
@Prima, Idk about staining fabrics, but you'll get less greasy results by using a face sunscreen, I like neutrogena's formula.
I would spot test it on a similar fabric.
I love neutrogena. I use it on my hands as well as my neck/face at events. It hasn't caused any issues with the linen chemises. (or any allergic reactions for me which is also a plus!) However, there was one (I got it on sale at Target and threw it out. I can't recall the name, sorry!) that gave me pink spots any where the sunscreen touched the linen. They did come out - oxyclean and tide with a couple drops of Dawn will get out almost anything- so it wasn't horrible. Still, like gypsylakat said, test some on a scrap piece of fabric to see how it does (or on the hem of your chemise where no one will see anyway).
Also, if you burn easily - for both guys and girls- consider a parasol or a wide brimmed hat. I have a nice wide brimmed straw hat that helps a lot as well as several parasols. If you use a parasol, make sure you know how to use it. I'm always seeing ladies walking down the street with the parasol directly above their heads. That only works at noon. ;-) You need to angle the parasol throughout the day with the direction of the light.
Isabella has a good point- Reliance on chemical sunscreens can still lead to skin damage even with religious use. I have seen people end up with mild sunburns after 8 hours with SPF50. If your skin is burned; the damage is done.
There is no sunscreen out there, other than zinc (the opaque stuff) that will provide 100% protection from UV over the span of a day in the sun, and that's only if it's not sweated or accidentally wiped off. Even with the best brands-you are still going to get some UV.
Only a physical barrier like clothing, a hat or a parasol can do that. Even then, you still have to be careful of reflected light, like you get off water, snow, sand or any light colored surface you may be spending a lot of time walking over.
Unless you live in the dark, your skin will get some UV. The trick is to prevent too much at a time. Your skin can recover from most limited exposure, but chronic burns and tanning will make you into a leathery mess before you know it.
Nothing can fix that.
IMHO-If you are fair skinned you shouldn't be tanning at all.
Isabella, I don't know which faire you attend, but it may be more conservative than the faires that most of us attend. I understand that you are far more about being H.A., but, alas, most of us are there for the fun, if we aren't cast. Three comments hardly constitutes "many." The two other male respondents are both friends, and they are, like myself, simply wise guys poking fun.
I'm not a breast man, despite the endowment my bride enjoys. Comparing the women and the men who attend the faires that we generally frequent, the women are FAR more brazen about viewing the men lustfully, making suggestive comments, and there are far more pirate women and wenches than nobility.
The young lady was inquiring about how to achieve the look that is common for faires. My bride wears Moresco corsets. As someone else inferred, it is far cheaper to get a good one than a cheap one.
I was hoping we could get through this thread without slut-shaming from the ladies and creeping from the dudes, but apparently not. ::)
Quote from: Rowen MacD on September 17, 2014, 04:06:31 PM
Isabella has a good point- Reliance on chemical sunscreens can still lead to skin damage even with religious use. I have seen people end up with mild sunburns after 8 hours with SPF50.
I can attest to this- I always use SPF 50, and no matter how much I put on or how often, I'm a lobster after being in the sun :-\
Tink-You are not alone-I would not believe it if I hadn't seen it myself (though I am not one of you thank god).
There are people who will burn no matter what sunscreen they use or how slight the UV exposure; it's almost like they are allergic to sunlight.
I have a fair skinned friend (a natural red head) that is extremely sensitive to the sun; she never tans-just gets lobster red in as little as 10 minutes.
There is nothing that works; I swear the girl would burn under a flash light.
She took to wearing a light shawl over her shoulders and bosom when she is in the sun, and only takes it off inside. she will use a parasol in a pinch, but only the physical barriers work for her. Bummer.
Rowen, have you suggested a partlet to her? Partlets can be worn over the top of a bodice, rather than being tied under. A linen partlet - particularly a lightweight white one- might be helpful for her. It might be a bit cooler (particularly out of linen) and less likely to slip since it's tied at the sides and front, typically.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on September 18, 2014, 10:41:59 PM
Rowen, have you suggested a partlet to her? Partlets can be worn over the top of a bodice, rather than being tied under. A linen partlet - particularly a lightweight white one- might be helpful for her. It might be a bit cooler (particularly out of linen) and less likely to slip since it's tied at the sides and front, typically.
Isabell, do you have links to any pix of what that would look like? My daughter had radiation last year and have to stay covered in the front from chin to waist from now on. She's been wearing medieval wimple, hood, all that, but at Sherwood (even in Feb/March), it gets heavy and hot.
Quote from: PollyPoPo on September 19, 2014, 09:49:11 AM
Quote from: isabelladangelo on September 18, 2014, 10:41:59 PM
Rowen, have you suggested a partlet to her? Partlets can be worn over the top of a bodice, rather than being tied under. A linen partlet - particularly a lightweight white one- might be helpful for her. It might be a bit cooler (particularly out of linen) and less likely to slip since it's tied at the sides and front, typically.
Isabell, do you have links to any pix of what that would look like? My daughter had radiation last year and have to stay covered in the front from chin to waist from now on. She's been wearing medieval wimple, hood, all that, but at Sherwood (even in Feb/March), it gets heavy and hot.
Of course! There are SEVERAL different kinds. The most common colors are black (out of wool or velvet) and white (out of linen). However, Queen Mary I (Bloody Mary) is often shown wearing brocade or even cut velvet partlets that match the rest of her gown.
(http://maniacalmedievalist.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/beuckelaer-kitchen-interior.jpg?w=396)
(https://maniacalmedievalist.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/1-c-joachim_beuckelaer_-_market_scene-detail-partlet.jpg?w=300&h=262)
These two above are examples of Flemish partlets. In both cases, I've included images that show the partlet over the dress - however, there are just as many examples of the partlets being worn under the gown. Pretty much all Flemish (and other countries!) partlets have necks/collars but they aren't always closed.
(http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/17/25/61/172561db82af3c47983429445f48de19.jpg)
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-NkxNR4SWxGg/Tt5W21HWbRI/AAAAAAAADdg/2NiStwLgpag/s1600/italian-partlets.jpg)
The two above are examples of Italian partlets. The first image is from the middle of the 16th Century and the other is from the late 15th Century. Although Italian partlets could have collars, the ones I've included do not. Again, they could be worn under the gown (the middle of the 16th C one normally was) but since some people might want to take them off indoors, I'm showing only over partlets. The Italians tended to use sheer fabrics - if you were of the wealthier class. However, their are several examples of the middle and lower classes just using linen (or thin cotton as this is Italy).
The nice thing about partlets is they do protect your shoulders and neck from the sun - assuming you are using a lightweight linen. For winter, partlets tended to look more like this:
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-e6zI98_8yXc/UsSmq_1w7lI/AAAAAAAABXs/8ly80HwmD28/s1600/Pieter-Aertsen-Vegetable-Seller-1567.jpg)
If you do a search on flemish partlets or 16th century partlets, you'll see TONS of blog articles on making these. They are pretty simple and they are easily stuffed into a purse/basket when you don't need them.
Thanks for the pix of partlets worn on the outside. I had seen lots on the inside, but these give me an idea of what they look like on the outside.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on September 18, 2014, 10:41:59 PM
Rowen, have you suggested a partlet to her? Partlets can be worn over the top of a bodice, rather than being tied under. A linen partlet - particularly a lightweight white one- might be helpful for her. It might be a bit cooler (particularly out of linen) and less likely to slip since it's tied at the sides and front, typically.
Yes I have-In fact, she is looking in to making something like this for next summer, after I explained that 'partlet' does not necessarily=noble garb.
She likes to display some cleavage, but she has finally resigned herself to the fact that she cannot do so in the sun without turning an unbecoming shade of red.
The shawl she uses outdoors, even though it's light, is still too hot for her- and a parasol can be a pain if you don't have somewhere to carry it when you need your hands free, or aren't using it.
Her persona is a mix of non-HA wenchy/market girl: Plain, un-patterned skirts in primary colors, worn in layers so that the outer skirt(s) can be hitched up, a simple underbust bodice and chemise. She wears a straw hat to shade her face.
When she is out with her cart-she keeps her chest/neck covered (she wears her hair in a snood which does not always provide neck protection), and I have told her that a plain linen partlet, in white or a contrasting color to her bodice, would be small, portable and easily removable when indoors.
An added bonus is that they are a project suitable for beginning sewers; which really helps, since I don't know of any online vendors that sell them.