The rumor mill was flying on Sunday with news that one of the guys near the joust that sells the candied nuts was fired because he offended some woman when he asked her if she wanted to sample his nuts. Now maybe there is more to this story (as stories through the grapevine usually are short on all the details), but if this is true I'm not happy. Good innuendo laced fun is part of what makes faire enjoyable.
Next, are they going to stop the musicians from performing songs with mildly suggestive themes, disallow kilt inspections, impart bodice regulations, etc...? I'm a happily married man, but I enjoy flirting with the women and even get a kick out of being harassed by certain flamboyant male cast memebers for my colorful costumes. I have never been offended at the faire!
In this world of overwhelming political correctness, the faire is one place where it's still ok to be an adult and have a little adult fun. If this is the direction our faire is going, it's a sad, sad day!
Quote from: Lord Virgil on August 26, 2008, 03:39:39 PM
The rumor mill was flying on Sunday with news that one of the guys near the joust that sells the candied nuts was fired because he offended some woman when he asked her if she wanted to sample his nuts. Now maybe there is more to this story (as stories through the grapevine usually are short on all the details), but if this is true I'm not happy. Good innuendo laced fun is part of what makes faire enjoyable.
Next, are they going to stop the musicians from performing songs with mildly suggestive themes, disallow kilt inspections, impart bodice regulations, etc...? I'm a happily married man, but I enjoy flirting with the women and even get a kick out of being harassed by certain flamboyant male cast members for my colorful costumes. I have never been offended at the faire!
In this world of overwhelming political correctness, the faire is one place where it's still ok to be an adult and have a little adult fun. If this is the direction our faire is going, it's a sad, sad day!
I totally agree! Tis half the fun of faire.
Our Faire has a "Warning" sign telling folks that this is a natural setting and be mindful of roots and rocks...In other words...don't sue us if you're clumsy and trip and fall.... ::)
I always said if I owned a Faire my "Disclaimer" would consist of something akin to:
"If you are easily offended go the F*** home!!"
Now, granted, there is a difference between "bawdy" and "sleezy" and there descretion needs to come into play but Come on, folks...who HASN'T heard some reference to the "King's Nuts" while at Faire?? It's catering to these mamby pamby types that really waters down people's intelligence...people like this are the reason we have instructions on shampoo....
"OH...I was supposed to WET my hair first?? THEN rinse??"
Hmmm, I have not heard that, but he's been doing that bit for years and I was playing off him two Saturday's ago, agreeing he dids't have fine nuts indeed. I hope this is just that, a rumor. As Ample and Trite say, "if your kids get the jokes, it's not our fault."
Also they'd have to fire all the pickle vendors, most of the cast and many of the acts. He had candied nuts out, he asked her to sample his nuts. That is not at all offensive, unless you let it be. My kids would just think that he had nuts for sale and wondered if you wanted to try them.
This is me speaking as me. I have not heard this, know nothing about it and am not going ask about it cause I gots other stuffs on my mind this week. I hope someone disavows, or there is much more to this story.
boo... i thought he was quite funny.. but i did hear that he was no longer there that day.. did not know he might have been fired.. even the pickle guys (me and pickles dont agree though) are hilarious i think.. reminds me of the girl that flipped off sealclubber for his chocolate banana joke as she walked by eating it.. her friend actually turned to appologize.. i think if i owned a faire i would have a sign like capt. morgan though.. lol
They have always asked if you would like to sample their nuts. They lady should just stayed home. :P
I can see someone unfamilar with faire culture (and no sense of humor) getting offended. However, it seems a bit overkill to fire him (if its true). I mean, its not like he just came up with that on his own--that schtick has been around for awhile and I'm sure he was asked to do it when he was hired.
My understanding, from talking to people who were involved:
The line given was "Well, as long as your enjoyng that 12 inches of meat, why don't you try a sack of my nuts?" said to a gentleman patron holding a turkey drumstick.
The patron complained to faire management, who went to the sellers bosses and asked that he be fired. When his employers refused (the gentleman in question is wheelchair bound, and has been working with them for many years) Managment responded by banning him from the site.
That's the rumor as it reached my ears.
And yeah, as said above, I got flipped off for telling a girl it was good to see a woman enjoying a bannana. But, she was the lone mundane in a group of participatrons, i figure she must have been getting hassled all day.
I'm so sad to hear these rumors. I truly hope that neither versions were true. All this political correctness is offending to me >:(. I'm so tired of having to worry about making someone unhappy because of something I've said or done. Life is hard enough without having to watch my P's and Q's, dot my i's and cross my T's. People just need to grow up and not be so touchy. Faire is supposed to be fun. Having to worry about all this manure will certainly make things stiff and stuffy and un-fun.
I heard far worse from a mundanly dress mundane who told me to _________ insert bad word here_______ for complimenting her boots.
that just makes no sence to me at all.. i mean if you break it down.. its perfectly fine to say that to any one in that situation.. reguardless of age or gender.
"enjoyng that 12 inches of meat" - those turkey legs are a giant stick of meat, never measured them, but seem to be about 8 inches to 12 inches.
"why don't you try a sack of my nuts?" - dude sells nuts in a plastic bag/sack..
not cool at all if he was totally banned for that.. hopefuly it as maybe just for the day.. or something.
sealclubber, if that is a true account of what happened, I would appreciate someone giving me the fair management's contact person to complain to for his re-instatement. I will not sit idly by whilst someone is being kicked in the nuts (pun intended) for doing what he was most likely told to do in the first place! Political correctness has no place at Faire!
"If your kids get the jokes, it's not our fault" That is a great quote, Ample and Trite RULE!
I have spoken directly to "Show" who was working with the hawker in question and that is what happend. The hawker is banned from MiRF and ALL of the nut sellers as well as the Pickle people are no longer permitted to speak any words that might be taken in offense. What next, no Bocca, no Washing Wenches, no Rogues??????
There goes the faire!!!!!
Give me a friggin' break! I hate being served a slice of "white bread" Mundania at Faire. "Bawdy talk" that is witty and doesn't involve any 4 letter words and actually makes you think should be encouraged and management should not bow to the whiny weed puller complaints of a few that ruin it for the rest of us who are mature enough to get "grown up humor"....Obviously British humor would send them screaming into the night....
Quote from: Lady Gwyndolyn on August 27, 2008, 11:08:51 AM
I have spoken directly to "Show" who was working with the hawker in question and that is what happend. The hawker is banned from MiRF and ALL of the nut sellers as well as the Pickle people are no longer permitted to speak any words that might be taken in offense. What next, no Bocca, no Washing Wenches, no Rogues??????
There goes the faire!!!!!
This is terrible!! I love having the witty "Bawdy" talk from the nuts/pickle guys! Where does it stop from this point?! The acts, the cast (no more cleveage it is offensive)?! Give me a break. Whoever complained should have been told to lighten up!!
Now this is very interesting. I know that our Faire Participants are always being told that it is a family show, but we hear the same thing from the nut roll & pickle sellers. Various acts are very suggestive, not to mention Villification Tennis.
However, on the topic of silly things, several runs ago the bellydancers were not allowed to show their stomachs unless on stage. Now several of them perform on street...isn't that their stage? That rule was quickly forgotten.
Sean
MNRF
Ain't it always the way!!?? The douche nozzle probably found himself the butt of a few jokes from his friends after the nut guy made his comment. So, to save his testosterony manliness, he lodged a complaint.
I'd like the contact info, as well...maybe if enough of US complain, "they'll" lay off before MiRF becomes Ren-sney World
~It's a world of bodices, a world of pickles
it's a world of joust and a world of garb~
Quote from: maelstrom0370 on August 27, 2008, 01:14:41 PM
I'd like the contact info, as well...maybe if enough of US complain, "they'll" lay off before MiRF becomes Ren-sney World
~It's a world of bodices, a world of pickles
it's a world of joust and a world of garb~
Now that is the nickname of the day right there, awesomely put Maelstrom!!!
Quote from: Lord Virgil on August 27, 2008, 01:45:32 PM
Quote from: maelstrom0370 on August 27, 2008, 01:14:41 PM
I'd like the contact info, as well...maybe if enough of US complain, "they'll" lay off before MiRF becomes Ren-sney World
~It's a world of bodices, a world of pickles
it's a world of joust and a world of garb~
Now that is the nickname of the day right there, awesomely put Maelstrom!!!
Awww gosh! Thanks! ::)
Faires always been two levels. One level for the kids, and a second level that the adults laugh at. To remove that second level because one person complained... well, there goes our freedom of speech.
BOOOOO!!! I love the innuendos at Faire even though they turn my face scarlet red all the time. But it's part of the fun. I can't imagine faire without them. The fact that this man got fired/suspended for such is lame. And I'm a little outraged by it. The managers at Ren Faire must know that this goes on every five seconds in Faire from the nut sellers to the Court. Geeze, people that are easily offended need to stay home.
It's nice to see that female fairegoers also like the innuendo/adult humor. I agree that is all a part of the fun and we need to address this issue with faire management. Our Faire's management are very nice and reasonable people, and hopefully it was only a one day ban to appease the over sensitive butt-monkey that's trying to ruin it for all of us. If not, we need to push them to reinstate him, as the voices of the many should far outweigh the voice of one! This is something that we cannot allow to become the norm.
I sincerely hope that management comes to their senses and realize that the idiot who lodged the complaint isn't likely to return to MIRF while the new rules would serve only to piss off those of us who spend as much time (AND MONEY) at faire as we can.
OK, I'm going to probably get blasted here, but I am going to step in as a voice of calm.
The initial post here stated it correctly... "The rumor mill". And when a rumor mill starts grinding, all kinds of stuff comes out, some of it true, some of it false, and some of it half of either.
Festival management is indeed aware that innuendo and play occurs, and they are fine with that except when it crosses the line. As performers, we are told to be aware of our audience. It is not our purpose to deliberately embarass someone. If a patron is looking to be harrassed, embarassed, or humiliated, they can hire Christophe the Insultor or go by the Veggie Vengeance booth. But to have it done to you, loudly, in the middle of the lanes without provocation is not the way to win over newcomers to faire.
If you want to protest, fine, it is indeed your right to do so. But please listen and gather ALL the facts before rushing to judgement in this (or any) churning of the rumor mill.
There will be no blasting, as all discussions have two sides. We all appreciate your input, and you raise a good point. I started this thread to get to the details, hoping members would have the "whole story".
From what I know so far, I understand that management was trying to diffuse a situation. However, I still think they overreacted and banned the seller to try to save a little face in a knee-jerk reaction .
None of the postings I have read thus far have all of or correct details. The story has even changed throughout the postings: it was a woman, it was a man; this was said, no, this was said. Thus the danger of rumor mills.
The GM of MiRF is a fair and thoughtful person, not prone to over- or knee-jerk reactions.
Quote from: Madge Estes on August 28, 2008, 08:54:57 AM
OK, I'm going to probably get blasted here, but I am going to step in as a voice of calm.
The initial post here stated it correctly... "The rumor mill". And when a rumor mill starts grinding, all kinds of stuff comes out, some of it true, some of it false, and some of it half of either.
Festival management is indeed aware that innuendo and play occurs, and they are fine with that except when it crosses the line. As performers, we are told to be aware of our audience. It is not our purpose to deliberately embarrass someone. If a patron is looking to be harassed, embarrassed, or humiliated, they can hire Christophe the Insultor or go by the Veggie Vengeance booth. But to have it done to you, loudly, in the middle of the lanes without provocation is not the way to win over newcomers to faire.
If you want to protest, fine, it is indeed your right to do so. But please listen and gather ALL the facts before rushing to judgement in this (or any) churning of the rumor mill.
We had an issue at Bristol where an overzealous hawker frequently crossed the line between salemanship and humiliating the fairgoers. This was resolved backstage to everyone's satisfaction.
Say what you will, no paytron should leave the Faire feeling like they had been singled out and publicly embarrassed. We may sneer at their prudishness, but if they refuse to return for fear of being humiliated it's the Faire that looses in the end.
Well said, Whistler Fred. You put it exactly as I tried so poorly to do.
Oh sure! Someone's always gotta be the "voice of reason"!
And here I just sharpened my pitchfork and lit my torch!
:D :P ::)
There is definately a line that should not be crossed. A paytron should not feel like they are being attacked, singled out..etc. We had an issue where a paytron actually took it too far at Veggie Justice last year and had to be escorted out.
Telling someone that you are going to follow them home and kill them...even in jest, is not acceptable.
Madge
What you say is most definitly true. If the incident can be proven to be correct as stated then I think there is a serious problem. If however the incident is proven to be totally different than I still think we have a problem but of a different sort. We have met the problem and it is us(para-phrased).
That said I would like to tell of an incident that could have been along these same lines:
Several years ago at Tennessee, I helped put on a feast on Sundays that involved having an Emu BBQ'd. Now if anyone has ever seen an Emu, all I can say is what a drumstick. Naturally I got a hold of one of those and after the feast there was still plenty of meat left on that sucker, so rather than throw it out I carried it around with me though my travels around the shire and every so often, I would proffer the following, "wouldst care to share the Kings meat" Of course I would say this holding out this enormous drumstick that would most likely have been equal to 4 or 5 of the biggest turkey legs you ever saw. No one to my knowledge ever complained and there were more than a few snickers to be heard. The double entendre was obviously understood and everyone seemed to have fun with it. I would hope that people that are offended by this sort of thing would stay home or go home. We had those in Tenn. as well and the management would quickly offer these people their money back and exit them out of the gate.
Dear...god. I would love to have a emu drumstick! hell with the meat, I just want the bone, what a prop that would be!
I can't argue that. I don't know if any more are around being slaughtered for meat, but you can try. I will contact the guy I got mine from and see if he has any. If he does I'll let you know and figure out someway to get one to you.
Gee, thanks man!
Well, there's always a weed in the garden, so to speak. There is always someone who likes to complain about something. I don't know if it's the feeling of power or authority they experience when getting someone else into trouble - or they just like having their ego's stroked.
I have seen it a few times where a parent takes a very small child, 8 or 10 years old, to a bawdy show and the performers warn the parent it might not be appropriate and the parents just smile and say "It's ok, I'll cover his ears" and the jokingly put their hands over the kids ears at certain points in the song.
Ok great but, seriously. These would be the first ones to complain if the kid picked something up.
The Faire is not the place to be if you don't have a sense of humor. I have gone with a friend who had no sense of humor and was offended at everything, it was sad.
I have already seen them cancel something at my own home faire because of image problems with the public. So, when I hear something like this it makes me cringe.
Quote from: sealclubber on August 28, 2008, 11:27:40 AM
Dear...god. I would love to have a emu drumstick! hell with the meat, I just want the bone, what a prop that would be!
lmao.. i can just imagine the things said if you get ahold of one of those.
Quote from: BLAKDUKE on August 28, 2008, 11:13:51 AM
Madge
What you say is most definitly true. If the incident can be proven to be correct as stated then I think there is a serious problem. If however the incident is proven to be totally different than I still think we have a problem but of a different sort. We have met the problem and it is us(para-phrased).
That said I would like to tell of an incident that could have been along these same lines:
Several years ago at Tennessee, I helped put on a feast on Sundays that involved having an Emu BBQ'd. Now if anyone has ever seen an Emu, all I can say is what a drumstick. Naturally I got a hold of one of those and after the feast there was still plenty of meat left on that sucker, so rather than throw it out I carried it around with me though my travels around the shire and every so often, I would proffer the following, "wouldst care to share the Kings meat" Of course I would say this holding out this enormous drumstick that would most likely have been equal to 4 or 5 of the biggest turkey legs you ever saw. No one to my knowledge ever complained and there were more than a few snickers to be heard. The double entendre was obviously understood and everyone seemed to have fun with it. I would hope that people that are offended by this sort of thing would stay home or go home. We had those in Tenn. as well and the management would quickly offer these people their money back and exit them out of the gate.
Emu?? What does that taste like ? chicken?
Twould be goodly thus of us to remember that the voice of reason here be our queen and it is my full and true belief that she woulds't remove heads of those who embelish rumors. Tis why she doth scare the Skittles outta me.
Not that there is any embelishment here, just speculation, etc.
As for Emu, of course it tastes like chicken. Everything tastes like chicken.
Actually not. It is a red meat not white. The flavor depends a lot on the spices put on by the cook.
However before we continue, might I suggest if anyone want to discuss EMU and such any further we start another thread and not hi-jack this one. If this is agreeable mayhap the moderator could move the EMU posts to a new thread. I'm not sure how to do all that, just a suggestion.
Quote from: nliedel on August 29, 2008, 07:11:49 AM
Twould be goodly thus of us to remember that the voice of reason here be our queen and it is my full and true belief that she woulds't remove heads of those who embelish rumors. Tis why she doth scare the Skittles outta me.
Not that there is any embelishment here, just speculation, etc.
As for Emu, of course it tastes like chicken. Everything tastes like chicken.
I agree that the voice of reason should be heeded, else your head end up in the gallows. I should have noted that in my reply to her majesty's comment, I sincerly apologize for not showing her the proper respect.
I didn't start this thread to beat up on management, as our faire's management does a stupendous job of balancing all the concerns of running our beloved Hollygrove. It was more in hopes of getting the whole true story so a more informed opinion could be formed. If anyone has the whole story and would like to share (I pormise you 100% anonimity), you can contact me in person at faire, via private message here or via my email address richtazz@comcast.net.
I hope the entire matter is resolved and the removed party is allowed to return (as I have always been entertained by his antics), although with a better understanding of his bounds.
Huzzah to our Queen with her level head!!!!
and Huzzah that she can't really take them off :)
So Emu tastes like emu. Who woulda guessed?
I hate rumor mills. It is always a pain in the rear searching through all of the BS to find the truth.
I am a very quiet person I enjoy keeping to myself. I hate having attention drawn to myself, I have been going for years but I doubt any of you there would even know who I am, but I have never been offended at the faire. I have even embarrassed myself a few times...
For instance when the gentleman made the comment to my girlfriend "Lass would you like to wake up with a nut in your mouth..." or something to that affect.... my witty response was... "Been there done that.." Referring of course to my girl friend yet it did not come out as intended as I forgot She's in there... embarrassed yes... slinking away yes... willing to kill everyone's fun over it no.
I always try to be a person of principle and honor... I will just have to see if the nut and pickle men I love so much... (don't think that sounded much better than above) are not there or are not hawking their wares as per usual it will probably be my last visit too the faire.
I have been coming since I was 18 so for the last 9 years so that will be a very sad event for me. However I believe that the nut and pickle men are just brandishing the type of harmless fun that should be allowed at the faire and if management wants to put an end to that then I will go to the other faires and SCA events around and enjoy the playful and good natured raunchy humor that I enjoy at those events.
As far as offending people, and making people feel like they are being attacked. I have never had any tolerance for those care bear loving, politically correct, holier than thou, unhonorably whelps.
P.S. I love carebears.
I believe our Queen's advice should be heeded in many situations...one does hear so much....and most of it is lacking somewhat in truth.
I too feel that there is more (or less) to this story. It would be a shame if one lone comment was the root of all of this.
My father in law had something like that happen to him. He's not one of those out going types. So he just refuses to go to fest. But it sure hadn't stopped the rest of the family. We just leave him home. Mayhap this might be the best choice for the patron that was offended though, rather than arbitrary justice handed out. When we know darn well, we've either heard it, or been part of something just like this.
Several years ago I had a couple come to my karaoke show. I introduced myself before the show as I noticed they were new to the bar. Found out they went to, and worked when they could out at fest. At the end of the night they commented to me that I was a bit suggestive in my show. I was taken back a little when I told them I only do no more than what is said out at fest. They responded they had never heard anything remotely similar. Made me wonder if they really listened to anything out there. The nut's and bolts of it, is your going to upset someone. It's only a matter of time. We don't change the show to please a few people. Ask any advertising person and they'll tell you sex sells in many forms.
Whether it was a man or woman who was offended is really irrelevant to me. What matters is the end result. To me it sounds a bit over reactionary. That's just my opinion though.
Being the advocate of the devil here (or perhaps that doesn't quite fit in -this- instance) I have had quite a few people tell me that they no longer attend MiRF because they feel it is no longer family friendly.
That is, or course, a management decision on what the target market of a show is, and I am not saying it is good or bad, just stating what quite a few people have told me. My own opinion is irrelevant.
However, as I told one act at the faire where my opinion is very relevant when they told me they make better hat when their show is more bawdy, "You make more money doing porno than Shakespeare as well, but we each must decide how we wish to entertain..."
The bottom line is people vote with their dollars. Remember "rennies" make up a small percentage of the total revenue of a successful faire. Just like "High Rollers" make up a small percentage of the take of a casino. It's the 100,000 people spending $50 each that pay the majority of the bills, not the 1000 spending $500 each.
LDW
Mirf not family friendly? Really?
See, I've seen it going the other way. Becoming more tame, kid friendly. Yeah, there are a couple bawdy shows, but those are clearly marked, and encourage kids to stay away.
Huh.
Much of what was mentioned to me about not being family friendly had little to do with the shows, but more to do with the acceptance of certain behaviors and costuming by patrons. The most interesting direct quote regarded "rouged nipples" on women, something I, personally, have never seen, but it was a BIG deal with this person. They mentioned it numerous times.
Of course there was the "Musical Men" episode a few years back that hardly screamed "Bring the kiddies!".
Others have cited the number of intoxicated people. Now understand to the uninitiated, anyone in a costume works there, so they assume that it is cast getting hammered at the Guinness.
As for shows warning people that they are not kid friendly, much can still be heard in the lanes. I walked past a show at Bristol that I was a good 20 feet from the pub enterance and heard a statement made onstage that I would flinch at in a nightclub in Las Vegas at midnight. Putting an adult book store that doesn't allow minors next to a "Chuckie Cheese's" may still be a questionable idea in many people's minds.
LDW
Rouged nipples? Really? Wow.
Why do I always miss out on the good stuff?
And I get you on the drinkers. I guess i just don't understand the point of coming to a place, and getting so drunk you're not going to remember it the next day. *shrugs* but drinking to excess has never been my thing.
I'd say somethign about putting up signs to let patrons know not everyone is on cast, but they wouldn't read them anyways. People love ignoring signs.
And, er, which episode of musical men was this?
I am a lover of the female form, and I have never seen "rouged nipples". I'm not saying there haven't ever been any, but I think some people see what they want to see, whether it's the truth or not.
Any place that sells alcohol will have it's share of idiots. I would be willing to bet that most of the drunks go outside the gate and slam a few of their own. Admiral Morgan and runs a tight ship, and we at the Guiness Pub do a pretty good job of self-policing. I have absolutely no problem with reporting a drunk to security (I'm not going to confront a drunk myself, and neither should anyone else). I will not have some idiot ruin my or someone else's day because they don't know when to quit.
Again, a Renaissance faire is no place for the easily offended. It's impossible to please everyone so stop trying, keep the status quo and let's have fun!!!
Evry mornin when I go into faire, I grab a small bags of almonds from the vendor in front of the Sparrow Inn/Pub, (formerly known as Dragon's Breath Inn). And a coffee or ale. And he has his banter and there are other patrons and workers around, and I'm laughin he's laughin and evryone around is, because the innuendos are what make faire. What better and intelligent way to be dirty and funny than by camoflauging it in other words. Of course we've all been offended or embarrassed by what was said or what we were eating at the time it was said, but that's what makes us laugh, it's the knowledge that yes, we are eating foods or doing something that can always be translated by word into some sexual act, but we know that these people are not doing it out of malice, but just to have fun and hope you do to. Capt. Morgan is right. a sign reading: If you're easily offended go the F*&$ home! Should be posted above the faire gate.
Quote from: Poldugarian Warrior on September 07, 2008, 10:05:44 AM
a sign reading: If you're easily offended go the F*&$ home! Should be posted above the faire gate.
Right. That would do it.
Let's put up another one that says "Don't be an idiot"
::sigh::
LDW
I agree wholeheartedly that faire is the place to make bawdy jokes and have a good time. To those who feel faire is not the place for ribald comedy and innuendo or that faire should be "kid" friendly (and I'm not saying it can't be or isn't), I ask: Have they never read Chaucer's Canterbury Tales? *grins cheekily* There is nothing but innuendo in the Tales.
Faire is a place for people to lose their ... what's the word? Their inhibitions about life, about society! Our world is strange; we've become so close-minded about so many things (natural things involving anatomy, for instance) but are so open about other things. Bah! 'Tis selective. =/ Nevertheless, faire is supposed to be a place where people can be natural. To fire somebody (and, yes, I realize we might not have the full tale here) over an accepted faire behavior is ... ridiculous.
People who come to faire should expect the jokes and the jibes. Like others on here have said, that's what makes faire fun.
~Julia
P.S. Okay, so The Canterbury Tales is not exactly Renaissance-period correct, but the idea of the Tales is definitely present in the faires of today. ^_^
Quote from: L Dale Walter on September 09, 2008, 11:15:59 AM
Quote from: Poldugarian Warrior on September 07, 2008, 10:05:44 AM
a sign reading: If you're easily offended go the F*&$ home! Should be posted above the faire gate.
Right. That would do it.
Let's put up another one that says "Don't be an idiot"
::sigh::
LDW
Wow! :o That's....harsh.
Signs don't work, people don't read them.
Faire is a place to be friendly and open, with little suspicion. Where a guy can walk up to a woman and say "Hey, you look tense, need a massage?" And not be slapped with a harassment lawsuit. It's where if you're wearing a silly outfit, people are more likely to trust you then less.
As a tangent, as this comment has become, here's something to try: If you haven't been to Faire without garb in a while, try it sometime. The experience is completely different. People look at you funny when you try to help them, the lanes are more crowded, patrons are less likely to chat with you... This is how your typical patron sees the faire. They haven't lucked into the secret of it the way we have.
If I went without garb, I'd be harassed to death by all my friends, but I see your point. I actually go out of my way to make sure those without garb feel welcome and have fun. That's the whole point to garb in the first place. It allows you to leave yourself and all your inhibitions at home, and become a character with flair and panache. I'm not a shy person anyway, but at Faire, I can blame my misbehavings on my character, as Rich would never do such a thing, ::).
QuoteLet's put up another one that says "Don't be an idiot"
QuoteSigns don't work, people don't read them.
That was my point. We could put up signs saying ANYTHING and no one would read them, much less heed them. I wasn't calling anyone an idiot.
QuoteIf you haven't been to Faire without garb in a while, try it sometime.
I -never- wear garb (for me it is a costume, as I get paid to wear them) to a show that I am not getting paid to do so at. Every day I put wear on a costume is one less day I can sell it, so I protect my stuff.
You are very right. The "Playtron" experience is far different from the "Patron" experience. Imagine going to someone else's class reunion, where everyone knows each other, and you know no one. I have even heard patrons say such things when "Bring on the Starlight" was (is?) sung.
Remember, playtrons are only 5% of your gate numbers. They may all "get it" and not be offended. If "Mr. and Ms. America and their 2.3 children" are offended, don't come back, and tell others, there is a problem.
LDW
Talking to patrons who are garbed and not is a very different experience. Many of them are dying to try it, but are scared. If someone mentions to me how much they love it, I ask about why they won't try garbing next year? Of course I always mention showing ankles. Then I show mine. I'm such a hootchie.
Quote from: L Dale Walter on September 10, 2008, 09:59:41 AM
QuoteLet's put up another one that says "Don't be an idiot"
QuoteSigns don't work, people don't read them.
That was my point. We could put up signs saying ANYTHING and no one would read them, much less heed them. I wasn't calling anyone an idiot.
QuoteIf you haven't been to Faire without garb in a while, try it sometime.
I -never- wear garb (for me it is a costume, as I get paid to wear them) to a show that I am not getting paid to do so at. Every day I put wear on a costume is one less day I can sell it, so I protect my stuff.
You are very right. The "Playtron" experience is far different from the "Patron" experience. Imagine going to someone else's class reunion, where everyone knows each other, and you know no one. I have even heard patrons say such things when "Bring on the Starlight" was (is?) sung.
Remember, playtrons are only 5% of your gate numbers. They may all "get it" and not be offended. If "Mr. and Ms. America and their 2.3 children" are offended, don't come back, and tell others, there is a problem.
LDW
Honestly, I've not run across one offended patron yet. Okay, I'm dense and could have offended someone without knowing it, but the song that's most requested of Ian and I is rather bawdy and the parents seem to have no issue with the kids hearing it. I think those who are offended are very, very minor in number. I watched one woman walk around in amazement this past weekend about how much she loved it and how she was kicking herself for never going before. She's gonna be a playtron next year, you watch. She even asked about being on cast. I pointed her towards the right website. I mimed it, so I would not break character. It was a tad odd, but she got it.
I remember Kathy saying a few years ago, that she got several calls a week from people who were offended by stuff. Some she takes with a grain of salt (like the lady who called and said the faire was promoting devil worship by allowing the vendor to seel the little colored horns), some she actually has to address.
For every partons who laughs when offered the kings nuts, there will be someone who is offended by it.
Nuts grow on trees. Yes, it's slang for other things, but your mind has to go there for it to be dirty. My kids thinks they are nuts. The kind that grow on trees. So, I say the dirt is in the eye of the beholder. Not that we should not be aware of our audience and be careful. Just that it's not just the fault of the seller. Does that make sense? I think there is a large part of the population that elects to be offended by things, not just at the faire, because they can be. They enjoy outrage. I'm not way to wave your bazongas in anyone's face. I'm saying that some people are not happy unless someone else is not happy.
Quote from: nliedel on September 11, 2008, 07:21:26 AM
Nuts grow on trees. Yes, it's slang for other things, but your mind has to go there for it to be dirty. My kids thinks they are nuts. The kind that grow on trees. So, I say the dirt is in the eye of the beholder. Not that we should not be aware of our audience and be careful. Just that it's not just the fault of the seller. Does that make sense? I think there is a large part of the population that elects to be offended by things, not just at the faire, because they can be. They enjoy outrage. I'm not way to wave your bazongas in anyone's face. I'm saying that some people are not happy unless someone else is not happy.
Perfectly put. And to try and appease these unhappy sourpusses will ruin everyone elses fun!!
Quote from: Margaret on September 11, 2008, 02:20:28 AM
Some she takes with a grain of salt (like the lady who called and said the faire was promoting devil worship by allowing the vendor to seel the little colored horns), some she actually has to address.
'tis true. After Charlevoix Ren faire we found an amazing blog post that told about how nice everything was, but then suddenly turned and went on an on about how many "dark" things there were, from fortune tellers, magic wands, fairies, and unicorns, to the fact that that we had a troll. All very non-christian, and she sited Bible verse to condemn all of these things. Her final statement was along the lines of "I wonder how many people are being corrupted and don't even know it..."
I guess it is kind of like when the Senate subcommittee asked Frank Zappa if he thought music caused violence during the 80's PMRC hearings. His response was "I wrote a song about dental floss, did people's teeth get cleaner?"
I did have one fundraising group pull out of doing MRF because they said there were "too many non-Christian things". Another woman complained to me once that there were "too many Democrats" at MRF.
::sigh::
It is a fine middle road we walk as the audience spans a HUGE age demographic as well as social and economic classes. Trying to find appeal to all is pretty tough. Having written 8 different shows for Ren Fest audiences over the last 25 years I think about that while I am writing constantly. In our "Legend of King Arthur" show I knew I would get complaints about Queen Guinevere saying to Morganna, as she moves to kill Arthur, "Why don't you try me, you belch." but it struck a chord with the audience, in that Guinevere has had enough, and will take no more. Plus the overwhelming positive audience response to that line made me make the decision to keep it as a defining point in the character's development.
But people did complain. Not a lot, but the ones that do are vocal. Plus everyone fires everything through their own perspective. ESPECIALLY if they have children, for then the world must be sanitized for their little darlings. Not everyone mind you, but a good number who want a Disney/Nerf world for their kids.
And so it goes...
L. Dale Walter
Again, well spoken Dale! This kind of conversation is what I was looking for when I started this thread. I was not in any way trying to beat up on management of our faire, as I have stated before they do a great job (keep it up!) I wanted a greater perspective on the fact that no matter what you do, you'll piss someone off.
I have taken my boys to MiRF since they were 7 and 8 (they are 14 and 15 now). Even at their younger ages, they got some of the adult humor. They are both well adjusted kids that I've never attempted to shelter from life, and I answer them honestly (within reason of course). Most people who try to shelter their kids from everything are the ones that have daughters that are knocked up by the time they're 15 because they had no clue about such things and got coerced into it by someone.
I suspect that most of the really conservative-in-taste types already view RenFaires as unhinged receptacles of evil and licentiousness, and would be inclined to stay away on general principles. I have some friends who don't feel that strongly about it, but they uncomfortable with devil's horns and fortune tellers. They don't condemn me for being a part of the faire, but they also aren't likely to show up at the front gates. Either way, it's their dime and their choice.
As a father I don't want my younger kids overexposed to vulgarity (in all senses of the word), but I wouldn't be bothered by, say, Queen Guinevere's challenge to Morganna, given the dramatic context. And since all of my kids have been going to Faires for most of their lives, they've probably heard it all already anyway!
Still, there's a time and place for everything, and that includes knowing when not to hit someone with unwelcome innuendo. No faire can afford to drive their patrons away in these tight economic times. I think a middle ground can be found between Disney-esque blandness (in all fairness, I don't think everything that comes out of Disney is bland) and non-stop naughtiness. Finding that middle ground can be the challenge.
Quote from: Whistler Fred on September 11, 2008, 09:52:27 AM
I think a middle ground can be found between Disney-esque blandness (in all fairness, I don't think everything that comes out of Disney is bland) and non-stop naughtiness.
It's funny, but when people tell me that things should be more "Disney" I always ask "You mean like in Lion King where Scar, King Mufasa's brother, assassinates him, and tries to kill Simba too? Or in Hunchback where Claude Frollo sings how he will -have- Esmeralda, or she will be burnt alive? How about skinning 101 puppies to make a coat for an crazy woman? Or drownding kittens so an inheritance won't go to them?"
Disney can get pretty dark. People forget that when they say they want "Disney".
Don't get me started on "Ol' Yeller"
LDW
Quote from: L Dale Walter on September 11, 2008, 05:22:24 PM
It's funny, but when people tell me that things should be more "Disney" I always ask "You mean like in Lion King where Scar, King Mufasa's brother, assassinates him, and tries to kill Simba too? Or in Hunchback where Claude Frollo sings how he will -have- Esmeralda, or she will be burnt alive? How about skinning 101 puppies to make a coat for an crazy woman? Or drownding kittens so an inheritance won't go to them?"
Disney can get pretty dark. People forget that when they say they want "Disney".
Don't get me started on "Ol' Yeller"
LDW
Game, set aaaand match!
Quote from: L Dale Walter on September 11, 2008, 05:22:24 PM
Quote from: Whistler Fred on September 11, 2008, 09:52:27 AM
I think a middle ground can be found between Disney-esque blandness (in all fairness, I don't think everything that comes out of Disney is bland) and non-stop naughtiness.
It's funny, but when people tell me that things should be more "Disney" I always ask "You mean like in Lion King where Scar, King Mufasa's brother, assassinates him, and tries to kill Simba too? Or in Hunchback where Claude Frollo sings how he will -have- Esmeralda, or she will be burnt alive? How about skinning 101 puppies to make a coat for an crazy woman? Or drownding kittens so an inheritance won't go to them?"
Disney can get pretty dark. People forget that when they say they want "Disney".
Don't get me started on "Ol' Yeller"
LDW
like maelstrom0370 said,.. you win.. and are very correct.
"Song of the South."
Disney hates moms. Think about it.
Cinderella: dead mom.
Bambi: dead mom.
Finding Nemo: DM
Pinocchio: no mom
Snow White: DM
Little Mermaid: mom not even mentioned
I could go on a long time.
People get offended every day by something. Middle ground is good, but sometimes I think we are PCing ourselves into the middle of not being able to speak at all.
Living deep in the bible belt I am constantly running into this kind of thing. I am ammused by two things in this regard. One is that for everyone offended by horns it turns out that they went to a high school that had a football team whose logo was a red/green/blue/black/grey/ devil of some sort. they did not seem to be persuaded to become devil worshippers did they? Secondly when some of these bible thumpers start spouting off I remind them of a quote made by an early Texas governor
"If english was good enough for Jesus it is good enough for the children of the state of Texas". That last one always brings a smile to my face. How blatantly stupid some people can become when they center their lives with blinders.
Quote from: nliedel on September 12, 2008, 06:35:27 AM
People get offended every day by something. Middle ground is good, but sometimes I think we are PCing ourselves into the middle of not being able to speak at all.
One of my oft used quotes (and my own I might add) is "If you try to be everything to everyone you end up being nothing to anyone..."
Not everyone digs everything. I am a HUGE Kiss fan, but don't like the Beatles. So out of the #1 and #2 biggest selling acts of all time I like one, not the other. Many others may feel differently, but that is why there is Kiss -AND- The Beatles, not Kiss -OR- The Beatles.
However, if one paid to see The Beatles, and Kiss took the stage, they may be a bit upset. If a patron took their 4 year old to see fairy's and princesses, and heard a guy shouting "Put my nuts in your mouth..." they might be a bit upset as well.
Marketing and target market must be defined.
L. Dale "yes I have an MBA" Walter
Quote from: L Dale Walter on September 12, 2008, 11:01:02 AM
One of my oft used quotes (and my own I might add) is "If you try to be everything to everyone you end up being nothing to anyone..."
Not everyone digs everything. I am a HUGE Kiss fan, but don't like the Beatles. So out of the #1 and #2 biggest selling acts of all time I like one, not the other. Many others may feel differently, but that is why there is Kiss -AND- The Beatles, not Kiss -OR- The Beatles.
However, if one paid to see The Beatles, and Kiss took the stage, they may be a bit upset. If a patron took their 4 year old to see fairy's and princesses, and heard a guy shouting "Put my nuts in your mouth..." they might be a bit upset as well.
Marketing and target market must be defined.
L. Dale "yes I have an MBA" Walter
Love KISS, hate the Beatles. Totally with you.
I like bawdy. Maybe not on school Friday, but bawdy = good. I am very careful about who I target. I've lost a ton of weight (just bought some size ten jeans for the first time since I was ten) and my boobies are GONE!! I look like a boy in my dresses. I'm now accusing of bawdily dressed women of stealing from me. They ask what? I look down. They laugh. I would never do that to someone in a turtleneck. I know, that sounds like some real groundbreaking advanced theater huh? Snort. It's my first year. Don't expect perfection.
A lot of what we do is who we're talking to, for the one on one types. What has amazed me is how easy it is to pick out those who will play and those who will not. You cannot go by garbed and mundane. Some garbed people don't want to play at all. It's been an education, that's for sure.
I think nliedel hit the nail on the head- some people are just looking for something to be offended by. If they couldn't find something politically incorrect to whine about, they'd likely gripe that it was too bland and "plain vanilla". My response to them: "Really? There is war and famine and injustice in the world, and you're upset by boobs and double entendres?"