I didn't see a thread on this, but after I made my previous post, about my step father wanting to start making garb for himself...I became curious. I'm white, with a russian/polish/scottish/everything but Irish background, and my stepfather is Mexican and native American (not sure of the tribe though). He has a very dark complexion.
At the faire(s) that you attend, how is the race ratio?
I live in south Florida, and the population is extremely mixed, especially the area I live in. Yet at faire, I would say it's predominantly Caucasian audience/attendees/performers from what I've seen. I hate to sound "stupid", but why do you think that is?? Or is it different at the faires you all attend? I just figured if my local area is such a mixed population, how come the group that attends faire isn't more mixed?
AHOOOOHOOOHOOOO! This is a topic that I could go on for HOURS about!
I'm mixed with black and white (half-rican american if you will, I'll even accept "incog-negro"). I think I know a TOTAL of 5 black people that go to faire. There's a couple here and there, sprinkled about. We get a decent mix of people that are patrons, but as far as Playtrons and Rennies go, it's mostly white. I have MAAAANY theories on this, and have been known to go on for ages and ages discussing the reasons why my fellow black people don't really get INTO faire.
As someone on the inside of the "ethnic curve", usually, it's not culturally acceptable to do these sorts of things. Acceptable past times, stereotypically of course, DO NOT include exploring the Middle Ages/Renaissance in a costume. If you'd like me to go more into it, I most certainly will. I've found that the black people that I know from faire PERSONALLY are not the stereotype. Most enjoy a different music, a different peer group, and a different way of life that is COMPLETELY different than what I've seen from the "other half". I'm trying hard to be PC about this, but I have a feeling that it may not stay that way. Just know that I believe that there's nothing against pointing out differences in who we are and what we do as a people. And a stereotype is only that if it's applied to the whole, without question.
Where is Lady Seasan??? She should chime in on this one!
The faires I've attended are mostly caucasian as well. To the reason behind this I have no idea.
Just makes Sholo the Nubian stand out all the more to me.
I wouldn't mind seeing a little more diversity personally ;)
Yeah...I'd guess most of us who do this for fun don't want to look too deeply into what the relationships really were between Europeans and Africans, Mexicans, Indians...etc. etc. back then....and I'd guess it would be hard to find a character that fits in and that is also historically accurate, and that isn't abused. Huzzah for what faire has become, a kinder gentler view of history where everybody get's along and I love it when someone brings the unexpected in as a character.
If I were African American, I'd go as a Moor and carry a terrifying scimitar. That would be awesome.
I will say personally, that I have a number of friends who aren't "white" that like the faire, dress up not necessarily historically accurate, but for fun, and I just find it odd locally since we have such a big crowd of "alternative/goth/punk/emo/etc" people, who aren't white.
And I know in some areas its taught that it's not "ok" to do any sort of past time that may involved costuming, aka: I've been to conventions before, and have been able to count like 4 non-white people in the whole event.
I will say this also, even though I'm white, I wasn't really raised by people who encouraged me dressing up or looking "foolish" in public spaces, as a matter of fact my mum STILL hates how I dress in public, but I still got myself interested in faire, even though I surely didn't think it was something I'd ever be able to do when I was younger, and I have basically no friends offline who participate either to influence me.
And I surely know if we are going for historically accurate at faire, other races attending would have...well...maybe not the most fun roles, but since a lot of faires allow anything as long as it's fun and not naked, I find it odd people don't get more involved...
Maybe a research study is in order!
Great topic.
Personally I am half Argentinian and half Italian- but I look totally "white".
Finnian, I have made that same observation of our faire before.
I really couldn't tell you why the discrepancy.
Anna, I do see that point, however I think people also forget that there was a lot of trade between Europe and the Middle East back then so its totally historically accurate that there were respected wealthy merchants of other ethnicity.
Quote(half-rican american if you will, I'll even accept "incog-negro")
- blue that is awesome hehehe.
I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that even if you go to faire historically accurate, you are still indulging in a fantasy world.
The fantasy genre in general, whether it be literature, film or tv has a narrow pool of people from the general population to pull from. This might sound weird but in my experience, at least in the latin community "fantasy" anything is pretty much disregarded. Its tolerated as a kid thing but as an adult you really should grow out of it. Also peer pressure and what other people think of you is really important and so even if someone is kind of into it, they would never admit to it or publicly display it because they would be ridiculed by their peers at nauseum.
Like I said, at least that is my experience.
Quote from: Auryn on February 04, 2010, 10:21:13 AM
I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that even if you go to faire historically accurate, you are still indulging in a fantasy world.
The fantasy genre in general, whether it be literature, film or tv has a narrow pool of people from the general population to pull from. This might sound weird but in my experience, at least in the latin community "fantasy" anything is pretty much disregarded. Its tolerated as a kid thing but as an adult you really should grow out of it. Also peer pressure and what other people think of you is really important and so even if someone is kind of into it, they would never admit to it or publicly display it because they would be ridiculed by their peers at nauseum.
Like I said, at least that is my experience.
Only bit I have to add relates to this, in that another subculture having a tremendous overlap with rennies, namely science fiction fans, exhibits a similar skewed race ratio, and in that case, there is no "historically accurate" restriction/limitation.
My personal opinion is that many in the minority community just don't think the middle age renaissance period applies to the them. Maybe because in the past hollywood never showed minorities in their period movies. However if you read Shakespeare you find many of his characters would fit what today we call minority community. Personally I'd love to see more mix of ethnically characters at faire loved a few season ago at Scarby to see an entire family dressed in Greece national dress.
I'm originally from the coal fields of PA and anything fantasy or science fiction was deeply suspect. While they have a faire near my old home town very few of the locals would ever consider dressing for it. In fact my own family were scandalized when I dress to attend it a couple of years ago. I was told such was not none.
Yes, there was a huge fascination with the Moors in the times, or so I've read. I don't really know much of their history.
True Auryn. The politics and economics of the time were much more involved than might seem on the surface. Certainly Western Europeans were not the only ones dealing in the slave trade, or in subjugating other countries. Seems to be a thing people like to do to one another.
Most likely you all are right and it's more that dresing up and playing is a kind of a nerdy thing to do. :D
*edited...western was the portion of Europe I meant to cite, though human nature being what it is I imagine eastern Europe had it's hand in the slave trade as well, at some point in history*
I may be out there in this theory but in Memphis we have a science and history museum that is a million years old. It was a white's only museum. Now, of course, anyone can go. But you will be hard pressed to find the black community visiting the museum unless it is a school trip.
A Civil War reenactment will rarely see minorities, especially blacks, and especially in the south. I am always surprised and quite pleased when I see "non-whites" at reenactments.
Historically minorities have always been oppressed. Maybe since the Ren Faire is history it is associated with this oppression. It seems to me that most of Memphis runs on this oppression association. It may also be a lack of proper education. Something prevalent here in Memphis. My view may be narrow, I am relating to my environment. Just a thought. :-\
Dino I agree that that is also a great posibility. I mean, I was raised Jewish, but I dunno that I would run out to a WWII re-enactment/event. But maybe that's because of all the skinheads and neo-nazi's I see around here.
Quote from: will paisley on February 04, 2010, 11:13:01 AM
Quote from: Auryn on February 04, 2010, 10:21:13 AM
I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that even if you go to faire historically accurate, you are still indulging in a fantasy world.
The fantasy genre in general, whether it be literature, film or tv has a narrow pool of people from the general population to pull from. This might sound weird but in my experience, at least in the latin community "fantasy" anything is pretty much disregarded. Its tolerated as a kid thing but as an adult you really should grow out of it. Also peer pressure and what other people think of you is really important and so even if someone is kind of into it, they would never admit to it or publicly display it because they would be ridiculed by their peers at nauseum.
Like I said, at least that is my experience.
Only bit I have to add relates to this, in that another subculture having a tremendous overlap with rennies, namely science fiction fans, exhibits a similar skewed race ratio, and in that case, there is no "historically accurate" restriction/limitation.
I'll chime in to say that I see very few black people at science fiction conventions as well. I'm not sure why, because they are pretty well represented in the genre, both as characters and creators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0VZj-85E5o
I'm happy to say I see the faires getting more and more mixed and we show off sword manuals that feature Jews, black Europeans and female sword practitioners. I think it's a case of education and catching people. How many English teachers point out that Alexandre Dumas was half Afro-Caribbean Creole? Or that plenty of rich African merchants were not lily-white? Frustrating but not insurmountable! Admittedly the northern faires are more mixed but I have been seeing Zorro and a number of Samurai down South. Recruiting for our own group to have diversity has been hard, admittedly.
I have to say that back at the original Pleasure Faire, one of the most unforgettable characters was a Moor who rode his horse around the peripheries of the Faire as a guard. He had dreadlocks, which I'd never seen before (this was in the early 70's). In general, however, I also have noticed a lack of diversity at Faires over the years, but this seems to be changing, all for the good in my opinion.
I would like to add that it also takes disposable income to attend Faire....Sadly, even though there are many poor Caucasians, there is still a deeper rift for people of other ethnic makeup in the financial department in our country...Another thing that keeps getting better, but it's still there.
It occurred to me while driving after I'd posted this that an ethnic group that tends to have disposable income are Asian people in our country, again, seen less at Faire than Caucasians. I'm wondering along with some postings above if it's discouraged within the culture...Perhaps because of the tradition of conformity to the group? I wish we had more cross-cultural folk here to check in with...The postings already have been very intriguing altogether.
My hubby is hispanic and hawaiian and loves going as does his mexican step father and family. We have a friend who is black and loves going also. However, as Blue said, he isn't your "stereotypical" black man, definitely holds different interests. I have several hispanic friends who enjoy going also. I'm willing to bet that TRF has a bit more of a mix than many faires just because of the ethnic mix of the area.
I am part Fillipino, Puerto Rican, Mexican, Venezuelan and French (in addition to some other ethnicities swimming around there).
My current character (based on the real Sir John Davies... look it up) is of Welsh ancestry but was raised in England. The guy before that was English (Yeoman Christopher "Kit" Foxe, Yeoman of the Guard of the Queen's Guard)
For the most part casting at the California's have been "color-blind". If you have the ability to play someone, it is not denied you.
Considering that the high percentage of non-white people, this works for us.
As for the audience perception, no one really believes that I'm the 16th century poet "John Davies", but if you have an audience willing to play and willing to suspend disbelief then it just flows.
To quote the Bard himself:
Can this cockpit hold
The vasty fields of France? or may we cram
Within this wooden O the very casques
That did affright the air at Agincourt?
It's all make-believe, don't limit yourself to outward appearances...
Quote from: Zardoz on February 04, 2010, 12:57:08 PM
Quote from: will paisley on February 04, 2010, 11:13:01 AM
Quote from: Auryn on February 04, 2010, 10:21:13 AM
I think that a lot of it has to do with the fact that even if you go to faire historically accurate, you are still indulging in a fantasy world.
The fantasy genre in general, whether it be literature, film or tv has a narrow pool of people from the general population to pull from. This might sound weird but in my experience, at least in the latin community "fantasy" anything is pretty much disregarded. Its tolerated as a kid thing but as an adult you really should grow out of it. Also peer pressure and what other people think of you is really important and so even if someone is kind of into it, they would never admit to it or publicly display it because they would be ridiculed by their peers at nauseum.
Like I said, at least that is my experience.
Only bit I have to add relates to this, in that another subculture having a tremendous overlap with rennies, namely science fiction fans, exhibits a similar skewed race ratio, and in that case, there is no "historically accurate" restriction/limitation.
I'll chime in to say that I see very few black people at science fiction conventions as well. I'm not sure why, because they are pretty well represented in the genre, both as characters and creators.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0VZj-85E5o
Well down here scifi and comic cons are REALLY more mixed than our faire is, a lot of the local kids are otaku mainly, so the anime cons are definitely way mixed, and larger comic/scifi cons are also...but that might just be because of our locale.
Maybe because our faire is in the North (MN) but I have seen quite a mix of people there. I think it's one of the largest cross sections of people in the state. My hometown is very middle income/mostly white, but faire is more diverse. We have people from other countries, that don't speak English, that come to our faire. Some were Asian, not sure what country. Some were Middle Eastern and had thick accents. Some were from India. Sometimes I don't know what language they are speaking, but it sounded like Russian.
We also have black people that are in entertainment and own shops, as well as patrons. I remember one guy with dreads.. he was very handsome and striking in appearance! I wanted to paint his portrait! We have had black moor characters.
One of the pickle guys said he was an Eskimo, in an English village, wearing a Scottish kilt, selling kosher pickles.
One can not always tell by appearances, what race another person is. Many of us are mixed, but may only appear to be one race.
Our faire is close to Shakopee, where there are more Mdewakanton Dakota people. I have seen Native Americans and Mexicans at our faire. Some of them were customers and had Native names (on the checks they wrote to me)
We probably do have more white looking people than not. Overall, it's more of a mix than I usually see at home.
I have little info I can throw in here. While my family is Caucasian thru and thru we have a roommate that is Asian. He has been a very close family friend for the last five years. He moved to Florida from California where his family is located. Asian families that I have come in contact with are very family oriented. I grew up in San Fransisco until I was 11 so had many Asian friends. Our roommate has never lived on his own, not that he couldn't as he has a very disposable income, he prefers to live with others and mainly families. He among most Asian individuals I know is well educated and has a high appreciation for the arts in every form from crafts to performace. He is the "Uncle" to both my children and loves them as his own. He is very disciplined in nature and is a MMA fighter as well. He attends fair with us yearly but does not dress up. He ends up being our photographer. He is not against dressing up but he has no interest in the European history, he goes because we go as a Family.He enjoys himself, taking in everything there is to see but he does not "participate". He doesn't come out and say this but I think the festival does bring out, to him, a childish nature that in Asian culture they do not like to accept when they are adults. They expect adults to be well disciplined especially males , which I can say we seem to throw out the window at the fair for fun. But then again it is disrespectful to not attend a family tradition, so year after year he goes. And yes we were the first family to ever invite him to the fair. ;)
Maybe because most "Faires" celebrate white northern European culture? I see no harm nor foul here, all are welcome but no surprise we see a large percentage of Caucasians. I am also not shocked in the least that most Cinco De Mayo participants are of Mexican descent. And imagine my lack of surprise to find a predominately Native American crowd at several of the local Pow Wow celebrations. Of course everyone is Irish on 'Paddy's day no mater skin color or lineage!
We all find comfort in our heritage, and most find joy in others celebrating their heritage as well.
All are welcome, that's the truly great thing about every fair I have ever visited. I also note that at least around here most "cultural celebrations" go out of their way to invite non-whites, non Native Americans, non-Mexicans, etc. Our very own MNRF had two "theme weekends" encouraging Asian and Hispanic participation. Big tent indeed!
Quote from: Noble Dreg on February 04, 2010, 09:47:09 PM
Maybe because most "Faires" celebrate white northern European culture? I see no harm nor foul here, all are welcome but no surprise we see a large percentage of Caucasians. I am also not shocked in the least that most Cinco De Mayo participants are of Mexican descent. And imagine my lack of surprise to find a predominately Native American crowd at several of the local Pow Wow celebrations. Of course everyone is Irish on 'Paddy's day no mater skin color or lineage!
We all find comfort in our heritage, and most find joy in others celebrating their heritage as well.
All are welcome, that's the truly great thing about every fair I have ever visited. I also note that at least around here most "cultural celebrations" go out of their way to invite non-whites, non Native Americans, non-Mexicans, etc. Our very own MNRF had two "theme weekends" encouraging Asian and Hispanic participation. Big tent indeed!
Where I live EVERYONE celebrates cinco de mayo basically...cause here its become an excuse to leave school/work and get smashed. :(
Quote from: blue66669 on February 04, 2010, 09:23:51 AM
As someone on the inside of the "ethnic curve", usually, it's not culturally acceptable to do these sorts of things. Acceptable past times, stereotypically of course, DO NOT include exploring the Middle Ages/Renaissance in a costume. If you'd like me to go more into it, I most certainly will.
Blue, I would like for you to go more into it, I think this is a very interesting topic.
To say that "historically the minorities have always been oppressed" is patenly false, unless you are fishing for a PC prize. If you had said "in recent history" then I wouldn't have taken issue and would have just kept reading. But I'm going to add my 2c.
We of the human race have a very long history of treating each other very badly throughout our entire history. Stepping back in history, the Romans enslaved everyone they conquered, and they didn't give 2 squirell nuts if you were red, yellow, black, brown, white or green. As a race, we humans have been walking this planet for 150,000 years. Racism, slavery, bad behaviour, idiocy, stupidity (ad nauseum) is par for the course with us. Every race, creed, color, ethinicty, hair color has been "oppressed". Consider the points that some have posted here where others in there own ethnicity have "oppressed" those that like to participate in faire. It's all the same bad attitude. It's all the same mental process of thinking that "if you don't look and act like me then you are different and therefore you are bad." Think "purple monkey" syndrome. To quote from a book, "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he." What never ceases to amaze me about this human race, is that whatever we believe can drive us to extents and extremes and give us permission in our own minds and hearts to treat others badly.
I'd like to suggest that we all be a little more careful and diligent about what we believe. There are 2 things in this world that cannot be replaced. One is time, and the other is people.
[Thank you for letting me give voice to that.]
Ok, I'm going to drop the PC cloth for a minute and give you a hint of what I was while growing up. Please remember that this is only my opinion, and my personal experiences.
Growing up half white and half black, I had a suprisingly hard time finding a niche for myself. As a small child, I was ostracized by my white peers because my father was black. I cried everyday because of it. I had kids in kindergarten and first grade ACTUALLY tell me that their fathers were better than mine because their fathers were white. It's a load of bull, but you start to wonder if it's true after awhile. Fast forward to middle school. After being very culturally diverse in elementary school (and getting teased for being so damn awkward), I got to an upper middle class middle school in an Honors program, which automatically put me, racially, into the minority. It was time for me to quit being socially awkward. So I try to befriend whomever I can. Failed. Miserably.
I noticed that the groups in my honors classes were highly segregated. There was a group of blacks, a group of whites, and a group of hispanics. The asians and the nerds kinda hung out together, and the goth kids hung out together. But, if you looked closely, blacks were ALWAYS on their own. There was no such thing as the blacks joining ANY of these other groups... UNLESS there was a need for them being there (like, the one black girl on the cheer squad, or the one black girl on the volleyball team, etc.) OR if said black had, as many of my future black friends would have put it, "denied their people". I assimilated myself into the black group, but poorly. I spoke in complete sentences, free of slang, because language was always stressed in my home. I wore clothes that fit properly, and my hair was never "done". Over the course of three years, I changed the way I spoke, how I dressed, and what I looked like, so as to fit in more with the group that I wanted to belong to. But, it was never enough. While they would be nice to me often, sometimes my race would come into question, and the fact that I was "too white". And lest you all think that this is an affliction from just the idiot kids at school, you'd be wrong. To this day, as I go to see my father's family, they still look at me, my white husband, and my seemingly white children with misunderstanding and disdain.
As I got older, I realized that I did not enjoy being a "poser". So I drifted more towards the goth kids, who really didn't care WHAT color I was. It was at that time that my black friends turned on me. I was told that listening to rock music, going to goth clubs, and wearing band tees and grungy jeans wasn't what I was supposed to be. I was called uppity because I spoke well, and was teased, and later on harrassed, because "it's not what african americans are supposed to be". It's absolutely rediculous, trust me, cause I've lived it. But blacks, as a culture, are still closed-minded on the whole. They succumb to the stereotype that "someone" set up for them, and REFUSE to acknowledge that maybe, just maybe, it's ok to NOT be the damn stereotype. So everyday, they seek to live up to the image that someone laid down many years ago. They stereotypically stay poor and uneducated, shun the english language, and refuse to pull up their pants. There's a "ghetto swagger" that is engrained into the DNA, and an intolerance of any one of their own that decide that there is something better. No, I don't have to sell drugs or be a rap star, or a girl in a video in order to succeed.
So in looking at Ren Faire.... it's just another thing (and I quote, from my father's family) that those "crazy white people do".
At a guess, I'd say that the majority of participants are White. There are a fair number of Hispanics both as participants, and particularly as non-costumed visitors. Faire is still a place that's much less expensive than other venues in the area and a good place to take the family for an outing. Both our entertainment manager and stage director are Hispanic. We have a number of Blacks (I have problems with the term African-American because I think it's divisive instead of inclusive) both as participants and visitors, but I don't think they're in proportion to the general population in Southern California.
It's kind of strange...growing up in Kansas and Nebraska I never once even saw anybody other than hispanic or caucasian ethnicity. But I was raised by the principle that you look at the person and not what the person is like on the outside. I wasn't introduced to a wider range of skin colors till I moved down here to Texas.
I work with a guy that was in somewhat the same situation you were when growing up Blue. He's half black and half indian (native american) and always had a problem finding his place in the world. And I don't know you very well but you strike me as the same type of person as he is. Very independent, educated, well spoken, and an all around good guy to know.
All that matters to me is how you treat yourself and others around you. I find the more I surround myself with good people the better a person that I become. And faire folk are some of the best of people ;D
Quote from: bran_gray on February 05, 2010, 12:16:54 PM...faire folk are some of the best of people
Hear! Hear!
I may agree with you... but I've met some faire folk that make me lose my faith in humanity. They're few and far between, thank god!
..and I'll "Hear Hear" to that! :D People are people.....
BUT....I do think ren folk are more likely to not hold prejudice against someone for their relatives behaviour. Not to continue with the same divisive thinking. Same with Civil War renenactors...or so I imagine. I've not participated in one, but I'd like to think that the very act of participation makes you give a look into the roles we are playing and a better understanding of our natures (and hopefully how not to repeat them!)
Being a southern girl and having a decidedly western european heritage, I can't help but look at the role my own distant, and not so distant relatives played in the current cultural climate. Not to turn this into anything political please!, I just find our histories so interesting and I wonder if culturally we'll all ever find a happy balance..a happy blending without any one culture losing itself. I think perhaps that's why the many communities find it hard to play with each other. I think perhaps it is our nature to want to assimilate rather than blend and based on our combined histories there is a deep seated mistrust. I think it takes alot of guts to remain an individual amidst all the tugging.
Anyway...went off on a serious tangent there...but human nature is endlessly fascinating to me. In the end faire as I know it is just play. I personally wouldn't think twice no matter what role someone chose to play. I think it really is just a matter of cultural play styles.
Excellent thread.
Blue, you have given voice to what I have long suspected, but dared not believe.
I was raised not to judge, but it does seem that black groups gravitate together, for a vast number of reasons, at schools and jobs. I still don't get why a population segment would actually seek to self-segregate, but perhaps it is for mutual support, a safety net - if you will.
One of my favorite examples of human behavior is the fact that it has been over 100 years since the invention of the toothbrush, 50 since the discovery of flouride, yet ours is the first generation that does not say "when I get my choppers". We are simply very slow to change.
Now for my opinion on Faire attendance.
I believe in racial memory. The lilting sound of bagpipes brings tears to my eyes every time.
I also consider the idea of racial karma - that our current social situation is a matter of the pendulum swing. The black folk could be working through the repercussion of the enslavement of Israeli tribes in Egypt.
Here in Cincinnati, there is a festivel involving Riverboats called Tall Stacks. It celebrates the time when steam powered paddle boats were in regular use. There are costumed actors (not many) and live music. Very rarely do I see African-Americans attending. This makes sense to me, for why should they be nostalgic about this part of American History? Perhaps RenFaires are similar, they simply do not call to the heart of the race as a whole.
I am drawn to the elements of Faire that speak to my lineage. That's not the only thing, of course, I love to play dress-up, but what would draw other cultural backgrounds?
Well, I wonder about such things at faire. At a lot of the faires, there are gypsies, there are italians, french, germans, english... hell, our faire even has an elvish, peasant, faerie, barbarian, and TRANSYLVANIAN court! The theme of most renaissance festivals is that of a villiage full of things from all over the world, brought to a market to share culture and commerce. In that sense... why would it be too far fetched to have an Egyptian, or even a North African court? Something like that, done tastefully, may look to bridge the gap between cultures. Just a thought...
Imestra,I never thought about it like that.(your faire opinion) I'm raising my 15 yr.old neice she is bi-racial and she LOVES faire, she works at MDRF and she has said "why do you think thay there are not many black people at faire"? I will surely have her read your post. Thank you.
And Blue- great idea. We could use that closure on that gap.
Funny, but I guess I've always just figured that it wasn't their "thing", which is cool; there are plenty of interests out there that aren't my "thing", either. To each, his/her own :) .
And speaking of what is 'my thing' and what is not, my sister & I were given mum's old purses & hats and encouraged to play dress up as children. That memory makes me wonder if playing dress up was part of other peoples childhood.
It is a psychological fact that what gives adults the greatest pleasure in the bedroom always has a direct relationship to a happy childhood memory. Perhaps my addiction to Faires is similar in origin.
Quote from: blue66669 on February 06, 2010, 05:18:59 PM
why would it be too far fetched to have an Egyptian, or even a North African court?
ooooo, think of the wardrobe on those guys! Wouldn't their guards just be too hot??
I have to say that I find this one of the more interesting discussions that's come up in a while...I think that blue's idea is great!
Quote from: blue66669 on February 06, 2010, 05:18:59 PM
Well, I wonder about such things at faire. At a lot of the faires, there are gypsies, there are italians, french, germans, english... hell, our faire even has an elvish, peasant, faerie, barbarian, and TRANSYLVANIAN court! The theme of most renaissance festivals is that of a villiage full of things from all over the world, brought to a market to share culture and commerce. In that sense... why would it be too far fetched to have an Egyptian, or even a North African court? Something like that, done tastefully, may look to bridge the gap between cultures. Just a thought...
Well, dress up may not have been a part of everyones childhood, but storytelling and some style of theatre are part of every culture that I can think of. That's what faire is anyway, a sort of made up story. Certainly most of the women I know at faire have very made up stories, as most if not all of us would have had quite a different reality, with far less Independence and education.
Egyptian would be interesting of course, but I'd love to see a few more period Kingdoms from Africa. That would be such a great addition to the tapestry. :)
Quote from: Anna Iram on February 07, 2010, 08:48:43 AM
Well, dress up may not have been a part of everyones childhood, but storytelling and some style of theatre are part of every culture that I can think of. That's what faire is anyway, a sort of made up story. Certainly most of the women I know at faire have very made up stories, as most if not all of us would have had quite a different reality, with far less Independence and education.
Egyptian would be interesting of course, but I'd love to see a few more period Kingdoms from Africa. That would be such a great addition to the tapestry. :)
I agree!
Ok, along these lines, I'm going to ask a dumb question, because I honestly don't know- there are festivals recreating medieval and renaissance Europe, Dickens era, and wars from myriad times in history, colonial American parks, etc... are there any events that recreate periods and cultures from Africa...or from the middle east, eastern Asia, or elsewhere, for that matter? And if not, I wonder why not? Speaking for myself, if there were something like that close enough to where I live, I'd find it a treat.
The only thing that comes to mind that celebrates several cultures in one 'event' here in Houston is the Houston International Festival. It is a pretty neat festival, not period driven by any means, but you see some really great wares for sale, have some good food and the music is pretty awesome.
True, Bonnie, and I thought about that too. And there are a few Viking festivals I've heard about but never been to. But what I really mean is something along the lines of TRF/Scarby but geared towards, say, Egyptian history, as someone mentioned earlier? Or Imperial Japan, or ancient Polynesian cultures... know what I mean?
Locally we have a bunch of Japanese festivals and faires...because we have a traditional Japanese museum and LARGE gardens that accompany it. Yum, taiko drumming! But they should make something that is more like a ren faire, only for a different area/time period. Hmmm
We do get to see a good Japanese festival here, and no, it's nothing about the history.
To be blunt, I think that our nation's African Americans are too busy whining about the injustices that happened a few hundred years ago to appreciate the rich tapestry that is our history. Just my thoughts...
Quote from: Imestra on February 06, 2010, 06:45:49 AM
Blue, you have given voice to what I have long suspected, but dared not believe.
I'll second this, those posts are very enlightening.
I always figured it wasn't very diverse because it deals primarily with Northern European culture, and people tend to gravitate to what they can relate to. I've noticed, though, in recent years that's been changing, and I've been seeing more nonwhite faces in the crowds and on cast at various faires.
Blue, I appreciate your insights too. Sorry, sometimes I forget to ackowledge what I read and agree with. I *do*agree it will be a good day when *everybody* can say "well, alot of **** happened, but that's not who we are now."
Tipsy, there are living history events (quite alot that exhibit the early experiences of the African Americans here, for example) and cultural events from lots of cultures with food and music and dance, but I don't know that there is anything out there quite like what Ren fairs have grown into. I agree it'd be awesome. I'm already thinking who I'd be if I had the chance to visit an African Village, or ancient China, or Egypt....
Maybe it *is* just a quirk of our Euoropean backgrounds that makes us not just want to attend theatre but to get out of our seats and jump on stage. :)
Quote from: blue66669 on February 07, 2010, 06:47:50 PM
We do get to see a good Japanese festival here, and no, it's nothing about the history.
To be blunt, I think that our nation's African Americans are too busy whining about the injustices that happened a few hundred years ago to appreciate the rich tapestry that is our history. Just my thoughts...
I actually kind of agree with this also.
Quote from: Anna Iram on February 07, 2010, 11:54:54 PMMaybe it *is* just a quirk of our Euoropean backgrounds that makes us not just want to attend theatre but to get out of our seats and jump on stage. :)
I would think that, more than likely, alcohol is somehow involved with that behaviour. ;D
Hennessey has never made my black friends dress up like slaves.... LOLOLOLOL!!!
Ok, that may have been too far.
To note the Historical accurate: There is a portrait of an African trumpeter in the court of King Henry VIII and "Black Ellen" was an woman of note in the Court of Scotland.
Yes, North Africans were in England and Scotland in the 1500's
Quote from: blue66669 on February 08, 2010, 12:00:05 PM
Hennessey has never made my black friends dress up like slaves.... LOLOLOLOL!!!
Ok, that may have been too far.
DOH! :o Oh Blue..... you are too much lol! :D
We have Memphis in May, which everyone thinks of as BBQ and music. There is much more to it or at least used to be. Every year a new African country is chosen to be celebrated. Used to be a really cool cultural immersion event but has turned into more of a noisy drunken brawl over the years. Too bad. ::)
I do want to say how please I am that this discussion has not only remained civil but is quite informative, diverse, and enjoyable. It is so wonderful to have a discussion such as this and not have it turn into some sort of PC/liberal/conservative/prejudice/whiny/point figures grunt fest. Thank you, everyone, truly!
Off soap box now! ;D
Grunt fest! LMAO I love it!
Quote from: blue66669 on February 08, 2010, 12:00:05 PM
Ok, that may have been too far.
Maybe, maybe not. Too soon ?
Did y'all know the Vikings took
everybody to sell as slaves?
St. Patrick himself was a slave at the age of 16. Then became (duh) a strong voice against slavery during his ecumenical career.
Appreciate the info, VIII ! Can't wait to read up on Black Ellen.
Quote from: Imestra on February 08, 2010, 06:52:51 PM
Did y'all know the Vikings took everybody to sell as slaves?
oh yes, that is very true. i'm sure somewhere in my genetic mish mash i have an ancestor or two that were slaves of the vikings.
I'm pretty sure almost every culture in history has taken slaves at some point. Sadly, its human nature to take advantage of others.
Quote from: Rapier Half-Wit on February 08, 2010, 11:44:06 AM
Quote from: Anna Iram on February 07, 2010, 11:54:54 PMMaybe it *is* just a quirk of our Euoropean backgrounds that makes us not just want to attend theatre but to get out of our seats and jump on stage. :)
I would think that, more than likely, alcohol is somehow involved with that behaviour. ;D
LOl...yeah...and wasn't it bad beer that made the Salem lot burn the witches. Or something to that effect? Always thought that would make an interesting living history event. The cast gets to pick the biggest a** of the day from the paytrons/playtrons and they get stoned at the end of the day.
Quote from: VIII on February 08, 2010, 12:00:12 PM
To note the Historical accurate: There is a portrait of an African trumpeter in the court of King Henry VIII and "Black Ellen" was an woman of note in the Court of Scotland.
Yes, North Africans were in England and Scotland in the 1500's
Interesting. I'd like to know more about her.
I don't know why I didn't see this before, but Blue, I'm chiming in lol!
From my experience, in faire and outside of faire, anything that is outside of the "norm" of the typical black community is looked down upon. Basically if you are not trying to hustle, listen to hip hop, staying in the streets, etc etc. It is considered "white" and that black people don't do these kinds of things. I could go on for HOURS on this, but I'll keep it faire related.
When my husband and I go to the faire, we make it a point to count how many black people we see. The most we have every seen at the MDRF was 303. And out of those, about 20 were in garb.
My older sister, who is 33 years old, asked me why I attend Ren Faires. I told her because it is fun, I feel comfortable there (as opposed to hanging out with many people of my own race). She told me, she didn't understand why because black people were not around then. Yes, she said that. So I told her, well what, did we magically poof up?
I'm going to be brutally honest here. In most black communities, education is not something that is pushed for as a goal. Which is probably why my 33 year old sister came up with such a remark. If you are black and smart, you are considered a sell out, a nerd. If you are doing activities like ren fairs, comic cons, dungeons and dragons, etc, then you are not considered "black" in your own community.
You know, I had always just assumed that the Europeans had gone to Africa and captured all the natives for slaves. Because of this topic, I did some research into it. I was ignorant to the fact that it was a trade from the Europeans and the African Kings. In exchange for weapons and artillery, the Kings would give the Europeans some of their slaves. So, in essence, it was the African monarchy that allowed slavery to happen on the scale that it did.
And omg Marisa.... we talked about this at MDRF last year. It's so interesting!
Now, it's a very special thing when we black people see each other enjoying faire together. It made my heart happy to see Seasan and Wesley, IN GARB, out at RenDezvous. In fact, it was a picture of her and Wesley on the old RF banner that made me stick around. There is an exquisitely garbed older black couple that attends Scarby and TRF. I always make it a point to say hello to them. They, like us, are a cultural rarity. And, it's nice to not feel so alone.
Very interesting points have been brought up.
What a lot of people don't realize and are not taught in social studies at school (junior/high school level) is the true history of enslavement in human history. It wasn't only about one race believing themselves to be superior of another. It wasn't 'invented' in America. Our country was the largest and latest and slavery is still very much practiced in some countries to this day. It was about power and what one could do to get and increase that power and keep it no matter the race, sex or religion.
Another example of power is the old church system. Science was a no-no to the church. Forward thought was a no-no. You could be jailed, burned, decapitated, etc, for scientific or forward thought. Once again... It was about power.
It would be great to see more people from different races, etc, come out and play dress up. :)
You know, it never occured to me that it would make you feel lonely Blue. I guess, if the roles were reversed I'd feel the same way. Honestly, I hadn't really thought about it at all until now. This thread has got me reading alot of sites.
Yes, I'd read the same thing about guns for slaves. *having tried to read more about this, I find it hard to be clear exatly who all was involved, some say some of the Arab states were involved in this, though yes,it's clear the Europeans ignited conflicts between factions and then arming one side took their captives as payment.*
You're right. Everybody was capturing and enslaving one another and have been from the get go. I've read that before the Europeans became involved the Africans would sell off unruly relatives and even sell themselves into slavery ( for a set amount of time) to pay off a debt or to move up a bit in life. That sort of thing is prevalent in other cultures as well. *Hmmm...note here. In retrospect this seems a Eurocentric thing to say. I'll leave it, but I don't think I endorse this train of thought after all. I expect the reality was not nearly so casual as I make it seem here.*
It wasn't just about power ,though yes it was when you owned your enemy, but it was the economics that really kept the triangle going. It's bizare how all of the bit's and pieces are tied together.
Lady Season, I grew up in a rural farming community where it was assumed most of us would have no need of a higher eduation. It was a lower inome community and our schools didn't get the best teachers. History was more or less brushed over, so I relate to your sister not being so sure of what seems like the very distant past. Okay...maybe not to the degeee that I thought the Africans wern't around yet... ;D, but I get how that can happen. It's a shame when we aren't all taught our histories and what really happened.
Quote from: blue66669 on February 08, 2010, 08:11:14 PM
Now, it's a very special thing when we black people see each other enjoying faire together. It made my heart happy to see Seasan and Wesley, IN GARB, out at RenDezvous. In fact, it was a picture of her and Wesley on the old RF banner that made me stick around. There is an exquisitely garbed older black couple that attends Scarby and TRF. I always make it a point to say hello to them. They, like us, are a cultural rarity. And, it's nice to not feel so alone.
black people for the win! lol (is that too much)
but yes, on a serious note, its awesome when i see other black people at faire, IN garb. usually we go, ans we are probably the only black people dressed. and we get asked lots of questions from other black people at the faire, as well as them wanting to take pictures with us
in fact, at this past mdrf, Wes and I spent about 20 minutes explaining what is going on at the faire (King Henry, different social classes etc) to a group of young black children. And they were so entranced, and it felt awesome to give them a different perspective of things that happen outside of their normal community.
Well, even at TRF, we're still a bit of a novelty. I can count about 6 black people, and about 15 or so hispanics that make up our cast. It's easier for the hispanics, seeing as though there is a Spanish court.
It's always made things a little more difficult, but I think that getting into this group was really worth it!
There is nothing wrong with playing up our differences either...The most amazing sight I ever saw at fest was a muscular good-looking black male with a very attractive blonde white female. He had huge black feathered wings and a "Conan" type look. The blonde had large white feathered wings and an "elven" appearance. The pair could not go more than two feet without having to stop for a dozen cameras!
Seperation breeds contempt, coming together, be it Fest or anything else makes for understanding and freindship.
Not too be "PC", but interactions like these help my kids grow up more accepting of that that is "different".
I would be curious if, as some one mildly indicated previously, if black attendance would be signifficant if there was a "Kingdon of Kush or Nubia" Festival, celebrating these awesome Empires that pre-date the Renaissance. I think it would be a great faire to check out.
Or even large Asian presence at a "Canton Faire" focusing on say Ming or Yuan Dynasty life and times.
Seems that we European types dwell on our history and take active pleasure in recreating it.
Quote from: Bonny Pearl on February 08, 2010, 08:38:06 PM
Another example of power is the old church system. Science was a no-no to the church. Forward thought was a no-no. You could be jailed, burned, decapitated, etc, for scientific or forward thought. Once again... It was about power.
It would be great to see more people from different races, etc, come out and play dress up. :)
Elizabeth had Dr. Dee. Dee was a scientist and a magician. (RPF's "Dr Dee" is a fascinating man and knows more on him than one could probably get from most books)
For the most part the history we play was *very* forward thinking in contrast with what came before. We were not savages.
Savages, no..... exacting harsh judgment and sentencing due to lack of understanding/knowledge, yes.
But I'll see you your Dr. Dee and raise you Galileo, lol! That man lived under house arrest for a good latter part of his life courtesy of the Inquisition (insert Monty Python music here lol, :) ) He got into trouble for his theory that the Sun was the center of the universe and that Earth traveled around it which was directly opposite of what was believed then.
Plus, The Church of England did not answer to Rome as so many other countries did in that era.
Anywhoooo, this thread is not really about Theology. My point in bringing up old church practices as another example was to point out that enslavement comes in many forms, physical, mental, emotional, etc. But it still boils down to one component that drove such behavior.... Power.
Quote from: Capt Robertsgrave Thighbiter on February 09, 2010, 10:49:29 AM
I would be curious if, as some one mildly indicated previously, if black attendance would be signifficant if there was a "Kingdon of Kush or Nubia" Festival, celebrating these awesome Empires that pre-date the Renaissance. I think it would be a great faire to check out.
Or even large Asian presence at a "Canton Faire" focusing on say Ming or Yuan Dynasty life and times.
Seems that we European types dwell on our history and take active pleasure in recreating it.
I hate to bust your bubble, but even if there were a festival of sorts, where awesome African empires were the focus, there would still be a very low number of black people in attendances. As I said in one of my earlier posts, education is not something that is really pushed for in the typical black community. Now of course there are those who stand out, but in general, most black communities don't pride education as they should. So with that, most black people do not even know of the Kush or Nubian empires, which is a sad thing indeed.
That is a shame. I learned about those empires doing a pitch paper for a film series I called " Every 100 Years", which looked at civilization at various key locations around the world every hundred years, from 2000 BC to 1000 AD, to see what changed and what new developements had taken place.
Certainly modern Western history courses don't dwell much on those cultures.
Quote from: LadySeasan on February 11, 2010, 01:14:33 AM
I hate to bust your bubble, but even if there were a festival of sorts, where awesome African empires were the focus, there would still be a very low number of black people in attendances. As I said in one of my earlier posts, education is not something that is really pushed for in the typical black community. Now of course there are those who stand out, but in general, most black communities don't pride education as they should. So with that, most black people do not even know of the Kush or Nubian empires, which is a sad thing indeed.
I'm not sure this is related, but when I used to work in Southwest, I remember seeing a couple of "African" shops, which were very popular. What struck me as odd is how much of the merchandise was simply labeled "Africa" (especially the pullover knit hats with the red, yellow and green). There was nothing identified as being from a particular country, region or even tribe; everything was "African". The other thing I noted was that busts of Nefertiti and "pictures" of Cleopatra were popular (all portrayed as black, and some with her hair in cornrows), along with the slogan "Before there was, We Were". From the looks of it, it seemed that not only did the patrons of these stores not know much about African history, but what they did know was false (and if the store owners knew, they didn't care).
Quote from: Imestra on February 08, 2010, 06:52:51 PMAppreciate the info, VIII ! Can't wait to read up on Black Ellen.
The history states that knights would joust in her honor for the reward of a kiss from her 'fulsome lips' and the losers would have to kiss her,... well,... ::) you know.
I don't know personally what the reason is but most playtrons I know are white.
Alessandro de Medici was half black. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/medici.html)
I think people of color might be more interested in the renaiisance if they knew that many important characters were not of anglo-saxon-roman descent.
High school history glosses so many details that sometimes the ones you might identify with gets glossed over.
Louis XIII was 9 years old when he was crowned and by fifteen his word was law in France (yes I know about Richilieu). Point that out to a fifteen year old boy you know and see his eyes light up. I guarantee from that moment French history will look different to him.
This is a really interesting thread. I always think its so interesting to see cultural influences in peoples garb, whether it be scandinavian, asian, celtic, spanish, moorish, slavic, african etc ad infinitum. It enriches the experience so much whether it is accurate or not. But it is fantasy. I love wearing garb inspired by other cultures that are not my own heritage. I would love for more people to find the experience fun and as exciting as I do. I dont know if because the theme tends to be an english village is offputting to some? I hope not. Maybe they just think we are too white and nerdy.
Quote from: DonaCatalina on February 16, 2010, 03:15:51 PM
I don't know personally what the reason is but most playtrons I know are white.
Alessandro de Medici was half black. (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/secret/famous/medici.html)
I think people of color might be more interested in the renaiisance if they knew that many important characters were not of anglo-saxon-roman descent.
Southern has a gentleman playing Alessandro son (Guilio de Medici).