Ok ladies and gents, I need some "proof" that there were pink fabrics and or dresses, doublets, or combinations of, during the renaissance. Mens and womens clothing. What shades of pink? Also, maybe what "is not" H/A.
Thank you!
It was extremely popular in the 16th century in Italy (at least according to Moroni). Google "Moroni portrait" and you'll get tons of hits, like these:
http://cgfa.acropolisinc.com/moroni/moroni9.jpg
http://dardel.info/museum/museum1/Moroni.jpg (probably the most famous "pink" portrait of the Renaissance)
Pink: major yes!!
And actually, the brighter, the better. Don't go for light pastel. The way a colour was rated, was that the more intense the colour was, the more expensive it was. Cheaper textiles was dyed in the dye bat last, and got paler shades. That's not what you want if you go for upper middle class or nobility.
Pink shades weren't actually called pink, though. They were variants of red. To us "red" is red, maybe blood red or orange red, but definitely red. But in the past colours got name after what sort of dye was used to create the shade. And every dye could be manipulated to achieve numerous shades. Chermisi (crimson) could for example be both pink, red and scarlet.
Pink in actual portraits? I'm a sucker for Italian style, so that's mainly the references I have. But enjoy!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/ghirlandaio1486b.jpg
(this is a fresco, so the colour of the garb appears a tad more muted than it probably was in real life)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/puligi1523magdalen2.jpg
(borderlining red, and was probably considered so as well, but I see it as more pink)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/foschi1530s.jpg
(ditto)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/bacchiacca1540.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/bronzino1541.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/bronzino1540.jpg
(three very similar dresses from the 1540s Florence. They would probably also be considered red to the period eye)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/bronzino1543.jpg
(Eleonora di Toledo in a dress, which it is indeed the same, is described as "crimson with gold bands")
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/bologne/fontana1580.jpg
(a 1580 portrait of a little girl in pink overdress)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/brescia1535.jpg
(is it salmon? Is it rust? Is it pink? Your choice...)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/zelotti1560sfoscari.jpg
(Barbie pink!)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/robusti1600courtesan.jpg
(I-want-that-fabric-NOOOOOOOOW pink)
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/bergamo/moroni1560.jpg
(again, would probably be considered red for the period eye, but to the modern eye it can be seen as pink as well)
There's also Eva Andersson's pink Lyon dress:
http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/TempledeLyon.html
I've been told yes, as I am ALWAYS in pink, mostly deep shades of fuschia. GO FOR IT!
WOW! Knew I came to the right place. Thank you ladies!
Ok, one more question. What about this color. For royal garb?(http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac260/missylulabell/IMG_3725.jpg)
What color is that? On my screen it looks either deep turquoise or forest green. (And just in case you meant that *fabric,* and not just that color... it appears to be a knit, which isn't the best choice for garb.)
Yes turquoise is a valid color for the time period however I agree with Gem. That does look like a knit and if you are going for H/A then knits did not exist at that time so you shouldn't use it. If not worrying about H/A then go for it.
Sorry, not the fabric, the color. It's my daughters favorite tee shirt. She wants a dress this color, its like a seafoam green.
Here are a couple of portraits (one a self-portrait) by Alessandro Allori (Italian, 16th c.):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/Self_Portrait_-_Alessandro_Allori.jpg
This is a little more blue IRL:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2009/Kerri-Alessandro_Allori_003.jpg
The Italians particularly fancied much brighter colors than we often think of for Renaissance clothing.
Not to mention
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/lippi1450-55berlin.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/ghirlandaio1486.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/botticelli1484graces.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/ghirlandaio1530s.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze3/allori1580-90c.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/temporary/unknown3.jpg
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia1/bassana153040cop.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/fasologreen1550s.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/caldogno5.jpg
(granted I see the colour in my monitor as you see it)
As usual, at least for Italians, bright colour = expensive fabric. Only colour you should avoid for H/A is modern purple. Purple always seems to be more reddish purple in historical sources; the screaming bluish purple is a product of dye inventions of the mid 19th century. That's not to say all colours are period because they existed back then; different regions had different preferences, and some colours (or rather, dyes) were reserved for specific classes.
Thank you!
LOL, Anea--that fourth one you posted (Ghirlandaio's Lucrezia Sommaria) is on a magnet on my fridge, right next to the computer, and I didn't even think of it! I think it would make such a lovely, simple gown for fair (lightweight wool or linen for the sleeves, black velvet or velveteen for the gown...).
But your "Unknown 3," six down the list, is a STUNNER! I've not seen that one before.
Quote from: gem on February 11, 2010, 12:42:58 PM
But your "Unknown 3," six down the list, is a STUNNER! I've not seen that one before.
Isn't it though? The odd thing is that I've seen it - like, the exact same portrait - in a cream or golden version at the Palazzo Spada in Rome. I asked the staff if that one was to be found in any books or postcards, but no. And of course pics were not allowed... At the Norwegian Institute in Rome I spent hours looking for a version of the portrait online, but I only found a tiny version - and the green one! I dunno if anyone has manipulated the cream/golden dress or if two identical portraits in different colours indeed exist. It's a big mystery to me.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/th_florschool1530sspadaroma.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/florschool1530sspadaroma.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/temporary/th_unknown3.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/temporary/unknown3.jpg)
The green version seems to show more of the bodice, so I think we're talking two different versions. But I have no clue where the other one currently hangs. The golden/cream one is from Galleria Spada in Rome.
And LOL about that Sommaria fridge thing! What a coincident!
Quote from: operafantomet on February 10, 2010, 01:46:46 AM
Pink: major yes!!
And actually, the brighter, the better. Don't go for light pastel. The way a colour was rated, was that the more intense the colour was, the more expensive it was. Cheaper textiles was dyed in the dye bat last, and got paler shades. That's not what you want if you go for upper middle class or nobility.
Pink in actual portraits? I'm a sucker for Italian style, so that's mainly the references I have. But enjoy!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/bronzino1543.jpg
(Eleonora di Toledo in a dress, which it is indeed the same, is described as "crimson with gold bands")
(http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/bergamo/moroni1560.jpg)
(again, would probably be considered red for the period eye, but to the modern eye it can be seen as pink as well)
Just as an additional note: I have seen the Moroni portaits in person. While the portrait of the lady is just barely
not red to my eyes,
The gentleman's suit is indeed pepto-bismol pink with silver embroidery. I'm not sure why it looks salmon in most computer scans.
(http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/men/MoroniGentlemanPink.jpg)
The Ladies gown looks more of a mauve to me. But its still pinkish
I can't believe I forgot about this one and I'm making this dress in brown right now.
(http://www.nationalgalleries.org/media_collection/6/NG%201930.jpg)
Oh, my gosh--isn't she beautiful! Dona C, do you have a date/artist on that?
That smock is unreal. And if you look closely (near her armpits) you can see the black kirtle she's wearing under her gown, and it looks like it's almost completely unlaced. How fascinating!
Jean Clouet
Madame de Canaples (Marie d'Assigny, 1502 - 58)
about 1525
There is also this pink tudor-style gown from 1533. I just love this one, it's so feminine and cute.
http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=31796&coll_keywords=bonnet&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=6&coll_sort_order=1&coll_view=0&coll_package=0&coll_start=41 (http://www.mfa.org/collections/search_art.asp?recview=true&id=31796&coll_keywords=bonnet&coll_accession=&coll_name=&coll_artist=&coll_place=&coll_medium=&coll_culture=&coll_classification=&coll_credit=&coll_provenance=&coll_location=&coll_has_images=&coll_on_view=&coll_sort=6&coll_sort_order=1&coll_view=0&coll_package=0&coll_start=41)
Wow. That one's candyfloss pink. There's no saying "eh, it's kind of orangey" or "looks a little red to me." That's PINK.
I would love to see the rest of that gown!
This is our French Ambassador at Bristol's interpretation of Moroni's Gentleman in Pink
(http://www.fairephotography.com/RenFaire.8-5-2007/pictures/picture-23.jpg)
(http://www.allartclassic.com/img/Moroni_MOG022.jpg)
Our French Ambassador is played by Efrain Ayala and he makes his own.
He did a marvelous job on that. :)
Oooooh!! And! And! those sleeves! Want. To. Try. Those. SLEEVES!! Blackwork bands. OK. But are the rest woven with strips if very fine lawn and black cords? Absolutely fabulous!
Oh, very nicely done!
Just one to encompass all the colors:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jubileel/4535340576/
Not only does it have PINK!, there are also some brilliant blues, yellows, reds, and even a bit of the "Renaissance Purple". The painting is from the 15th c but it should give a very good idea of color.
The problem with color over the computer, or even, sometimes, in a book, is that you don't always get the tones of a color. I've seen plenty of dresses and outfits I know are teal from seeing them in the museum come out blue or green on the computer. Teal itself was actually a widely used color. There is also this period in the 15th c in which a ton of manuscripts (prayer books mostly) have ridiculously bring OMG!ORANGE! to the point I seriously believe safety cone orange would be acceptable. You can see a little bit of it here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jubileel/4534780883/
It's a lot brighter than most people believe is possible.
There is a lady at Pennsic that does the most wonderful natural dyeing project ever, every year. She takes her own wool and linen, gets herbs and spices that were available to her persona (14th c Scandinavian, I think), and dyes everything to see what color she can get. As she told me once, hot bubble gum pink is very period. What they would do is dye the linen in saffron which turns it pink. Really. Rather than a bright yellow, the chemical reaction gets a bubble gum pink.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jubileel/3502736500/ <-Her exhibit from a couple of years ago. Lots of variations on violet, green, and yellows. You can also see the various pinks and blues on the other side of the table. :-) Not bad for the 14th c! Imagine what they could get later on with increased trade.
Quote from: gem on April 16, 2010, 03:41:54 PM
Oh, my gosh--isn't she beautiful! Dona C, do you have a date/artist on that?
That smock is unreal. And if you look closely (near her armpits) you can see the black kirtle she's wearing under her gown, and it looks like it's almost completely unlaced. How fascinating!
A little off topic, but I think she's actually wearing
two kirtles. If you look at the band of gold embroidery that appears to be a smock, you can see that the black lines on either side of her neck (jewelry?) go over the embroidery, then under the white strip. Also, if you look near her left underarm you can see where the white strip separates a little from the embroidery. I think the embroidery is part of the smock, then she's wearing a white kirtle
and a black kirtle under her gown.
And to make this post on topic, here's some more pink:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/AnakinsAngel/Costumes/MargaretRoperbyHansHolbeinc1536.jpg)
Margaret Roper (Thomas More's daughter) c. 1536 by Hans Holbein.
Quote from: PrincessSara on April 20, 2010, 07:18:39 PM
A little off topic, but I think she's actually wearing two kirtles. If you look at the band of gold embroidery that appears to be a smock, you can see that the black lines on either side of her neck (jewelry?) go over the embroidery, then under the white strip. Also, if you look near her left underarm you can see where the white strip separates a little from the embroidery. I think the embroidery is part of the smock, then she's wearing a white kirtle and a black kirtle under her gown.
I don't think it's a white kirtle, but probably a breast band. Those were still being used at that time as evidenced here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/jubileel/4535250860/in/set-72157623890187932/
The adulteress has a fallen breast band, her laces all undone, and a sheer chemise on.
Close ups of the painting showing the chemise, partlet, breast band, kirtle, and gown are available at:
http://www.kimiko1.com/research-16th/TudorWomen/1520s/MadamedeCanaplesRArm.html
more pink
(http://www.internetstones.com/image-files/king-philip-iv-of-spain-and-portugal.jpg)
DonaCatalina
Ok you ARE the Portriat Goddess!!!
I am definitely keeping some of these references, I still think pink would not gain approval at one of the faires I visit, but on the other hand, I love testing knowledge!
Quote from: DonaCatalina on April 16, 2010, 01:21:48 PM
I can't believe I forgot about this one and I'm making this dress in brown right now.
(http://www.nationalgalleries.org/media_collection/6/NG%201930.jpg)
I have some fabric that is almost identical to this. To my eye anyway. While this portrait looks like it's close to a terracotta, I imagine, like the others it's truer to a pink in person.
Anyway, I've been waiting for inspiration as to what to make from it. This is lovely. Can't wait to see how your's turns out Dona.
I will add photos later, but I've just returned from a visit to the St. Louis Museum of Art (wonderful place--they have Holbein's Mary Guildford!!), and their medieval and Renaissance galleries had *tons* of paintings with pink, and like others have said: amazingly bright, intense PINK pink! I had heard the colors were much more vibrant in real life, but you just don't really get that until you're standing in front of the original artwork thinking, "Oh, yeah. These people weren't pinkophobes!" LOL
Quote from: gem on May 16, 2010, 09:14:46 PM
I will add photos later, but I've just returned from a visit to the St. Louis Museum of Art (wonderful place--they have Holbein's Mary Guildford!!), and their medieval and Renaissance galleries had *tons* of paintings with pink, and like others have said: amazingly bright, intense PINK pink! I had heard the colors were much more vibrant in real life, but you just don't really get that until you're standing in front of the original artwork thinking, "Oh, yeah. These people weren't pinkophobes!" LOL
I'm so glad to hear that (+ that you had a wonderful time)!
As I wrote in my original post, the intensity of a fabric colour was a direct sign of wealth. The more intense colour, the more expensive. The first fabrics dipped in the colour batch were the fine ones, and when there were little colour left (=pastel) the inexpensive fabrics went in. It wasn't until the middle and late 18th century that pastels gained popularity.
In this context you might think black weren't that special, but it was hard to produce intense black shades which didn't fade. Merchant families often had a wealth to match the nobility, but not their privileges (I.E. the right to wear certain red and purple shades). The deep blacks therefore became a middle class sign of wealth in the late 15th and early 16th century.
I also wrote in my initial post that pink was a variant of red, not a colour in its own right. Basically every dye stuff used to create red could vary from bright pink to deep maroon, depending on what it was mixed with. So the statement "pink isn't period" is incorrect. Pink as a name of a colour might not have been used, but the actual shade was much used, and the brighter, the better. As an example of PIIIINK in period sources, let me introduce you to manneristic art:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/th_salviati.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/salviati.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/th_pontormo.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/pontormo.jpg)
The first one is a deposition scene by Francesco Salviati, ca. 1547-48. The second is the same subject by Jacopo Pontormo's altar pice for the Capponi chapel, ca. 1528. Whereas the reason(s) for using these bright colours isn't solely to flash wealth, it is an example of 16th century people being well aware of (unquestionable) pink colours. Especially that Salviati painting is one collection of intense colours, it stopped me in my track. The second one also has bizarre colours, but it's usually interpreted as trying to copy the colours of the surrounding frecoes.
I will probably never fully understand manneristic art, but God how I love it!
Gem wore her pink corrset this weekend and it was stunning!
Here's the first of my pink pictures from the St. Louis Museum of Art. We couldn't use a flash, so everything looks a little warmer than it did IRL. I've fiddled with it in Photoshop to try to get it to look right, but I'm also posting a comparison from an online image, just in case.
(http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/17480040/387349385.jpg)
Jan Mertens the Younger's "The Marriage of the Virgin"
The thing I remembered being so striking about this picture was the *incredibly bright* yellow "apron-like" garment on the man to the left of Joseph. It's not coming out that vibrantly in my image, but you can see it below in a pic I've nabbed from the web (IMO, mine overall is closer to the original):
(http://www.oceansbridge.com/paintings/museums/stlouismuseum/Jan-Mertens-the-Younger---The-Marriage-of-the-Virgin.jpg)
Either way, you can see that 1.) The artist certainly didn't shy away from pink, and 2.) The pink is pretty darn pink!
Oooh! Found an even better one on Flicker (someone had a better camera than mine! :b)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3010/2421512159_6bf11130e2.jpg (http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3010/2421512159_6bf11130e2.jpg)
Quote from: gem on May 18, 2010, 07:33:02 PM
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/17480040/387349385.jpg
Jan Mertens the Younger's "The Marriage of the Virgin"
The thing I remembered being so striking about this picture was the *incredibly bright* yellow "apron-like" garment on the man to the left of Joseph. It's not coming out that vibrantly in my image, but you can see it below in a pic I've nabbed from the web (IMO, mine overall is closer to the original):
http://www.oceansbridge.com/paintings/museums/stlouismuseum/Jan-Mertens-the-Younger---The-Marriage-of-the-Virgin.jpg
Either way, you can see that 1.) The artist certainly didn't shy away from pink, and 2.) The pink is pretty darn pink!
I agree, the colours appears so much more conventional in that online version than in the in situ pictures. I've found that this is often the case, especially with 16th century art. They had colours, and weren't afraid to use them...
As for the guy to the left, he's wearing a yellow mantle (mantello) with black trim. It is constructed as a big semi circular piece without shoulder area, and could be draped around the body at will. He is simply lifting the left side up in front of his legs, in classical manner. A Roman toga was worn in pretty much the same way, except it was more oval in shape, and one end went all around the body:
http://www.theweebsite.com/earlygarb/images/toga.gif
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2027/2275699070_6f21a7fbee.jpg)
my gown is pink!
time to bump this topic. Multiple pages of documentation of pink.
You want PINK?
Not sure this link has been posted before, but if not... prepare for... PINK! Page 30, 45, 46 and 48 in particular.
http://www.weissgallery.com/catalogue/weiss25years.htm
I'm sorry.. I just wanted to add my two cents here...I still see none of the examples as "Pink" as we know it. Perhaps that is why I can't wrap my head around it. They are more red to me. And yes, I read the post about how there were different types of red and such. But in my head its the "Paint fades over time" theory. *Shrugs*
I just can't wrap my head around it. :/
Quote from: Devangelon on June 13, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
I'm sorry.. I just wanted to add my two cents here...I still see none of the examples as "Pink" as we know it. Perhaps that is why I can't wrap my head around it. They are more red to me. And yes, I read the post about how there were different types of red and such. But in my head its the "Paint fades over time" theory. *Shrugs*
I just can't wrap my head around it. :/
Really? This French Countess looks like she's wearing red to you?
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2027/2275699070_6f21a7fbee.jpg)
And as far as fading, you can read some specifics about fading of oil paints here (http://www.picturerestorationscotland.co.uk/conservation/restoring_oilpaintings.html) that will go a lot further than I can in explaining how a red would not fade to this type of pink. It would turn into a dark dull brownish red.
As for the next one- I have seen it in person and it is a bright non-faded pepto bismol color.
(http://www.allartclassic.com/img/Moroni_MOG022.jpg)
Quote from: Devangelon on June 13, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
I'm sorry.. I just wanted to add my two cents here...I still see none of the examples as "Pink" as we know it. Perhaps that is why I can't wrap my head around it. They are more red to me. And yes, I read the post about how there were different types of red and such. But in my head its the "Paint fades over time" theory. *Shrugs*
I just can't wrap my head around it. :/
I'm starting to think it might be your monitor and the way it displays colours. Cause as well as the ones DonaCatilina posted, these are pink allright:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/th_ghirlandaio1490.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze1/ghirlandaio1490.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/th_bronzino1543eleonoraprague.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/firenze2/bronzino1543eleonoraprague.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/parma/th_bedoli1560ssotherbys.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/parma/bedoli1560ssotherbys.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/cremona/th_moronioranguissola1560s.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/cremona/moronioranguissola1560s.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/th_veronese1570snewer.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/veronese1570snewer.jpg)(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/th_robusti1600courtesan.jpg) (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/robusti1600courtesan.jpg)
Hot pinks can be more difficult to separate from bright reds, though. Where do pink end and red start? And what about salmon shades? Even in modern garb it can be hard to separate. But if the portraits above don't correspond to "pink as we know it", could you link to some modern garbs in pink? Just so I see what you mean?
Also, one of the portraits in the link in my previous entry... I don't manage to see it as any other colour than pink. Hot pink!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/pink.png)
Quote from: Devangelon on June 13, 2011, 01:31:38 PM
I'm sorry.. I just wanted to add my two cents here...I still see none of the examples as "Pink" as we know it. Perhaps that is why I can't wrap my head around it. They are more red to me. And yes, I read the post about how there were different types of red and such. But in my head its the "Paint fades over time" theory. *Shrugs*
I just can't wrap my head around it. :/
http://www.renaissancefestival.com/forums/index.php?topic=15207.0
Linking since there is more pink discussion over there.
Is there a reason you are having trouble with the pink/red thing?
Here is a painting from 1495 with Salmon pink and red right next to each other (http://1ucroa.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pYqT9SC1VtYEw3OQA934EAZF0fLym9E9agA-dC9_PcTnyYIB4mPrYAzUX-qvUrh07EIZ0ywFo2yrxCMdGWj-rYw/Encuentro%20de%20%C3%9Arsula%20y%20Ereo-1-Vittore%20Carpaccio.jpg?psid=1) I prefer posting ones where pink and red are shown together to remove any doubt of this "faded" theory. I really don't get why this Renn Fairism is still around other than some now it all that never once cracked open a painting book or played with dyes declared it and everyone believed it.
I showed in the previous thread that pink and red have existed in harmony from at least the 1100s and I could easily go back to Ancient Egypt (I saw some of those in person and talk about VIBRANT!). However, being as this is a Renaissance thread, I think some illuminations (which are less subject to fading since they are typically in a book and not hanging on a wall):
http://www.wga.hu/art/g/girolamo/cremona/pentecos.jpg (http://www.wga.hu/art/g/girolamo/cremona/pentecos.jpg) There are some lovely burgundies and pinks in this Pentecost illumination from the 1460s
http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1501-550/2misc/04b_1500.jpg (http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1501-550/2misc/04b_1500.jpg) This one has orangy reds, pinks, and a brick red border. It's from about 1500
http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/2netherl/13n_1450.jpg (http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/2netherl/13n_1450.jpg) Pink flowers and red strawberries!
http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/2netherl/14n_1450.jpg (http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/2netherl/14n_1450.jpg) Red, wine, pink all in this illumination from about the 1450s.
http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/21griman/04months.jpg (http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/21griman/04months.jpg) The month of April from about 1490, showing pink, red, and a few hundred other gorgeous colors.
http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/21griman/08months.jpg (http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/21griman/08months.jpg) The month of August. If you look at the guy to the far most right, you'll see he has a pink hood and is wearing a red hat!
So, no, it's not just fading. It's very clearly a true color and always has been. I can easily add more or I can even point out paintings, or other time periods. Honestly, I just want to be very clear and kill this ridiculous renn fair myth that pink didn't exist.
Alright, fine. I'll take that its historically accurate. But I'm not sure I could ever feel good about making a pink dress for faire.
Now, I have an interesting question..
We've all heard the "Purple is for Royalty only" rule. And I know how the dye was made (Fermenting sea snails) but did any royals actually wear it in the renaissance? I ask because there was a visiting kingdom at one of my faires this year. Well, not visiting, but they had new garb. And it was purple and gold. And I'm not saying a nice plum. But PURPLE. Like..Minnesota Vikings purple. Was that period and if so, are there any portraits of it?
Ah, another can of worms. :D
Purple for Royalty is a fair-ism also. Because we are trained from childhood that it is so. However it is based on a truth, in that it was Very expensive to create the crimson/purple, so only the very wealthy could afford it. Also, sumptuary laws would create more stress on the person wanting to wear it, as there was a "fine".
With that being said, it is not difficult to create a lavender, or other pale "purple", from natural ingredients.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69B7DWEKANY Here is an example of how it was made. Plus it's a great show.
Quote from: Devangelon on June 15, 2011, 07:00:31 AM
Alright, fine. I'll take that its historically accurate. But I'm not sure I could ever feel good about making a pink dress for faire.
That's two different discussions, though. ;) I understand it's hard to get used to the thought when faires has always taught us that pink is not period. But both written and pictorial sources contradicts it.
Quote from: Devangelon on June 15, 2011, 07:00:31 AM
We've all heard the "Purple is for Royalty only" rule. And I know how the dye was made (Fermenting sea snails) but did any royals actually wear it in the renaissance? I ask because there was a visiting kingdom at one of my faires this year. Well, not visiting, but they had new garb. And it was purple and gold. And I'm not saying a nice plum. But PURPLE. Like..Minnesota Vikings purple. Was that period and if so, are there any portraits of it?
The jury is still out on that one... Ha-ha! Again it comes down to the dye used. Fabrics mostly got their colour name from the dye used, and not from what colour people saw. Red was not limited to nobility in 1560s Florence, for example, but crimson was. Crimson was an expensive red dye, and because of this it was limited to the nobility. All who could afford it wore red, but only the very upper class wore crimson red. See the difference?
To some degree the same applies for purple shades. However, the purple shades are hard to produce, a lot harder than red shades, and was even more expensive than crimson. From Byzantine time porfyra (=purple) had been used by emperors and popes, and it remained expensive until the synthetic dyes were invented in the mid 19th century. Then the use of PURPLE and other bright colours exploded. From pictoral sources the Byzantine purple is a bit more red in appearance than the modern equivalent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Justinian.jpg
But the Renaissance artist Botticelli has depicted a man in what I consider "modern purple" (I.E. more blue) in one of his illustrations of Dante's "Divina Commedia". It's the same man repeated, as he and Dante moves around in Inferno to see the punishments of "panderers and seducers and flatterers". I think he is to represent Virgil, but his purple cloak and tall hat is very un-Roman. Probably some symbolism I'm not getting there.
http://www.lib-art.com/imgpainting/8/7/7478-inferno-canto-xviii-sandro-botticelli.jpg
So purple did indeed exist in both its modern version and a more antique version. And as you suggest, it was reserved for the richest of the richest. Which I'm sure Gloriana would consider herself!
Here's more on the discussion of purple, which has been quite active at this board previously:
http://www.renaissancefestival.com/forums/index.php?topic=3773.0
Purple is interesting because, what we call purple and what they called purple are two different things. We mix up Violet and Purple all the time and no one seems to notice. You wouldn't have done that in the Middle Ages/Renaissance. Their purple was the color of blood as it's drying because -well- that's what it was! We'd consider a maroon or a darkish red with a hint of purple -not a true purple (to us).
Violet was made using good old red and blue dyes together. One of the problems with the internet is that many of the paintings that do have violet in them (or even lavendar or any other shade of purple) come out as black or brown on monitors. There are colors in the museums that just look funny on the computer.
That being said, yes, there certainly was purple/violet. People did wear it. The "royal purple" was restricted more so in England than elsewhere. However, as Syrilla said, just pay the fine if you wear it.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3556/3502736500_f5797a7144_m.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jubileel/3502736500/)
In this picture you can see several linen and wool threads dyed purple using methods and materials in the 12th -14th centuries. One right of center.
Some illuminations showing what we think of as purple:
http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1451-500/5other/01a_1454.jpg - The priest with Mary and Jesus is wearing lavender and gold
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Les_Tr%C3%A8s_Riches_Heures_du_duc_de_Berry_septembre.jpg - the lady that looks like she is wearing gray is actually wearing the same color as the grapes she's putting into a basket. There is also the lady with the mulberry hood that is a neat mix of red and purple and almost matches the grapes.
http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1401-450/2italian/01i_1400.jpg -> Although the lady on the right looks like she is wearing gray, it's probably really a lovely lavender.
http://www.wga.hu/art/zgothic/miniatur/1401-450/2italian/03i_1400.jpg -> The gentleman in the tower has a lavender cloak on.
And, for extant garments:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/workbox/extcam1.htm
Having not completely read through this thread, and not looking to ruffle any feathers, I'll just throw my 2 cents in...
Who the heck cares if its HA or not besides the garb nazis who will snub your garb anyways? ;) If you like it, do it!!
Pink is my favorite color, and I just commissioned a new irish dress for faire in a beautiful raspberry color fabric! Is it HA? Absolutely not, but I could care less!! I like it, and will feel good wearing it!! Its all about the fun!
Cheers!! and back to your regularly scheduled sewing discussion!!
;D
*Hey Sitara, you want to sing your "I hate pink" song for them?* LOL! :-*
Quote from: Muffin on June 15, 2011, 09:34:15 AM
Having not completely read through this thread, and not looking to ruffle any feathers, I'll just throw my 2 cents in...
Who the heck cares if its HA or not besides the garb nazis who will snub your garb anyways? ;) If you like it, do it!!
The problem with this mentality is we get the chain mail bikini being worn by someone who I am sure is older than my mother and weighs about 50 pounds more than myself. Also, "nazis" killed millions of people - I have yet to hear of the fashion police in this country doing the same. Choose words carefully.
Its just a figure of speech, and a common one at that when referring to garb "snubbers".. Sorry that it offended you.. I will refrain from using said term in your presence.
I've seen the chainmail bikinis and such, and still say who cares.. It's not hurting anyone, and if they look in the mirror and say "GD I look good" then so be it.. They chose to wear it, and do not need anyones permission nor should they worry about who they are impressing or not impressing so to speak. Do I think they look ridiculous and should make other choices, probably, but still, who is it hurting? In my opinion, faire is supposed to be about having fun, and if that enhances thier fun, well then Hooray!
Again, wasn't looking to offend, just stating what I thought about wearing pink at faire.. 8)
moving on....
Quote from: Muffin on June 15, 2011, 09:34:15 AM
Having not completely read through this thread, and not looking to ruffle any feathers, I'll just throw my 2 cents in...
Who the heck cares if its HA or not besides the garb nazis who will snub your garb anyways? ;) If you like it, do it!!
Pink is my favorite color, and I just commissioned a new irish dress for faire in a beautiful raspberry color fabric! Is it HA? Absolutely not, but I could care less!! I like it, and will feel good wearing it!! Its all about the fun!
Cheers!! and back to your regularly scheduled sewing discussion!!
;D
*Hey Sitara, you want to sing your "I hate pink" song for them?* LOL! :-*
I LOVE this comment! When people say I'm not historically accurate my general response is 'Your face isn't historically accurate." Childish? Maybe. Fun? HECK yes.
Quote from: Kate on June 15, 2011, 12:27:54 PM
Quote from: Muffin on June 15, 2011, 09:34:15 AM
Having not completely read through this thread, and not looking to ruffle any feathers, I'll just throw my 2 cents in...
Who the heck cares if its HA or not besides the garb nazis who will snub your garb anyways? ;) If you like it, do it!!
Pink is my favorite color, and I just commissioned a new irish dress for faire in a beautiful raspberry color fabric! Is it HA? Absolutely not, but I could care less!! I like it, and will feel good wearing it!! Its all about the fun!
Cheers!! and back to your regularly scheduled sewing discussion!!
;D
*Hey Sitara, you want to sing your "I hate pink" song for them?* LOL! :-*
I LOVE this comment! When people say I'm not historically accurate my general response is 'Your face isn't historically accurate." Childish? Maybe. Fun? HECK yes.
:D
The whole point of this thread was to dispel the myth that Pink was not historically accurate.
There are some people who are expected to meet a reasonable degree of accuracy such as cast and the like. This is their ammunition if they choose to use pink in their garb.
Quote from: Muffin on June 15, 2011, 09:34:15 AM
Pink is my favorite color, and I just commissioned a new irish dress for faire in a beautiful raspberry color fabric! Is it HA? Absolutely not, but I could care less!!
Why would it not be historically accurate? Because Irish women didn't wear raspberry red? Or because the Irish dress is not historically accurate? Cause the colour itself existed.
ETA: how COULD I forget one of my favourite pink ladies, from the Villa Foscari on mainland Venice! She's super funky.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/zelotti1560sfoscari.jpg)
No, because it is being sewn on a modern sewing machine, and I am quite sure the pattern is not HA... ;)
but it's pretty!!! ;D
Back to our regular sewing discussion...
I love these gorgeous medieval dresses; but you have to have one of those willowy figures to look good in them.
Both red and pink clothing pictured for contrast.
(http://arttattler.com/Images/NorthAmerica/NewYork/MetropolitanMuseumofArt/Art%20and%20Love/25b.--Chaste-Women-in-a-Landscape.jpg)
Some more pink!
http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7016634.JPG
http://www.themorgan.org/collections/collections.asp?id=97 <- Lovely early Tudor lady in a very petal pink gown standing next to a red curtain
http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/kurzweil/mai4.htm <- Pink German gown!
Fasolo family portrait
The woman's gown appears to be a red pattern on a pink background.
(http://www.dazeoflaur.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/Picture-3.png)
This might not be the best scan, but in a book I have about Veronese the dress appears to be all red. Red with a hint of raspberry. She wears a wonderful redworked camicia too.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/veronese1558familysanfrancisco.jpg)
"Portrait of a family from the Veneto", ca. 1558, Paolo Veronese (Palace of the Legion of Honor, San Francisco)
Here is a favorite of mine
(http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/bilder/templedeLyon.jpg)
Cilean
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Nicolas_de_Neufch%C3%A2tel_-_Portrait_of_a_Young_Lady_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg/448px-Nicolas_de_Neufch%C3%A2tel_-_Portrait_of_a_Young_Lady_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg)
Quote from: Cilean on October 05, 2011, 02:35:28 AM
Here is a favorite of mine
http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/bilder/templedeLyon.jpg
Cilean
Eva Andersson's wonderful period recreation of that pink dress should be added as well:
http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/TempledeLyon.html
Quote from: DonaCatalina on November 03, 2012, 12:30:54 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/44/Nicolas_de_Neufch%C3%A2tel_-_Portrait_of_a_Young_Lady_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg/448px-Nicolas_de_Neufch%C3%A2tel_-_Portrait_of_a_Young_Lady_-_Google_Art_Project.jpg)
OMG!!! I *wants* that dress!!! The embroidery on the brustfleck is STUNNING!!!
(http://media-cache-ec2.pinimg.com/550x/88/28/90/882890b6d354a41221a1d94fbc5d2d2c.jpg)
Giovanni Battista Moroni (Late Italian Renaissance painter, c 1520–1578) Portrait of a Woman
Isn't she all kinds of pretty!
I often think Moroni must have gotten a cut-rate deal on pink paint; he used SO MUCH of it! LOL
Here's another of his (which could just as easily go in the Partlet thread):
(http://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/212856/1/Portrait-Of-A-Lady.jpg)