Someone at Scarborough recently told His Lordship that his loop over the belt pouch was not accurate to 1533.
Pouch Research resource (http://www.larsdatter.com/pouches.htm)
The one his lordship wears is similar to this one, without so much metalwork.
Detail from The Crucifixion, c. 1420-1430
(http://tarvos.imareal.oeaw.ac.at/server/images/7001066.JPG)
So while some of the more modern pouches with fake eyeballs and such are not period; the basic leather pouches for sale at most Faires would not look out of place in 1533.
(http://historyshop.piratemerch.com/images/200350_Leather_pouch.jpg)
Thanks for the links! I really like the pouch in the painting.
My mind boggles that someone said that to your husband...
Wow, that is a bit much lol! Ah well, to each their own, yes?
Quote from: DonaCatalina on June 04, 2010, 03:15:58 PM
So while some of the more modern pouches with fake eyeballs and such are not period;
FWIW, we don't claim that they are. ;)
As for the claimant at Scarborough, do you have any more detail on the reasoning behind it? What was the belief? That they exclusively used drawstring pouches carried in their hands? No pouches at all? This one baffles me.
Yes they claimed that hand carried drawstring pouches were the only period ones.
How funny, I was just pondering that question yesterday. I may try hand at a new pouch of my own. When I get back. :)
Quote from: DonaCatalina on July 27, 2010, 06:10:54 AM
Yes they claimed that hand carried drawstring pouches were the only period ones.
Hand carried only? Seems kind of inconvenient, especially when there is a handy belt to hang a pouch from, LOL. ;D
Sadly you will run into people like that from time to time. We had a vendor at a faire chastise my wife for wearing pink because "pink isn't period". LOL!!! And when we tried to politely explain to him that pink was indeed period, he scoffed at us like we were idiots or something. Obviously he wasn't very well informed or was sadly misinformed. Oh well.
Quote from: Master James on July 27, 2010, 10:57:27 AM
Sadly you will run into people like that from time to time. We had a vendor at a faire chastise my wife for wearing pink because "pink isn't period". LOL!!! And when we tried to politely explain to him that pink was indeed period, he scoffed at us like we were idiots or something. Obviously he wasn't very well informed or was sadly misinformed. Oh well.
Yes, that is exactly why I started this thread so that people on this forum would be forewarned about issues like that.
http://www.larsdatter.com/pouches.htm
I *adore* the larsdatter site and here's a long list to point this individual next time.
Quote from: Master James on July 27, 2010, 10:57:27 AM
Sadly you will run into people like that from time to time. We had a vendor at a faire chastise my wife for wearing pink because "pink isn't period". LOL!!! And when we tried to politely explain to him that pink was indeed period, he scoffed at us like we were idiots or something. Obviously he wasn't very well informed or was sadly misinformed. Oh well.
??? Those people really exist? Have they never stepped into an art museum? How do they explain colors like this http://www.flickr.com/photos/jubileel/4534702389/in/set-72157623890187932/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jubileel/4534702389/in/set-72157623890187932/) where there is red hosen, a red halo, and a very lovely pink tunic?
Being that hidden pockets did not come into play to well into the 17th century, wearing pouches that were on straps of some kind or hung from belts, made a lot of sense.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on July 27, 2010, 11:17:56 AM
http://www.larsdatter.com/pouches.htm
I *adore* the larsdatter site and here's a long list to point this individual next time.
That site is amazing! I am very happy to see that so many of the bags are in the 'double scallop' style, as I picked one up at Sherwood this past year (lol alternatively called the 'bollucks' bag or the 'boobs' bag by drunken friends)
As far as things that are period that people argue- while I do little HA anymore, I still know what's up! Ive thought of getting small pictures of 'questionable' items just to prove that yes, they DID exist...
Mom pickled beets last night.. I don't think anyone who has ever seen pickled beets can tell me that someone wouldn't look at those and say... hmmm that is a rather lovely pink color... and very rich...
Quote from: gypsylakat on July 27, 2010, 10:48:09 PM
Mom pickled beets last night.. I don't think anyone who has ever seen pickled beets can tell me that someone wouldn't look at those and say... hmmm that is a rather lovely pink color... and very rich...
Most certainly not anyone who had splashed a bit of the juice on their nice white chemise...
Pink if I'm remembering correctly was considered merely a shade of red back then. It was considered to be "light red" not pink. I'm not sure when it changed, but technically speaking pink is just a light shade of red. I'm not positive on the details anymore. Regardless, no one can argue that red isn't accurate.
or, for that matter, that red fabrics never faded!
Quote from: ArielCallista on July 28, 2010, 04:09:29 PM
Pink if I'm remembering correctly was considered merely a shade of red back then. It was considered to be "light red" not pink. I'm not sure when it changed, but technically speaking pink is just a light shade of red. I'm not positive on the details anymore. Regardless, no one can argue that red isn't accurate.
Light what? (http://www-ah.st-andrews.ac.uk/staff/covers/giovanni.jpg) ;D
List of Elizabethan colors (http://www.elizabethancostume.net/lizcolor.html) and pink is one of them...
I swear, Moroni must have bought pink paint by the bucketfull! ;D His portraits (http://www.google.com/images?q=giovanni%20moroni%20portrait&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1260&bih=772) are full of people--men, especially--in pink. Clearly it was a "hot" color during his career!
That is silliness. There are examples of belt pouches, handbags, and other devices in which to put items of many varations going back to antiquity that are not simple pouches tied with a string.
Most artists of the various periods mixed their own paints from powdered pigments, and if they could get them then certainly weavers could, as well...
If someone starts giving you guff about your pouches, color of your garb or anything else that makes you feel good, use my favorite response. When you give up your glasses, medications, ashma inhaler, chocolate, and cola I will give up *insert item in question here*. If I wanted to answer to the garb nazi's I would hang out with the SCAdian wanna-be's. A true SCAdian would complament your effort and if asked offer idea's to improve your garb.
Quote from: dragongirl on July 29, 2010, 03:29:33 AM
If someone starts giving you guff about your pouches, color of your garb or anything else that makes you feel good, use my favorite response. When you give up your glasses, medications, ashma inhaler, chocolate, and cola I will give up *insert item in question here*. If I wanted to answer to the garb nazi's I would hang out with the SCAdian wanna-be's. A true SCAdian would complament your effort and if asked offer idea's to improve your garb.
One of the joys of being Spanish is access to chocolate, albeit a more dark version than most people recognize. ;)
Hot chocolate is perfectly period in England as well. There is some evidence (a recipe from 1612) that they even added things like vanilla extract and honey to the drink as well.
I can't drink regular coca-cola (corn syrup!) anymore.
Glasses, again, are perfectly period. The Italians even had tinted green or blue glasses for the glare. Now, they didn't have sides to them but they did have ribbons so they could be attached to the ears.
Medications are also period. I was reading an interesting article on how it was known in Northern Europe since the 13th c that the bread with the blue mold was useful for helping with certain illnesses. That blue mold later became known as penicillin.
So uh, yeah. Also calling anyone a nazi who hasn't killed 11 million people and isn't dragging you off to the gas chamber isn't appropriate, ever. If someone says "Why do you have that? It ruins your outfit!" just either, a) ignore them or b) given them a calm, cool explanation. Don't stoop to their level because by giving a response like that not only can you be wrong (as shown above!) but they'll just think you are a jerk (half the time, you might hear something wrong or someone might not mean it as cruelly as you take it to be) and all you have really done is miss an opportunity to educate them.
I did hear a conversation at fair last year-
Paytron "That is not correct to your character"
other Cast member "Its my annoying magnet and look it worked here you are."
I almost droppped the red tailed hawk i was carrying
Quote from: isabelladangelo on July 29, 2010, 08:03:45 AM
Glasses, again, are perfectly period. The Italians even had tinted green or blue glasses for the glare. Now, they didn't have sides to them but they did have ribbons so they could be attached to the ears.
That reminds me. Is there an eye wear provider somewhere that can make prescription glasses like those? Many people cannot wear contacts, and I know some folks who would not mind spending the money to look a little more HA.
As for sunglasses-Nobbies has gold wire rimmed, round John Lennon type sun glasses in red, yellow, blue and green starting at $4.99. The wire rimmed sides could be removed and ribbons attached. I will be getting a couple pair to wear with garb now. Thanks for the hint!
I know there is some place that does make vintage reading glasses. IE gold rimmed with a place for a chain/ribbion. Some of the historical re-enactors at a local historical landmark had them. They had to find a optical tech who would be willing to put the lenses in them. Depending on how thick the lenses are will depend on if they would work with the frames.
I have found that it all depends on how much effort you are willing to put into it.
I actually was told that they loved the Pink Pirate's outfit but sadly they didn't think it was THAT historically accurate. Before I could say anything a vendor spoke up and said "Actually, of all of you standing here, he is the most accurate. He is a pirate on shore leave. Of course he is going to pull out his finery. Also it is either a sign he is a "whoopsie" or he is a "Bad weed puller" that he can pull off the pink. Personally I would not want to take my chances that he is the second type." The person who said it turned bright red and walked off. The comment made my day. :)
Quote from: Rowen MacD on August 11, 2010, 09:18:13 AM
Quote from: isabelladangelo on July 29, 2010, 08:03:45 AM
Glasses, again, are perfectly period. The Italians even had tinted green or blue glasses for the glare. Now, they didn't have sides to them but they did have ribbons so they could be attached to the ears.
That reminds me. Is there an eye wear provider somewhere that can make prescription glasses like those? Many people cannot wear contacts, and I know some folks who would not mind spending the money to look a little more HA.
As for sunglasses-Nobbies has gold wire rimmed, round John Lennon type sun glasses in red, yellow, blue and green starting at $4.99. The wire rimmed sides could be removed and ribbons attached. I will be getting a couple pair to wear with garb now. Thanks for the hint!
Look for Civil War reenactor sutlers. You can order "period" frames and have prescription lenses put it.
Quote from: DonaCatalina on July 27, 2010, 06:10:54 AM
Yes they claimed that hand carried drawstring pouches were the only period ones.
I have to wonder, then, where the term "cutpurse" came from. ::)
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on July 28, 2010, 09:57:34 PM
Most artists of the various periods mixed their own paints from powdered pigments, and if they could get them then certainly weavers could, as well...
That's not
entirely accurate. The process of painting on canvas is very different from the process of dying fabric. Different mordants are used on the dyes, and different mordants used on the same dye can produce varying results. The pigment types are different as well, from what I can gather. (I honestly don't know all the details- I hang out with weavers and cloth makers, and I know that this was a discussion at which I was a fly on the wall!)
Quote from: dragongirl on July 29, 2010, 03:29:33 AM
If someone starts giving you guff about your pouches, color of your garb or anything else that makes you feel good, use my favorite response. When you give up your glasses, medications, ashma inhaler, chocolate, and cola I will give up *insert item in question here*. If I wanted to answer to the garb nazi's I would hang out with the SCAdian wanna-be's. A true SCAdian would complament your effort and if asked offer idea's to improve your garb.
Darn right! I never thought of myself as a SCAdian, since I don't belong to the SCA, but that's the attitude that I've always taken. I actually had a discussion with a gentleman in a great kilt once about this subject. I liked the tartan and asked him about it. He had no idea what it was since it was borrowed. And then he asked me what I thought of his outfit... I told him that the kilt should not wrap around him 5 times, and should be pleated. He asked if I knew how, so I had him take it off, and I pleated and wrapped it right there at the jousting field. I'm not Garb Police, but if asked...
Quote from: Rowen MacD on August 11, 2010, 09:18:13 AM
That reminds me. Is there an eye wear provider somewhere that can make prescription glasses like those? Many people cannot wear contacts, and I know some folks who would not mind spending the money to look a little more HA.
As for sunglasses-Nobbies has gold wire rimmed, round John Lennon type sun glasses in red, yellow, blue and green starting at $4.99. The wire rimmed sides could be removed and ribbons attached. I will be getting a couple pair to wear with garb now. Thanks for the hint!
These could be useful. Just take off the sides. Or in truth, they look primitive enough as is!
http://jas-townsend.com/index.php?cPath=7&osCsid=00ef02fe505368c3093183ca9c95a581
Quote from: Nighthawk on August 11, 2010, 11:00:44 AM
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on July 28, 2010, 09:57:34 PM
Most artists of the various periods mixed their own paints from powdered pigments, and if they could get them then certainly weavers could, as well...
That's not entirely accurate. The process of painting on canvas is very different from the process of dying fabric. Different mordants are used on the dyes, and different mordants used on the same dye can produce varying results. The pigment types are different as well, from what I can gather. (I honestly don't know all the details- I hang out with weavers and cloth makers, and I know that this was a discussion at which I was a fly on the wall!)
My point was simply that painters were not the only ones who knew the various processes and materials used for achieving specific color results, and if a color or effect could be achieved in one way, then someone else, somewhere, would most certainly figure out a way to achieve it in a manner that enhanced their own particular craft, as well. Your pardon, please... I should have been more clear.
Whatever the case, we wear pouches on our belts so our hands can be free for other things.....like strangling idiots.
It's also a case of keep your money close to your body, pickpockets abound even back then!
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y287/RumbaRue/Pirateship.gif)
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on August 11, 2010, 11:50:02 AM
Quote from: Nighthawk on August 11, 2010, 11:00:44 AM
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on July 28, 2010, 09:57:34 PM
Most artists of the various periods mixed their own paints from powdered pigments, and if they could get them then certainly weavers could, as well...
That's not entirely accurate. The process of painting on canvas is very different from the process of dying fabric. Different mordants are used on the dyes, and different mordants used on the same dye can produce varying results. The pigment types are different as well, from what I can gather. (I honestly don't know all the details- I hang out with weavers and cloth makers, and I know that this was a discussion at which I was a fly on the wall!)
My point was simply that painters were not the only ones who knew the various processes and materials used for achieving specific color results, and if a color or effect could be achieved in one way, then someone else, somewhere, would most certainly figure out a way to achieve it in a manner that enhanced their own particular craft, as well. Your pardon, please... I should have been more clear.
Oh, oh! Gotcha! Of course. And I sometimes am too literal! :D
No worries, Nighthawk! It varies for me, day to day... LOL Sometimes it's the letter of the law, and sometimes it's the spirit of the law... although far too often these days I seem to want to be the OUTlaw! ::) :D
Rue, I agree! Why would anyone walk around all day, every day, carrying a pouch in their hand when they could hang it from a perfectly sturdy, serviceable belt?!?
Quote from: Nighthawk on August 11, 2010, 11:00:44 AM
These could be useful. Just take off the sides. Or in truth, they look primitive enough as is!
http://jas-townsend.com/index.php?cPath=7&osCsid=00ef02fe505368c3093183ca9c95a581
Sweet. Thanks ;D
Quote from: Rowen MacD on August 11, 2010, 03:00:31 PM
Sweet. Thanks ;D
My pleasure. Those guys have made small fortune off of me. All of my clothing that is not tartan is made from the cloths that they sell- they're excellent replicas of period fabrics! And the customer service from Townsend is unbeatable. Oh, and watch some of their tutorials. If you like Bruce Campbell movies, you'll love these guys! They ham it up as much as possible!
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on August 11, 2010, 02:44:29 PM
No worries, Nighthawk! It varies for me, day to day... LOL Sometimes it's the letter of the law, and sometimes it's the spirit of the law... although far too often these days I seem to want to be the OUTlaw! ::) :D
Rue, I agree! Why would anyone walk around all day, every day, carrying a pouch in their hand when they could hang it from a perfectly sturdy, serviceable belt?!?
And there lies one of the great things about being a Scottish reenactor! NO ONE can tell me that a sporran isn't accurate! 8)
I've never had anyone say anything to me about not being period accurate, but I haven't been to quite as many Faire's as some here have, and I'm not involved in any organizations that require that sort of accuracy, so I don't really worry about it. I honestly don't know what I would say if I was accosted that manner, but I like to imagine I would simply laugh... and walk away. :D
I realllllly dislike garb Nazis. Period smeriod.. If it works for you then you should be able to wear it with out some snooty person offering unsolicited critique. If pouches were only held in ones hand where did the term "cut purse" come from? A thief certainly could not cut the pouch while it was being held.
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on August 12, 2010, 01:06:24 AM
I've never had anyone say anything to me about not being period accurate, but I haven't been to quite as many Faire's as some here have, and I'm not involved in any organizations that require that sort of accuracy, so I don't really worry about it. I honestly don't know what I would say if I was accosted that manner, but I like to imagine I would simply laugh... and walk away. :D
Well, I just smiled. But I started this thread so other people would be forewarned.... and forarmed.
I love all the painting references, DonaC! I particularly love the museum pieces, though, and I wish there were diagrams of just how some of those pieces were made, because I'd love to try reproducing some of them (well, rough approximations, anyway)! I poured over those links for a few hours... ::) heheh
Quote from: Lady Kathleen of Olmsted on July 27, 2010, 11:44:54 AM
Being that hidden pockets did not come into play to well into the 17th century, wearing pouches that were on straps of some kind or hung from belts, made a lot of sense.
Do you mean loose pockets hidden under the clothes, or modern pockets? The latter is actually a variant of the former, biggest difference being that the slit of the pocket is now attached to the slit of the garb. Earlier they were separate items, and therefore the pocket was attached to a belt/string.
For women I've found proofs of loose pockets from the mid 16th century, possibly earlier. Eleonora di Toledo's funeral dress shows a pocket which was probably sewn to the skirt. I've written a bit about the topic here:
http://aneafiles.webs.com/saccoccia.html
I know http://peteyfrogboy.livejournal.com/ has also done some research on renaissance pockets, but for men. He has focused on the ones hanging from the belt, but I think he's found an example of both. Alas this was the only entry I could find about it right now:
http://peteyfrogboy.livejournal.com/101065.html
Ummm... if a garb snark has the temerity to try and lift my skirt to see if my pockets are attached then they will be in for a rather sudden (and quite possibly painful) lesson in manners!!! :o :D
Sorry, but the image that popped into my head with that was just too humorous to keep to myself!
Sooo... this thread, and all the wonderful links attached to it, made me really want to make some pouches! I have lots of beautiful fabrics, but I noticed most of the paintings seemed to depict leather pouches, and since I just happen to have a whole side of the most gorgeous chocolate brown vat dyed top grain leather... Well, you can imagine my dilemma in deciding which one to attempt first! Since the leather is fairly thin, only about 3-3.5 ounce weight, I decided to try something fairly simple, and relatively shapeless, first. This is probably not the place to be showing it off, but I just couldn't resist... ::) I'll be cross-posting it to the Crafting forum, as well.
My first attempt...
Closed:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs027.snc4/33702_1537434088184_1604843044_31300534_6515936_n.jpg)
Open:
(http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs818.snc4/69811_1537426447993_1604843044_31300525_1705334_n.jpg)
It really does hold the cell phone, large bunch of keys and the lipstick case that I used for the money.
Then this period correct garb Nazi will go absolutely bonkers when he sees the pouches that I make for sale at faires. I pick ladies purses at flea markets, yard sales and thrift stores. Usually any of the ones that have a fold over flap instead of a zipper in the front. Make a couple of belt loops and up for sale. I especially like the fur ones. The scots usually scarf those up. It must be that sheep thing. (smile)
The BLAKDUKE
I can't claim to know the history of pouches, but I am good with making things for practical application. For example, when I was new to renfaires I made myself a drawstring pouch that I would tie to my belt by the draw string. The cord broke from the friction of having to constantly be tied and untied from my belt each time I needed to get into it and always swinging at my side. it almost goes without saying how annoying it became having to untie it from my belt each time I wanted to open the pouch.
I think it was after the second weekend with that pouch that I took a scrap of leather left over from making belts and added a belt loop to the pouch. haven't had a single issue with that pouch since.
Anyone would have a very hard time convincing me that someone 500 years ago frustrated with the same problem wouldn't have had the ability to come up with a similar easy fix.
Quote from: DonaCatalina on June 04, 2010, 03:15:58 PM
Someone at Scarborough recently told His Lordship that his loop over the belt pouch was not accurate to 1533.
Going back to this initial post. Ya know, what he was told it totally bovine poopie. I've seen surviving examples and depictions from both Italy and Germany from the 15th century where men wears pouches attached to their belt. Like in the Larsdatter site you linked to, there's several examples there. http://www.larsdatter.com/pouches.htm
And also here:
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/b/botticel/91late/132nativi.html
What I dislike about certain faires and SCA events is that some people get an idea in their head and they want everyone else to live by it. Nevermind that it's historically incorrect...
ETA: In this link you can even see examples of a period man's shoulder bag!
http://peteyfrogboy.livejournal.com/65044.html
I wear a blue thrum cap. From my research, I have found that they were quite common for mariners during that time period. Anyway, this past season, someone was complaining to me about my headgear; not that it was a thrum cap, but that it was BLUE! I told them that blue and brown were some of the most easily obtainable colors during the period, and therefore, marked me as being "common".
*She and her escort were sitting dressed in mundane clothing as the conversation was going on.
"What I dislike about certain faires and SCA events is that some people get an idea in their head and they want everyone else to live by it. Nevermind that it's historically incorrect... "
This is a possibility. However there are others. 1. They know what they know and don't confuse them with facts. 2. They are so conceited that they cannot conceive that someone knows more than they do, whether they are right or wrong does not work it's way into their brain pans. Lastly and I am somewhat ashamed to admit it, they could be suffering from Hollywood mis-information. They may have watched to many movies as a child and figured that 'surely hollywood would not put something in a movie that was not accurate. Such was my mind frame as a youth and it was not until I was fully immersed into the renne culture that I found out how wrong I was on so many things and then strove to rectify my ignorance.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on July 28, 2010, 05:39:31 PM
List of Elizabethan colors (http://www.elizabethancostume.net/lizcolor.html) and pink is one of them...
Haha, Puke is listed as a color, as is Goose Turd. :D
Unfortunately, so is Dead Spaniard... :o
What a fun and informative list. Thanks for posting.
Quote from: CecilyWilkins on October 25, 2011, 04:56:48 PM
Quote from: isabelladangelo on July 28, 2010, 05:39:31 PM
List of Elizabethan colors (http://www.elizabethancostume.net/lizcolor.html) and pink is one of them...
Haha, Puke is listed as a color, as is Goose Turd. :D
Unfortunately, so is Dead Spaniard... :o
What a fun and informative list. Thanks for posting.
I think Dead Spaniard is a kind of greenish gray. Someone will probably correct me.
I read a highly interesting book the other day, on the use of purses, pouches, bags, alms purses etc etc, from antiquity and until modern times. It categorized the various versions, so you could read specifically about for example alms purses, or versions used by farmers and citizens.
It had many interesting picture examples, and got to show how they in the past separated as much between different versions as we separate between a Fendi "baguette" and a beach bag today. So the question "Period accuracy of pouches" has many answers, but yes - they definitely existed, and was much used.
Now, I took a photo of the cover of the book, to have for my own reference in the future. And I managed to delete that picture. So I have to go back and find the title for it. But in the mean time, here are more books on the subject:
Mediaeval dress accessories found in the various excavations in London, including purses:
http://www.amazon.com/Dress-Accessories-Medieval-Excavations-London/dp/1843833514/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319646961&sr=1-1
Mediaeval and Renaissance pouches, purses, bags etc. from archaeological digs in the Netherlands:
http://www.amazon.com/Purses-Pieces-Archaeological-16th-Century-Netherlands/dp/9089320148/ref=pd_sim_b_6
Come to think of it, I think the book I read was "Carried away". I remember getting "Sex and the City" vibes from the title... It was a very interesting book, especially when dealing with bags related to specific topics like money or religion.
http://www.amazon.com/Carried-Away-All-About-Bags/dp/0865651582/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1319647302&sr=1-1