Ok, so it has come to my attention, however thick I may be, that some people seem to have a problem or a concern with me expressing my opinions of the Colorado Faire. I am aware I hold them in less than high regard. I am aware I am somewhat vocal in this fact. I have never been one to hold back my opinions.
My confusion is this: Why does my expressing my opinions cause such a ruckus, and for that matter, why does anyone care? It seems the last two times I've chimed in on a thread with less than glowing recommendations for the faire or it's management, someone has felt the need to put on their combat boots and try to stomp all over me and my opinions. Worse yet, people panic, and the most common concept I hear is "Oh My God! This is a Public Board! Management can see this! You are going to get us all in trouble!"
How in the world can I, Me, who has no affiliation with the faire, it's management, it's cast, its crew, or any other aspect, get others in trouble for expressing MY opinions? Why do people suddenly run around screaming that the sky is falling? I'm sure there are more than a few people willing to go on at great length about what an insignificant speck I am. As such, why on earth do these same people care what I say?
Just kinda curious.
This is actually a serious question, not just a random rant. I'm trying to understand this.
You are correct this is a public forum that has no affinity with the Colorado Renaissance. As long as you abide by the rules of this forum (such as no flaming, trolling, personal attacks) you have a right to express you opinion freely.
Welcome to the USA.
From what I've been able to tell people just get really defensive about their home faire- whether or not what you feel is true or opinion or whatever, they will defend to no end. An example of this- I know of someone who was called a snob because she made mention that some of the cast of CORF didn't seem to be enjoying themselves. It was an observation (and from what I have seen from pictures I really must agree with this person and her observation) and she was personally attacked because of making it. I think that any comment that could even remotely be misconstrued as negative will be reacted to as such only because the person "hearing" it is being protective. You know, like you can talk crap about your own family but no one else better even THINK to say anything about them? =)
Hmm, a good point Ladyfae. kinda of a "Nobody Beats up my Little Brother but Me." sort of thing. I guess I can see that. I am curious, this friend who was called a snob, was this on the boards, or away from them?
Quote from: Radu the Gypsy on July 26, 2010, 12:21:06 AM
Hmm, a good point Ladyfae. kinda of a "Nobody Beats up my Little Brother but Me." sort of thing. I guess I can see that. I am curious, this friend who was called a snob, was this on the boards, or away from them?
My home faire is the Kansas City Renaissance Festival, which, I defend to the bitter end ALWAYS. However, now that my wife and I live in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, in addition to traveling to KCRF each fall we also journey to the Pennsylvania Renaissance Faire in Lancaster, about 3 hours East, each fall. And since the PARF is not my home faire, I do tend to criticize it off and on based on how I really feel, in comparison to KCRF, and other faires I go to, MNRF, and a couple others. And when I do all the PARF regulars tar and feather me.
In short, people defend thier home faires and then some. And when you say anything whether deserved, honest, or anything else, prepare to get blasted!
See, I understand the concept. Perhaps I am just odd. Colorado was my first faire, and in the early days, it was shiny and beautiful. and I still consider it my home faire. But I honestly have much more fun attending Minnesota or Arizona. When asked my opinions of faires, I have so many stories of good times at the other shows, and while I have some fun stories from Colorado, they never compare. I suppose much of that stems from the fact that I got burned by colorado, while the other faires have never been anything but welcoming. ::shrug::
But I wander with my point. I suppose the defense of ones home faire is really no different that cultural, state, or national pride. And we all know how vehemently people ride in defense of those.
This still does not address the Big Brother question. The anger perhaps we have explained, but what about the panic and fear? Why do people (and I'm getting the idea from messages that it's not just me) get shushed for being critical, with the attitude of "Management is watching, you cant say that here!!!"
Quote from: Radu the Gypsy on July 26, 2010, 01:15:40 AM
This still does not address the Big Brother question. The anger perhaps we have explained, but what about the panic and fear? Why do people (and I'm getting the idea from messages that it's not just me) get shushed for being critical, with the attitude of "Management is watching, you cant say that here!!!"
When someone implies, "shhh don't say that, management is watching..." its a polite way of saying keep your negative comments to yourself - much the same way someone says, "Watch the profanity, there are children present."
The Renaissance Festival is a place people attend by choice not mandate - they go to enjoy themselves, whether rennie or mundane, the goal is to have fun. If for what ever reason you do not enjoy yourself, do not attempt to vent your displeasure on those who live for the fair for the rant will fall on deaf ears and it will surely alienate you from them.
When comparing Renaissance Festivals - do not berate one over another - find the good in each and tell others what you enjoyed not what you disliked. If you enjoy one over another, then attend the ones you enjoy, find fellowship there, but do not chastise one for failing to live up to your expectations.
Quote from: Celtic Rune Stones on July 26, 2010, 06:43:10 AM
Quote from: Radu the Gypsy on July 26, 2010, 01:15:40 AM
This still does not address the Big Brother question. The anger perhaps we have explained, but what about the panic and fear? Why do people (and I'm getting the idea from messages that it's not just me) get shushed for being critical, with the attitude of "Management is watching, you cant say that here!!!"
When comparing Renaissance Festivals - do not berate one over another - find the good in each and tell others what you enjoyed not what you disliked. If you enjoy one over another, then attend the ones you enjoy, find fellowship there, but do not chastise one for failing to live up to your expectations.
I have to disagree here. If someone doesn't complain, management may not realize there is a problem that they may correct or at least minimize. For example Sherwood Forest, in Texas is a very new faire. They had problems opening day which were brought to their attention. And management bent over backwards to try and correct those problems. I didn't make it there last year because I didn't know if StudMuffin could handle the terrain but with the improvements I have heard, I believe I shall try to attend next year.
On the otherhand, I doubt I will ever go to CORF as I have heard EVERYTHING is uphill from wherever you are. And this is one of those things management can't fix.
Critquing is good, Bi**hing is not...
Quote from: Celtic Rune Stones on July 26, 2010, 06:43:10 AM
Quote from: Radu the Gypsy on July 26, 2010, 01:15:40 AM
This still does not address the Big Brother question. The anger perhaps we have explained, but what about the panic and fear? Why do people (and I'm getting the idea from messages that it's not just me) get shushed for being critical, with the attitude of "Management is watching, you cant say that here!!!"
When someone implies, "shhh don't say that, management is watching..." its a polite way of saying keep your negative comments to yourself - much they same way someone says, "Watch the profanity, there are children present."
The Renaissance Festival is a place people attend by choice not mandate - they go to enjoy themselves, whether rennie or mundane, the goal is to have fun. If for what ever reason you do not enjoy yourself, do not attempt to vent your displeasure on those who live for the fair for the rant will fall on deaf ears and it will surely alienate you from them.
When comparing Renaissance Festivals - do not berate one over another - find the good in each and tell others what you enjoyed not what you disliked. If you enjoy one over another, then attend the ones you enjoy, find fellowship there, but do not chastise one for failing to live up to your expectations.
Well stated Celtic Rune Stones !!
Quote from: KeeperoftheBar on July 26, 2010, 07:52:16 AM
I have to disagree here. If someone doesn't complain, management may not realize there is a problem that they may correct or at least minimize. For example Sherwood Forest, in Texas is a very new faire. They had problems opening day which were brought to their attention. And management bent over backwards to try and correct those problems. I didn't make it there last year because I didn't know if StudMuffin could handle the terrain but with the improvements I have heard, I believe I shall try to attend next year.
On the otherhand, I doubt I will ever go to CORF as I have heard EVERYTHING is uphill from wherever you are. And this is one of those things management can't fix.
Critquing is good, Bi**hing is not...
Complain to management - yes; but do it to management, not air it out on the forum. They have an office and a public affairs rep - that is the proper venue for bringing something to their attention.
I have always seen this forum more as a place to converge with others over our love of faire, and this one in particular being that it's our regional/home/local/whatever faire and most of us attend it on a regular basis, whether working or playtroning. We post here because we love faire, we love going to faires, and we love the people we meet at faires, and we want to discuss our adventures and our daily faire fun with others who share that love. To be bluntly honest, I don't see much point in coming down on management here, because it's simply not the proper place. Context, tone, and vocal expression required in such critical discussion is not possible on the Internet, and so because of that, a lot of time things get taken the wrong way, people get angry at each other, and it's generally just not a good way to handle things. If one has an interest in critiquing or commenting negatively about the faire or its management, it's best to be done in the physical presence of others who feel the same way. Don't get me wrong - I b!tch about many things about the faire and the way it's run, and it's because of a lot of things related to it that I'm not returning to work faire next year, but I don't discuss those reasons here, because this is not (no pun intended) the correct forum.
Just my tuppence, anyway.
But Celtic Runes, time and time again it's been proven that any complaints and criticism directly to management falls on deaf ears. I agree that in most cases that is the way to go, but that is ineffective here.
Zoe, where would you recommend such discussion be held then. No, seriously, If I could find a constructive way for my complaints and concerns to be voice and, if not necessarily addressed, at least acknowledged, I'd snap it up. A bunch of like minded people sitting around in a circle bitching about how bad things are achieves nothing, except to perhaps learn new stories of what the faire did to other people. Airing it publicly at least has the chance fo others not of a like mind (and management, lets not forget management) to see, comment, and possibly do something about it.
History has shown us that sitting around in dark rooms bitching about things has achieved nothing (except perhaps for some french poets). Rationally attempting to argue your position with irrational individuals achieves less. Following history's lesson, we at the storming the streets with pitchforks stage (Metaphorically, I dont own a pitch fork). So give me an alternative method to publicly posting my grievances in hopes of them being addressed that actually works, and I'm on it.
In the interest of not sounding like I am trying to fan a flame, I will leave it at this: nobody has ever forced anyone to go to faire. If one has grievances about faire that are so bad as to incite hatred at the mere mention of it and/or its management, perhaps one should not attend faire, and leave it for the rest of those who still enjoy it in whatever capacity that they do. That is the point of this board, as has been my impression for many years and was the reason I joined this board in the first place. If anyone is interested in starting a community that is based solely in complaining about management in a public forum that may be heard by someone else, there are plenty of free message boards out there.
Quote from: Zoë on July 26, 2010, 12:00:37 PM
In the interest of not sounding like I am trying to fan a flame, I will leave it at this: nobody has ever forced anyone to go to faire. If one has grievances about faire that are so bad as to incite hatred at the mere mention of it and/or its management, perhaps one should not attend faire, and leave it for the rest of those who still enjoy it in whatever capacity that they do. That is the point of this board, as has been my impression for many years and was the reason I joined this board in the first place. If anyone is interested in starting a community that is based solely in complaining about management in a public forum that may be heard by someone else, there are plenty of free message boards out there.
My new bestest friend... ;D
First zoe, it's not hatred, it's frustration. I have never told or encouraged anyone to NOT go to colorado, though if asked my mist of favorite faires, it's not high on the list. I go to see friends I dont see other places because some of them travel, some of them live far away, or some of them simply only come out for faire season. I have never once at faire itself attempted to in any way disrupt or ruin anyone's enjoyment of the show. I had one single scene with betty on grounds which I promptly apologized for blowing my top and walked away. And lastly, implying my comment are nothing but negative complaints of the faire is unfair. Fair has it's beauty, and I've said so before. There are a number of very talented crafters who create beautiful works of art. We still have some excellent performers and entertainers. It is a great place for people to go and socialize and dress up. It's allows us to connect with other people with similar hobbies and interests. I have a number of friends I would never have made had it not been for faire. There are a number of life lessons (good and bad) that faire has taught me. I've learned crafting skills through contacts at the faire that I never would have learned any other place.
and so again, and I am not sure how I can make this any plainer: I do not have a problem with the Colorado Faire. I have a problem with Management and their treatment of people.
Then I suggest you contact the owners and the management along with everyone else that has the same complaints and confront them on a civil level to them. This board will only bring you more dislike of those who do love the faire.
Are their issues? yes but EVERY faire has their issues. Do you hear about them? Not all of them if any. I can spout out things with another faire that I refuse to go to because of the way it is run, and when asked my oppinion of it, i will say I do not like it and the reasons, but leave the management out.
Each faire brings something different. And has someone who has been attending this faire since long before it had a gate or a jousting arena, or a Puke and Snot pirate Ship stage, and when kissing wenches were every where (Basically 20 years not in a row but 20 years added up togather in visiting as a few years I missed because of RL) I have seen the faire change for the better and maybe not so better, but I still love it and will still continue to go. I have now been part of cast and it has parts I love... and parts I do not love.
But with the bad I will keep that between Toki and myself and I will continue to come and enjoy the faire and it's pagentry as long as Colorado has a faire or I am not around.
But remember 1 thing and remember this well. CoRF as well as ANY other faire are a business. It is there to make money first and foremost. If your not happy withh working with the company... find a new job to work at. If your not happy with the product... do not buy the product. And if you think you can do better... Do it. And if it were such a horrid place it would be closed down.
And if everyday was like Saturday I'd say business was booming as it was wall to wall people with lines into privies and beer sales ALL day long.
Also sit down with others and talk it over, them them why you dislike management so bad. But please keep it off this forum as their are rules to bashing and calling names or spreading negative remarks.
I have finally had some time to catch up on what has been going on here and this, and the original thread, have definitely caught my attention. If you go back through my posts you will notice how many time I mentioned how nice everyone was. That is one of the things that really drew me to this forum. The downward spiral of this is what keeps me away from forums in general. I have absolutely no problem with freedom of speech but when your comments get personal then send a "private message" which is what they are for.
All the problems this seems to have brought up are present in everybody's life and in EVERY job or workplace. Just this last weekend my daughter went through some bad stuff at her workplace that personally makes me want to never shop at that place again. However, we dealt with it and the situation has been resolved. I have never worked anyplace that didn't have issues and people who were disagreeable - it's just a fact of life. If you are really bothered by it go to the people who you have an issue with and do your best to work it out with them. If the situation can't be resolved then either move, remove yourself from the situation or find a way to deal with whatever it is you have an issue with.
I think the thing that bothers me the most is that someone would come onto CoRF's forum during the time that the faire is going on and say how bad it is and how great other faire's are. Truly bad form...
I refuse to tell someone what they can or can't say but this is a much better place to stop by when things are on a positive note and the people are being agreeable.
Looking forward to seeing everybody on closing day.
Have a great week everybody and keep smiling.
Skip
P.S. my apologies to anyone that my comments might offend - not my purpose in ranting - just hate this forum turn out like all the rest.
I, like Skip, have just now caught up on this whole mess. However, I feel probably in direct opposition to all of you. I feel that, the majority of you who have replied really haven't felt the sting management can sometimes deal out. Notice, I didn't say all of you, but I do know that some of you haven't really had any dealings with management other than "hey, thats Lady S, or JP" (and if Im wrong please correct me....nicely of course :P) But, being that this IS a public forum, and Bear has every right to speak his piece anywhere he chooses, I say he is at perfect liberty to rant about management as much as he wants, because frankly, its not like he's making any of it up. Agreed, that yes this is generally a forum for people who still like the faire (as I do) but just as nobody is FORCED to go to faire, nobody is FORCED to read or comment on anyone's rants. You don't even have to open the thread. Why not make it a rule that if you DO have something to rant about from now on, you state so in the title of your thread so others can either open it, or choose to ignore it? Does that sound alright? or am I totally out of line? And backing up a little bit, I would like to say that I see "faire" and "management" as two seperate entities entirely. Faire is the place that you come to experience magic, see your friends that you haven't in 9 months, eat turkey legs (if you do...<bleh> :D) watch wonderment in childrens eyes....ect ect... Management on the other hand is the politics behind all of that. Granted they are the ones keeping the "faire" part up and running, and in NO way would I ever in a million years WANT that job, but you have to be able to seperate the two. And I feel that Bear was trying to say that, but perhaps it just wasn't coming across. Though CORF may not be his favorite faire, it is his home faire, there are people here that he likes to see, and he comes out one or two times to do so. I will also attest that he has never tried to ruin anyone's fun while he was out at faire with talk of the blunders of management,...ever. So, in order to vent his frustration he comes here. Lets all put our hackles down, and calm down a bit. The faire has been around for 34 (?) years now, it obviously doesn't need our defense. I would just like to state, that I love being at faire, I love the people, I love dressing up ect. Its like my drug. However, I do not enjoy interacting with management very often, though I care deeply for most of them personally, I don't like dealing with them in their managerial capacity. Who likes dealing with a boss? in any context? So on that note....
*let the yelling at me comence*
Guidelines - Just follow the rules of this forum
1. Personal Attacks and Arguing
The Number 1 Guideline While debating and discussion is the purpose of this board, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks or purposeless inflammatory posts. Our decision is final in these matters. If you attack someone, don't be surprised if you find yourself banned. If you find yourself opposed to another person's post; debate, do not argue. Above all be polite and respectful of others. Threads that degrade into a head-butting contest will be closed and the participants will receive a warning. This guideline especially applies to arguments where it boils down to just trying to get the "Last word".
Please report personal attacks or arguing to an admin or the moderator of the forum.
2. Faire Bashing
Same as personal insults. This is not to say that a negative comment cannot be made, but rather that if such a comment is made it must be done accurately (don't exaggerate) politely, and with respect. State your issues, but do not vent here. Rants of any kind will not be tolerated. This may include generalities like "The faire is just awful" which is not exactly a rant, but contains no useful information. Anything disrespectful will be removed immediately. Acceptable: I thought there were too many out of period characters, and bathrooms were hard to find, and were not clean.
Not Acceptable: This is the worst faire in the U.S. Don't waste your money!
A quick not before I close this thread. I've received several PM's on the "discussions", and I use that term lightly, going on here. Even though there is no assigned moderator for CORF, you can be sure that you have my full, undivided attention.
Keep it civil. This is an open forum. Taking it to a personal level, bating, and flinging insults will not win you favor here. If you have a problem with someone, take it to PM, or contact a mod.
There has been a lot of finger pointing here on who's to blame, and all I can say is that it takes two to tango, and it's been a full dance house as of late.