I'm making an ensemble that consists of an underkirtle of red damask and a rather kirtle-like overgown. The overgown laces in the back, and has a split skirt (unsually split up the side, instead of up the center front).
I'm trying to decide where to have the underkirtle lace. I kind of *want* to have it lace up the sides; I'd like to be able to wear this by itself, and I already have lots of pieces that lace up the front. I like the idea of having an unbroken bodice at both front and back (the red damask is just gorgeous).
But because of the odd side split (http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/19463764/319645340.jpg) to the overgown, I'm concerned about those side openings. I don't want them to extend too deep into the skirts.
And then there's side-back lacing (which seems like it would be *really* hard to get in and out of).
I have patterns from TUDOR TAILOR, Margo Anderson, as well as for my gamurra-inspired dress (front-lacing) that I can work from.
I would appreciate *any* thoughts anyone has on this matter. Thanks!
I guess that depends on how far to the side you're planning on the over gown skirting split. If I remember the image correctly, the split seems to hit at about the hip bone. If you have the under kirtle lace under your arm, like a modern shirt seam, they would be pretty close, but I can't imagine why the over gown would expose the lacing of the kirtle too much.
It's tricky getting into an under arm lacing gown by ones self, but it can be done. I don't have any first hand experience with a side-back lacing, so I can't help you there.
Given other images of the style of gown (I'm guessing this is the late 15th c/early 16th c Tudor, correct?), I'd say front lacing for the undergown/kirtle. This is based on many other examples of layers worn through out the 15th c and into the early 16th c...including the portrait of Queen Catherine around 1506, I think.
I see this gown as an early Tudor (I know - English rather than French but I can't think of any other way to describe it.)
Take a look in The Tudor Tailor p. 64. Everyone of those kirtles/gowns close in the front in some fashion.
Think about the Italian gamurra.
I would make the undergown/kirtle close in the front.
Umm...that kind of blows that pleated trim around the neckline theory all to heck, doesn't it?
Second choice would be center back. It is kind of a pain to lace up but it is doable if you spiral lace. It just takes time and funny contortions. (At least for me.)
The overgown, I would side back lace. Generally, you can leave one side laced up all the time and just lace up the other side when you put it on. It is slightly easier than center back lacing but, still, spiral lacing is the key.
Center back - lace up. Side back - lace down.
I guess, on second thought, I do usually lace down the center back. But side back, there is no other option.
I would say side back lacing. That way you get a smooth front to the bodice, and an unbroken neckline.
Only a couple of the undergowns in the tapestry seem to be front-laced (and they look like the Catherine of Aragon that Isabella mentioned). Most of the gowns are that pre-Tudor, post-Burgundian transitional style. 'Course, this is the only one that has anything like that pleated thing in front, too.
I found Lia de Thornegge's side-lacing kirtle diary (http://swein.campus.luth.se/lia/garb/2006slkirtle.html?GallerySession=f1770ca3752bacee664168aace3ca812), which is helpful. I think I want a tiny bit more fullness in the skirt, though (not too much, or it will bulk up under the black kirtle).
Have you looked at Semptress' draping instructions for kirtles? I've found them very helpful in the past.
http://www.sempstress.org/patterns/draping/kirtlefitted.shtml (http://www.sempstress.org/patterns/draping/kirtlefitted.shtml)
http://www.sempstress.org/patterns/draping/kirtlekohler.shtml (http://www.sempstress.org/patterns/draping/kirtlekohler.shtml)
This is the under-kirtle for my Flemish garb. It is linen with a canvas under bodice that is hemp boned.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/MythrinFarm/SElIjOrsG0I/AAAAAAAAB5M/YobDw1NVUFc/DSCF0053.JPG?imgmax=512)
Like the one you are making, it is side lacing and I wanted some fullness without having the skirting and bodice being separate pieces, so I gored the skirting. I also did not want a long slit showing if I would ever not wear the over-gown, so I added inserts that hook and eye closed under the fold of the side skirt. It has worked well for me for coming 2 seasons now.
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/MythrinFarm/SElIejxVdwI/AAAAAAAAB5E/t94TSEqFues/DSCF0050.JPG?imgmax=512)
How I handle the necessity of dressing myself is that the right side is "fixed" (laced up tight) and I do not open or close that side. The left has a 5 - 6 foot of lacing on it and I make huge loose lacing-loops on left side prior to ever getting in it. I pull over my head and tighten the laces. Then I do an old horsemen's trick of making a version of a chain stitch of loops out of the surplus and hide it in the side slit. Only one has to be careful to grab that chain-stitch prior to sitting on the privy.
Mythrin, thanks! That was hugely helpful.
I haven't ever made anything side-lacing--is there anything I should be aware of when converting my pattern (currently front-lacing) to side-lacing? I was thinking of cutting the bodice front with the Center Front on the fold, but I don't know if that will actually work. Is the back panel of your bodice seamless, or is it pieced? I actually have a gown from Sofi's that's side lacing (http://images.buycostumes.com/mgen/merchandiser/19741.jpg), and I don't remember it being crazy hard to get into (then again, it's not boned anywhere).
Keep those suggestions coming, folks! I'm in that "terrified to proceed 'cause I don't know what I'm doing" stage at the moment! LOL
I've made 1 side closing gown & am working on 2 more. I cut w/ both the center front & the center back on a fold. The one thing I've always been sure about is making positive that those folds are on the straight of grain w/the fabric.
I tried to make the side lacing edges on the straight of grain, but the rest of the bodice when all wonky when I did that. Thank god I'd made A MUSLIN! I can't tell you how helpful this was in creating the pattern I'm using on the 2 new ones. It's easy to work out the problems on cheap fabric that you have tons of, and so disheartening to screw up the good stuff.
Quote from: gem on June 09, 2008, 09:42:28 PM
Mythrin, thanks! That was hugely helpful.
I haven't ever made anything side-lacing--is there anything I should be aware of when converting my pattern (currently front-lacing) to side-lacing? I was thinking of cutting the bodice front with the Center Front on the fold, but I don't know if that will actually work. Is the back panel of your bodice seamless, or is it pieced?
I've done side-lacing a couple of times and...I hate it. I hate it with a passion. It's the whole trying to lace something right beneath your arm thing that really gets difficult. Even if you pre-lace it, you then end up with a huge amount of left over lacing on either side that just doesn't look right (even if you tuck it in). Now, side back isn't that bad because it's similar to straight back lacing. You do a couple of rows, put it on, and I can typically do the rest using a mirror as my guide. Also, the laces don't bother you the rest of the day because they aren't getting caught on your belt, stuff, or constantly untieing from all the bending, walking, ect.
Now, that being said, once I do get my side laced bodice on, it's okay if I tie it tightly enough. It just takes me a heck of a lot longer than the back, side back, or front lacing.
It's just the opposite for me. I can easily get myself into and out of my side lacing dress but must have help with the side-back lacing dress. Of course having arthritis in my shoulders does complicate the issue. I never quite figured out how to tie off the cord when spiral lacing to keep it from loosening during the day or how to deal with the ridiculously long cords on the side laced dress but, out of frustration the last time I wore it, I brough the two cord together in the front under the dress and tied them together in a big bow. It worked perfectly to keep the laces tight all day and kept the ends from coming out of the side of the skirt.
First, The court dresses I make are two-three pieces (bodice, over skirt, under skirt). The last two court dresses I have made for Lady Glorianna have side lacing which have made it easier to get in and out off and actually compliments her figure, I think ;)