Since the discussion has veered from my original post more to my actual question, I've tweaked the subject line! :D
In my established tradition of plotting an upcoming project while halfway through the current one ;D... I'm turning my thoughts back to the Promenade gown (http://elizabethcbunce.wordpress.com/historical-costuming/promenade-gown/).
I've had issues (http://elizabethcbunce.wordpress.com/historical-costuming/promenade-gown/construction-diary/) fitting the bodice on the kirtle/undergown because the neckline is so high, and raising the neckline on my bodice block or other patterns has not yielded satisfactory results.
Tonight I had the lightbulb moment that rather than raising a neckline, perhaps I should try LOWERING one. So I'm wondering if we could talk about achieving a proper fit in the upper chest on a doublet bodice.
I know the Margo Anderson doublet employs princess seams, which are then covered by trim. That's not an option for Promenade. Other options are Simplicity 3782 (http://www.simplicity.com/p-2009-costumes.aspx) or the pattern from Tudor Tailor.
I'd love to hear stories or click links anyone has on fitting doublet bodices!
Gramercy!
I used the simplicity 3782 for my doublet bodice, and I don't think I really wound up changing too much of the pattern at all, besides the normal fitting issues I have on any pattern. It was a really nice and easy pattern - It's cotton velveteen lined in cotton duck, with my contrast forepart fabric used as the lining on the collar. I didn't put any boning in it, since it is worn over my ren corset, and I did buttons with a trim acting as the buttonhole up the front, and I put hooks on the waist to attach to the skirt waistband, so it wouldn't ride up.
That said, for the promenade gown, I honestly don't see you using a doublet bodice pattern, since the tapestry gown looks more like it has a standard Tudor kirtle type bodice, with an alteration in the straps affecting the neckline... But that might just be me, since I really haven't studied this gown before.
A tip that I read about 17th c gowns, which might be useful here - If you're having problems with a gappy neckline (which I think might be the problem if you just tried raising the neckline on the mockup you already have), one solution is to not bone all the way to the top, and run a very thin drawstring through the very top edge. Any gapping you have (which shouldn't be more than an inch or so, I would think) can be pulled taught to fit.
Gem,
Your Promenade gown looks like it could be an Italian like bodice, which means it would or could close in the back or sides. These pictures are from Jen Thompson at her Festive Attyre site, I am only using them for examples
Much like this gown:
(http://www.festiveattyre.com/gallery/florentine/images/portrait.jpg)
This bodice looks very much like the bodice in your painting, it does not look like a front opening gown at all it has a side slit in the skirts, but shows a high shouldered tapered not like a rectangle L but more /_\, as such I would not look at doublets but drape a bodice over your Camisa and stiffening (if you are using such) so that your bodice tapers and closes in the sides of your gown.
Bodice Construction like this:
(http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/diary/images/florpat1.gif)
When you make your toile? You can have a friend help you by adding fabric to where you need to get the tapered look and then when you make the toile #2 you work on adjusting how it will actually fit.
With sleeves not unlike these:
(http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/15thdiary/images/rdslbk.jpg)
So does that make sense?
Cilean
Thanks, guys.
I guess I'm not making myself clear. Promenade is Franco-Flemish, circa 1500-1510, so it's kind of Pre-Tudor with fantastical Italianate elements. It definitely has the flat Tudor front, not the curvy Italian one, and like Rebecca said, it has all the classic Tudor elements: the square-necked kirtle and the overgown. But unlike every Tudor pattern out there, it has a very high neckline to the kirtle--well above the swell of the bustline.
It's that high neckline I'm having trouble achieving. I've tried raising the neckline on various bodice patterns/blocks, with no luck. I thought I might have better luck going in the opposite direction--starting by fitting a bodice that already has a very high neckline, and cutting it down.
I saw in Tudor Tailor that they actually show a scoop-necked doublet bodice--but since it's Tudor Tailor, there's no cutting diagram for it. ::)
Anyway, since covering the upper chest is new territory for me, bodice-wise, I was looking for tips on fitting that area specifically, without the use of princess seams (or with the option to draft those out once the proper fit is achieved). Cilean, you're working on a doublet bodice right now, I see. Did you use a pattern or adapt that from draping or an existing bodice block?
(I knew I shouldn't have even mentioned Promenade, 'cause I would just confuse you. ;))
Gem I don't think working from a doublet pattern will help you much, TT's doublet pattern has some very subtle shaping along the front edges that makes room for the bust.
If you flip to page 66 it shows fitting a bodice. Before the seam allowances are cut down the bodice edge is level with her smock. You can see the fabric bubbling at the front underarm area. But once the shoulder straps are adjusted the excess is smoothed away. (I don't recall if that was one of the issues you were having. Do you still have the photos of the raised neckline kicking around? I'm not seeing them on your blog.)
Another thing that crossed my mind is your bodice doesn't look like it is cut with a slight upward curve to it? The tapestry image looks almost like it is cut straight across but if you look at other images from the same tapestry series you can see the subtle shaping. Raise the middle of the bodice an inch and then taper it away to nothing where the bodice and shoulder strap start.
Out of curiosity have you looked at any of Jean Hunnisetts books? They have cutting diagrams.
I agree with CenturiesSewing about the slight arch.
If you "draw" a body underneath it, I think you will find that the nipple area would be around the trim line, which goes under her armpits. That would be in the "Tudor" shape. IMHO It looks to be a lower neckline, rather than a higher neckline. If it was a higher neckline that trim would stop at the armseye.
High http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/prinmary1.jpg
Higher peak of arch, but lower on sides. http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/guildford.jpg
Lower http://www.uvm.edu/~hag/sca/tudor/moregirls.jpg
http://www.culture24.org.uk/history+%26+heritage/work+%26+daily+life/royalty/art67683
Thanks, Syrilla and Centuries! It's fantastic to get your input. I'm really excited about working on this again, and finally getting it right.
I've definitely considered arching the neckline, but I need the whole thing to be higher overall. The picture from my blog is the Tudor Tailor kirtle pattern with an additional 2" added to the top:
(http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/19463764/367786378.jpg)
I would like it to hit midway between my collar bones and where it hits now, which I think is another 2" or so (not quite as high as where the white cami hits the green straps). I think the current neckline might be OK for the overgown, but it's definitely too low for the kirtle. I'm not actually all that long in the torso, but my bust points are fairly low (11" if you ask my dress form!), which I think is contributing to the problem. Also I am thin in the upper chest, which is also not helping. ::)
Ideally, I'd love to achieve a fit like these costumers have managed:
Flat-front Italian gown (http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2008/Caterucia-full.jpg) (All her gowns, actually, flat front (http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2008/Caterucia-partlet.jpg), curvy (http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2006/Caterucia.htm), or doublet (http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2009/Kerri-2.jpg), fit her beautifully in the upper chest).
Green silk kirtle (http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/bilder/TempledeLyon/silkkirtlefront.jpg) (see more here (http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/TempledeLyon.html)) This one is especially fascinating to me, because she also has a kirtle with a much *lower* neckline here (http://web.comhem.se/~u41200125/bilder/greenkirtlefront.jpg).
It's getting that higher neckline to still fit that's completely stumping me. How do they do that? I think draping is my answer, which is why I thought starting with a bodice block that went all the way up to my throat (like I did for the curved-front-opening gown last summer) would work better than trying to add on to the top of something.
But I'm not sure how to drape like that on my curvy frame and get the nice flat Tudor front (which would require boning the mockup). I'm also eager to try the boning pattern from Jane Malcom-Davies's paper on stiffening bodices, which is one thing I neglected to do when working from their kirtle pattern.
After almost two years away from this project, I really want to dive back in, so I'd love to hear any more thoughts you have on fitting!
Gramercy!!!
Silly thought but have you thought about making a basic fitting shell, then putting it on your dress dummy so that it is your size, and THEN drawing where you want the neck line to be? I have done that a few times to get the right neckline curve on some of my theatrical projects. At least that way you have something that kits the neckline like you want it. That way you can compare it to other bodices and corsets.
Ahh, I see. You are going for a different idea than the tapestry. Got it.
LadyStich has a good idea. You can put a corset or some other supportive, squishy garment and drape the line from there. It is hard to imagine where the breast are going on a pattern, if there is to put them there with. Did that make any sense?
Oh, and give the girls a renfaire boost (almost peeking out of the corset), if you need to get them higher to get a easier line.
Draping the bodice block on the dressform is where I've been leaning... which is where we come back to the doublet bodice! LOL Since it starts with the higher neckline, I think it would be easier to cut down.
LS, I have Hunnisett's Medieval-1500 on hold at my library, but they don't have the 1500-1800 volume.
Gem, Drat it! I got lucky and as a graduation present my in laws got me all 3 of the JH books, and the Cut of Men's clothes. All brand new.
Other than actually buying a copy I'm not sure where to get you the patterns if your library doesn't have it.
Quote from: gem on February 17, 2011, 05:56:24 AM
I saw in Tudor Tailor that they actually show a scoop-necked doublet bodice--but since it's Tudor Tailor, there's no cutting diagram for it. ::)
(I knew I shouldn't have even mentioned Promenade, 'cause I would just confuse you. ;))
You know I am single minded! LOL
Okay so are you speaking of this sort of Waistcoat?
(http://www.modehistorique.com/portfolio/16thc/jacket/DSCF1065.jpg)
Or this one?
(http://www.tudortailor.com/pix/ninyawithdaveallen.jpg)
And??? They have a pattern for this Waistcoat is in fact here:
http://www.tudortailor.com/patternshop.shtml (http://www.tudortailor.com/patternshop.shtml)
I know there are issues with Reconstructing History so I will not show you her link. I draped after my disaster with afore (RH) mentioned pattern, so I built my own,
As for my current Doublet? I used Margo's Patterns and then draped it for myself after.
Did that help ??
Cilean
Quote from: gem on February 17, 2011, 11:17:40 AM
Thanks, Syrilla and Centuries! It's fantastic to get your input. I'm really excited about working on this again, and finally getting it right.
I've definitely considered arching the neckline, but I need the whole thing to be higher overall. The picture from my blog is the Tudor Tailor kirtle pattern with an additional 2" added to the top:
(http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/19463764/367786378.jpg)
I would like it to hit midway between my collar bones and where it hits now, which I think is another 2" or so (not quite as high as where the white cami hits the green straps). I think the current neckline might be OK for the overgown, but it's definitely too low for the kirtle. I'm not actually all that long in the torso, but my bust points are fairly low (11" if you ask my dress form!), which I think is contributing to the problem. Also I am thin in the upper chest, which is also not helping. ::)
A wild and probably amateurish thought: what if you added a strip to the existing toile to extend the neckline. You fold in the extra fabric at the end of the straps/armpits until the toile fits. The same can be done for the fancy fabric - though not adding a strip. Use the fabric in one piece, but fold it in at the armpit area, like the toile. This area will be covered by a broad trim a la Tudor style anyway, won't it?
As for the Promenade dress you've linked to, many has referred to it as pseudo-Italian. I wonder if it's not more Hispanic in style. I seem to remember several examples of such sleeves and narrow bodices along with the Hispanic/Lombardian hair fashion in the book "Hispanic Costume 1480-1530". The book deals with Spanish and Portuguese women's attires in the given period, and was a bit of an eye opener in terms of Tudor, French and Italian style. It also shows the origins (or so it's assumed) of the farthingale. Here's an example of Hispanic dress style, and although I won't claim it's exactly what you need re: the Promenade dress, it's definitely worth a look:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pedro_Garc%C3%ADa_de_Benabarre_St_John_Retable_Detail.jpg
(and yes, I know how to put IMG tags around the link to display it on this forum, but that is hotlinking and I don't do it)
LINK TO THE BOOK:
http://www.amazon.com/Hispanic-Costume-Ruth-M-Anderson/dp/0875351263
Thanks, Anea! Centuries Sewing actually sent me a fabulous link to early French manuscript pages with gowns that are exactly the same era/style as Promenade. You can imagine my excitement!! PM me if you're interested; I am perfectly happy to pass them on (some of them are just incredible.) As for raising the neckline, I did try exactly what you suggested. Click here (http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19463764) for the less-than-completely-satisfactory results. :-\
I think my key here is going to be starting with an altogether different bodice block, an adjusted boning pattern, and lots more draping. Must finish the purple kirtle first, though! (And I should probably get a little closer to my summer/Fair weight!)
(Cilean, the TT garment I was talking about isn't the waistcoat; it's the doublet bodice on page 83, view b. They give cutting diagrams for view a--with the band collar--only, so it's hard to tell where the lower neckline is cut down to. There's also not a photo of the made-up lower neckline doublet.)
Quote from: gem on February 21, 2011, 12:30:17 PM
Thanks, Anea! Centuries Sewing actually sent me a fabulous link to early French manuscript pages with gowns that are exactly the same era/style as Promenade. You can imagine my excitement!! PM me if you're interested; I am perfectly happy to pass them on (some of them are just incredible.) As for raising the neckline, I did try exactly what you suggested. Click here (http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/19463764) for the less-than-completely-satisfactory results. :-\
I think my key here is going to be starting with an altogether different bodice block, an adjusted boning pattern, and lots more draping. Must finish the purple kirtle first, though! (And I should probably get a little closer to my summer/Fair weight!)
I know it might not mean the biggest difference for the finished result. But in this one the boning stops under the inserted strip. You're bound to get a big difference in stiffening and tension then, I don't think you'll get an idea of how it would look on if you don't continue the boning into the inserted strip.
But starting anew might be easier in the end. And how cool about those new photos of similar dresses!
So you would extend the boning all the way to the top? Interesting... I'll admit that was my first impulse as well, but fittings didn't support (ahem) that technique... so I was actually thinking of trying the curved/underbust boning recommended by Jane Malcolm-Davies in her 2008 essay in "Costume," (http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/maney/cos/2008/00000042/00000001/art00003) and seen in the corset of Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina von Neuberg. (http://www.ladybrooke.com/costume/corpspique/images/German-Corset-1598.jpg%5B/url)
Okay I am now with you, I have the page here and yes if it were me? I would use some muslin and just make a toile. My Doublet is from Margo and does have princess seams in, and I adore this for my personal shape as I have DDs who even strapped in, want some space in the Doublet. I am going to attempt making one of these for my BFF in Corduroy for tourney gear I am going to toile her because I want to see if I can get the look for her from the start to finish. I have been really making patterns for myself for a bit, however being a sewing intermediate, I still like to work from someone else's pattern. That is for April, and I will have a Page for the Gown in my blog.
I suggest getting a friend who also wants a Doublet Bodice to help you and then you help them!
Cheers!
Cilean