Hi again all. Some more silly questions for you to (hopefully) help me with. ;D
Since it's going to take a lot of time and money to finish and perfect my "Elven Archer" costume, and since the folks here have taught me that I do not have to stick with just one character, I've been doing quite a bit of reading on the gypsies, though most of the results are very limited or one site will contradict another site - it gets very confusing.
I sometimes feel like gypsy is a good fit for me as well, in the past 5 years I have traveled to 32 states, Canada and Mexico, so I've got the "traveling to exotic lands" part down - and in the past, I have been guilty of swindling which was forced on me through a form of opression and lack of options(I am not proud of my past, but it is there); another supposed gypsy trait according to a few websites.
One of the sites I have enjoyed the most for gypsy information is: http://westwood.fortunecity.com/armani/208/costume.html which I hope has provided some accurate information.
I did have some questions though... (again..)
I believe the site I linked, or another I was reading over, said that the bellydancing garb and gypsy/Roma garb are two completely different cultures - yet I've seen photos labeled as "Gypsy" and they have been dancing with quite a bit of skin showing around the midsection. I personally have no interest in showing the skin through personal preference, so can you clarify the differences (if any?) in the Roma/gypsy and the bellydancing (middle eastern?) cultures as it relates to Faires...?
Also, I've seen a few different websites that mention bells are worn by some gypsies (along with numerous trinkets) but I wanted to kind of make sure that this is not referring to the "bellydancing" bells...? Also, what type of bells are considered 'period'? It said no "cowbell oy jingle bell type" but I am somewhat at a loss as to what material and shapes/sizes would be considered period - and where one can buy them? A search on "Renaissance bells" didn't exactly provide plentiful results.
Footwear... one link said that period type sandals were common, another said that either sandals or the same footwear peasant women wore. However, in my online research not many sites seem to cover footwear. They all focus more on the dresses and such instead. Any pointers on proper Gypsy footwear?
Cloth... I understand through the websites and some other research that printed materials are not period. I also understand that due to their travels, Gypsy were much more inclined to have brightly colored cloth though Black was supposedly very expensive and not as common on costumes, and Red was seen as a color of very bad luck in the culture. My question is on cloth itself: what "type" of cloth would be considered period for gypsy? I'm a bit at a loss here as wouldn't different cloths be seen as normal in different parts of the world as the Gypsy traveled? Would the cloth in their outfits be heavy linen or lighter flowy material? Cotton? Silk? And what about colors, I know printed material is out, but what about material died in different colors; such as a very simple "tie dye" effect? Would that have been period or not at all? Would each piece of cloth only be one color? A search for some paintings showed very simple earthtone colors, such as peasant garb, so I haven't really found much info on the colorful side of Gypsies.
And finally, a few of the websites said that the type of clothing would vary depending on the "type of gypsy" one was to personify. It said that poachers would have fur and feathers, for example. Yet another said that furs were common on various costumes as a "pilfered piece" of luxury garb...?? Any comments on that?
I know I ask A LOT of random things, and I do apologize for the nonstop typing... but you all were so helpful with my other posts that I know I can get some great help with this one!
Quote from: Exiled Archer on April 28, 2011, 02:32:16 PM
It said no "cowbell oy jingle bell type" but I am somewhat at a loss as to what material and shapes/sizes would be considered period - and where one can buy them? A search on "Renaissance bells" didn't exactly provide plentiful results.
Idiot me went searching online for bells bells bells, and duh *smacks forehead* my mother has a few strands of bells which might work to string up on a cord and hang from my waste for a bit of extra jingle...? Do you think any of these will work?
(http://i52.tinypic.com/99q4n9.jpg)
I'm partial to the ones on the white cord, in the upper left hand corner. The are a bit "aged" and rusty, but I somewhat like that very-worn look.
Opinions?
All of those bells are PERFECT!!! WANT! I think as far as gypsy garb...you can get the feel across with a "peasant blouse" (if you have a DOTS store nearby, they actually have some in the store), couple of broomstick skirts (Hancock fabric or K-Mart are selling some) and a few long thin scarves as belts (until you find a bodice you like). The bells are perfect...you can add some beaded and metal jewelry, and a head scarf and VOILA! Gypsy! That would be great garb for hot days too.
It's true that the Roma didn't show skin the way the middle eastern belly dancers do, but that doesn't mean you have to stick to strictly "peasant" style wear. Gypsies traveled everywhere, and during the renaissance they would have just been making their way up into middle Europe, and still probably spending winters in warmer climates, so the variety of their clothing would have been much, much wider than that of the ordinary Europeans, with lots of Indian (since they originally came from India), Turkish, more modest Middle Eastern and even Moroccan influences, as well as that of the tribes of the Steppe. So there are an infinite number of ways you can garb a Gypsy... it's just up to your imagination! You certainly don't have to choose just one of these styles, either, because Gypsies would have bartered, worked for or "liberated" random pieces of clothing as they traveled, and they liked to combine things to create their own unique style.
Any or all of your bells would work, and they're all beautiful! Probably not all at once, but you could mix and match, since they probably wouldn't have had full sets of many things. Maybe you could get some lengths of different colored pretty cord and make a belt, and string them on the ends at different lengths, so one or two will jingle when you walk, without sounding like a walking carrillon! ;) It would look like bits and pieces you gathered along your route, which is highly authentic for the nomadic lifestyle.
Head coverings are another fun thing to play with! You can do the scarf, or a turban, even, with various styles of draping, depending on if you want to cover your face or not. You can also choose a full length bodice or a shorter one, or a short vest over your chemise top. The Rom had (and still have) some pretty particular laws about what was, and wasn't acceptable, and exposing too much skin wasn't considered to be proper, so if you go for the shorter bodice you should probably always wear the chemise under it.
Rope sandals are always a good bet, although leather Greek or Roman style sandals can work, as well. Even a simple pair of Mary Jane's is acceptable, since it's similar to a style of the period. Turkish style turned shoes are lots of fun, as well, but can be harder to find, unless you have some skill with leather.
As for prints, there were some forms of block printing being done in the far southern and eastern regions, and Gypsies may have had access to places where these would be available. There was also cloth painting done, as well, so you could make your own prints, or find fabrics made with these methods to sew garb from. Embellishment was very popular, as well, so embroidery on the hem of a full skirt, or vest or bodice, or even on scarves, would have been common, since some vitsa's (clans) prized showy needlework and would barter with it. A couple of skirts in different colors, a belt, a pouch or two... and jewelry. Gypsies generally wore their wealth, and mostly in coin form, so they could keep track of how much there was, and also so it was harder to steal. Cords or chains with coins strung on them were common, as were belts and bracelets. Even coins worn in the hair. Not those thin aluminium fake coins on the bellydance scarves, though... but heavy, ornate coins. You can find foreign coins by the pound on ebay, but request the ones that are brass and bronze, or you'll be sent mostly copper, nickel silver or aluminum. The copper ones will work, though, but they won't usually look very exotic...
Really, with the Gypsy character, your imagination is the only limit... which is why I always have such fun with my inner Gypsy! :D The most important thing to remember, though... is to have FUN creating your character, and the garb that goes with her!!! Enjoy...
Belly dancing outfits and gypsy outfits are indeed very different, but a lot of people wear the former and call themselves the latter.
I have a pile of photos from the Scarborough performing company's Costume Parade on my Pbase, and that includes shots of all but one of the gypsies on cast if you want to see the styles that they're using.
The bells you have are absolutely perfect. The sound is to keep evil spirits away. :)
Photos are here:
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136826
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136827
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136828
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136829
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136830
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136831
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136832
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136833
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136834
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136835
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136836
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136837
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136838
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136839
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136840
http://www.pbase.com/lys1022/image/134136841
I am just beginning to research the Rom (Gypsy is often considered a derogatory word within but for faire it is fine) for SCA. Remember that because they traveled they encountered all kinds of cultures. They would often adopt from where they were. Depending on location and time frame will change the specific Rom culture and hence dress. Elizabethan England had mixed feelings about the Rom being about. It is believed they began immigrating into England in the 15th century. Henry VIII banned the Roma in 1530 but they were welcome in Scotland for a while (this is where my persona is based). Queen Elizabeth was a bit more tolerant as long as you assimilated (kinda against what the Rom were all about!). Red is a big no no color, considered unclean. The ancestry of the Roma is India. But as people traveled and cultures changed/adapted you will find many descriptions. The long of the short of it is that this if Faire, so you can really do whatever you want! Have fun with it! If you want to know more about the Romanichal (Rom in England) let me know.
Photos are a great way to get ideas. We have all been doing this a long time and still steal ideas from photos! ;D
Excellent replies, thank you sooooo much.. and great photos, they were very helpful and reassuring!! I am very excited to have some freedom of choice in 'garbing' my alter-ego, as it were! :D I purchased a couple low-dollar items on eBay earlier today for my gypsy character, and while they are not period correct as it were, I think they will work out okay for a start until I can invest (or make) some higher quality items.
I am so glad the bells will work out!! I was looking online, hitting dozens of sites, and mom was like "Well, what about my bells?" -- total DUH moment for me. :D Ironically, I had photographed them a couple weeks ago and was supposed to be listing them for sale on ebay but never got around to it... glad I didnt! :o
I was thinking of braiding some yarn or fiber cord to add the bells to, then drape them off my hips or something. Making a belt with them is a great idea!
And for the coins, another great idea! I'd been looking for some trinket ideas to add to the look and coins are a great tip. Maybe something to add a little extra sound when I move and walk.
Another trinket item for your opinions... Cowrie shells? I didn't find any "significant" relation to cowries and Romas online, but historically cowrie have been used as currency in China and India(though I could not find a time span on that), and are common in jewelry and decoration. I have around 50 of them (from my past mollusk collecting stage) and could string some of them up for an added adornment if it might look okay and fit into the period..?
I can't say how glad I am to find this forum. I've learned SO much and gotten loads of reassuring and super helpful posts!! THANKS everyone for taking the time to offer your opinions and info!! VERY much appreciated!
Glad to see you are finding so much help! As for your question about cowrie shells; yes they work. If you aren't worried about being tied to a certain historical period and such. I have made strands with eyelash yarn, cowris shells, beads and other gypsy bits to add to my garb. You can make them as long or short as you like and tie them to a belt or whatever.
There are a couple of ren-bands that play the faire circuit that dress gypsy and always look great. The bands are, Wine & Alchemy and Circa Paleo. There are pics of them floating all over this site, facebook and the web. Perhaps their garb can help inspire you as well.
Have fun putting it all together!
Finally, a use for the cowries that have been sitting in a storage box for years! :D
As of right now I am not entirely set on being strictly H/A(i assume this means 'historically accurate'..?) or fitting exactly into any one period. Once I get more comfortable in the persona, I may gravitate to more specific and proper garb and eventually learn to fine tune my character how I want her. But for now, I'm basically just going to have fun, learn all I can through any experience I can get, ask a million more questions here, and try not to walk into a Faire in a Klingon outfit or anything THAT off the wall. ;D
I've seen a few stormtroopers grace faire and it made me smile. Really whatever makes you happy, right?
Can I just personally say kudos for putting so much thought and effort into all this! Holy carp, the first time i went i put on a pirate coat and a tricorner hat and was absolutely confused the entire time! I really think you're going to fall in love with faire (you seem to already have!) and I am dying to see what you put together.
P.S. I am so very jealous of your bells. My mom did belly dancing and I stole all her zills and costumes ;D
Oh, I almost forgot! About the bells... if you choose the ones that are more melodious sounding, you will enjoy them more! Trust me on this... after you've walked around Faire for 8 hours, jingling, you'll be much happier to STILL be hearing the sound of tinkling chimes than you will the jangling clash of dissonant klaxons!!! :D So use your ears before your eyes when choosing which ones to wear... you'll be glad you did.
Came here to comment on the term <Gypsy>, but Dinobabe beat me to it. I think the others have pretty much covered anything else I could have added. :)
I am extremely jealous of your bell collection, though!
I researched Rom culture a few years ago, and I think if you are going Rom vs. belly dancer, you actually want to make sure your stomach is covered. I remember reading that for Rom women it was considered taboo to show anything from the waist down. In addition to skirts I would recommend long bloomers for modesty. I think boots would be better than sandals, but that is strictly my opinion.
Because you are new, I would honestly avoid any prints and stick to solid colors or simple woven patterns(think tapestry like) and woven stripes. I made so many mistakes as a newbie by grabbing whatever material I thought looked good instead of keeping it simple until I had some experience under my belt and had a feel for what material was appropriate and what just didn't work.
Quote from: Meagan on April 29, 2011, 08:23:13 AM
I researched Rom culture a few years ago, and I think if you are going Rom vs. belly dancer, you actually want to make sure your stomach is covered. I remember reading that for Rom women it was considered taboo to show anything from the waist down. In addition to skirts I would recommend long bloomers for modesty. I think boots would be better than sandals, but that is strictly my opinion.
Because you are new, I would honestly avoid any prints and stick to solid colors or simple woven patterns(think tapestry like) and woven stripes. I made so many mistakes as a newbie by grabbing whatever material I thought looked good instead of keeping it simple until I had some experience under my belt and had a feel for what material was appropriate and what just didn't work.
Good about keeping the belly covered, I'm not interested in showing skin personally. Also good about the bloomers underneath, I had already planned on wearing some dance-tights under the skirts as added modesty protection in case of a strong wind. haha. :D Saw some haren-type pants in a few of those photos posted above, so may go with that style instead. And I too agree the boots would be more my style than sandals would. I might look for a moccasin type or slip on with no lacing or upper stitching. Might not be exactly correct, but perfection (or at least some fine tuning) can come later. ;)
As for patterns, right now the only pattern I have is on my headscarf. I looked at various possibilities for headwear and since it's more or less limited to my imagination and what works for me, I went with an "improper" hunter green with white-dot printed cloth for the headpiece. It has elastic and was listed as a "cap scarf" but I liked the look and this will work for my "starter garb." It was a very low dollar item and can easily be replaced with something more accurate later. Here is a photo of it.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/hummerluvver/band-fix.jpg)
I also got some photos of a large-chain copper bracelet my mother has (in addition to her bell collection! woo!) which might work as well? Any opinions on this are welcome! I know it's at least 25 years old, so might fit into the garb well enough being an "old style" aged piece of jewelry.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/hummerluvver/DSCF6128.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/hummerluvver/DSCF6127.jpg)
And just 'cos I can.. a couple more shots of the bells. ;D The ones on the white cord are the ones I am drooling on, but I'll use my ears and see which ones are the most appealing that way as well.
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/hummerluvver/DSCF5602.jpg)
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b334/hummerluvver/DSCF5603.jpg)
Harem pants are super easy to make. I recommend Simplicity 5359. Wait for it to go on sale, they are usually $2. Be aware that the pants are HUGE! I folded the center in about 8 inches and they were perfect.
5359, thanks, wrote that down. I'm hitting a couple stores in town on Tuesday to do some pattern hunting and fabric oogling. Simplicity and McCalls I believe are the two pattern brands they have. But I'll definitely look for the 5359. I can usually spend an hour easy just lookiing through the pattern books. ;D
About bloomers: I'd stay away from dance tights or anything not made of natural fabrics, especially if you will be at faire in hot weather or you will swelter.
To do it cheap and quick, especially for the beginning, since no one will see them, get thee to Goodwill and for a buck or 2, buy a pair of cotton pajama bottoms and cut them off either just above or just below the knee. Much cooler. If you can sew, in the future you can make your own out of cute patterned material, but the pajama bottoms work just as well.
I leave most of my bloomer bottoms open so the air circulates, but I do have a pair of pirate bloomers that have elastic at the bottom with a ruffle. I wear them with my skirt hiked up, so you can see them, and then I like the look of the ruffle on the bottom. It's your choice, but the open ones are cooler.
Just as another general Romani resource, I would recommend this book: http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Vlax-Romani-Ian-Hancock/dp/0893572586/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_3 (http://www.amazon.com/Handbook-Vlax-Romani-Ian-Hancock/dp/0893572586/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_3) I took a class at UT taught by the author, and it was very interesting and informative.
Bellydance scarves have lotsa pretty sounding bells and coins. Also there is Etsy that has endless things that can work for faire and Gypsy.
Like you said as well the thrift stores are PRIMO for random faireish stuff too
Hi, I'm going to try to reply a lot of your questions from various posts at once regarding the Roma.
First, an actual source:
http://larsdatter.com/romani.htm
Please, take a second to look at the actual paintings from the 16th Century of the Roma. What you will quickly discover is that what people at Renn Faires wear and what was really worn has little to no similarities. What has happened is this: Most people seem to like to perpetuate ignorance and do "Disney" research; ie, they think Hunchback of Notre Dame is period and must be real rather than even giving the slightest hint to any period sources for inspiration. This, unfortunately, is common in many other styles and not just the Roma. I call it "Hollywood syndrome" because, as we all know, Hollywood always gets everything right. *insert facepalm here*
Sorry if it sounds snarky but I'm rather tired of people declaring themselves as something they aren't even really attempting to be and perpetuating ignorance. I'm much more for education and explaining to people what really happened.
What was really worn was not bells. They wore a linen chemise -sometimes decorated with embroidery- and possibly a sleeveless "supportive" chemise plus bodice beneath that. Over the chemise, they had a sash of some sort -again, sometimes decorated- going from the left shoulder to under the right arm across the body. They always wore hats. For footwear, you are typically talking sandals or the same footwear as everyone else. Mary Janes are period.
Use linens, wool, and even silk for fabric. They had access to the same merchants as everyone else; they just cut the fabric differently.
If you have further questions, please ask. I know of several good webpages on what was worn but I think the first one I gave you will probably be the most helpful for right now.
Thread hijack, sort of... ;D
Isabelladangelo, I am researching the Rom people for a SCA persona. I plan on spending time at the library but if you could point me to some internet resources that would be great! I have found some but sometimes it is hard to figure out the right search words! ::) Thanks!
Of course!
http://buttery.org/marian/Gypsy_dress/drape_main.htm
This is another one I rather like. I have a few more at home saved but I won't be able to get to them until this afternoon. Try using "Roma Garb 16th Century -rome" as a search for bing/google. It works a bit better than some of the other terms I've tried in the past.
Thanks!
Isabella is correct in that if you are going for a COMPLETELY H/A Rom, you won't look too much different from the average peasant of the period. However, taking a moment to assume privilege that I really don't have and speaking for the performing company members who play Rom, it is very important that they present a picture that is "foreign" and very different from the peasants. Otherwise they are just going to be peasants with a different funny accent than the rest to the average patron.
The Scarborough Rom do their very best to balance respectfully portraying a culture that is very private with cultural information against the needs of theatre. Rom in England probably wouldn't speak Khalderash for instance, that dialect is more local to other parts of the world. However, it is the most common Rom dialect, and thus the one with the most sources, so that is the choice that /I/ made when I was the Lead Dialect Instructor for the Performing Company. It allowed us to still respect the language as opposed to just using Russian instead (which had been the previous custom), as the Rom on performing company at Scarby all have a history that brings them to England from Russia and the Eastern European states.
I think that if you approach a portrayal from a point of respect and genuine interest as opposed to throwing out stereotypes at the drop of a hat, THAT is the important thing. I think that performers who do so try to represent ALL of the cultures shown at faire in a positive light (because believe me, the village characters and Court characters are probably no more H/A in terms of every detail than the Rom characters. The only reason they may be a bit more accurate is that there is a LOT more source material available on them.)
*grin* I think I got a little soap-boxish. Sorry about that. It's an important subject for me, being someone who has an avid interest in other cultures and in history as WELL as being a former instructor and a sometime performer. I think that it is important for folks to realize how hard the folks at many faires (not all, but a lot) work to try and bring as much research and background into things while having to still be entertaining about it all. Again, this is from a performer's point of view, which is different (not better, not worse, just different) from the point of view of the playtron or what is looked for in the SCA and other similar organizations. No one who performs sets out to insult anyone (well, other than Christophe! *snerk*), and many want to use their positions to help spark an interest in history and culture in the average patron. That's one reason that a lot of us are out there. We love to entertain AND we love to teach, and this is a good way to do both.
Anyway, thanks for letting me ramble. *hops off soapbox* I hope it made a LITTLE sense, anyway. :)
Quote from: lys1022 on May 03, 2011, 01:37:52 PM
Isabella is correct in that if you are going for a COMPLETELY H/A Rom, you won't look too much different from the average peasant of the period. However, taking a moment to assume privilege that I really don't have and speaking for the performing company members who play Rom, it is very important that they present a picture that is "foreign" and very different from the peasants. Otherwise they are just going to be peasants with a different funny accent than the rest to the average patron.
Correction; the Roma did not wear what the peasants were wearing. (I looked and, although I mentioned the footwear was the same as everyone else, the dress itself was vastly different). What they wore was distinctly different from any cultures the Roma interacted with. Peasants tend to wear what is less "dressy" version of noble garb (similar cuts, just out of less expensive materials with less embroidery and other ornate decorations). The Roma are wearing something different and it doesn't seem to change from area to area.
Thanks for the replies! Good info!
No worries about the soapbox thing. :P Hop on it whenever! ;D