Or rather Passes. Received a love letter from the main office. TRF will now be doing background checks on all participants. AND there will be a small charge for the first 7 passes and going up steeply after that.
Should be interesting to see who doesn't make the cut.
Im interested in other peoples thoughts (especially thoughts of those it actually affects) but I think on one hand that this is a good idea since TRF is a family place and there are so many kiddos out there.
I'd be willing to bet that isn't the thing they're looking for, Tink...
Actually, our notification states safety of the patron as one of the main reasons for this. So long as they are looking for sex offenders & other known criminals, it's cool.
However, like many faires, TRF has a small but noticable group of gypsy workers. They live on the circuit & many of them choose to live off the grid. Honest, hard working people that have a faire-to-faire relationship with their vendors whose only "crime" may be that they have no government footprint. How this will affect them & their vendors will be interesting. Depends on how strict a criteria TRF chooses to impose, I guess.
Quote from: Merlin the Elder on June 19, 2011, 08:10:53 AM
I'd be willing to bet that isn't the thing they're looking for, Tink...
Please forgive my stupidity here- what else would they be looking for?
Quote from: ravic on June 19, 2011, 11:03:50 AM
However, like many faires, TRF has a small but noticable group of gypsy workers. They live on the circuit & many of them choose to live off the grid. Honest, hard working people that have a faire-to-fire relationship with their vendors whose only "crime" may be that they have no government footprint. How this will affect them & their vendors will be interesting. Depends on how strict a criteria TRF chooses to impose, I guess.
I was always under the (maybe romanticised) assumption that this was the case with most vendors. If they are not in the system, that means they havent been hauled in for anything, which is a good thing, right? I would hope that this would not affect them negatively. I love the idea of living off the grid and just travelling from faire to faire.
yuck, I dont like that idea at all (*though I dont mind Sherwood being home other than the distance) Compared to a lot of you, I am a relatively new TRFer (started going regularly in 2005) but even in that short time, Ive seen it grow into more of a commercialized venue. I know that the bottom line of a business is to make $, but I think this has become more of the overall emphasis of the faire, which takes away from the overall experience. Just my thoughts, though.
Tink, I think that by "off the grid" what they might mean is no formal ID, and probably even no copy of their Social Security card. A lot of traveling people have had problems getting these things, for one reason or another, and this would probably mean that a great many of them wouldn't be able to work at TRF this year, or in subsequent years, either, even though they wouldn't necessarily be working FOR the Faire, itself, but for a vendor who has most likely paid them in cash in the past.
On the one hand, I can attest to the presence of some folks out there- who were banned by Jeff when it was brought to his attention, to TRF's credit- who are the exact sorts this is trying to purge. On the other hand, a lot of the ren-gypsies neither trust this sort of intrusion, nor are likely to work a faire that does this, regardless of the existence of bona fides or not. Most of the gypsies do have IDs and the like, but they are also gypsies for a reason. Most of the ones I know stay off-grid because they have trust issues with governments, authority types, etc. So, while they most likely have clean records and documentation necessary to pass the checks, this is precisely what they are trying to avoid.
Another thing to take into consideration is this- who has access to the results of these background checks? I have done many of these myself on employees (bodyguards are required to have psych evals and extensive background checks), and I can assure you that there is a LOT of personal information that comes back as a result, not just a yes/no of whether you've ever been convicted of a crime. The standard DPS background checks show arrests, not just convictions, as well as personal information you really wouldn't want being out there. So, if someone submits for this check thinking it's merely to discover if they are a registered sex offender, TRF management and anyone else with access to their files- legitimately or illegally- will have a record of every single infraction you have ever committed. Every arrest- regardless of adjudication- will show, and can be used against you by any personal enemies you may have who might get into those files. Paranoid sounding as this may be, I have seen it happen numerous times, and have been on the receiving end of such a witch-hunt by a jackarse who used to work out there, got tossed for theft, and twisted it around in his head to blame me for it. It HAS happened, and it will happen again. I would want verifiable proof- not just promises and assurances- that the information would only be accessible by Jeff and/or George, be held in a secure file cabinet, and not be shared or released without a court order.
Just a word of caution.
A business is going to target whatever demographic they can get the most money from, and the more people they can get through the gate the more money they will bring in. That's just economics. Families have more members...it's all math from there.
But I don't really see that being related to the background checks... That seems more about wanting to control who has access to the grounds... And being able to charge for the privilege of having your past investigated. From what Ravic said, the fee is going to be pretty high...
Let's just pray that we have a faire to go to this fall. Wildfire north of faire, Grimes County FD is now involved. :'( See the other thread for more info.
Yes, what Rani & Breandan said. A lot of the gypsies (not real Rom) are old hippies, independents, etc. that dropped out of official sight decades ago. America actually has a rather large underground society. The faires just happen to rub up against the edge of it.
ALL successful faires are a big business. I have been a TRFer since 1977 & a vendor since 1999. The business-like feel may be lighter in some years but it is always there. We work our collective paychecks off to make it feel like fantasy land for the patrons but, rest assured, a quick look behind the scenes will convince you it ain't. Same goes with any other faire where the participants actually understand the deal.
Quote from: ravic on June 19, 2011, 09:36:18 PM
Yes, what Rani & Breandan said. A lot of the gypsies (not real Rom) are old hippies, independents, etc. that dropped out of official sight decades ago. America actually has a rather large underground society. The faires just happen to rub up against the edge of it.
ALL successful faires are a big business. I have been a TRFer since 1977 & a vendor since 1999. The business-like feel may be lighter in some years but it is always there. We work our collective paychecks off to make it feel like fantasy land for the patrons but, rest assured, a quick look behind the scenes will convince you it ain't. Same goes with any other faire where the participants actually understand the deal.
I would hope that Terre and George have discussed the protocol for handling these checks.
As for their reasoning, while check might seem to add value to the faire, I think another reason may have to do with insurance. If you can show that not only your cast and staff are "trustworthy", but your vendors' crews as well, then you may be able to reduce the costs associated with liability.
Also, while I can say with some assurance the ravic and the rest of the CL gang wouldn't behave inappropriately, I honestly don't know that a participant's ID necessarily guarantees any level of trust on my behalf. I don't mean that to be overly cynical... you just can't know when you're talking about upwards of a thousand people. If they are willing to try, within reason, to find what may very well be the needle in the haystack in terms of an undesirable, then more power to them.
I personally have truly enjoyed the company of all of the vendors and cast I have had time to visit with, and expect that to continue. My hope is that this new policy will not dissuade those rennies that live in the greyer spaces from coming back and remaining the important part of faire that they always have been.
I would guess that might depend a great deal on how much the pass is going to cost. If it's too high a lot of people won't be able to afford to work there!
Definitely. I hate watching my home faire go down the road of shortsighted fiscal irresponsibility again, but it seems we're on that track. Speaking as a businessman, and one who has considered opening booths at multiple faires, this would be a deal-breaker. The extra fees and hassle aren't worth the relatively small amount of profit you might make (unless you're on Millionaire Row) after all of the fees, booth construction costs, power and other utilities, George's cut, insurance, fuel, payroll, etc. I could just as easily go to a sci-fi/fantasy convention, SCA or similar re-enactment group events, or other, smaller ren faires that are not afflicted with the posterior-implanted length of tree branch. I am all for TRF making sure that troublemakers and registered sex offenders are kept out- because like it or not, it has become a family faire- but this is just more straw bales upon the already overburdened camel financially, in addition to the InfoSec issues I mentioned earlier. TRF is not the only game in town, nor is it anywhere near the most profitable for vendors these days, so my business would go elsewhere where I can make more profit with less headaches.
I want to thank everyone for keeping this thread civil. Changes like this can evoke stong emotions.
Quote from: ravic on June 18, 2011, 06:33:11 PM
Or rather Passes. Received a love letter from the main office. TRF will now be doing background checks on all participants. AND there will be a small charge for the first 7 passes and going up steeply after that.
Should be interesting to see who doesn't make the cut.
Thanks for the info, Ravic. I'm a little surprised by the fee schedule the vendors were given. I'm not sure what agency (or online data resource) TRF management will be using for the background checks ... but why would there be a higher per unit cost for vendors who have more employees? I'm not saying that there should necessarily be a quantity discount, but this seems to be a quantity "penalty". ???
Quote from: MrHyde on June 19, 2011, 07:31:22 PM
As I said earlier this is an obvious move to make the Faire more business. We all know it is and has always been a business but the fact is that this business was built on a small amount of PG-13 behavior is what I fear will be lost. Gone are the kissing wenches and we move more and more to a family fun spot. I have 5 kids so don't get me wrong that family is important but Houston has a large amount of activities I can take them to for G rated stuff. My personal fear is as commercialization occurs more of what we love about a Faire will be gone. It is sad because adults need entertainment as well.
I would be sorely disappointed if bawdy behavior was overly censored at TRF. There are warning signs at the PG-13 shows and the performers also verbally warn the audiences. There is plenty of room in New Market Village to accomodate both adult and adolescent entertainment.
The German attack wench from the 1980's was a bawdy lane act, but she hasn't been there for many, many years. I am a bit concerned that you said the kissing wenches were gone. There have been a few surprises in the cast announcements so far, but did you mean they have not renewed the contract of Jenny O'Manion - the Scottish kissing wench? She has been a TRF staple for almost 20 years.
Perhaps mgmt is thinking to "tax" the larger vendors at a higher rate than the smaller ones, so that those who make a great deal more money there will bear the brunt of the cost, and those who don't make quite as much will still be able to afford to vend there...?
Quote from: Strange on June 19, 2011, 10:50:33 PM
As for their reasoning, while check might seem to add value to the faire, I think another reason may have to do with insurance. If you can show that not only your cast and staff are "trustworthy", but your vendors' crews as well, then you may be able to reduce the costs associated with liability. .
I suspect it also has to do with legal liablility. If any employee of any vendor at TRF does something illegal and is sued, I will wager TRF will be added to the lawsuit because of their 'deep pockets', even if they were not actually involvled. Remember the parking lot stabbing several years ago? TRF was sued instead of the low life who did it. (I cleaned it up)
And for this we have attorneys to thank, but I won't go there.
OK, let's back up a bit. The $75 passes ARE NOT NEW. For the past few years, we have been allowed 4-6 "free" passes with our booth fee. If we needed more than these, the $75/pass kicked in. The new part is the small fee for the initial passes, which I am almost positive goes to offset the background check. No biggie to me.
As has been mentioned, just because you can pass a check, doesn't mean I'm gonna trust you. The two do not necessarily relate. All that may mean is that you ain't been caught yet.
Ahhh... I was confused, then. I thought you meant there was going to be a much higher fee for the background check after the first 7 passes. My misinterpretation...
Sorry, I might not have been as clear as I needed to be.
Or I may have just assumed I knew what you were saying... no worries. At least it won't be adding a huge amount to the already existing financial burden of the small vendor, and that's something to be thankful for! There are many industries that require background checks, and most do a fairly surface check in order to ascertain that there are no felonies, and that you don't owe enough to make theft more tempting than it would be for anyone else, I believe... because anything more in depth starts to get pretty expensive rather quickly. I'm guessing TRF isn't going to want to shell out more than then minimum they can get away with, not with over 2000 employees to run checks on. Even at a fairly low rate of $25 per check, that's over $50,000 right there...
Quote from: ravic on June 20, 2011, 10:06:58 AM
OK, let's back up a bit. The $75 passes ARE NOT NEW. For the past few years, we have been allowed 4-6 "free" passes with our booth fee. If we needed more than these, the $75/pass kicked in. The new part is the small fee for the initial passes, which I am almost positive goes to offset the background check. No biggie to me.
As has been mentioned, just because you can pass a check, doesn't mean I'm gonna trust you. The two do not necessarily relate. All that may mean is that you ain't been caught yet.
Hell... I don't trust me, and I've known me all my life. I'm a bit of a rat bastard.
[RANT]
And of course the costs will be passed along to the consumers. I agree, we only have the lawyers to thank for this.
[/RANT]
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on June 20, 2011, 11:31:46 AM
Or I may have just assumed I knew what you were saying... no worries. At least it won't be adding a huge amount to the already existing financial burden of the small vendor, and that's something to be thankful for! There are many industries that require background checks, and most do a fairly surface check in order to ascertain that there are no felonies, and that you don't owe enough to make theft more tempting than it would be for anyone else, I believe... because anything more in depth starts to get pretty expensive rather quickly. I'm guessing TRF isn't going to want to shell out more than then minimum they can get away with, not with over 2000 employees to run checks on. Even at a fairly low rate of $25 per check, that's over $50,000 right there...
I expect they'll use a subscription service and just run cursory checks, or they might contract w/ the Magnolia or Todd Mission PD to run all the checks on the law enforcement network. Probably only cost them a few grand that way.
*considering King George owns most of Todd Mission*
Quote from: Rapier Half-Wit on June 21, 2011, 11:29:19 AM
[RANT]
And of course the costs will be passed along to the consumers. I agree, we only have the lawyers to thank for this.
[/RANT]
Because of inflation, there is always going to be some higher expenses to the patrons. The patrons will not notice this expense at all. The cost to the
vendors will only be a maximum of $35 more than in the past. Anything over that, I am certain it will be included in the 2012 booth fees.
I bet food prices will go up this year, though... but not because of this. Just because food goods have gone up everywhere, and the vendors won't be able to absorb the increase in costs that they will have without raising their prices.
We will definitely be eating all of our meals back in the campgrounds this year... with maybe a single treat from inside each day. Such a pity, to, because there is so much amazing food to be found in there! :'(
I understand they are having trouble holding the line on the cost of sticks. :D
Oh, no!!! Might we have Stakeless Steaks this season?!? Oh, the horror!!! :o
Ah, well... one less piece of gristle to gnaw on. Now, the chicken, on the other hand... well worth the cost of the stick, I assure you!!! Mmmmm...
I think the background checks are a good idea. As a merchant at shows for 25+ years, I often cringe at the "hidden" criminal or otherwise "undesirable" element in the campground.
As a community, we shouldn't be subjected to desperate people looking for a place to hide. When you consider why they need to "live off the grid," it's not always a romantic, idealistic story of someone choosing to buck the system to live a creative life. Many times, there is someone looking for them or they suffer from severe problems similar to homeless populations; substance abuse, mental problems problems etc.
I can name several people that have caused many problems to me personally over the years, and they are still out there, stealing and causing trouble for others.
This is gonna be an interesting season, that's for sure!
in the Chinese sense of the word? Lol.
Quote from: Laird Fraser of Lovatt on June 23, 2011, 09:55:28 AM
in the Chinese sense of the word? Lol.
Yeah, I think so ;)
You know though, while we're all talking about our concerns about who's contracts didn't get renewed, cast shifting around, the faire becoming more 'family oriented', costs going up, vendor background checks, and all, Keep in mind that these are important topics to us because the folks on this forum are much more involved in faire than the average patron, either as vendors, cast, faire regulars or playtrons, etc, and we know the folks involved.
But also remember that compared to the couple of hundred folks here, there are few hundred thousand TRF patrons who are blissfully unaware of all this stuff, and sadly won't really notice the changes.
I understand that everyone wants to feel safe. And back ground checks, aren't necessarily a bad thing.
However...
Somehow many people seem to have developed the idea that anyone that works in the government is somehow more altruistic, or immune to the same basic human weaknesses as everyone else. When in reality, those in power are much more likely to be swayed and influenced by the power that comes with their position of authority in the government. Power can be a much greater intoxicant than anything you can put into your body. Why do you think that elected officials will go to any length to get re-elected? And then they get caught in the mens room with their pants down around their ankles, literally.
Right now the Transportation Safety Administration board (TSA) is embroiled in a public relations war over their groping of little girls and abuse of the elderly and mentally handicapped in the airports. Ask Susie Castillo, Miss USA 2003, who was groped by the TSA and documented this in her public blog.
http://www.susiecastillo.net/blog/
There are videos on YouTube that have gone viral, showing the TSA's abuse of their power.
Is any of this negative publicity even daunting their attitudes of being corrupted by their power? No. Matter of fact they are taking their "grope show" on the road with VIPR. The TSA is now making surprise visits to train stations, bus stations, truck stops, etc, and utilizing their medically untested Backscatter Xray machines. Take a look at the Xray image that Susie Castillo includes in her blog.
Don't be so quick to give up your personal rights and freedoms to the government, expecting them to "keep you safe" from the "bad guys", thinking that the bureaucrats have your best interests at heart. When in reality, they are just "shooting up" on their power over you, that you have handed them.
Any power once relinquished is nearly impossible to get back.
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Benjamin Franklin.
You'd be surprised about the patrons not noticing the changes. I deal with a LOT of non-rennies, and when the subject is brought up I generally get pretty blunt responses. The two big complaints I hear from average patron types- as opposed to those involved in any depth with faire- are A) the tickets are too bloody expensive (standard bitchfitting, they'd be complaining about that if the tickets were $10), and B) "It's more like a cheap Disney World or Six Flags than a renaissance faire." Their words, not mine, but I've heard sentiment like that from a lot of folks. I've also heard the usual "That ren faire place is full of hippy s***, bunch of weirdo pagan druggies out there", but those aren't the types to buy tickets, so I write them off as benighted sots who waste my precious oxygen and aren't worth the biomass they're printed on. Of those who actually DO buy tickets, there is a sense of "I paid how much, for THIS?" that I have gotten of late. They love the artisan demos, and they love the booze and a lot of the shows, but it has become less like stepping into a Renaissance village and has become more like a medieval-themed flea market or mall for a lot of them. I think TRF has lost its magic along the way, and become the Medieval Times of outlet malls. It breaks my heart, frankly, because I remember what this festival meant to me for 20 years. I would like to see the new management team and staff turn that around and redirect it back to the magic that made it special, but whether this will happen or not remains to be seen. I have heard the new GM is looking at Sherwood as a model of how to do it right, which gives me hope, but rumours like that are a dime a dozen, so... *shrugs*
Breandan, No I'm not surprised. I hear the same sorts of things from my "non rennie" friends, with "Everything is too expensive" and "the parking is a nightmare" usually leading the pack, with "it's getting too commercial" and "too crowded" close behind. These are 'long range' changes, they develop over time, so the casual patrons just adapt to them without noticing too much.
But the thing is, these are people that do go to the faire at least a couple of times a season. I remember last year I was telling such a woman about some of the changes, and my being mad about Mandy not playing Anne Boleyn anymore. Her response was like "Oh, some of y'all work there?" after I explained more. she said as long as they didn't get rid of the mud show she'd be ok!
I guess my basic point is that it's a big business, and it grows every year. Last year over 400,000 folks came through the gates, and the powers that be are gonna run it in a way that appeals to the majority of those patrons.
Quote from: Breandan on June 23, 2011, 10:45:35 AM
You'd be surprised about the patrons not noticing the changes. I deal with a LOT of non-rennies, and when the subject is brought up I generally get pretty blunt responses. The two big complaints I hear from average patron types- as opposed to those involved in any depth with faire- are A) the tickets are too bloody expensive (standard bitchfitting, they'd be complaining about that if the tickets were $10), and B) "It's more like a cheap Disney World or Six Flags than a renaissance faire." Their words, not mine, but I've heard sentiment like that from a lot of folks. Of those who actually DO buy tickets, there is a sense of "I paid how much, for THIS?" that I have gotten of late. They love the artisan demos, and they love the booze and a lot of the shows, but it has become less like stepping into a Renaissance village and has become more like a medieval-themed flea market or mall for a lot of them. I think TRF has lost its magic along the way, and become the Medieval Times of outlet malls.
*edited for space*
I have heard a lot of the same from people who used to think it was great fun to drive down to TRF for a weekend or two. Now I'm getting more of the "Why would I pay that much when the place is more like a flea market with more sci-fi people than Renaissance stuff??" It's hard to explain to someone who is an occasional visitor that the limted number of cast characters can only cover so much of a huge fair site,vendors change....etc.
You folks have a whole different perspective that I, because of your proximity to so many faire choices. I probably look past a lot of the warts simply because it's such a treat for me to even get away to make a four-day weekend trip. It's hardly worth the trip if I'm not going to spend a lot of time at faire. But I do see some of the problems.
Like everyone else, I hate seeing business get in the way of our fun, but then it's the business that provides it... Catch 22.
Quote from: Merlin the Elder on June 23, 2011, 04:31:59 PM
You folks have a whole different perspective that I, because of your proximity to so many faire choices. I probably look past a lot of the warts simply because it's such a treat for me to even get away to make a four-day weekend trip. It's hardly worth the trip if I'm not going to spend a lot of time at faire. But I do see some of the problems.
Like everyone else, I hate seeing business get in the way of our fun, but then it's the business that provides it... Catch 22.
This is exactly the way I feel about the situation, as well... It's such a rare treat for us to not only get to Faire, but to spend time with so many of the people we hardly ever get to see, that I tend to overlook many of the things I would change if I were making the decisions, and just try to have as much fun as I can while I'm there!
All you can do is make the best of it by surrounding yourself with the people who have always made it a good time.
Exactly... and since there are so very many people there whom we love to spend time with, just about everything else is mostly beside the point!
You know, I've always felt fairly lucky that at faire and in life, I've managed to gain a small circle of good and trustworthy friends.
I don't consider many men as brothers, but a couple of them are part of my faire family.
My shopmate Tim has been my friend for many years, as has Crashbot, and I always look forward to Barbarian Invasion when we can all get together, if only for a short while, and enjoy the day. Now if we can just get Alex's punk weed puller out there...
Honestly, I take a loss every weekend I go to faire, but being around such an array of kindred spirits makes it worth every penny.
That, and I get to share mead and whiskey with strangers, which is good too :)
Yep, it's always a good time. Something I look forward to every year, thats for sure. Alex said he wanted to come out and camp, but somehow I do not see that happening, lol.