I could not find a good topic to put this under, so I made my own.
I can not find any documentation or explanation to what is going on with these sleeves. I know they are a support or underpuffing (is that a word) for something that goes over it, but what in the h??K is it?
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/syrilla/Online%20pictures/oddundersleevepadding.jpg)
Wow, that is odd. My best guess would be some sort of garter for under a puff and slash sleeve. But I'm also very confused by her hair/scarf thing. What's going on there? Attached to her head and then down to her shoulder???
Weird.
It looks rather allegorical to me. I don't think there is anything supportive wise for the sleeves -they actually look rather normal. That being said, my guess is a regular chemise, a white linen partlet, a ruff, a pair of stays with a back lacing dress, and leather upper sleeves with silk? lowers that have been rolled up a bit. The leather upper part is connected to the bodice straps (hidden beneath the partlet) with ties.
You can see similar elements here:
http://festiveattyre.com/research/images/waffle.jpg -it's hard to tell but her chemise sleeve is puffy at the top too -she just has her sleeves tied on better!
http://donna.hrynkiw.net/sca/flemish/art.html < a truly awesome page for Flemish in period artwork
WOW!! Even I am stumped!
That is pretty indescribable. I don't understand the sash from shoulder to head either. Maybe the sleeves are pushed far up her arm for the prayer? But the woman needs an iron!
Isabelladangelo, I agree that it is more than likely allegorical, and about the parts. However, with the way the "rope" is pulling on the chemise sleeve and the puffiness that looks stuffed at the top, it would lead to me to believe that it would be and under support. Leather make sense. Thanks for that thought.
As, to the hair piece, I think it is just a un-wrapped head "band" that is hanging over her shoulder.
Quote from: Syrilla on July 09, 2011, 08:14:37 AM
Isabelladangelo, I agree that it is more than likely allegorical, and about the parts. However, with the way the "rope" is pulling on the chemise sleeve and the puffiness that looks stuffed at the top, it would lead to me to believe that it would be and under support. Leather make sense. Thanks for that thought.
As, to the hair piece, I think it is just a un-wrapped head "band" that is hanging over her shoulder.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jenthies/2750421591/in/faves-jubileel/
Not the best picture but see the green dress? See the sleeves on that? They are incredibly "puffy" (Even after a very long day that day.) There isn't anything underneath them to make them stand out. What it is is a LOT of extra fabric, gathered to the lower sleeve and then held up to the shoulder by ties.
In the case of the painting, I think what we are seeing is nothing more than and a very full chemise sleeve that's been pushed up by that leather piece and then held there with the ties.
Looking at the portrait more, it appears that strips of fabric were cut, then twisted into a rope-like braid, then attached at the bottom in a V at the top of the sleeve itself, then finished. A clever diversion to create fabric manipulation, thus a textured effect.
Look more closely at the portrait to see what I mean.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on July 09, 2011, 09:29:03 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jenthies/2750421591/in/faves-jubileel/
Not the best picture but see the green dress? See the sleeves on that? They are incredibly "puffy" (Even after a very long day that day.) There isn't anything underneath them to make them stand out. What it is is a LOT of extra fabric, gathered to the lower sleeve and then held up to the shoulder by ties.
I figured the sleeves (green dress) were made like the leg-o-mutton sleeves on my Calico dress by Recollections.
http://recollections.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=R&Product_Code=W61204R&Category_Code=AllDresses
The huge puffy upper sleeves on this dress are supported by two or three short twill straps inside the sleeve, sewn to the top of the lower (forearm portion) sleeve straight to the shoulder seam. The shoulder also has a fan-like, pleated bit of buckram sewn inside the upper sleeve and over the straps to keep the sleeve puffy all day without the extra fabric. Works like a charm. I have worn that dress in 90 degree weather (with a hoop skirt) and was very comfortable. I use various lace collars (3-7$ each at Brass Armadillo) to change the look.
Back to the picture: The oversleeve on the portrait dress is unique. Perhaps that contraption is meant to hold the inner sleeves up and out of the way? Hard to tell if it's a chemise in there, or the way the material is supposed to lay.
There is a lot of strangely unnatural drapage going on in the skirt too. Methinks the artist got a bit carried away with arranging the cloth on his model; he made it look like she has a blanket wrapped around her waist and tossed over her shoulder.
I am sorry, I may be miss leading in the words of puffy on the sleeve heads. I am meaning more like this:
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/syrilla/Online%20pictures/Coolhat.jpg)
(http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y255/syrilla/Online%20pictures/wbodicesleevespink.jpg)
She is in her "corset", and chemise, which would lead me to think that all that we are seeing would be under/supportive garments.
Quote from: Rowen MacD on July 09, 2011, 07:05:46 PM
Quote from: isabelladangelo on July 09, 2011, 09:29:03 AM
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jenthies/2750421591/in/faves-jubileel/
Not the best picture but see the green dress? See the sleeves on that? They are incredibly "puffy" (Even after a very long day that day.) There isn't anything underneath them to make them stand out. What it is is a LOT of extra fabric, gathered to the lower sleeve and then held up to the shoulder by ties.
I figured the sleeves (green dress) were made like the leg-o-mutton sleeves on my Calico dress by Recollections.
http://recollections.biz/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=R&Product_Code=W61204R&Category_Code=AllDresses
The huge puffy upper sleeves on this dress are supported by two or three short twill straps inside the sleeve, sewn to the top of the lower (forearm portion) sleeve straight to the shoulder seam. The shoulder also has a fan-like, pleated bit of buckram sewn inside the upper sleeve and over the straps to keep the sleeve puffy all day without the extra fabric. Works like a charm. I have worn that dress in 90 degree weather (with a hoop skirt) and was very comfortable. I use various lace collars (3-7$ each at Brass Armadillo) to change the look.
Nope, it's not made like that. That's my Mom. :-) I made her the green dress. All it is is about a yard of material that has been gathered to the lower sleeve and had an 18 inch strip along the top hidden inside to gather to. There are eyelets on the hidden strip that lace the sleeve to the dress. Nothing more. No supports/buckram/ect.
Also, don't forget, there is a slight allusion to this painting. First, can anyone bend like that and not be in pain? Second, if you look at the sleeve to the arm, it looks rather normal for a puffy chemise sleeve. Third, don't forget the partlet flattens out the look of the figure a bit, creating an illusion that the sleeve is much bigger than it really is.
Again, it's allegorical. The sitter most likely is no more real than Marge Simpson and we are arguing over how she can keep her hair that blue and up in a beehive like that without a bunch of hairspray. :-)
Lady Kathleen, can you enlarge this? That would be interesting
I do agree it is more than likely allegorical. How ever it is still an interesting view/idea of undress.
"under/supportive garments" ......... This was the "Click" in my mind per the first "picture" painting
Paintings of the period (before moving pictures/television today) were the story tellers of the period.
Each one tells some kind of story>
The hint to this "fashion" may be in the story that is trying to be conveyed by the artist.
What story I see:
A woman praying for an enxtended period of time?
Was she praying for the return of a husband (she seems still young) so more unlikely, a son from war.
Or praying for a child, husband, mother/father on a death bed, or physicians bed, awaiting the recovery.
The extended time praying may explain the showing of the under/supportive garment idea. For if she had been praying at an extented period of time she might have removed the "over garment" to reduce the heat/fatigue.
As for the person holding a pose: Notice the hands, relaxed in prayer. Her head is turned towards a distraction. As if pulled away from the serious prayer of leaning forward, with hands more straight and conformed strictly in that prayer.
The distraction could be the doctor, or a military person with news of the one being prayed for.
She's also turned to the distration with a look of wearisome surprise.
There are other items in the portrait:
Cross, Icon or books (bibles?)
the gargoyle wooded top piece of the table, looking fiercely at her crotch area (i know a stretch) suggesting a young child about to be ripped from her life?
I'm no fashionista, but that is what I see in the Portrait, and may just suggest that she was in a mode of undress.
Quote from: Capt Spleen on July 10, 2011, 08:50:11 AM
"under/supportive garments" ......... This was the "Click" in my mind per the first "picture" painting
Paintings of the period (before moving pictures/television today) were the story tellers of the period.
Each one tells some kind of story>
The hint to this "fashion" may be in the story that is trying to be conveyed by the artist.
What story I see:
A woman praying for an enxtended period of time?
Was she praying for the return of a husband (she seems still young) so more unlikely, a son from war.
Or praying for a child, husband, mother/father on a death bed, or physicians bed, awaiting the recovery.
The extended time praying may explain the showing of the under/supportive garment idea. For if she had been praying at an extented period of time she might have removed the "over garment" to reduce the heat/fatigue.
As for the person holding a pose: Notice the hands, relaxed in prayer. Her head is turned towards a distraction. As if pulled away from the serious prayer of leaning forward, with hands more straight and conformed strictly in that prayer.
The distraction could be the doctor, or a military person with news of the one being prayed for.
She's also turned to the distration with a look of wearisome surprise.
There are other items in the portrait:
Cross, Icon or books (bibles?)
the gargoyle wooded top piece of the table, looking fiercely at her crotch area (i know a stretch) suggesting a young child about to be ripped from her life?
I'm no fashionista, but that is what I see in the Portrait, and may just suggest that she was in a mode of undress.
;D It's Mary Magdalene. The jar and the state of dress is a dead give away. A very popular medieval/Renaissance theme. Since not everyone could read, the jar was used to indicate what saint it was if you couldn't get the clues from how she was dressed.
You can read some more about biblical portraits here:
http://www.dagjeweg.nl/nieuws/dagje-uit/838/Maak%20kennis%20met%20de%20kuise%20Susanna
And see this portrait plus some others by the same painter here:
http://jeanmoust.com/index.cfm?page=Price-List&cat=4148&subcat=5719&aid=454416&item_start=1&the_start=1&nr=1&artist=Pietersz.,%20Pieter%20I
Ok, so with that information........
Mary Magdelene is being penitent, and is being notified that the tomb is empty, or that Christ has risen from the dead.
(Artitsts, crafters, marketers of the day must have work fast and furious to get that Crucfix carved in three days)
Either way, she may have been in an undressed manner, alluding to the original question.