RenaissanceFestival.com Forums

I've deleted the old thread, as it went south fairly quickly.

What I want is constructive input, so that I can put together another presentation to Terre after this season.

I plan on retiring in a couple of years (yeh, I'm 61 now and getting tired of the daily corporate grind).

Although an unpaid volunteer campgrounds manager for SWFF, I believe I have the "insight" on what folks want and how to achieve the goals.

You want to eliminate the Ravers? Okay, put forth a plan.

Same thing for keeping out the riff-raff. Remember that taking a stern plan may cause problems for innocent folks.

I strongly believe in limited access into the Patrons campgrounds. That causes problems with folks wanting to just come into the campgrounds to visit friends. There has to be a means for visitors to be approved by the visited group and granted limited access (not overnight).

I've received many comments on the cost for camping, concerning a per vehicle versus a per person camping pass. I think the present $20 per vehicle cost would be better established with a limit of $20 per a family camping fee, where the "family" is defined as two adults and two children. If you enter with four adults in the vehicle, then you pay more. By the same token, if you only have one adult in the vehicle (often the advanced scout for a group), you only pay $10.

Remember that the TRF camping fees have grown over the years, mainly for the labor to cleanup the campgrounds after each weekend. At SWFF, it's the managers (including me) who have to cleanup the mess on Monday. Ever have to pickup a camp toilet bag filled to the brim that was left by the port-a-john? Not very pleasant. When the contractor sucks down the Johns and the suction gets blocked by a bag, guess where they deposit it? Same with bags of trash that don't make it to the dumpster that people have to pass by when they leave.

Okay, give me your inputs. Name the problem and your intelligent solution. Remember that a solution will probably cause another problem. So if someone posts a solution you don't agree with, provide constructive critism and a counter solution. If this thread goes south again, it will get restarted. I'd love the group admin to grant me individual message deletion privs, to eliminate the trash and informative messages after incorporation into the initial message.

Initial message below
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Proposed Improvements to TRF Patron's Campgrounds
The following comprises a "dream list" of various modifications to the land and procedures.

Most of this is based on two years of experience in establishing, maintaining, and improving both the Patron's and Participant's campgrounds at the Sherwood Forest Faire.

This is a priority list, with security being the highest priority.

A.   Campgrounds Security

1.   Personal Access Control

Presently, there is no system to prevent non-campers from entering the campgrounds from the parking lot. There is the vehicle tag sold at the entrance or Quickie-Mart ($20 per vehicle), but that only identifies the vehicle. Anyone can wander into the campgrounds during the day or evening. Most thefts are during the day, when campers are attending the Faire. Most of the established groups leave one or more folks in their area during the day to maintain security, but the solitary camper has no such protection.

Recommend changing from a vehicle camping pass (presently $20 per vehicle) to an individual camping pass. At SWFF, we charge $10 per adult (14 and up) and $5 for children (6-13). We issue color coded wristbands, and only folks with wristbands may enter the campgrounds. Of course, when I laid out the Patron's campgrounds, I had the idea to keep access paths into the campgrounds as controlled as possible. We have the main access with a security booth where vehicles enter and leave, and another security booth for persons entering or leaving the campgrounds from/into the Faire. Only people with wristbands can enter the campgrounds. If an individual wants to "visit" the campgrounds, they either have to purchase a camping wristband or leave their driving license (to be returned after they complete their "visit").

2.   Vehicle Access Control

Presently any vehicle can travel up any of the lanes in the overflow parking lot and into the Patron's campgrounds.

Recommend cutting an additional road approximately half-way through the overflow parking lot, from row 1 to row 21 (?). Gravel from each row above this new road to be scraped down to pave the road and also form a barrier berm.

This new road will be the access to overflow parking during the day and exit traffic during the outflow at closing, so as not to restrict the outbound traffic.

This will restrict vehicle traffic into/out of the campgrounds to the paved roads on rows 1 and 21(?).

If TRF has a bulldozer and operator on staff, then costs are only fuel and labor. Otherwise estimate $80 per hour and 10 days to complete road building. This will also clean off the gravel and increase the future camping area, plus areas for the showers (modification B) and flushing toilets  (modification C).

B.   Showers

Very primitive showers can be constructed for about $6K per 6 stall structure. These are wooden structures elevated above ground level. Water flows out the base and downhill. Recommend two structures with 6 showers in each, installed around rows 6 and 16 in the overflow parking area that has been blocked off (suggestion A.2 above).

Costs are constructing the showers and running water and power piping from the closest point in the TRF area (think the flushies by the main entrance). Adding hot water heaters is about $300 per electric water heater.
?
C.   Flushing Toilets

This requires the most construction costs, as both water, water storage, and power infrastructures are required.

Waste tanks must be installed, best along the new access road, so that the contractor can empty them when they service the other port-a-johns in the campgrounds. Port-a-johns along the campgrounds paved road can be eliminated. Terre has indicated that the toilet can be tied into the present sewage treatment plany.

Toilets will be next to the showers (suggestion B), so only two rows of camping are blocked.

Costs are about $10K for each water storage tank and pump and $30K for each toilet structure (concrete block enclosure with 6 toilets). Additional cost are the daily cleaning crews.

D.   Reserved Camping Areas

One item that has proved out quite well at Sherwood Forest is reserved clan/group camping. Each clan/group maintains their area and they can leave structures (tents/kitchens/storage) in their area throughout the run of the Faire. This brings a more personal responsibility in maintaining their area and reduces overall maintenance costs. Groups will add trees/bushes/fences to show their area with no cost to the Faire.

This is another reason for expanding the campgrounds area. There is an increasing number of folks who have found that camping is the best alternative to enjoying a day at Faire and then having to face the outbound traffic.  They can enjoy a full day shopping and being entertained and then spend time in camp sharing stories and then being ready for the next day in Faire.

Added on 10/17

With the increased campgrounds area this year, there is increased demand on security maintaining law and order. With limiting access into the campgrounds, enforcement should be easier.

Ravers
Not sure how hard it is for the gate people to discern who is a raver and who isn't when they come in and set up camp.  While I am sure they have trained eyes for such things, they can't really turn them away on suspicion.  So what is the scenario now?  Is it when an incident occurs, security is called, witness the disturbance, give a warning?  If security has to come back, they watch the group pack up and escort their vehicles out the camp gate?

Then are the ravers on the road which makes them a danger to sober people driving?  I would hope there would be a swift sobriety check once they are out of the gate, before they get on 1774.  Or can they do a sobriety check before they get in the car?  I suppose it would depend on the situation, don't know much about drug/alcohol laws and what an officer has to see in order to do a search of a vehicle.  Can they search a tent in the grounds?

This really seems like something that would be best worked out by law enforcement and implemented.  While we can suppose and give talking points, it's all up to what can legally be done.

Camp Fee
All I know is that I don't want to pay more than what we pay now lol. :)

Personal Access for Visitors
Sounds like a lot of work for such a large camp.

Showers/Privies
It would be great if they invested in showers and flushies.  I know a lot of folks would be happy.

Reserved Camp
Don't want to be forced to meet any kind of attendance quota.  Other than that, reserving a spot sure would make a less stressful land grab.  People get pissy if you ask politely to not camp so close and they get pissy if you ask not so nicely, so either way that part of setting up camp sucks.  Plus security shouldn't have to deal with land rights arguments at the beginning of a weekend.  They could be scoping out trouble makers instead.

Best of luck with all of this Mike!  I will keep a look out for your progress posts.

Ravers- increase security, not just manpower, which would only need a small boost, but get them off their butts to be more proactive. If needs be I will start getting the names of officers I see sitting on their overpaid keesters who do the typical extra-duty job routine of sit-on-butt-and-soak-up-pay-from-civies-I-despise. I am sure a lot of my fellow current and former LEOs will be more than happy to do the same to get the ED moochers out and hire personnel- private or LE- who will actually do their jobs. I have seen numerous cases in past years where officers sat on their ATVs flirting with women while there was everything from underage drinking to drug use going on less than fifty feet away. They need to start being proactive instead of reactive, and respond to camper complaints with something more professional and useful than "that's the way faire is, deal with it."

This can be improved through a couple of means- 1) have a non-LEO security manager who works for the faire directly and oversees the security for the company, someone who has a background in LE and security operations, but is also not a current or former member of any of the departments involved so that there won't be the good-ol-boy network or bias. 2) Increase patrols of notorious trouble spots. The problem children tend to camp in the same general area each year, monitor them more closely and adapt patrol routes and times when they get wise to it and move or shuffle their illegal activities. 3) Call boxes as well as signs with the contact number for campground security direct, so that when something DOES happen people can get an immediate response. 4) Make it abundantly clear that any officers who want to soak up the 'easy money' and not do their jobs will be terminated. There are a dozen different LE departments in the immediate area- King, Grimes, Waller and Montgomery county sheriff's departments, Montgomery PD, Todd Mission PD (who should be a helluva lot more on the ball as this is their day job), Conroe PD, DPS, and a butt-tonne of constables precincts (who love their ED jobs). Don't touch HPD, they lose ED job sites to private firms all the time for incompetence and laziness, I speak from numerous encounters with them doing EP work. Additionally, having a "cop shack" like the one by the fence separating Patrons from Participants at or around the core hot spots (fire circle primarily) would create at least some presence deterrence for the problem people.

One thing that bothers me is this:
   " If an individual wants to "visit" the campgrounds, they either have to purchase a camping wristband or leave their driving license (to be returned after they complete their "visit")"
  While leaving their id is a good idea, it puts those who are 21 or older but look young in a compromised position. I for one get checked for id anytime i purchase alcohol or at faire when security sees me drinking. If I was there visiting and wanted a drink, I would be in quiet a situation if I were to be id'd.
A solution to this maybe, leave a deposit equal to camping fee and a visitor wrist band. Both to be returned when leaving? Not sure how well it would work but an idea.     

Simply put, enforce a Quiet Time curfew. Say 11 PM. If the "fringe rave partiers" can't party ALL night, they will quickly move on to other places to raise hades ALL night. I have never camped at TRF but it is looking to me on the sidelines that the fringe crowd has found a cheap and easy place to be a$$hats for the cost of a day or two Faire admission. And it is assured that the income from that is rapidly running off far more lucrative customers. Security of course will need to take each case at face value. A small gathering of several participants grooving to a few acoustical riffs in a lower setting is definitely not 12 gazillion decibels of NON Faire genres.

And many have complained that they do not want to sign up, get wristbands etc. Sorry but if you want these problems gone with the fringe participants simply using the faire as an easy excuse to have a "safe" place to party down with no actual faire participation, some sort of order must be in place so that security can do their jobs in the easiest fashion available to them. And do not blame the promoters or security, blame the fringe that is causing said problems. One wristband for a one day pass (different color per day ), a second for a two day and one WHITE one for a visitor (who must leave at midnight ). So that security can just pull up and say show me the bands and then they can move on quickly and not take up much of your or their time.

Again simply put, showers and flushies cost money. A LOT of money considering the contractor costs, upkeep, utility bills, stuff to maintain them, staff to maintain them and additional insurance, not to mention EPA standards. Not picking on Bonny whatsoever, I have heard this comment from a lot of sources and while they are a great and wonderful idea, someone is going to pay for them. Meaning campers. Price ANY campground anywhere for the difference between primitive and advanced style and it is clear enough. Nor does it help for anyone who has primitive camping to just leave their trash and/or any other sort of refuse lying around because they think that is staffs job. PICK UP YOUR OWN CRAP. You are allowed the privilege of even having campgrounds available to use at all. Many Faires will back me up on this I am sure because no camping is available at all. Respect the grounds you are allowed to use.

I have seen more than my share of many and vast assorted posts about the camping and TRF in general. Some valid, some not so much, period. I would suggest many look at it from the other side of the coin. The economy has hit one and all with one large sledgehammer. IMO, especially Faires as they are considered by most danes to be the far fringe of weekend entertainment, so they get cut loose first and foremost as extra money spent out. And has everyone forgotten that TRF offered their staff, grounds and utilities to help with the efforts in fighting the recent wildfires over there? None of that was free in the long run. Seeing people complain because TRF did not offer free child admission coupons this year was in a word, ludicrous. Perhaps they wanted the gate costs to go up instead.

So, cut them some slack and stop asking for thousands of dollars in upgrades, instead offer some constructive ideas for improvements.

But that is just my piece of eight on the matter. Someone who is trying tooth and nail to even beg the time off and attend with a 9 hr drive each way. And making sure I have enough money to spend at least a little on the vendors and entertainers at this faire who in turn I hope will keep on selling and participating in Faires at all. Yes I certainly read the how much do you spend at faire thread as well. I openly admit that we are a little more blessed than most but when I read of a huge number of those who spend less than $50 per faire, well...do you really think you are supporting your faire? IMO, you are just another dane tourist. Support your personal faires with at least constructive ideas, not just gimme ones. TELL them online or even better in person how much you appreciate them. And by all means, if you have a few dollars to spare, SPARE THEM. Many wonder why their favorite shows or vendors have left the scene. Bet if you were to ask them, many would say they were not making any money. Fantasy and Magick aside, it is of all bottom lines, a business. And businesses have to make money.

/soapbox off.


( And I do not envy you your job, MPullen. But I do thank you for your concerned efforts on the behalf of TRF )

*  Topic Stickied  *

Ladies and Gents - thank you for the informative responses.  We have a couple threads that wander a bit (all part of the fun), but let's keep this one as on-topic as possible.

We are most fortunate to have TRF management reviewing our input and maintaining a continuing dialogue with us.  The few times I've visited the campgrounds have been an enormous amount of fun, so I can only imagine the great experiences you veteran campers have had.  Looking forward to thoughtful input and continued improvement in camping at TRF.

Quiet time is not a bad idea.  And it does not mean bedtime either.  Just means that the loud music has to be turned off.

I proposed on another thread that no electric music outside of personal stereos be allowed in camp at all.  When they show up with their gigantic speaker and light setups security could come right over and tell them to take it down or leave. This would leave drum circles and music for just your camp untouched. And it would cut down on the undesirables in my opinion.

My quota statement is in reference to one of the rules Sherwood has/had on reserved camping which Mike helps run.  The set up there is clans work/improve the grounds they would like to hold, improvements are within guidelines, etc., and has/had an attendance minimum for each weekend faire is open.  Some clans are huge and can meet that but others cannot.

I wouldn't say reserved camping areas is elitist, it's just setting up semi-permanent residence for groups that have been attending for years and new groups that want to have that camp experience as well.  A lot of groups spend serious amounts of time, effort and money on their camps for ambience, convenience and so on.  Reserved areas are a boon for the groups and they know it and appreciate it.

Wasn't referring to profiling, just recognizing anyone that is coming back for more even though they were arrested or whatever say the previous weekend.  Either way, it is up to what can be done within the extent of the law.

Something that may help is for folks to explain their demographics along with their comments and suggestions.  This may help TRF management determine what their consticuency is.  In our case, we're a family of 4, with a teenager and a toddler.  We enjoy camping in Patrons and when we do we camp with an established clan/group because they are people we know and ejoy hanging out with, and for the "safety in numbers" effect.

There are limits to "personal freedoms" on TRF private property.  This is one thing I have never understood about enforcement vs non-enforcement by security personnel.  Should someone OD or die from alcohol consumption, you can bet there will be a lawsuit against George and TRF.  So why not be more proactive in an effort to prevent such a thing.  While an increase in security participation would initially turn some people off, I think in the long run it is something that 95% of campers will appreciate.

A "quiet" time is also very reasonable with some provisions.  I would feel pretty confident that drumming or acoustic instruments within a camp would probably be acceptable to most.  Giant speakers and stereos are and bright lights than can be heard from 100-200 yards away are probably not.  The problem is that this can turn into something subjective and I am not sure how to deal with that.

One thing I would hate to see change is access for camp visitors.  As it stands now, if we are not camping we pull our vehicle in to the McLot camp.  This allows us to visit with friends while everyone is garbing up.  After faire, we head back out to camp and shoot the bull until traffic dies down and then we leave.  Perhaps campers should be able to ask for "visitor" tags.  For example, if Bonny knows we're coming out, they could grab one of these hang tags for us and give it to us when we arrive to hang from our rearview.  This would then be a sign to security that this person will be here a while, but is not camping.  It gives you the further check that "Hey, I got this pass for this person, so they are my responsibility."  This would keep people from just handing these out to people they are unfamilliar with.

Yep Lech clan details is a good point.

We are with Clan McLotofus, we have about 90 or so members, some active in camping, some not.  Attendance for McLot varies by weekend.

At TRF, on the Big 3 we average about 40-45 people camping in our clan.  We are not a restrictive clan as far as not wanting our members to be a part of other clans.  So we have members that move around during the season and camp with who they want in order to spend time with people they may not see otherwise.

On other weekends we usually see a max of 15-20 people.

We are a mixture of tents and trailers.  We typically set our trailers and vehicles up to create borders (fence ourselves in so to speak) to keep the tents safe from cars driving through and such.

We traditionally camp in Rows 8-10, sometimes 7-9 if Safe Haven isn't there.



On a side note Lech:

CatAstrophy and Advent day tripped it to faire last Saturday but were not allowed entrance in the camp gate to park in the rows close to camp.  They had plans to visit folks after close of faire. So it looks like if you want to park by the camp area, a camp pass may need to be purchased.  Not sure if this is a new policy or if it was because management didn't expect enough of an attendance to warrant opening parking up on that side, but just wanted to let y'all know so you won't be surprised. :)

I am with Fenster on the "quiet time". Catch them before they have a chance to start and surely they will leave.

I know participants are not supposed to mingle with patrons at camp and as it is they have to basically sneak over to hang out. Would the no visitors provisions make it even harder for participants to visit? If I had friends drive 4 hours in to faire I should be able to see them when I am off the clock without feeling like I am breaking all kinds of rules.

Quote from: FaeHollow on October 18, 2011, 03:20:02 PM
I am with Fenster on the "quiet time". Catch them before they have a chance to start and surely they will leave.

I know participants are not supposed to mingle with patrons at camp and as it is they have to basically sneak over to hang out. Would the no visitors provisions make it even harder for participants to visit? If I had friends drive 4 hours in to faire I should be able to see them when I am off the clock without feeling like I am breaking all kinds of rules.

I think that as long as cast members are not in costume, or shop types are not trying to vend, then participants should be able to visit patron comping as much as they like.
We're already restricted from drinking while faire is open. It seems crappy to tell someone who has worked all day that they can't go visit a group of their peers on their off hours.

Regular participants, vendor & boothies, have an easier time of it as we can blend in , so to speak. Same with some of the lower ranked, less recognizable cast. Not so with the higher visiblity cast. Many years ago, George decreed, that in order to maintain the illusion of faire, higher visiblity cast was forbidden to mingle in patron camp on pain of termination. That actually has happened a few times over the years. Not recently tho. I would recommend any cast to weigh the odds first.

I agree about out of town guests that come to see you. Especially as you can only have limited interaction with them during the day.

I can see keeping up the illusion, but I also think that with the exception of a handful of folks who are definitely recognizable out of character/costume, it shouldn't be a problem. Also, I would think that somewhere in the neighborhood of 95% or more of the campers are the die-hard playtrons, and are 1. more likely to recognize someone out of costume/character, and 2. recognize the difference in the person and the character, and therefore do not want or expect the illusion to extend beyond the PUBLIC areas of the festival, much less into the Keep or either Campground.
I have a dear friend who, while not a performer herself, is in the shire on a participant pass as a performer's assistant. She drove out into the campground with me just before the end of the day on Opening Saturday, changed out of her garb into street clothes, and nobody was any the wiser as she visited and had dinner with us until he was finished with what he needed to do, which didn't require her presence, as it was an additional, trial thing, and not part of his contract.

Okay so back on topic:

Quiet time doesn't bother me as far as speakers and such are concerned.  I'd rather hear drums and such at camp.  I was just attempting to bring some lightness back to the thread.

Mike, where would you propose a reserved camping area be at the grounds?  What is on your mind with this?

A noise curfew is a good idea, with two caveats- 1) I'd move it to midnight, just to let the wilder playtrons and patrons get it all out of their system, since many of them aren't even hitting their camps till 2030 or so, and 2) I would either move fire circle into a tree-sheltered area to help mute it and extend the noise curfew there till 0200, or maybe have a less-strict noise curfew where it is at. Me personally, the drums actually help put me to sleep at night, it's the blasting rap and hip-hop being played at volumes that could neuter small animals like this last weekend that I have an issue with. A lot of the partiers at fire circle are playtrons and patrons, not ravers, so I want to give them an outlet for their party gene to be expressed without it becoming an issue for other campers. Also, have one smaller area that is exempt from the noise curfew causes the partiers to conglomerate there, which allows LE to focus their patrols more efficiently.

How would you (addressing everyone) think about another fire circle. Really I think three would be good. The new smoking area, first that is encountered driving into camp, the current circle, and a new one could be placed around E/3 on the map.  All circles are far enough apart that a sort of self segregation could take place.  Each of the three could also be used as relay points for security.  This could also thin the crowd around the current fire enough that security may have a chance to spot illegal activity, under age drink and the like. The circle is also may be counter productive with noise due to the circle normally being home of most noisy camps, but those who witnessed the very loud set up at -3/D know that is there is no real haven from this sort of thing.

I agree with everything being said in regards to a noise ban.  The fire pit would be exempt, naturally, because it does not involve piles of  speakers stacked taller than the average human.

Quiet time should only be applied to recorded music.  Acoustic instruments, reasonable drums, etc, would not produce enough noise to bother anyone camped a reasonable distance away. 
The distinction also gives a way to explain the rule to the inevitable sad ravers.  It's very cut-and-dry: no amplified music after midnight.

I figure it goes without saying that it would also apply to light pollution.  With this ONE chance to get away from all the garbage that we deal with on a daily basis, why waste it?  Do we really need to hear 'The Wall' again?  Can't we just enjoy the damn stars??

I'm all for having some sort of noise restrictions.  Generally speaking, there is little reason for anyone to have music at their campsite loud enough for the whole campgrounds to hear it.

Another Idea that just came to me.  If people are using tickets over and over to get carloads of people in just have the man at the gate stamp each ticket as they enter.  Then they could only use each ticket once.

Props to tickets stamping, or hole punching my be a bit easier.

Problems with that too. If someone has a legitimate reason to leave then the ticket would then be invalid & the patron is out the cost. Not cool if that was the only ticket they could afford for the season.

simple solution, done at several office buildings and colleges- write the last four of the LP of the vehicle on the tag in big letters, and check the tag when they pull up to make sure they compare. Takes about two seconds for a basic, competent rookie LEO to do.

Quote from: ravic on October 20, 2011, 11:47:16 PM
Problems with that too. If someone has a legitimate reason to leave then the ticket would then be invalid & the patron is out the cost. Not cool if that was the only ticket they could afford for the season.

Ravic, once you've checked in and paid to get in the campgrounds, you are issued a hangtag for your rear view mirror, and that lets you back into the grounds during the same weekend, if you need to run to town for something. 

Ravic, if you are referring to the cost of the Faire ticket and someone not being able to go to Faire that day:

If the Faire ticket is used to purchase camp pass for a given weekend, it could be marked (big, bold, and unmistakable) CAMP PASS PURCHASED but without a date. 

The Faire ticket itself would not have to be used that day, but any time thereafter.  It just could not be used to get another camp pass, thus achieving the supposed goal of not letting people camp who are not going to Faire. 

Just a general question, but something I've wondered about - after gate closing, do they do a check of cars remaining in parking areas at any time during the night or next morning?  So as to make sure there is no one still in the Fairegrounds who should not be there or people who end up in campgrounds without paying?

Anybody know?

Quote from: PollyPoPo on October 21, 2011, 03:02:40 AM
Just a general question, but something I've wondered about - after gate closing, do they do a check of cars remaining in parking areas at any time during the night or next morning?  So as to make sure there is no one still in the Fairegrounds who should not be there or people who end up in campgrounds without paying?

Anybody know?

I don't think so as I've stayed really late hanging with some shop owners before.

Can't say that I have ever seen them tow cars out of the parking lot, though I do believe there are "No Overnight Parking/Camping" signs.  But we have left vehicles there, though not overnight, but for several hours past gate closing before retrieving them and moving them back to camp.  Typically this happens if someone is not familiar with the campground and shows up on Saturday.  They will park with the normal faire traffic, find us in faire, then we will locate and move their vehicle later that night.  No issues with that so far.  Though it is rare for us to have to do this.

They won't tow anything left there until something like 3am or so according to what I've heard, and even then I have yet to see it. I've parked out there and hung out in camp till almost 4am, and my truck was still there :)

I have not camped at TRF for years, but would like to again. 

Demographics:  I am a few years older than MikeP, retired, and have a little money to spend, but not much.  I'm slow, but love to watch the kids run and young lovers dance; my only objection to scantily clothed women is that I'm jealous because I'm not young anymore and everything has fallen.  Happy drunks make me smile, mean ones do not.  I can stick my nose in the air with the best of the fuddy duddies, or kiss a leprechaun I've never met while strolling the lanes at TRF (on the cheek, of course).  In the past I have always camped with family, but at Sherwood was granted the opportunity to camp with a clan where I felt safe camping in the woods.  I try to be pleasant, but a person's right to swing his arm and hand ends about a foot from my nose (or several feet from my grandkids); so there you have it.

For what it's worth, here's my 2 cents on some issues raised (make that 50 cents worth – multiple posts with lots of words).  In a lot, I agree with what others have posted:

Fire Circles and music:

I agree with idea of three different permanent fire circles (even if there are no flames, each could be a center for specific music). 

1.   Circle where the big clans camp would probably naturally evolve into a voice, drum and pipes, etc.,  area – no electronics. 

2.   Fire circle in the family area would most likely close down earlier and in general be lower keyed. 

3.   By separating the electronic music from the human powered music, some of the problem encounters between burley inebriated Scotsmen and drug addled "nekids" might be avoided.  Might not be as interesting, of course. 

4.   As for the volume apparently reached last weekend (October 14-16), Faire management seems to be addressing that directly.   Management might be able to forestall such happenings by making, and enforcing, a policy regarding volume and time constraints, as well as limiting the laser show/strobe lights.  If Faire management chooses to not have any restrictions, then patrons would at least be warned and make attendance decisions accordingly.

Group Locations:

Unless there is a reason for the current arrangement of having two quiet areas (family and participant) on opposite sides of the entire area, I would suggest the following:

1.   Rearrange camping facilities to move family area close to Faire grounds so that the quiet family and quiet inside participant areas would be adjacent.   

2.   Designate the outer-most area as electronic music permitted.  I believe that would be what is now family camping.  The train should add to their music experience.  It would also distance the light show more from the quiet areas.

3.   Center area would be for non-electronic music and general camping.

4.   Changing the areas might result in a weekly "land grab" by the established clans (kind of how they do now), or something more stable could be worked out with the large groups of people, such as designated areas as in Sherwood.  TRF is a mature faire and  I don't know how anyone could go about creating dedicated clan areas for setting up sites and leaving tents up through season.  (I am afraid Sherwood might hold an informal patent on that feature.)

5.   An empty area or "road" between each major area might be of value.  Campers could wander back and forth between groups or choose to stay in their comfort zone.  Whatever floats your boat.   

6.   Like it or not there are at least three distinct groups of campers out there.  As much as we would all like to come together, head bang in unison, and kumbaya, sometimes those groups step on one another's toes, music, and sleep.  Why not give them each a little space to dance. 

7.   The real trouble-making riff-raff problem could be greatly reduced by changing the pricing structure (separate post from me), as well as concentrated law enforcement.  Catch a thief, arrest them; whacked out on drugs, go to medical or jail, whichever applies, etc.  Make it uncomfortable and costly, they will go elsewhere. 

Pricing:  (My 10 cents worth here)

(Premise – A big Faire is expensive to run and to attend.  No way around it any more.  If someone wants to camp, they are going to have to pay.  It is just a matter of how much and whether someone can afford it.  Sorry.)

1.   TRF has a huge attendance.  Free camping is no longer useful as an inducement to get more attendees.

2.   Added income by closing up loopholes would most likely offset the increased cost for extra employees and "bookkeeping" regarding passes.  

3.   To prevent freeloaders and non-camping thieves, as MikeP indicated, erect some kind of barrier between camping area and general parking.  

4.   Carload passes can be eliminated and campers pay "by the head" to pay for upgrades to camping and to ensure everyone pays a share of the cost of camping.

5.   Set camping price to $10 per adult, $5 for kids 5-12 or so.  4 years and under can get in free.  Maybe offer one kid's pass free for each adult pass bought to help out families.  (Please note, Faire has been advertising more and more targeting families, so giving them a discount would fit with the intent of management.)  

6.   Everyone (except 4 years and under) needs a Faire ticket in hand when they buy their individual camp pass or be required to buy one at the same time.

7.   When camp pass is purchased, Faire ticket could be marked (big, bold, and unmistakable) CAMP PASS PURCHASED or really big hole punched so they cannot be reused to obtain camping passes on other weekends, nor passed to others coming in so they can get their camp passes without buying Faire ticket.  

8.   Not sure if it is done now, but TRF could offer a seasonal faire/camping pass like Sherwood does now.  Even at full price of $10 per weekend, the convenience to people who camp frequently might be worth the cost.  Or in the same line, offer to sell group camping tickets preseason in conjunction with the Faire tickets sold now.  Tickets bought at the same time as camping passes would, of course, be marked CAMP PASS PURCHASED.  Anything to speed up the process at the door.

9.   Identifying Faire ticket as already processed for camping would ensure one ticket for one camp pass, but the Faire ticket could be used another time (as pointed out, someone might have a valid reason not to attend faire that weekend).   It would still achieve the supposed goal of not letting people camp who are not going to Faire.  As for camp pass cost, that cost would be gone, just as if someone goes into Faire, then has to leave 15 minutes later.  Once you're in, you don't get money back.

10.   Camp passes can be marked with weekend number or date so they cannot be reused.  (Prepurchased group tickets would be exchanged for the specific weekend when the camper arrives.)

11.   Restrict access to campgrounds to those people with passes or who pay the equivalent of camp pass (if they have a valid ticket) or camp pass plus cost of ticket.  

12.   If someone is visiting, they are still using the camping area.  They buy a camp pass.  If they leave before a given time they could get back all or a portion of the camp fee.

13.   Participants wanting to visit "could" show their Ids instead of paying, but if their employment agreement says they are not supposed to be in patron campgrounds that's a whole different problem depending on how much they want to visit.  

14.   The bracelets used at SWFF might work instead of paper passes but some people do not like wearing them.

15.   Put in place a policy of "leave camp without your camp pass and you pay again" (or leave deposit equal to camp pass and ticket while you retrieve your camp pass from campsite).  Unless you're with a friend who is willing to run into camp and bring your pass back with them, showing their own pass at the same time.  

16.   Faire could use the services of employees as gate keeps and sellers of camp passes, etc, and not law officers.  (I do not know if they are doing that now or not.)  This might offset some of the added costs of stricter control of campgrounds and at the same time free up law enforcement to do their jobs.

Camp Improvements:

1.   Add physical barriers for security and ensuring equitable revenue.  Make it seem more secure - more people camp; more people camp - more revenue to pay for improvements; more improvements – more people want to camp.

2.   Flush toilets would be a major improvement over the port-a-potties situation.  Centrally located and highly lighted, open area in view of law enforcement as they make their rounds (gonna have a few drunks fall asleep sitting there).  Might also serve as a drop-off point to pass lost and/or malfunctioning campers onto the officers for safekeeping. 

3.   Over time flush toilets would save money over port-a-potties.

4.   Showers would be great; however, unless they are installed at the same time as toilets,  I would seriously suggest that toilets go in first.  Without toilets, there might be a concern of people taking a shower and, e'hem, bodily fluids could be "inadvertently" mixed in with the shower water outflow.  Might or might not be a problem, depending on where the outflow goes.   

Law Enforcement and Security Perceptions.

1.   Faire may be private property, but the laws of Texas still apply. 

2.   LEOs need not investigate every smell that might be maryjane, but need to act on any obvious drug use or sales going on.  Just saying "oh, it's just faire" does not cut it coming from law enforcement.  At least tell them to put the bong away before they go to sleep (said with tongue only slightly in cheek).

3.   Faire management is paying for law enforcement presence.   Officers wandering down the lanes shouldn't be a problem or infringe on personal freedom to have a good time, get loud, etc.     

4.   Groups having to leave someone in camp each day to specifically guard from roving thieves merely reinforces the idea that camp is a lawless no-man's land.  Was it ever really that?  Is that the image TRF wishes to portray?

5.   Civilians handling security problems may, sooner or later, lead to legal problems and law suits directed at those civilians.  Asking, gently or emphatically, that a drunk move along is one thing; body blocking a drugged out fool is another. 

6.   Officers on duty at the Faire would handle problems on-site if possible (only as allowable by their authority) but process chargeables to appropriate law enforcement as jurisdiction dictates.   A little high from being too close to the smokers?  Sleep it off.  Carrying enough to supply half the camp, go to jail.  Caught stealing?  Hang 'em from the nearest – oh, sorry, wrong century. 

7.   Instead of campers trying to find the "home" of obviously drugged out teens (or even grandmas when it happens), they could be escorted to the officers on site; said officers would then be responsible and be required to take appropriate action.  Lost drunks might be able to just sleep it off in camp.  Drug users lose their stash, get processed through the system, maybe pay a fine, jail, or, worse, Mommy and Daddy get called to pick them up.

8.   As for officers watching idly while civilians attempt to restrain someone out of control, hey, there are a lot of cell phones and cameras out there.  These situations are simply law suits waiting to happen.  (Actually I am surprised we have not heard more on the incident of the naked guy first weekend.)

9.   I don't know about Texas law, but in Illinois some categories of law enforcement (court officers)  had the option to interfere in what they perceived as illegal; others (cops on the beat) had an absolute duty to interfere. 

10.   The internet is everywhere now; the supervisors of any officers working TRF are reading these forums, too.  We may not be privy to what's happening, but sooner or later something is going to hit the fan. 

I hope this is not too far off topic, but my post does concern the campgrounds.

I'm sure RVs, generators and loud music blasting with a full night club atmosphere does far more to shatter any illusions than patrons or cast members visiting friends in the campgrounds after hours.  

I don't complain about that rule, I don't go to the patrons campgrounds often, perhaps twice in the last several years, but banning participants from patrons camp really makes little sense, especially in light of the fact that the "Rennie" community includes both patrons and participants.  Mixed groups of both patrons and participants leave TRF and meet in Magnolia for dinner as it is, we see each other at the Shell station, we communicate on Internet forums and Facebook, groups of us get together in the off season.  It is really not like we don't know each other or some perception will be damaged if a prominent cast member visits a clan's camp.  

Many of us, participants and patrons alike are friends, some are family, and often we only see each other at Faire where our interactions are limited by our roles as vendors and performers where we are asked by TRF to remain in character (which is of course why we are there in the first place).  It would be nice to be able to let my hair down a little so to speak and have some OOC interactions with certain friends after hours and off the grounds themselves.

A rule saying cast members or vendors visiting camp must behave appropriately in public, no vending, and not do anything detrimental to TRF's public image with proper sanctions put in place would seem more reasonable.  Perhaps requiring cast members to appear in camp only in street clothes and not represent themselves as employees of TRF in any way (other than showing a pass to the guard at the shack, see below) would also be reasonable.  

My opinion (because I know TRF management reads this):  Stick a guard near the dividing fence at one of the pedestrian gates, maybe the one nearest the vehicle exit that participants use nearest the campground and check passes.  It also has the side effect of adding another static guard post that someone (from either side) could go to if help was needed and increasing LEO visibility (again good on both sides).  No need to allow participant vehicle traffic through the patron's gate to camp, no special passes or privileges.  TRF doesn't have to encourage such visits or do much to accommodate them other than placing the guard, which also has benefits to TRF and the patrons who camp, but allowing the visits and providing a legitimate gateway for them doesn't seem much to ask.  

Good Grief!

Now we have some on topic, rational, intelligent, reasonable suggestions.

Okay, what happened, who are you people?

Actually, thank you all (especially PollyPoPo for some great stuff). I'm sure TRF management hears your concerns. Some things can be done quickly, others take months or years.

For those who have not attended Sherwood Forest Faire, let me give you some background. My involvement began about a year before opening, when the grounds were still dense woods and with only some of the fencing installed. The owners had a layout of the Faire area, but the campgrounds were still not firmed up. A rough road was cleared through the campgrounds, but is was the sugar sand so only a few vehicles could drive in the area.

I volunteered my services as the campgrounds manager (unpaid, but still rewarding). I recommended additional roads to form the present layout. The owners had gravel laid to form passable roads (BTW, gravel is not cheap) and we had port-a-johns and trash dumpsters the first year. I also requested that the campgrounds have an area available for reserved camping by the groups I knew from TRF. This was granted and I contacted everyone I knew, plus visited camps at TRF to sell them on the idea. It was slow at first, but took off rapidly before opening weekend Year One. Groups knew they had to work hard to clear their area, but they had a guaranteed area they could call their own, plus keep tents/trailers/etc setup throughout the faire season. Thus groups only had to haul in the supplies for the weekend and have everything else ready to go. Some of the groups get the idea of using their area and maintaining the site, so there has been a couple of groups either losing their claim or voluntarily giving up their claim.

It's now Year Three approaching and the reserved camping area is fairly full. I have an area that I have been holding that will be available for two or three fair sized groups (15-20 members).

We now have showers (with <gasp> hot water) and flush toilets (yeh, we have to reconfigure the access for the campgrounds during the evenings after closing, but give us time).

Access into the campgrounds is rigidly controlled. We have a dedicated booth attendant who ensures people have Faire tickets or purchases them to be able to purchase the camping wristband. Only people with camping wristbands can enter the Patron campgrounds. Exception is folks with Participants passes, as we have no problem with Participants either camping in or visiting the Patrons campgrounds. Folks who have purchased a Friends-of-Faire pass get a free camping wristband each weekend. Generally, everyone in the Patrons campgrounds must have a wristband (which can also be on a mug, belt-loop, or whatever as long as it is visible). We do not have a law enforcement presence in the Patrons campgrounds (unless they are called in). We have a dedicated security force of Faire staff members who frequently make rounds.

We have had only a few incidents in the reserved Patrons campgrounds, which were quickly resolved with a couple requiring law enforcement officers to come onsite. Never-the-less, law enforcement officers can (and will) make tours through the campgrounds during the day and evenings. They are not paid by the Faire and we have no intentions of hiring LEO for security unless things get beyond our control.

In summary, the layout and operation of the Patrons campgrounds at SWFF were established before the first opening weekend, but we are still refining them as we discover new needs. Changing the TRF Patrons campgrounds is more of a challenge, as things are about 20X more complex. First concern is upgrading security without degrading camper enjoyment. Anything else is secondary.

Keep up the good suggestions. My advice is not to attack the suggester. Attack the suggestion with concrete counter proposals. Don't say the idea is stupid - state why/how and give a better idea. Most of you have years of experience in the campgrounds and have seen the good and the bad.

Wish I could camp this year at TRF, but company vacation time is about used up and cash is short. See ya at SWFF in 2012.

simple question: does Todd mission have noise control ordinance?

If so, could it be enforced on the extremist loud speaker to the whole campground freakinoids? at 1001 Dreams was way too loud and too late!!!

Participants have an 11p quiet time rule in camp, but that fence between sure did nothing to allow sleep for the working crew!

I do so like the idea of moving the partiers way out to edge of camping!

here's a thought- since the train runs by it anyway, move the party camping to where "quiet camping" is now, and switch them out :)

Quote from: Breandan on October 24, 2011, 01:51:32 PM
here's a thought- since the train runs by it anyway, move the party camping to where "quiet camping" is now, and switch them out :)

It was actually over there years ago

Quote from: Breandan on October 24, 2011, 01:51:32 PM
here's a thought- since the train runs by it anyway, move the party camping to where "quiet camping" is now, and switch them out :)

An amount of space would be needed for sound to not be bothersome.  Also to discourage the wondering drunk from making the journey.  It would help if we knew why the quite camp was moved as Riot stated.  Maybe then we find the best workaround.

Quote from: Taylor Blu on October 24, 2011, 02:43:43 PM

Quote from: Breandan on October 24, 2011, 01:51:32 PM
here's a thought- since the train runs by it anyway, move the party camping to where "quiet camping" is now, and switch them out :)

An amount of space would be needed for sound to not be bothersome.  Also to discourage the wondering drunk from making the journey.  It would help if we knew why the quite camp was moved as Riot stated.  Maybe then we find the best workaround.

I'm sure it isn't the only reason, but I know there was a situation with some rennies and the train. I don't know the details as it happened on a weekend I was not there. I'm sure there are other reasons too, but I know it was the year right after this incident that the camping was moved.

one word: fence.

Well, two words: fence, Darwinism

those are pretty much the choices at this point

Exactly.
-thinning the herd
-chlorinating the gene pool

Seriously tho, the train blows loud and long for more than the entire length of the grounds, starting near the participant's back road.
If you're out of it enough to be caught there at that time, that's not bad luck, that's the hand of fate.

Quote from: Riot on October 24, 2011, 02:52:11 PM

Quote from: Taylor Blu on October 24, 2011, 02:43:43 PM

Quote from: Breandan on October 24, 2011, 01:51:32 PM
here's a thought- since the train runs by it anyway, move the party camping to where "quiet camping" is now, and switch them out :)

An amount of space would be needed for sound to not be bothersome.  Also to discourage the wondering drunk from making the journey.  It would help if we knew why the quite camp was moved as Riot stated.  Maybe then we find the best workaround.

I'm sure it isn't the only reason, but I know there was a situation with some rennies and the train. I don't know the details as it happened on a weekend I was not there. I'm sure there are other reasons too, but I know it was the year right after this incident that the camping was moved.

Yes, the death march was from the present quiet campgrounds. I believe the incident involved pumpkins on the railroad tracks. Or was it folks passed out along the path to the campgrounds? Those 30 rows were hell to stagger through in the dark.

The problem with switching the present campgrounds assignment is that some of the groups (Chaos for example) have some very personal reasons for their area. I will not state the reasons in an open forum, but it involves deceased members.

The problem isn't rows 1-8, as those group areas tend to be fairly quiet (yeh, we have had some private parties with drumming and some interesting events (unqueenly, topless slip-and-slide, Loki contest, etc.)). There were those strange folks 3 years ago that setup the tall teepee with gas blasts around row 6 playing techno music, and the sadomasochists with the whipping post around row 4. The problems are around the fire circle area (row 11) and back around row 20 on the backside. That's where most of the LEO involvement occurs.

MikeP,

Back on topic, sort of anyway.

Perhaps this forum topic might get more concrete ideas if all of us out here had an idea of WHY TRF management provides a non-participant camping area.  To be honest, I do not know.  I am simply asking the question, not making any judgment. 

Was it originally intended to promote attendance at the Faire itself?  Is that its purpose now and in the future?

Is it intended to be an inclusive area for all types of campers with only a tenuous connection to the Faire itself? 

All types of campers would include, at the extremes, the following:

a.   Families with children and/or grandparents;

b.   Those who wish a place to collapse after a day in Faire who may not even be aware of noise levels;

c.   Renfaire friends who gather for a drink and a holler around their fire (or lanterns);

d.   Anybody who wants to gather around a big bonfire (hopefully) and drum circle for dancing and general merrymaking?

e.   People who use the main fire/drum circle for electronics and serious partying.

f.   Partiers who are willing to pay the camp and Faire entrance fees to get a big place to pull all-nighters with no legal or physical constraints on their activities.

The TRF official website gives little guidance other than no guns, no fires, pick up your own trash, and cops come around sometimes. 

Perhaps TRF management could share  their vision of the use of the campsite.  Then suggestions could be more forthcoming.

PollyPoPo, good questions.

Unfortunately, my history only goes back about 12 years, about the time the present family campgrounds came into being and the groups moved into the newly opened area we now have.

For pre-history, we would need some of the folks from that era (The Boners come to mind) to step up and tell the tall tales. I doubt Rooster is on this board, but there are other Boners around.

In the years I started coming to TRF (before camping), Chaos was known as the enforcers of the Patrons campgrounds. Law and order (sort of) was maintained. Chaos marched in the noon parade in full force and armor and their camping area was the center of envy for the other groups. There were few or none RVs/trailers in the campgrounds, as most were young and tent camping was not a problem. Due to the death of some of the Chaos founders and multiple changes in leadership, things have changed. Loss of the Chaos gathering point in-Faire at the Castle (situation which those who know - know, and those who don't know - don't need to know).

We are all a "few" years older and the number of RVs/trailers grow every weekend (even a local company rents them delivered to the campgrounds). Air mattresses, sleeping bags, lanterns, and cold showers have given way to more comfortable dwellings.

Getting back on topic (yeh, even I wander off topic)

Having a Patron campground was probably both a monetary and legal decision. Other Faires in the area (Scarby, LARF) did not have Patrons campgrounds. Excalibur started having Patrons campgrounds at the original site and at the new one, which had a good turnout before things went bust. I believe LARF has now started a Patrons campgrounds (taking over the old Participants campgrounds).

The reality is, more folks will come in if they can stay the weekend and not have to "day-trip" or stay at local motels. I know that my first two years were day-trippers (coming in the morning and leaving near closing) where I missed many of the performances. For the next two years, I stayed at a motel in the area (20 minute drive versus normal 90 minute drive). Since a golf tournament was also happening those weekends, the motel prices were high (and then they started adding the Houston entertainment taxes for the new football, baseball, and basketball arenas). Then I started tent camping. On opening weekend, after starting to setup tent, four individuals stepped forth and offered to move my site out of their area (which I had no idea existed). Spent 4 other weekends that season at a seemingly better location, as it was under a tree and a nice sandy spot (row 5 in the middle). That was when I discovered the "River of Death" when the air mattress became a water bed and things sort of floated.

Next season, met folks from the Drunken Gnomes, who invited me to join their encampment. Things went far better after that. Now I am inducted in Chaos, The Claw, Drunken Gnomes, High Ship Enibration and have friends in several other clans. The established clans pretty much know the folks in the other neighboring clans and keep an eye out for the neighborhood.

So, I believe having a Patrons campgrounds is a sound business move. Folks can attend Faire all day, spending money and interacting with the Performers, and then have a safe evening in camp without having to drive intoxicated (thus the legal reality) and then be ready to come back into Faire Sunday (yeh, not early though).

This thread is intended to explore the problems that folks have experienced and their best ideas on how to improve/eliminate the problem.

I started the Patrons campgrounds at SWFF knowing the TRF problems and built solutions into the layout and operation of the Patrons campgrounds. Now, as I get ready to retire, I would love to do the same thing for Patron camping at TRF. Give me your suggestions.

However, please report existing problems to the TRF staff. Please provide facts to them, so that they can evaluate and respond accordingly. A report that "the port-a-johns were out of toilet paper Sunday morning" deserves a different response than "group came in Saturday morning 2 AM, started blaring music, with teens drinking/smoking drugs and stumbling into neighboring group areas".

How about raised pad for tent using campers to keep away moisture and perhaps some bugs? I'm guessing the only material that's going to last is concrete. Maybe a limited no of them every or every other row?

Quote from: dreamwalker on October 29, 2011, 10:08:02 PM
How about raised pad for tent using campers to keep away moisture and perhaps some bugs? I'm guessing the only material that's going to last is concrete. Maybe a limited no of them every or every other row?

That sounds nice in theory, but likely would not work. For one, how are you going to stake down your tent to concrete? What size would you make the pads since tents come in a range of sizes?

I love coming down to TRF and one of my favorite parts is camping. My suggestion would be perhaps some more garbage cans or small dumpsters. It's quite sad when you leave on Monday mornings and see the massive piles of trash. Flushies would be awesome, but in the meantime, perhaps some more porta-potties. They get full rather quickly and are usually out of toilet paper quite early in the evening.

Quote from: Sitara on October 30, 2011, 01:09:36 AM
That sounds nice in theory, but likely would not work. For one, how are you going to stake down your tent to concrete? What size would you make the pads since tents come in a range of sizes?

I love coming down to TRF and one of my favorite parts is camping. My suggestion would be perhaps some more garbage cans or small dumpsters. It's quite sad when you leave on Monday mornings and see the massive piles of trash. Flushies would be awesome, but in the meantime, perhaps some more porta-potties. They get full rather quickly and are usually out of toilet paper quite early in the evening.

I agree as far as the concrete slabs, that's kind of a bad idea.  Not to mention wear and tear on the bottom of your tent, dirt is softer than concrete, etc.

Also, this year, pirate weekend anyway, There were dumpsters out there there I don't remember seeing before.  Also, there seemed to be plenty of toilet paper in the portapotties, which frankly surprised the hell out of me. 

when we were out opening weekend, I never encountered a lack of toilet paper. Friday when we arrived around noonish, there were 3 or 4 spare rolls on the shelves up in the corner of the porta pots, and that seemed to last, at least until they were cleaned on Saturday, then Saturday there were several rolls again after cleaning. One of the standard things that goes in my camp supplies is a roll of tp, to have especially for those late Saturday night runs to the privvy!

I would think that the concrete would ONLY be useful for leveling campers, and not a good idea at all for tents.

Since we left by about 3:30 in the rain opening Sunday, I can't really speak to the mess left behind by others at the END of the weekend, but on my way into faire that morning, there was a pretty good selection of abandoned stuff, some of it trash, some of it salvageable stuff. I know that we cleaned up our trash and took the bags over to the nearest trash collection site, and left the tied bags beside the already full trash receptacles. The main improvement I would make would be dumpsters... maybe not totally in place of the existing trash cans, but perhaps a few strategically placed.  I think flushies sound wonderful, as do showers, but considering the mess that's in the porta pots every day, I would think that keeping the flushies & showers clean & operating properly could easily become a nightmare to deal with.

Quote from: dreamwalker on October 29, 2011, 10:08:02 PM
How about raised pad for tent using campers to keep away moisture and perhaps some bugs? I'm guessing the only material that's going to last is concrete. Maybe a limited no of them every or every other row?

I see your point.  But from what I have seen at a lot of campgrounds around the US, is the use of pea gravel for tent pads.  But from the few times that I have camped out in a tent in the rain, there really was not all that much of a moisture issue.

Quote from: raevyncait on October 30, 2011, 10:40:58 AM
I think flushies sound wonderful, as do showers, but considering the mess that's in the porta pots every day, I would think that keeping the flushies & showers clean & operating properly could easily become a nightmare to deal with.

Anyone down for double camping fees?
Also, would you really use a public shower after 800 other strangers?  Sounds horribly unsanitary to me, do you realize what some people DO in the shower?
Seriously, baby wipes, along with a bar of soap and an extra gallon or two of water is far superior to paying for showers that you likely won't want to use anyway...

EDIT: Consider the cost of a) building the sowers, b) cleaning/maintaining the showers, and c) paying the water bill for thousands of people showering, not to mention every schmuck who comes unprepared and fills his water containers solely from the showers.  Lights would be required.... We're talking a serious expense here, and we as campers would be paying for it forever...

I think we should start with the horse before cart. The maintence and costs issues  biggest issues with showers. And I 2nd on the thought of using a shower that could quickly have the poetential to rival the showers at a frat house.

That being said maintence and security for flushing toilets ( i.e. vandalisim issues mainly) will already be present. It will take constant watching, supervision & maintence to keep them from looking like 3rd rate truckstop bathrooms. Indoor bathrooms might make it more comfortable for parents to change their infants also, if fold down thingys were put it. Just a thought.

Ther also might need to be 2 of them, one for patron side one for particpants. Also realize the traffic they are going to get, esp. for the ladies side. Wold it be in ground lines or septic tank? Those get backed up very fast and the results are not pretty.

Also, since thee are season passes to the Faire why not season campground tags? It might save a little hassle of having that much cash in hand every weekend. They could clearly have the year on them (so you couldnt use an old one) and  have ones for patrons or particpants. 

Some people will not like this, but BAN GENERATORS (except for medical reasons).  One that ran all night every night near Phoenix Risen was so loud it drowned out Zaubon's alarm clock.

Quote from: KeeperoftheBar on October 31, 2011, 08:20:48 AM
Some people will not like this, but BAN GENERATORS (except for medical reasons). 

WOW, wouldn't that be AWESOME!
My party and I gleefully approve of this message.

Quote from: dreamwalker on October 31, 2011, 12:15:45 AM
I think we should start with the horse before cart. The maintence and costs issues  biggest issues with showers. And I 2nd on the thought of using a shower that could quickly have the poetential to rival the showers at a frat house.

That being said maintence and security for flushing toilets ( i.e. vandalisim issues mainly) will already be present. It will take constant watching, supervision & maintence to keep them from looking like 3rd rate truckstop bathrooms. Indoor bathrooms might make it more comfortable for parents to change their infants also, if fold down thingys were put it. Just a thought.

Ther also might need to be 2 of them, one for patron side one for particpants. Also realize the traffic they are going to get, esp. for the ladies side. Wold it be in ground lines or septic tank? Those get backed up very fast and the results are not pretty.

Also, since thee are season passes to the Faire why not season campground tags? It might save a little hassle of having that much cash in hand every weekend. They could clearly have the year on them (so you couldnt use an old one) and  have ones for patrons or particpants. 

Fortunately, participants are already fairly well covered.
There are parti showers, tho not nearly enough, and the hot water supply is an issue, but they always seem pretty well maintained.
Participants also already get a pass that gives us access to parti camping and the backstage for the season.
Then again, every participant gets a background check and is authorized by their employer, whether cast  or vendor.

I think for patron camping, depending on the construction, proper privies and/or showers could be maintained without too much difficulty.
It would definitely take some vigilance on the part of "good" campers to make it work, but it is entirely possible.
All of the regular onsite privies are basically concrete bunkers with stalls, and a couple of drains in the floor and hoses kept in cabinets.
Whenever there is a "problem" they just hose everything to the drains. More serious issues get proper chemical scrubs.

Quote from: KeeperoftheBar on October 31, 2011, 08:20:48 AM
Some people will not like this, but BAN GENERATORS (except for medical reasons).  One that ran all night every night near Phoenix Risen was so loud it drowned out Zaubon's alarm clock.

Maybe, have a generator curfew for the noisier ones?

Because banning them is not even a realistic idea.
There are many that aren't noisy at all and punishing many for the problem of few is not fair at all.
Older generators tend to be quite noisy, but the newer ones are not, such as Riot and Lerxt's. M
Many people cannot use their campers or anything else without that electricity.

Maybe something allong the lines of from row ten up no restrictions on generators,  from row ten down no generators allowed.  Using the old drum/bond fire circle as a break point would seem to make sense.   Should be pretty easy to put up signs on the road saying beyond this point there is a generator restriction.   Then clans/people can decide if they want to camp in an area that allows generators or not.

Not a bad idea regarding generator/restriction areas..that would put a stop to the whining about a new regulation.  Also, loud/not loud is subjective; even people with outrageously loud generators will deny the sound if it means they'll have to turn off their precious electricity...

To put it frankly:  I feel like it's necessary to point out that this is still a camping experience.  Meaning you won't be in the lap of luxury the way that you would be at home.  Hotel rooms have flushing toilets, running water, hot showers, level surfaces, paved roads, etc., and you pay for all of it. 
We pay $20 to camp ALL WEEKEND.  The luxury changes that are being proposed would change that forever, probably to more like $20/night if not more (which would end it for me, and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one).  I think that it is important to remember that we are still camping, 'roughing it' if you will.  Some of the luxuries that we all enjoy at home are absent in this environment.

Realistically, if those luxuries are a requirement for you, it is better to stay in a hotel or get an RV.  IMO, it makes no sense to go camping if being dirty is a problem.  I've said it before but it bears repeating: wet wipes, a bar of soap, and some extra water works wonders.  Liquor doesn't hurt either.

Not to get off topic much I have to say I agree with xed while I camp in a popup not a tent I don't have or bring a generator because I like having a weekend without all the electronics in my normal life.  I think having a break is a good comprise which doesn't cost anything but the cost of a few signs and still allows everyone now camping to camp with maybe just moving locations around a little.  I'd even be happly if just the new sub zero section was generator free since then most of the major clans wouldn't have to move.

But some of those clans actually USE generators...

A dumping station with a pay-to-dump setup- either via an attendant, or the automated purchased-code systems like Flying J and Love's truck stops have- would be A) handy for RV and trailer campers, and B ) provide a little extra revenue to cover the campground expenses. I had to drive all the way to the Flying J on Richey to dump my tanks ($10, not too bad), and would rather have paid $15 for the convenience of dumping right there and taking the trailer straight home.

Quote from: Breandan on October 31, 2011, 10:50:25 PM
A dumping station with a pay-to-dump setup- either via an attendant, or the automated purchased-code systems like Flying J and Love's truck stops have- would be A) handy for RV and trailer campers, and B ) provide a little extra revenue to cover the campground expenses. I had to drive all the way to the Flying J on Richey to dump my tanks ($10, not too bad), and would rather have paid $15 for the convenience of dumping right there and taking the trailer straight home.

We are looking into buying a trailer (praying for next season) and that is one of the things that has me dragging my feet. I agree, I would gladly pay $15 for the convenience of a dump station. I would also pay for water for my shower tanks instead of what having a loaded trailers weight may do to my gas mileage.

*I would also pay for rum out there too... but thats a different story*

Quote from: *Teach* on November 01, 2011, 09:42:56 AM

Quote from: Breandan on October 31, 2011, 10:50:25 PM
A dumping station with a pay-to-dump setup- either via an attendant, or the automated purchased-code systems like Flying J and Love's truck stops have- would be A) handy for RV and trailer campers, and B ) provide a little extra revenue to cover the campground expenses. I had to drive all the way to the Flying J on Richey to dump my tanks ($10, not too bad), and would rather have paid $15 for the convenience of dumping right there and taking the trailer straight home.

We are looking into buying a trailer (praying for next season) and that is one of the things that has me dragging my feet. I agree, I would gladly pay $15 for the convenience of a dump station. I would also pay for water for my shower tanks instead of what having a loaded trailers weight may do to my gas mileage.

*I would also pay for rum out there too... but thats a different story*

You could always fill the water tank in Plantersville or a few other surrounding areas rather than hauling it all the way down here.  it's just a 20 minute detour.

I camp with a RV.  Now i only run my generator a couple of hours here and there to charge my batteries.  So a ban on generators would really suck.  But also, telling folks that this is camping it and that all should rough it is not right either.  We all camp in our own ways.

That said, modernizing parts of the campgrounds would be expensive, but it would also pay for itself.  I used to go up to Alto to Shiloh Ridge ATV park every year.  They offer some water and power sites with out charging a fortune.  Usually $40 on the big group weekend.  You dont build up a business expecting a return in a year.  TRF has been here for many years and upgrading the camp grounds will provide a return in the investment over many more years to come.  Doing away with the ravers alone will bring in more campers.  And I am sure TRF could gather up volunteers to help work on the campgrounds as well.  Though I no longer work as an electrician, I for one, would volunteer as a TX licensed electrician to help bring power into the campgrounds.

How many shore power hook ups would we be talking about per se? Would they be available to all(tenters) not just RV's and trailers? If there are too few available that would lead to some disgruntled grumbling.

As for getting rid of the Ravers (forgive me) do they stick out in appearance so much that you could weed them out based on appearance alone? I think security and some system proving that not only you've purchased a pass but you've been inside the Gates as well. Would have to be something pretty fool proof.

The way they have it setup at Shiloh Ridge is one power pole every 20 or so yards apart.  4 very large sites share 1 pole.  1 site is large enough for basically 4 to 5 crew cab trucks parked side by side with 3 - 12 man or better sized tents setup in front of them.  This I know because we always filled up our sites.  These sites could be spread though out the camp grounds.

I don't want power poles.  That sort of thing just invites people to plug in all their electronic crap.  Might as well just invite the ravers back in if you want to listen to everyone's amplified music.  And that will also vastly increase the camping fees!  When it gets up to $10-20 per night, per person... we won't be making the trip down.  We camp because it's cheap, it's within walking distance to the gates and most of all because we can spend time with people we care about... and everything else is unimportant to us.  But when it becomes a major expense to just be in the campgrounds, it won't be worth the added expense for us.  We're already driving 1000 miles round trip, so extra money usually isn't in the budget to begin with. 

I agree on all fronts, only we drive about half that distance.
Do we really need more electricity at the campgrounds?

I understand that everyone has their own ideas about camping and whatnot, but as soon as you install electricity like has been proposed, there will be no escape from the flood lights and stereo systems.  At that point, those of us who go camping to escape the electronic hum of our daily lives and enjoy a bit of nature will be out of luck.  You can't block light pollution from a neighboring camp.

Last time we went out, for pirate weekend, I could clearly see the arm of the Milky Way across the sky.  It's enough to bring one to his knees.

EDIT: New Moon for Celtic Xmas!

The no-generator-zone idea has been tossed around by my friends and we really always thought that would be a great way to keep the peace.  RVs seem to do better on the flatter, treeless land between the quickie mart and the drum circle anyway.

There are lots of clans that have one or two RVs, though, and the rest are tents.  Do we really want to tell people they can't camp with their clan because they have an RV? 


Maybe the noise rule could have an upper decibel limit for generators, though, after midnight? 

we should focus on critical issues such as security and safety rather than personal pet peeves, though, lest we get distracted from the core of the discussion. Just sayin' :)

What he said.  ;D

But Breandan, this thread is here for the sole purpose of identifying the problems that people have encountered, and the discussion of possible solutions.  You are a trained security operative, so that is your focus, but there are other issues that merit discussion, as well. 

I don't believe segregation of trailers and tents is the answer.  We have trailers and we use them for camp walls so people don't drive through our camp and run over tents or people.  I would like to be able to camp with our fairemily in our traditional area and not be forced to go out further.

Everyone has their idea of what camping is.  We use our vacation time for camp and faire, so since I don't go to The Caribbean and have room service, I sure as heck am going to have some luxury on my vacation time.  :)

The clear solution is a maximum sound pressure level. It can be measured, and there can be an acceptable SPL established to be in compliance. Noise level is not a pet peeve, it is a matter of comfort, just as much as security and safety. Not feeling secure? Not going to be comfortable...

I do believe generators are somewhat of an issue, not so much because of the generators themselves as much as what they bring with them.  Anyone that was camped down around row 0 this last weekend will know what I am talking about when I say that when I go camping at fair, listening to someone play techno and hiphop music through a PA system complete with soundboard until 1 in the morning is not what I had in mind.  Nor is listening to a wedding party sing Karaoke till 1 AM.  Beyond this sort of what I consider to be obnoxious behavior, the simple fact remains that, while your generator might not sound loud to you in your camper, its much louder coming through my thin tent walls, but that isn't so much a complaint because I feel that a lot of the RV generator users are pretty good about turning them off after they have charged their batteries etc.

I definitely feel that further segregation of the campground might be in order.  They already have the quiet children's camping area, but I don't have kids, nor do I really want to be around them terribly, an I have been known to use expletives at times (sometimes loudly) and I don't want to impose on the family campers just to get away from the techno going on in the main campground.  So a simple, no generators section, or even a no generators running after say 10:30 or  11 PM section, would suite my needs nicely.  I really wish that we could just implement a general "No weed puller-hattery rule" as there are always people who use generators, or even amplified music etc. appropriately and don't bother people and it is too bad that those folks have to suffer the consequences brought on by other people's bad behavior, but sometimes sacrifices must be made to preserve what we love about camping at fair.

Just my two cents.
-Barret

I'm just putting this out there, especially since we went and spent the extra money on a invertor generator just so it was quieter (has even been told it was better white noise then drums as it hazed them out when even the drums were a bit too loud). If 1) we were unable to camp with friends because the weekends we bring the camper we have our generator 2) The camper also serves as small rope light lighting area for our camp the last two years(with the burn ban it been nice), nothing bright but allows us to see what we are doing when cooking or what have you, we also leave them on all night as a source of security. 3) allows cooking in the oven or microwave 4) Warms people when they are so cold they can't stop shriving for hours on end (which came in real handy Halloween weekend let me tell you I was consistently asked or I told people to go sit in the camper until they warm up) 5) or even gives people last minute places to sleep. All of this won't take place just because I want to with my fairemily (which is part of what faire is all about , is it not?) and I now can't bring my camper because what good is spending the close to $200 bucks in JUST gas to tow it down there if I can't use the heater now at all, no extra lighting, no microwave, etc.  Then I will just choose to stop going to faire at TRF (which means because we only maybe day trip Sherwood one weekend, I might only get to see friends for a few hours a day when we go to Scarby). I know a lot of others that feel the same way.

Yeah!  What she said!  

*well said, Riot*

Laird Nasty & I took steps to reduce the sound our life saving power source by half arse enclosing it to least reflect the noise towards the woods.  Before someone even thinks about opening their piehole... we were in tents ourselves and yes, we ran our generator all night, Saturday, AHE.  Last weekend would've been a wonderful weekend to camp but AHE was not.  What was just proposed was censoring the many because of a few.  Uhhhh, the last time i checked, 01:00 isn't all that late when it comes to the campgrounds... if they killed the noise at 1am, think of yourself as lucky.  I've been entertained a lot later than that.  Try diplomacy next time.

I agree with Riot and Fraser.  I've always been of the thought that segregation is not what camp is about.  The campground is massive and there is plenty of room for everyone to find spots that are to his/her personal taste.  Music can be just as loud coming from a car stereo. 

we camped this weekend and I dont recall any generators being overly loud.  Now a few peeps being rowdy at 3 am wasn't all that plesant but hey it is the campgrounds and we know what to expect.  I would really hate to see any sort of changes.  The FD and PD have done a really good job on those times I have camped there. 

I camped at row 0 also and the music and generators weren't loud to me at all. Friday night we were up fairly late and I could hear the music but didn't think it was very loud. Saturday night I went to bed a bit earlier than normal and with all the other noises of the campgrounds the music was no big deal then either.
We plan to be getting ourselves a camper and generator in the next couple of years ourselves mainly for TRF. I will definitely be getting one of the quieter generators but the idea that I can't have one at faire because of the actions of a few is just not right.

*having a camper will also give me more room for rum*

Punishing many for the actions of the few isn't right and I pray isn't the action that is taken.

Super loud generators that plan on being ran all night, should be asked to move at their own discretion to a marked area somewhere within the campgrounds.

People having generators has been the saving grace for more than one person, me included on very cold weekends or a few times when I needed to step away from everything in lue of certain circumstances.

And if it comes down to it, keep an eye on where you are camping. If you get there and see somebody with a big trailer, go ask them, "Hi, do you have a generator? What kind of generator is it? How loud is it? Do you plan on running it all night?"

Depending on the answer you get, then it will determine whether or not this will be the right area for you to set up your tent.


Roman Bacchanal, we had a group set up on Row 0 right behind us that had huge speakers and a screen, and for awhile there, they played super loud music. We politely went and asked them if they could turn it down They were very nice, we were lucky they were reasonable, and everyone went about having a good time. I know not everybody has this luck.

this last weekend was fine the few generators that were running were real quiet and if they were all like that there wouldn't be a problem.  But a few are using 10 and 15 year old generators which have no gotten regular maintance and even inside a pop up which has much heaver construction than most tents they are insanely loud.  or people leave them inside the bed of their trucks which act as sound boxes making a loud generator even louder.  Since I set up early normally around noon can really ask if the person around has a noisy gen they are going run all night.  Mostly what happens is I go on walk about and come back to find some has set up next to me and put their generator right behind me I suppost I could tear everything down and spend a couple three hours moving but that really isn't a very ideal solution.   I've thought of camping in the family section but the walk to fair is insane and I'd miss camping with my friends and being able to go walk about.  I've started thinking of a hard side camper or a small RV not because I want mirowave oven, or a TV or stero system or all the other modern stuff I'm trying to get away from at faire camping but because the noise insolation is so much better.  I understand the complexity of the situation and that there is no ideal solutions that is going to please everyone. and saddy common sense and courtesy seems to be serious lacking in some people. 

Perhaps not a generator ban but how old & loud they are? The point of camping is to remove barriers between people; a house divided against itself cannot stand. I think cops just need to not let ravers in at all, simply deny them access, ban the speakers they bring in... As a lady that is most likely going to be tent camping solo starting at Sherwood it's important to feel secure, safe and comfortable. When that isn''t happening peopel aren't having a good time and thats the point right?

The only way you could know if someone was bringing in those types of speakers and sound system in advance is to do a vehicle search... and that's just not happening.  Not with me, anyway...  It's not even the police who determine who gets in and who doesn't, it's TRF security.  I'm not having them search my vehicle, either.  That would be taking away one of my constitutional rights. and it's JUST NOT HAPPENING...  Besides the indignity of it, can you imagine the expense of having that kind of manpower on hand, to go through EVERY vehicle that comes through those gates, and the time it would take to get everyone through the line???  Sorry... absolutely NOT a practical suggestion!!! 

Maybe some rule on the size of speakers?  Hand held OK or self powered OK but nothing that is larger or powered from a generator.

I'll further explain something I mentioned earlier...

There are instruments...not real expensive...that measure sound pressure level. That means, it measures how loud something is.  The management could set standards as to how loud a generator can be, measured from a specific distance from said unit. If it's out of spec, it must be shut down at a specified time. The same can be done for speakers.

If the specifications are clear, they can be enforced, and can be enforced equitably. Since sound pressure level can be MEASURED, it can be regulated. There does not have to be any search and seizure, which would be the constitutional right of the property owners, if they so specify as a condition of use of their property.  Yes, it would totally suck, but it would be within their rights ( it would also drive away business).

You cannot make the rules arbitrary. One cop might say it's too loud, the next might say it's fine. It has to be measured, if you are going to make such a rule. It's actually a very simple solution.

If there is a ban of speaker, then the unqueenly will be no more as they use speaker for their announcing..  I'm not griping on this one, I'm just trying to show that us we all want certain changes, but certain changes might take away from some of the events we love.

The wise wizard makes good points.

Unqueenly is an event that only lasts an hour or two.  It is not an all night long party that can be heard across the entire camp.  Most stock car stereos can't be heard across the grounds either.

I also don't vote for extra segregation.

Time limits and volume limits should be an acceptable compromise.

I see my views are unpopular here =(.  As for those who recommended I try diplomacy, I did, I asked the group that had the large speakers if they could turn down their music, and the man in charge looked at me, said yes, then sat there doing nothing, the volume didn't seem to change to me at all. As for those wanting generators for heat and light, I fully understand. I lived in a camper for the better part of 3 months and know where you are coming from on that and how much of a life saver it could be.  The generator noise isn't my big complaint, as I said at the beginning of my post, it is more the negative things that generators allow, such as large speaker systems, that I find the most troublesome.

Maybe I should just move to family campgrounds... then again, I wouldn't be camping with my friends at fair who have established camp sites they go to every year.

Yeah I know it is only an hour or two, I was just making a point that is there is an outright ban on them what exactly that would mean. I was just giving a point that not everyone might of thought of :)

Quote from: Barret on November 14, 2011, 07:39:02 PM
I see my views are unpopular here =(.  As for those who recommended I try diplomacy, I did, I asked the group that had the large speakers if they could turn down their music, and the man in charge looked at me, said yes, then sat there doing nothing, the volume didn't seem to change to me at all. As for those wanting generators for heat and light, I fully understand. I lived in a camper for the better part of 3 months and know where you are coming from on that and how much of a life saver it could be.  The generator noise isn't my big complaint, as I said at the beginning of my post, it is more the negative things that generators allow, such as large speaker systems, that I find the most troublesome.

Maybe I should just move to family campgrounds... then again, I wouldn't be camping with my friends at fair who have established camp sites they go to every year.

Barret please do not think I was trying to disregard your opinions. I was merely giving my opinions in the matter and trying to bring up points on the other side of the fence that people might not of thought of. Most of my post wasn't directed directly at anyone in particular mostly that the mentions of people that have posted that campers, need to be move, generators need to be moved, speakers need to go away, which has made it seem like people who have campers and/or generators of the evil variety and need to be dealt with by being put in their own spots where they are away from everyone else.

I see where your coming from Riot.  I think there have been lots of good possibilities suggested and I think your right that forcing campers into a particular area probably isn't a good solution.  I guess I was trying to advocate for providing an area for people who choose to be away from campers to go to. Basically instead of forcing the separation, you just provide an option for those who want it.  Similar to what has happened with the family campground, but I wasn't very clear.

-Barret

Terre and TRF management know our concerns and seem to be addressing the matter.  The "raves" are shutting down a lot earlier than before.  If i came off as a bit abbrasive... Sorry, it's the way i am.  Kinda like John Wayne toilet paper... rough, tough and don't take s**t off of anyone.  ;)

Quote from: Laird Fraser of Lovatt on November 15, 2011, 06:27:48 AM
...Kinda like John Wayne toilet paper... rough, tough and don't take s**t off of anyone.  ;)

That's kinda useless TP isn't it (o:

More like wiping with 80 grit sandpaper....  ;)

Quote from: KiltedPrivateer on November 15, 2011, 09:14:48 AM

Quote from: Laird Fraser of Lovatt on November 15, 2011, 06:27:48 AM
...Kinda like John Wayne toilet paper... rough, tough and don't take s**t off of anyone.  ;)

That's kinda useless TP isn't it (o:

^^^ I got that, KP...  ROFL 

I think I'll bring my own Charmin in that case :)

So did anyone see this article in The Houston Chronicle?


Here is an excerpt:

Albert said the fairgrounds are plenty big to accommodate the masses pouring inside the "royal gates." Because of the large number of campers this year - about 5,000 -organizers are planning to add more land, power and water to the already 120-acre campground.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Renaissance-Festival-drawing-record-crowds-2279644.php

So should we run friendly wagers on where the water and electricity will be? :) It will give us something to talk about until next cannon lol.  ;D

I'm actually not very excited about having power and water.  I wonder how much they are going to hike up the camping fee?  I'm not sure we will be able to afford to camp with an increase in price. 

I have heard that they closed the kings orchard to expand the campgrounds.

Same here eldatari. I know a lot of people want this but I say be careful what you wish for cause you may get more than you bargained for. I think this is going to be ultimately A VERY BAD THING.

I hope they keep the current grounds the way they are and use the new section for the water, electricity, and such.  That way if you want the extras you can go over there and pay for them, but those of us who don't, won't have to foot the bill for it.

Ok...so from the rumor mill this is what I heard. The the campgrounds out to row 20 will be gone.  Camping will start at row 20 and expand in to the old orchard from there.  The newest part of the campgrounds from row 0 to row -5 will be partisipants camping.

Remember this is just rumor so I don't know if it's true.  I will say that I like my litte spot at -5 and I hope to make that the same spot we go to every year.  I really hope they don't push camping out that far or if they do they provide shuttles to the front gate as I know that I wouldn't be able to walk that at the end of the day.

Are we sure the camping fee would go up?  The fee did already go up just to discourage a certain type of group.  Were those funds spent to emprove the grounds or increase security in anyway?

Hmm may be time to invest in my horse and carriage enterprise *Ponders*

Quote from: KiltedPrivateer on December 07, 2011, 05:46:12 PM
Hmm may be time to invest in my horse and carriage enterprise *Ponders*

Soooo how do I get on the waiting list? :)

Quote from: Taylor Blu on December 07, 2011, 12:29:09 PM
Are we sure the camping fee would go up?  The fee did already go up just to discourage a certain type of group.  Were those funds spent to emprove the grounds or increase security in anyway?

I think it was more for an increase in security and to cover clean up cost.  I would bet anything that the camp fee will go up if they have to run water lines and electricity out there.  There I no way George is going to make improvements for free.

Quote from: eldatari on December 07, 2011, 07:45:31 PM

Quote from: Taylor Blu on December 07, 2011, 12:29:09 PM
Are we sure the camping fee would go up?  The fee did already go up just to discourage a certain type of group.  Were those funds spent to emprove the grounds or increase security in anyway?

I think it was more for an increase in security and to cover clean up cost.  I would bet anything that the camp fee will go up if they have to run water lines and electricity out there.  There I no way George is going to make improvements for free.

Unlike other faires in the area...

Damn, was that out loud (o:

Keep in mind that it is a business, not a charity.  Just sayin'.

Power to certain sections of the campgrounds would do away with the loud generators.  And would also bring in new folks that do not normally camp.  Though I do not see them bringing in power to the entire campground.

Quote from: Glaodian on December 08, 2011, 05:35:52 PM
Power to certain sections of the campgrounds would do away with the loud generators.  And would also bring in new folks that do not normally camp.  Though I do not see them bringing in power to the entire campground.

May not nring power to the entire campground but it will bring a price increase to all campers.. just saying.

It's possible the price could go up.  But, I would rather pay to camp instead of the alternative that could happen with drinking at faire.  Not to sound preachy or anything but that is one of the reasons we camp; so we can relax and not worry about how much we've had to drink because we will have to drive home in a few hours.

Quote from: Valeria Skyye aka AngieP on December 08, 2011, 07:58:29 PMMay not bring power to the entire campground but it will bring a price increase to all campers.. just saying.

Maybe, maybe not. Something my late Pappy used to say, "Don't squeal `til you get stuck," meaning don't assume anything. But another saying was, "You gotta pay to play."

I'm seeing that some people are wanting the improvements, some aren't, some are willing to pay more, some aren't. I wonder if it's simply a case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't."

It may be that the only logical thing to do is to have two camping facilities, with two prices, and keep them physically separated.

The price could go up.  But then again, it may not.  Since they would be able to charge more for the full service sites (i.e., power and water hook-ups), they would more then be able to pay for the upgrades.  I still do not understand why some think that because they may add a few sites with power and water, why they assume that everyone will have to pay more.  Like any business, they should not expect to pay for the upgrades in one season.  Usually, 2 to 5 seasons should be expected to pay for this from a business stand point.

Quote from: Bonny Pearl on December 08, 2011, 08:18:52 PM
It's possible the price could go up.  But, I would rather pay to camp instead of the alternative that could happen with drinking at faire.  Not to sound preachy or anything but that is one of the reasons we camp; so we can relax and not worry about how much we've had to drink because we will have to drive home in a few hours.

I can't believe alcohol has touched your lips, Bonny!  ;)

You're right, though. I don't camp simply because I like the comfort of a nice bed. If I had a rig like yours, Bonny, I might reconsider... I realize that we all come from widely varying incomes, and I truly don't mean any offense to anyone, but if a difference of a few dollars is a hardship, should you even be going to faire? For many years, we didn't, because there was no way we could afford it. Am I missing something here?  Faires are businesses; they aren't a "right," they are entertainment.

Quote from: Merlin the Elder on December 08, 2011, 08:46:59 PM

Quote from: Bonny Pearl on December 08, 2011, 08:18:52 PM
It's possible the price could go up.  But, I would rather pay to camp instead of the alternative that could happen with drinking at faire.  Not to sound preachy or anything but that is one of the reasons we camp; so we can relax and not worry about how much we've had to drink because we will have to drive home in a few hours.

I can't believe alcohol has touched your lips, Bonny!  ;)

You're right, though. I don't camp simply because I like the comfort of a nice bed. If I had a rig like yours, Bonny, I might reconsider... I realize that we all come from widely varying incomes, and I truly don't mean any offense to anyone, but if a difference of a few dollars is a hardship, should you even be going to faire? For many years, we didn't, because there was no way we could afford it. Am I missing something here?  Faires are businesses; they aren't a "right," they are entertainment.

My fear is that it will be more than just a few dollars increase and that George will want to see a return on his investment immediately rather than over several years.  Faire is usually a bit of a stretch for us to make but it is the one thing that I do for myself every year and come hell or high water I will continue to go.  However if camping becomes too expensive, I live within an hour of TRF and I can go home to sleep in my own bed.  So yes I should be going to faire  but camping doesn't have to happen(though I would be sad not to be able to).

You know even if camping fees doubled it would still be cheaper than one night in a lousy motel so I think you give George credit because he is the one taking all the risk. Oh and no I do not know George and have never met him so this is just my personal observation.

Quote from: Glaodian on December 08, 2011, 08:31:00 PM
 I still do not understand why some think that because they may add a few sites with power and water, why they assume that everyone will have to pay more.

Past experience with Mr. Coulam in many peoples' cases. I have seen him suddenly jack gate fees up through the roof without any associated improvements done to the faire before, and those were some of the worst years we ever had out there. George has a bad tendency to want the quick payoff these days (used to not be that way, but things change as you grow older I guess), so he has made some very unwise short-term-thinking business decisions over the past decade. This is what has a lot of people concerned.

That being said, this may well be more under Terre's control than George's. If that is the case, then I am optimistic. I watched Terre with a cautious-but-openminded eye this year to see what rumours came true and what turned out to be BS, how he would handle certain situations, and what changes would be made at faire. I have to say, I have been pleasantly surprised, and I think he did an excellent job with the limited resources he has been handed. So, until we find out for sure that it will be George pulling the strings, I say wait and hold judgement.

I agree that we should wait and see.  As for fees being jacked thru the roof, I have been going to faire since the early to mid 90's and I have not noticed this.  Or at least nothing that did not follow the economy.  It is fair to assume that fees should go up as the cost of everything else does.  Fuel costs influence all aspects of life.   ;D

Quote from: Merlin the Elder on December 08, 2011, 08:46:59 PM

Quote from: Bonny Pearl on December 08, 2011, 08:18:52 PM
It's possible the price could go up.  But, I would rather pay to camp instead of the alternative that could happen with drinking at faire.  Not to sound preachy or anything but that is one of the reasons we camp; so we can relax and not worry about how much we've had to drink because we will have to drive home in a few hours.

I can't believe alcohol has touched your lips, Bonny!  ;)

You're right, though. I don't camp simply because I like the comfort of a nice bed. If I had a rig like yours, Bonny, I might reconsider... I realize that we all come from widely varying incomes, and I truly don't mean any offense to anyone, but if a difference of a few dollars is a hardship, should you even be going to faire? For many years, we didn't, because there was no way we could afford it. Am I missing something here?  Faires are businesses; they aren't a "right," they are entertainment.

Yes a few more dollars is a concern! and yes I should still go to faire! My family saves all year for faire. Its is our vacation. My kids do not go without anything they need just to go to faire and all my bills gets paid. I WORK hard and SAVE hard to go to faire.The more I have to pay to camp the less I have to spend inside the gates. I like to make every dollar count.

For now I will just wait and see what happens next season. I am hoping for the best but I am a realist and I plan for the worst. Here is hoping they find a way to make it work without increases cost too much.

Simple solution for powered camping spots and not having everyone else cover the cost:

Make the electrical outlets with locked covers. If you want power, you would "rent" the key, for say $30. When you leave, you turn in the key and get $10 back. If a key doesn't get turned in, management just changes that padlock.

See? simple solution.

Quote from: mpullen on December 09, 2011, 07:51:00 AM
Simple solution for powered camping spots and not having everyone else cover the cost:

Make the electrical outlets with locked covers. If you want power, you would "rent" the key, for say $30. When you leave, you turn in the key and get $10 back. If a key doesn't get turned in, management just changes that padlock.

See? simple solution.

sounds good to me!

LOL Merlin!  Shh, don't tell anyone about that. ;)

I understand the cost at camp reduces the amount that is spent inside faire for a lot of people.  It makes a difference for us as well.  It could change how often people can make it out to faire.  However, this is all speculation.  Who knows what TRF will do.  They could do as Mike P mentioned and rent out power and/or they could segregate trailers from tents (which would be a bummer) or have set prices depending on what you are camping in, trailer or tent.

What Mike stated makes the most sense.  It will be interesting to see what TRF does.

After seeing what he accomplished this year, I have faith that Terre will find a solution that appeases all of us.

I just recently met a lovely lady who said she and her husband always camp at TRF and she had nothing but good things to say about this year. She said the camps were cleaner than ever before and security seemed more present. The picture she painted about this season camping was a very pleasant and attractive one.
Made me want to go camp there!

there were some problems the first two weekends, they were brought to Terre's attention, and from the third weekend on the measures he put into place went a long way to seriously improving the camping experience. I was impressed, to say the least.

Quote from: mpullen on December 09, 2011, 07:51:00 AM
Simple solution for powered camping spots and not having everyone else cover the cost:

Make the electrical outlets with locked covers. If you want power, you would "rent" the key, for say $30. When you leave, you turn in the key and get $10 back. If a key doesn't get turned in, management just changes that padlock.

See? simple solution.

This is one of those times that a LIKE button would be useful!

Okay, looks like Terre has taken to heart many of your suggestions.

Some, especially the per person charge with wristband, were apparently rejected. Oh well, at least some things will improve.

This message thread will self-destruct in a couple of weeks as it has served it's purpose.

Quote from: mpullen on December 12, 2011, 05:52:02 PM
Okay, looks like Terre has taken to heart many of your suggestions.

Some, especially the per person charge with wristband, were apparently rejected. Oh well, at least some things will improve.

This message thread will self-destruct in a couple of weeks as it has served it's purpose.

Can you supply the Mission Impossible theme music at the time of self-destruction?   ;)   ;D

Quote from: mpullen on December 12, 2011, 05:52:02 PM
Okay, looks like Terre has taken to heart many of your suggestions.

Some, especially the per person charge with wristband, were apparently rejected. Oh well, at least some things will improve.

This message thread will self-destruct in a couple of weeks as it has served it's purpose.

Hmmm... well, so far it looks like the only change is going to be a rate hike.  The roads seem fine to me, but we're going to be required to pay $5 more per car per weekend just for water? That works out great for those who bring the portable camp showers with the large holding tanks, but it seems as though we're all going to be paying for their showers, even if we don't have one of our own.  And how much is camping going to go up the next year?  And the next?!?!?!?  Looks like we might be staying at the place down the road, at some point... or just sleeping in the van somewhere on the side of the road.  I can tell how many times we'll be tempted to make THAT trip...


Sherwood is starting to gain greatly in appeal. 

How To Make Money-

1) Buy land on 1774
2) clear underbrush for camping
3) charge reasonable fee
4) make money

Quote from: Rani Zemirah on December 13, 2011, 01:32:49 AM

Quote from: mpullen on December 12, 2011, 05:52:02 PM
Okay, looks like Terre has taken to heart many of your suggestions.

Some, especially the per person charge with wristband, were apparently rejected. Oh well, at least some things will improve.

This message thread will self-destruct in a couple of weeks as it has served it's purpose.

Hmmm... well, so far it looks like the only change is going to be a rate hike.  The roads seem fine to me, but we're going to be required to pay $5 more per car per weekend just for water? That works out great for those who bring the portable camp showers with the large holding tanks, but it seems as though we're all going to be paying for their showers, even if we don't have one of our own.  And how much is camping going to go up the next year?  And the next?!?!?!?  Looks like we might be staying at the place down the road, at some point... or just sleeping in the van somewhere on the side of the road.  I can tell how many times we'll be tempted to make THAT trip...


Sherwood is starting to gain greatly in appeal.  

The added security after the second weekend was an added cost that was unexpected.  I am sure the extra $5 is to cover that.  I do not mind paying the extra $5 for the added security.  It sure beats having all of the ravers and dope heads running around.

I am not a camper....for many varied reasons...I used to camp years ago...but not now... I see and hear all the complaints and suggestions.

1) flushies and showers cost money and time to maintain...so you guys will have to fork over the dough to have those wonderful things offered. Price other campgrounds that offer these and see what they charge then add the not having to drive to your camp ground from faire value!

2)Ravers and nutcases   all places have them and wrist bands and such are a way to control some of the the riffraff...as are fencing the camp ground so you have no access anyway but the gates.  YUP again cost money to build,maintain and man but would stop much of the the theft that goes on....they would have to get past security with your signs and such!

3) Music...there is a sticky wicket but if you make it so nothing can be played loud after 9pm and then quiet time starts at 11 many ravers and such will move on...they do not like to be quiet! Also limit the music to Ren type so as to stop the boomboom bs....

4) Reserve the rights(signs and sign in book) to banish a pest...permanently if needed....require an ID and have wristbands in several colours...say red for permanent camp adults,green for perm kids,purple for perm under 21 then yellow adult and blue under 21 and orange kids..... this would make it easy to see if there is underage drinking and such.

JMO hope some of my insights help...I LOVE TRF it has been my home faire since the 2nd year and I have seen it grow and change. I want to see it continue to be the best faire there is!!!!  Now I also have Sherwood on that list.

mpullen, please don't kill the thread as it provides us an outlet to talk and to continue to give constructive input about the camping at TRF.

Quote from: LadyJessica on December 13, 2011, 01:45:16 PM
mpullen, please don't kill the thread as it provides us an outlet to talk and to continue to give constructive input about the camping at TRF.

Okley-dokely, just keep the discussions on topic.

My theory is that expanding the campgrounds means more vehicles, and more vehicles means more camping revenue that hopefully will be used to off-set some of the expenses of campround improvements.  :)

I am happy with all of the proposed changes. Water will be nice. Showers and flushies would be great if they are maintained anything like the ones inside (always clean). I'm not sure about the electric hook up though. Would that not require something like "numbered and assigned" camp spaces like regular campgrounds? 

Quote from: crashbot on January 05, 2012, 08:45:07 AM
I am happy with all of the proposed changes. Water will be nice. Showers and flushies would be great if they are maintained anything like the ones inside (always clean). I'm not sure about the electric hook up though. Would that not require something like "numbered and assigned" camp spaces like regular campgrounds?  

Clean flushies inside? check. Clean participant shower houses? er, not so much...

Sorry, I've been out of pocket for some time.

I like to read this forum, the opinions and concerns.  I'll try and answer everything I've read over the last months.
 
The improvements are not to cover any cost from this past year, we had a wonderful year with record attendance, so thanks to everyone who came out, even though we didn't have fires or the bonfire.  We did add some security and tried to address problems when they were brought to our attention, (Loud Music, Theft, others) but the cost of those things is just the cost of business.

The campground expansion is ultimately a traffic problem solution.  In our opinion more people camping means less people on the roads, keeping traffic and accidents down.  We think we have a good thing going with great after hour's parties that many campgrounds don't or can't offer.

The improvement will come in stages and hopefully with growth we won't have to change the price to pay for them.  If we add electricity then the people who want that can pay extra and everyone else will pay less.

I believe we have a good reputation of keeping privies clean and showers clean so if we add those next year or in 2014 than we will maintain them just like the festival.

The price for next year is still $20 the same as this past year and the year before.  If you saw a $25 price it was a mistake and it was changed back on the website.

The new roads and improvements are coming along fine.  We wanted to add things to make our patrons/campers safe and make the grounds more comfortable, like running water and a better store to buy things you might need.  We are adding 100 acres but don't know if they will be used right away.

George has always been a visionary and his ability to see the future and what we will need five year down the road is what has made this place the success that it is.  Thanks for caring enough to offer your opinion and I hope someone always listens to them even if they don't agree.

Terre 

Terre, you have a great way of calming fears.  I'm looking forward to the future enhancements and have to agree that camping closing weekend was a delight.  You have done a great job.  Thank you.

While I still hold that George has hampered the creative growth of the faire in lieu of profits, that's my opinion from personal experience over the past 20 years. So, while I appreciate the praise you have for George, make no mistake that most of us see you as the true visionary behind all of this. I understand you may disagree, but that is how many of us on the outside see it.

That being said, there are concerns about the growth of faire that are valid, some that are invalid, and some- such as the people complaining about where the new roads will exit- are just petty gripes. You've addressed all of them well, which leads me to be hopeful that some of the magic will come back to the festival. So, here's where I have to ask the big 800lb guerrilla question- would you be willing to have a constructive Q&A discussion on other aspects of faire, such as jury selection (i.e., reversing the medieval flea market feel and making TRF more of an artisan's faire like Sherwood), site improvements (what to add, what to change, new booths, etc.), grounds expansion (if possible, getting kinda crowded), etc.?

I'm always willing to disucss the festival one-on-one or with a committee.  As long as the goal is to improve the festival then my door is always open. 

 :o

Wow... not many would offer that up, Terre, but it's a good idea.  Your friendly neighborhood playtrons have visited many other Faires and some of the people on this board may have some useful insights. 

*Management that is open to new ideas... THAT is kinda scary!*  :D

you, sir, have earned my respect, which I generally give out grudgingly, by being willing to discuss these matters when others in the past simply blew us off and demanded our money. That being said, I echo Fraser- be careful what you wish for :D

Here's a few starting ideas:

1) Vendors and jury selection- Over the past several years there has been an increased predilection to allow pretty much anything into faire that is even remotely quasi-medieval, most of it cheap mail-order junk one can find in any mall, flea market, swap meet or on ten frillion online ebay sites. This has, in turn, led to an assumption- right or wrong, and I've seen and heard evidence both ways- that it is allowed because it A) sells quickly and moves fast, and B) faire gets a cut of the profit from these vendors due to it not being of their manufacture, therefore the more they sell, the more money TRF makes. This is a VERY sore point for many artisans, who break the bank with booth fees, overhead expenses including lodging, payroll for employees, equipment, materials, etc., and all of the other costs associated with a two month run at faire- on top of the already hefty costs of building a booth out there (get to that in a moment), only to watch their sales go in the tank because the shop across from them is selling mass-produced crap in the same general genre as their products. They, as artisans, can only set the price so low before there's no point in even doing the trade, whereas the companies selling the mass-produced junk can do so far cheaper because their product is made for pennies by virtual sweatshop labour in China, Indonesia, and so on. I would like to see this addressed, and have some solutions-

* Tighten up the standards for vendors, such that there can only be a tiny handful of resale shops of mass-produced items in the same category, and give greater preference to those who provide something to the ambiance of faire such as the Pirate's Cove booths. I may dislike a lot of what they sell as cheap junk (they DO carry a small selection of decent blades), but they're honest about it, and the auction and their character interaction more than makes up for it, adding to the faire experience. They are about the ONLY shop selling mass-produced stuff that does this, however.

* Increase the chunk taken from the mass-produced resellers, and give incentives for tradesmen and artisans, ESPECIALLY if they demo their craft. The increase in the cut from MP resellers will eventually drive most of them out, and the incentives will increase the number of unique artisans and craftsmen brought into TRF. Anyone can buy a cheap wallhanger sword, mass-produced resin skull, or costumes made in China and India online or through catalogs, but how many people would prefer to buy a Tinker Pearce custom blade, pottery or ceramics crafted and baked right before their eyes, or clothing made by Dra or Doug that is sold in the shop by the very creators of the items? I sure as hell would rather pay for a unique piece from an artisan than a clone copy MP item. Allowances should be made for apprentices and official representatives- NOT 'licensed retailers', but people actually chosen by the artisan or craftsman to sell and demo their work- to run the booths as many of these artisans work multiple shows or have other constraints that would prevent them from working each faire weekend.

* For craftsmen and artisans who use traditional methods and are willing to demo them, give them even further incentives such as reduced booth fees, additional passes for apprentices, priority camping spots near their shop, etc. This will increase the number of artisans willing to showcase their crafts, which will draw in bigger crowds. After all, its not every day you can walk by and see a cobbler at work making shoes, or a bladesmith grinding and polishing a sword blade.

* Ditch the grandfather rule, go back and audit  E V E R Y O N E !  There are a LOT of shops that skate by because they've been there forever, some of them have been reported numerous times for a variety of issues (two particular weapons shops come to mind as the owner of one has a long and storied history of playing fast-and-loose with items he sells, both at faire and at gun shows, and the other has been busted for fraud, selling swords with Windlass Steelcrafts blades and claiming them to be their own manufacture while charging exorbitant prices, even for the custom blade market). The public perception- and I say this with strong authority because I hear it almost nonstop when this issue is brought up by rennies and patrons alike- is that these shops are, again, allowed to remain there as George can pocket more money off of them and overrides the jury, or tells them to turn a blind eye. Again, I cannot speak to the truth of this accusation, however I CAN say it is out there, and is being voiced a LOT.

Doing these things will go a long way to shifting the vendor pool from flea market mass-produced reseller to artisans and craftsmen selling unique- and often far superior- wares. This draws in more people, as TRF has- for the shoppers- always been THE place to go for unique gifts (I speak from experience here as we would get a dozen people a day drop by the blacksmith shop to get customized items that were made nowhere else, and willing to pay a metric butt-tonne more for them than a mass-produced version of it they could get at Bed, Bath and Beyond or the like). It brings back the magic, keeps these trades alive, and- dare I say it- brings in a better class of both rennie and patron.

----------

2) Booths and Booth Construction- One of the biggest complaints over the years has been the requirement that vendors building booths at TRF use TRF-approved contractors. Unless this has changed, this meant one of two or three people, all of whom overcharged for their work, often slacked off and fell way behind schedule (I've seen this personally in at least one case), and generally did sub-standard work that had to be corrected at booth-owner expense later on. While I understand the need to keep booth designs and appearances in line with the feel of the renaissance festival architecture, would it not make more sense to allow booth owners- who are, in point of fact, footing a metric butt-tonne of money for a shop on land they don't own, that can be taken from them at the drop of the hat without ANY remuneration or compensation, and therefore taking one HELL of a financial risk to begin with- to use any licensed contractor, provided that their plans meet with TRF approval?

Again, I am a couple of years behind on this issue, so I am unsure if this matter has been addressed at all yet or not.

----------

3) Entertainment, Cast Augmentations through Volunteers- I understand the cast was cut due to cost, and this was most certainly noticed by the patrons (google around using some basic keywords and you'll find patron blogs and journal entries out the wazoo, and it was mentioned more than a few times when I dug around). A way to offset that would be to augment the core (i.e., paid) cast with an increased number of volunteer cast members. These volunteers would not be paid, but would receive a pass for a predetermined amount of work (say, 5-6 hours a day at specific locations and events, and then the rest of the day is theirs to wander around, provided they stay in-character while in the outfits). This would expand the number of characters in the streets and at events, all with minimal impact to the bottom-line. I actually started out at TRF that way over 20 years ago, volunteering with the Barbarians in exchange for a pass. I loved it, and it was a great deal of fun. These volunteers should be vetted, of course, and have at least some basic audition to ensure that they can maintain a decent character presence, but overall the process should be fairly smooth to get them in (and to get them out if they fail to live up to their end of the bargain as well).

These are just a couple of the ideas off the top of my head for consideration, at any rate :)

 Most of these items are being addressed or have been addressed over the last few years.  We are slowly removing merchants and replacing them with artists.  We offer a financial incentive to artists and try to make it easier for them to participate.  

We have a master plan to increase Artist by 3% each year through 2017.  By then if our goal is reached we should have change the landscape of the vendors at the festival and removed any unwanted.

Our new vendor coordinator is going to as many fairs, art shows and festivals to recruit first time vendors who hopefully will convert to shoppe owners.  

We do require the booth owners to use approved builders, but over the last few years we have added some new companies and some independents.  Each person or group must have liability insurance which has remove many, leaving the best.  We will allow anyone who brings three references and has insurance to be approved to build at TRF.

Hope this answers your questions.  Feel free to ask more.  

Terre

and the cast volunteers idea? I know that may be the ED's department more than yours, I'm just curious if it is something that would be potentially on the table.

I'm glad that you are phasing out the mass sellers in favour of the artists, and I understand why it's hard to see the transition since you are doing it slowly instead of all in one fell swoop (something to be said for that, by the way, didn't think of that).

Hi Terre,

I saw the pics on FB that show the new store, facilities that have been built and the road.  Would you give us a bit more information about where these are located in relation to the camping rows?  Trying to get a visual on where these things are and google hasn't updated the satellite image of the area yet.  Also, is the camping entrance being relocated from Deerwood?  If so where will be enter for camp?

The buildings look great and I know a lot of people will be very happy about having these things available.

Thanks

B~

Because this is an expensive expansion most of what you see is the remodeling of the Orchard Buildings (Office/Store, Bathrooms).  The new entrance will come off of CR 302 which will be repaved and improved to handle Parking and Camping traffic.  While you can camp in the new areas and be close to these buildings most people will stay in the regular campgrounds, which for 2012 will remain the same.  I could be wrong and people may want privacy and the new areas could explode. We have a large parking area at the store so you can drive and shop/use bathrooms and we will keep these facilities very clean.  After the roads are completed and the trees growing we will look to build more of these facilities inside the regualr campgrounds closer to the campers.   

Breanden,

Define for us your version of "mass sellers". Not all of the vendors selling other people's stuff indulge in the low quality end. Some of the through-sellers have been there since George opened the gates and they have passed every jury for 38 years. I agree that we need to get rid of the county fair crap but I wouldn't lump all of the non-artisan vendors into the same group.

Thanks

There is a new map for the campgrounds posted on FB.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/texrenfest

It looks like there is clan camping but I am trying to find more detail.  Terre, would you please let us know what the plan is for this?  Are we to reserve areas or will it still be first come, first serve?

Thanks

Terre, is there anyway that Clans and people that camp there on a regular basis can come out and preview the campgrounds maybe the week or two before the faire opens so we can see the new layout and get a feel for it?  The RV pods are running right through where my groups been camping the last few years so I'm fairly sure that we'll have top find a new spot.

(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150575209086188&set=pu.101570651187&type=1&theater)

What effort will be made to contact the "clans" that do not post here or any other common board?

Ravic, I know they also posted this on their facebook page the other day.. just an fyi..

The best think for now is to not get excited about change.  While we have roads, pods and clan circles in this drawing they are really just gravel roads.  Roads to be used for RV, Tent and Campers.  Your group can go take over a pod, or a clan circle or stay in the same area you were in.  My orginal idea was to have these areas to make the gathering places more accessable for the clans.  Maybe installing a 30' flag pole to fly colors and really help you guys dress up the areas, make it more exciting, colorful.  I don't have a problem showing you the area before we open and you know I will keep posting pictures as we build these areas.   

I would love to come up to see the improvements as well, and to thank you in person for all that you are doing.  Please post here when you decide on a date.

Quote from: Terre Albert on February 22, 2012, 10:23:16 AM
The best think for now is to not get excited about change.  While we have roads, pods and clan circles in this drawing they are really just gravel roads.  Roads to be used for RV, Tent and Campers.  Your group can go take over a pod, or a clan circle or stay in the same area you were in.  My orginal idea was to have these areas to make the gathering places more accessable for the clans.  Maybe installing a 30' flag pole to fly colors and really help you guys dress up the areas, make it more exciting, colorful.  I don't have a problem showing you the area before we open and you know I will keep posting pictures as we build these areas.   

Excellent!  Thank you Terre, for all you do and for being so upfront with us.  I would greatly appreicate the pictures and a chance to see it for myself.

Quote from: LadyJessica on February 22, 2012, 01:10:32 PM

Quote from: Terre Albert on February 22, 2012, 10:23:16 AM
The best think for now is to not get excited about change.  While we have roads, pods and clan circles in this drawing they are really just gravel roads.  Roads to be used for RV, Tent and Campers.  Your group can go take over a pod, or a clan circle or stay in the same area you were in.  My orginal idea was to have these areas to make the gathering places more accessable for the clans.  Maybe installing a 30' flag pole to fly colors and really help you guys dress up the areas, make it more exciting, colorful.  I don't have a problem showing you the area before we open and you know I will keep posting pictures as we build these areas.   

Excellent!  Thank you Terre, for all you do and for being so upfront with us.  I would greatly appreicate the pictures and a chance to see it for myself.

I second that... ;D

Sounds good.  I can't wait to see the progress and come out to see the campgrounds!

Terre, have you started working on the campgrounds?  I've seen all the wonderful pics that you've posted on the TRF FB page of the improvements in the grounds itself but nothing of the campgrounds.

I'll take some tomorrow, It's really complete with a few little things left. 

Awesome!  I can't wait to see them!  :o

Quote from: Terre Albert on May 22, 2012, 04:37:40 PM
I'll take some tomorrow, It's really complete with a few little things left.  

Looking forward to the photos.  Thanks, Terre.

I wonder, if we all write into Google could we get them to take a picture of the faire grounds on the Halloween weekend?

Quote from: LadyJessica on May 31, 2012, 01:45:23 PM
I wonder, if we all write into Google could we get them to take a picture of the faire grounds on the Halloween weekend?

Get all of us R/F'ers to spell out R/F when they do :)

Quote from: Riot on May 31, 2012, 02:38:11 PM

Quote from: LadyJessica on May 31, 2012, 01:45:23 PM
I wonder, if we all write into Google could we get them to take a picture of the faire grounds on the Halloween weekend?

Get all of us R/F'ers to spell out R/F when they do :)

^^Like!^^

Quote from: LadyJessica on February 21, 2012, 08:39:49 PM
Terre, is there anyway that Clans and people that camp there on a regular basis can come out and preview the campgrounds maybe the week or two before the faire opens so we can see the new layout and get a feel for it?  The RV pods are running right through where my groups been camping the last few years so I'm fairly sure that we'll have top find a new spot.

(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150575209086188&set=pu.101570651187&type=1&theater)

Jessica, see my new topic. Yes, we plan on a walk-thru/introduction the Sunday before opening weekend, sometime around noon.

Quote from: ravic on February 21, 2012, 10:43:38 PM
What effort will be made to contact the "clans" that do not post here or any other common board?

I need folks who post here frequently to pass the word to others. I have my contact list for Sherwood Forest that I have sent initial information, but that's about it.

I'll post an update to the Facebook page shortly, but other than that, I don't have contact info.

If folks would like to be added to a contact list, email me at Darach.Dhoire@yahoo.com

Pullen...once again please don't delete the thread...just lock it if need be...

Deleting threads that were used for discussion is anti-productive.  It kills the ability to search for information that was discussed in the future.  This topic will come up again, and if this thread is deleted, then the entire discussion will be doomed to be repeated.

OR, you could just abandon it and let others continue on with it.  Just because you make be done with it, does not mean others are.

I know this thread is about a year outdated, and several of these points have been addressed. There are no perfect solutions, but here's my two cents for others to poke holes in. :)

A1: I agree with charging per individual rather than per car. I also agree with the idea of leaving one's ID behind if one wishes to "visit." Assuming TRF is going to hire the people necessary to check access to campgrounds, wristbands seem sensible. My only issue with this has to do with the discomfort of wearing a wristband and the effect it has on a person's costume. I don't think people are going to like this; I personally lock my tents with luggage locks (through the zippers) and lock anything of great worth in my vehicle. Regardless, my only solution here is to not actually require people to wear wristbands; I doubt anyone's going to give theirs away to anybody else. I would personally use the wristband's adhesive to stick it to my ID.

A2: Assuming A1 is going to happen and there are going to be TRF employees checking points of access to the campgrounds anyway, have those people check vehicles attempting to pass from the TRF parking lot to the patrons' campgrounds. I say this because I like to camp in the far corner of the campground - which is much "farther" this year than last - and have grown accustomed to packing my camp group into the truck and taking them to a parking spot in front of the gates in the morning. This saves us all a quarter-mile (!) walk. Yes, I anticipate the "if you're not ready to walk ten miles a day, what are you doing at TRF" argument, but my group is quite diverse, often including people older than the original poster. Much of TRF is shaded. Very little of the path from the campground to TRF is.

B: I'm not worried about this; I bring my own shower. It's not expensive and doesn't take up much room when packed. Your solution seems fine, but I'm not willing to pay for it.

C: N/A as of 2012

D: N/A as of 2012 - I think - but the mechanics elude me.

I've been following the evolution of the campgrounds on FB for a while and could swear I heard that there would be some noise segregation. I'd love "The Ravers" [dun-dun-dunnn] to be handled in some fashion but I'm not sure that will happen. TRF's page on camping is scant on details and looks much the same - except for the "flushies," spigots, and new fire rules - as it did in 2010.