What do you think?
Should faires be fantasy, historically accurate or a mix?
Should there be fantastical creatures such as elves, fairies, nymphs, dwarves, vampires, hobbits, santa claus, stormtroopers and etc allowed (on staff or by playtrons)?
My personal opinion is it should be as historically accurate as possible and fantastical creatures should not be allowed either on staff or by playtrons. I wouldn't go to a fantasy faire or one with any fantastical creatures on staff...and wouldn't go to any faire where a lot of playtrons were dressing as fantastical creatures.
Regards,
CB
I can see this becoming a heated topic!
To Fantasy or Reality? Hmmm... I'll choose.... BOTH!!!
Since we obviously can't be completely accurate (we have clean water, sanitary cooking conditions, freedom of disease, etc), why not allow people to enjoy a tiny taste of history in whatever way makes them happy? My children wouldn't stand still in HA clothing but are thrilled with the Elven Ranger and Jester garb they designed and I sewed.
A close replica of HA is an SCA event. They work hard at recreating history as much as realistically possible. A perfect place for your HA fix and guaranteed Storm Trooper free!
Funny, this same thread is taking place in the CoRF forum right now.
IMHO, I believe the fantasy elements add *so much* fun to the whole thing!
Besides, as a playtron, I don't think I'd appreciate being told how to dress.
If H/A is what you're looking for, that's more the re-enactors, or SCA's arenas. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking either one,cuz they sound like fun, too!
Elves, fairies, nymphs, dwarves, vampires, and Santa Claus were very real during the Renaissance, as were brownies, trolls, and ogres. Careful where your modern mind takes you.
I tend to prefer the historically accurate fairs. When done well, they can be both entertaining and educational.
However, I don't mind a mixture of historical and fantasy. Perhaps a "best case scenario" IMHO would be a fair that had both available - fairies, trolls and dragons for the fantasy crowd combined with historical content such as a accurately court or military display for those who are or could be interested.
And, PLEASE, have a certain amount of respect for the time period setting. If it's a straight fantasy fair it may be okay to combine pirates and King Arthur, but if you set your fair in Medieval times or during the reign of King Henry the Whatever, try to at least keep your fantasies consistant with those appropriate to their times. Otherwise, the fair reinforces the idea the the past is a contextless mess of knights, musketeers, Caesar's and Victorian Queens. As Issac Asimov once put it (and probably better than my paraphrase), everything doesn't need to be educational, but things shouldn't mis-educate.
My pet peeve, at least. Differing opinions are welcome.
Faire is my escape from reality, not a history lesson for me. I'm not really a pirate or a noblewoman or a wench or even Scottish, but my garb is all of these things, and I'm happy when I wear it.
I like anything that makes me smile, and if I see fairies, elves, trolls, or whatever, walking around, I'll get a big grin on my face and get happier than ever. I don't think I'd ever wear that kind of garb, but it's fun to see what others come up with. It's just part of what makes faire fun for me.
I'm torn on that one....
Faire is, as Lady Renee put it, my escape. I go there to have a good time, not to have a history lesson. The history lessons I may learn while there are an added bonus. I have recently joined the local SCA shire to learn the historical part of it all, faire is strictly for having fun.
That said, however, I do have a wee bit of an issue when the fantasy part of it gets too far out there. I really don't care to see any anime-type characters, and one year I saw what appeared to be some sort of satanic-demon-swamp monster things (it was not Halloween weekend) that were pretty creepy and definitely out of place. But, I'm not a ren-snob so, as long as they're just there to have fun like the rest of us, they can play, too.
It's all about getting out of the mundane world!
My own personal preference is a mix of both. I like seeing HA garb (or ones that at least look HA), but I also enjoy the elves, fairies, wizards, and pirates. I'm not too sure I'd enjoy seeing some weird Anime creature (except on the Day of Wrong, perhaps) but like someone else mentioned, if that's what makes them happy...
My own character and my husband's even more so, throw historical accuracy right out the window.
And I, like renren, would not enjoy being told what I can or cannot wear.
Well I agree with ann of oaktower. It should be fun. It lets us all excape to another world if even for a short time. I like however the fantsay side of things if it is not over done or in bad taste. As a performer in the renfairs I have to be H/A so my garb has to match with the time of the renfairs. (Henry 5 or Henery 8 or what ever) and when I get the chance to stroll the fairs it is nice to see what others come up with, you know what there idea of the fair is. they come in garb and have fun and that`s what it is about. In this mundane world there is not always people laughing that you can hear but at the renfairs the smiles and laughter is so present that it in itself bring a smile to my face, and it makes it all worth it. ;D
Barring Santa Claus and Stormtroopers, those creatures were real- at least, to the people who lived then. Actually, Santa Claus- Nicholas of Myra- was real too, he just lived and died long before the Renaissance... I think historical accuracy is a wonderful thing, especially in educational acts and demonstrations. But, I enjoy the fantasy side too, and I'd hate to see it banned from my home faire. 'Sides, I'd have to chuck a lot of garb if that happened :) !
Unless you are a cast member, paying customers have the right to dress for faire in the manner that best suits them, within the limits of the law. If one wishes to be H/A, hey - go for it. But the same thing for fairies, goths, Hollywood pirates, Loli's, etc.
For those wishing an all H/A event, then there are other venues.
Well, I have to ask..
What faires do you go to that meet these ideals??
Most faires have some fantasy element mixed in, even most people's idea of a pirate is not h/a. And you certainly cannot control what playtrons wear.
I don't care if the pubs are HA or Fantasy......I like them.....
I'll drink to that!
One of my favorite quotes: "Renaissance faires are an opportunity to wear funny clothing and run amok" ... I wish I knew who to give credit to!
I got started at a faire where workers are required to take faire-sponsored classes on language, custom, history and countless other subjects. Paint colors for booths and other structures have to be approved, as does garb worn by anyone working the faire. All that DOES help create a certain atmosphere at faire, but that faire still has fairies, pirates, and they let peasants wear shoes, and tweaks other details in order to be a (hopefully successful) business.
The guilds have much stricter rules on garb and the making of items. And many friends I know who are active in the SCA makes weapons and garb by hand - using historical methods. They enjoy it.
And I don't have a problem with either. If playing with history and reality gives me a place to play, then so be it.
If stitching an entire courtly wardrobe or crafting fine metal weaponry by hand makes someone happy, I wish them all the fun in the world.
What I'm really trying to say is that there is a place for everyone.
Quote from: Trillium on June 23, 2008, 08:02:06 PM
Well, I have to ask..
What faires do you go to that meet these ideals??
Most faires have some fantasy element mixed in, even most people's idea of a pirate is not h/a. And you certainly cannot control what playtrons wear.
As I said I want the faire to be as HA as possible and would consider not going if large numbers of people dressed as fantastical creatures. I go to The Sterling Renaissance Festival in New York State which is very good for HA as faires go and last year I cannot remember any fantastical creatures at all (with the exception of one person dressed in a bat costume complete with big black abdomen and bug eyes and so on). Perhaps I wasn't looking closely enough but I honestly do not recall any elves or vampires or etc.
What is important, obviously, is having fun and everyone has their own desires of what to experience at a faire. My desires just mean I would never attend many faires around the country.
I suppose I don't see much point in calling something a renaissance festival and having elves and vampires and dwarves present.
Regards,
CB
Taffy Saltwater said it best. The people going to the fair have a right to go to the fair in what ever they want to. The fair is suposse to be fun, and it encourages people to dress up. You know most people don`t have the money or the time to put together a H/A garb, so are you saying they should stay home or just come in mundane clothing. I sure hope not. I`am truly sorry you won`t go to a fair that has pirates and elves and so on, because you are going to miss a lot fun fairs and good company. Blu you have to lighten up and enjoy what is at the fair and judge it as a history project. ;D
This is easy. All of the above.
Why choose? It's not like there's only one faire in existence. I'd prefer a good mix. With no variety, things would get boring real quick. Faire is about one thing; personal enjoyment. Go where you want, and enjoy what you do!
i think i fall in between everyone on this one. im okay with the fantasy stuff, so long as it's within reason. somehow i just don't think people dressed as samurai/ninjas really belong there. if they had feudal japan faires it'd be another thing, but... yeah.
Honestly?
Don't Care.
I go to faire for the atmosphere, for the people. The freedom, really. As long as people are comfy and happy, i'm good.
Like others, I like a bit of both. To me, it's more important that a faire has a Renaissance or medieval-like atmosphere, and it doesn't have to be 100% H/A to achieve that. As far as patrons are concerned, I've said before and I'll say it again - a person who pays to get in is entitled to wear anything they please as long as it's street legal. Yes, I've scratched my head at some ensembles, but cest la vie. It really doesn't put a damper on my experience.
Not to knock anyone who is interested in historical accuracy - if that's what you're looking for in your garb and/or weapons, then go for it. I find the person who strives to be H/A just as interesting as an elf or a pirate. They all add something to the faire.
Quote from: Malcolm on June 23, 2008, 05:35:20 PM
Elves, fairies, nymphs, dwarves, vampires, and Santa Claus were very real during the Renaissance, as were brownies, trolls, and ogres. Careful where your modern mind takes you.
I agree with Malcolm. These things were very real to the people during the Renaissance, because most people believed in at least some of these. It would be analogous to some people today believing in aliens.
I'm very happy with Faires being a good mix, as long as the fantastical creatures on cast are historically accurate ;)
I couldn't care less what the paytrons dress as.
I have thought about that from time to time and I think it would be very difficult to be truly historical. I think it would be impractical to expect everyone working there to raise their own (now extinct) breed of sheep, shear and card the wool by hand, make it into thread and then weave that into cloth (with the proper thread count, no less) and then cut and sew it by hand. It would be interesting to try it, of course, but to expect the whole faire to do it, not going to happen. Same with flax to linen, a very labor intensive process and that's just the garb. Consider everything else and it would be next to impossible. We don't have the same climate or resources. We are not illiterate, or controlled by the church, we find it difficult to assume the whole mentality. We aren't going to forego bathing and reek every weekend, or have fleas and other contagious diseases. We aren't going to execute/behead someone or use torture devices, etc. We don't want to start another war between the Protestants and Catholics. I think it's best to have a Renaissance theme flavor. :)
I watched "Manor House" on PBS, where they put present day people back into an Edwardian time frame. It was a culture shock and an interesting experiment.
People really belived the world was flat and that there were sea monsters, dragons and mermaids, back then. They did think unicorns were real, too. So, I think having that at faires isn't so much fantasy, as it is what they believed. They also believed in fairies and gnomes.
I like middle of the road.
While I appreciate learning about the time & era of a Faire, I don't need historical accuracy, especially from the playtrons. My kids (for better or worse) see Faire as an excuse to wear their Halloween costumes. DS dressed as a Grim Reaper this year & DD as an Asian girl & a young Ren girl. Sometimes she just wants to wear her fairy wings & fairy feelers with her regular clothes. I tend to wear 'danes so my attire is really, really not H/A.
Which brings up another point. If we want true H/A are we going to require visitors to rent costumes & speak in accents? Shall we have accurate toilets (I can only imagine the stench after a few hours in the hot TX sun!) & as someone else mentioned, not bathe for a week at a time.
Personally, our Faire would not be complete IMO without performers like Twig the Fairy. My DD would be very, very sad were their no Fairies at 'her' faire.
Quote from: Whistler Fred on June 23, 2008, 05:58:33 PM
And, PLEASE, have a certain amount of respect for the time period setting. If it's a straight fantasy fair it may be okay to combine pirates and King Arthur, but if you set your fair in Medieval times or during the reign of King Henry the Whatever, try to at least keep your fantasies consistant with those appropriate to their times.
You must have been to GLMF....what, two or three years ago? I have pictures of that atrocity. It was weird, but fun. The entertainment director has to have balls to feature a duel between King Arthur and the Pirate King as part of the cast show. I think it was ad-lib, but one weekend Guinevere was kidnapped by pirates and tied to a tree.
QuoteOtherwise, the fair reinforces the idea the the past is a contextless mess of knights, musketeers, Caesar's and Victorian Queens. As Issac Asimov once put it (and probably better than my paraphrase), everything doesn't need to be educational, but things shouldn't mis-educate.
Think about the average paytron. To many of them the past IS a contextless mass. Fairs are great because they give those people a taste of something they won't see anywhere else.
To first answer the question posed in the original post - I say BOTH!
As a reenactor who does portray a pirate, I must say this - Pirates ARE H/A! As long as man (or woman) has been able to put a raft/curragh/canoe/trireme, etc on water there have been pirates! Julius Ceasar was captured by ... pirates. Queen Elizabeth I recieved Grace O'Malley, the "Irish Pirate Queen" at her court. So yes, pirates are period.
All that being said - GAoP pirates (Jack Rackam, Blackbeard, etc) or 'Hollywood pirates' (Jack Sparrow, Capt. Barbossa) are NOT H/A at a Medieval and/or Renaissance Faire/Festival. On that issue, I will be the first to agree.
As someone else pointed out, folks of the time, espeically the poor classes, DID belive in fairies, phookas, elves, trolls, ogres, changelings, etc. Vampires ... eh, try old Transylvania and Romania for those folk tales. If your milk went bad - fairies, elves, etc had been at it. If the cow went dry, the elves, fairies, etc made her go dry.
Patrons/Playtrons - wear what you will that keeps you out of trouble with the law and that you are comfortable in. At least you dressed up and are wanting to be part of this world of escape. Huzzah to you!!! Some of my best lane interactions have been with a patron/playtron that came dressed as something not ren faire period. I love these folks, they want to play and will play just as hard as your fellow cast/stage member.
So should faires be strictly one or the other - I don't think so. I think we all need a bit of fantasy to make our lives better. And what better place to get that fantasy than at your local ren faire?
Just my two cents worth, I apologize in advance if I offend anyone.
Fair Winds!
Emerald
"I believe in Faires, Dragons, Good Men, and Other Fantasy Creatures"
The "different kinds of faires for different tastes" makes sense.
My *personal* favorite is "realistic fantasy" - that is, fantastical is fine so long as it fits within the general milieu of 'old timey' Europe. For example, I'd actually find someone in perfectly reproduced 15th century Japanese regalia more out of place than a well-done Mr. Tumnus if that makes any sense.
So -
elves and fairies and ents and such? neat! Especially if they're well done!
Pirates and gypsies? Enh, kinda late period but what's lost in authenticity is more than made up for in atmosphere and fun.
Ithilien Rangers all done up in costumes that look stolen off WETA's lot? Ooohhhh.. awesome!
Kids in shiny polyester princess dresses and Halloween costume cloaks worn over jeans and sneakers? Enh, they're trying... and they prolly look better than I did at 15. :)
But stormtroopers or trekkies playing "landing party" buzzing everybody with plastic tricorders? *shudder* yuck.
The better angels of my nature know its wrong, but the unseelie wriggling on the other shoulder keeps saying she hopes they get on the bad side of the Viking.... toy phasers versus steel axe sounds interesting, says she.
No! Bad fairy! bad! :)
Blu, is this the flying rodent you speak of ?
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/bloodymolly/sterling/sterling2007002-1.jpg)
I don't believe that, in this day and age, it is possible to actually be historically accurate, but if people want to try, then I say they should go for it. But I can't imagine being offended by others who want to play "dress-up", just like we do, but don't have the knowledge or the money it takes to make it perfect. I say that everyone should go with what they are comfortable in and what makes them feel good about themselves, as long as it is within the limits of the law (as I would hate to see anyone carted off to jail for playing make-believe). The entire purpose of our kind of event is fantasy. We do not actually live in Elizabethan England, so no matter how we dress, we are all fantasizing, and I figure it is not my place to tell anyone else how to practice it.
One of the largest faires in the country, Bristol, has Queen Elizabeth I as the monarch. And who runs around the lanes? Robin Hood, Maid Marion, and the band of Merry Men. As well as the glade where the fairies spin a net. And these are cast members, not playtrons.
Certainly not historically accurate, or even from the same time period, but judging from the crowds that attend every weekend, it's what the paying public wants -- or else they wouldn't be there. I think commercial faires have to try to appeal to a wide variety of people to keep the revenue coming.
And if it was truly historically accurate, I wouldn't be there. At my age, I'd be dead already!
Historically realistic events have their place, to be sure. But I enjoy myself much more when it's a big ol' mixed up jambalaya of period and fantasy characters. My 'persona' is a post-Commonwealth English pirate, not an Elizabethan sea dog. Not very fond of thrum caps and short coats, thank you, and buff coats make me chafe.
Strictly enforced temporal restrictions are fine and dandy in situations like, say, Williamsburg, VA, or Fort Snelling in MN, where it's an immersive environment for the sake of education. To be able to walk up to an actor who represents a person from that time and is well versed in the history and their station can be enthralling, but not something I'd want a steady diet of.
Give me a faire where people can be what they choose and explore the history of it as much or as little as they want. Keep the environment free, and you'll find that even those guys in Starfleet uniforms end up learning something. They might just surprise you by trading in their phaser for a kilt, ladies. (There might have been a little roguemouth in there somewhere... ;))
Besides, who's to say Darth Vader wasn't a contemporary of Henry VIII?
Quote from: Lady Renee Buchanan on June 24, 2008, 08:50:37 AM
One of the largest faires in the country, Bristol, has Queen Elizabeth I as the monarch. And who runs around the lanes? Robin Hood, Maid Marion, and the band of Merry Men. As well as the glade where the fairies spin a net. And these are cast members, not playtrons.
Certainly not historically accurate, or even from the same time period, but judging from the crowds that attend every weekend, it's what the paying public wants -- or else they wouldn't be there. I think commercial faires have to try to appeal to a wide variety of people to keep the revenue coming.
And if it was truly historically accurate, I wouldn't be there. At my age, I'd be dead already!
In my earlier post, when I referred to fairs that combine both historical and fantasy elements, I confess that Bristol was on my mind. Prior to joining the cast, and even afterward as time allows, I enjoy shows like the falconers or the cringe-inducing but fascinating barber-surgeon presentations. But I also enjoy seeing my younger kids playing with the Fantasticals and watching the fights between Robin Hood and the Evil Sheriff, although putting Robin Hood in the Sixteenth Century took some suspension of belief for me. And I particularly love the music, whether on period instruments (a rare thing at most fairs these days - alas!) or on "modern" guitars and fiddles.
Quote from: Lairde Guardn MCrack on June 23, 2008, 08:11:36 PM
I don't care if the pubs are HA or Fantasy......I like them.....
What he said! ;D
I could never get a frozen Bellini at an H/A event. Hot weather + no frozen drinks = < happy Taffy.
Dressed Victorian for the Dicken's event in Waxahachie for Christmas, my wife and I wandered down to the "Bethlehem Revisited" at the local church. They recreate the "Little Town of Bethlehem" complete with a Market, Inn, Synagogue, shops and homes. Two casts and six "stops" in their performances and Baby Jesus is born every half-hour.
When asked, "Why art thou attired so strangely?" by the young shepherd, my wife replied, "We won an all-expenses-paid weekend trip from our good friend H. G Wells in his time machine. Wouldn't you want to come here?"
They were properly pleased.
Quote from: Sir Gawain on June 24, 2008, 05:48:23 AM
Blu, is this the flying rodent you speak of ?
(http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g264/bloodymolly/sterling/sterling2007002-1.jpg)
YES
I have to admit I loved those people.
Regards,
CB
Bristol is my home faire and I think they have the perfect mix of historical and fantasy. The queen and her court strive to be H/A and do a wonderful job at it! But we also have the Fantasticals---fairies, elves, etc that seem to fit in quite nicely. As has been mentioned already, people in this time period DID believe in fairies and other like creatures.
The Robin Hood characters were a little strange to me at first, but it is so well done that I don't have a problem with it at all.
I am part of a musical ensemble (Courtly Consorte) that plays at Bristol 3-4 Saturdays each season. Although we don't use historically accurate instruments (plastic recorders, modern guitar, modern violin), we only play music that would have been heard at that time in history.
The mix of H/A and fantasy are just right, IMHO. :)
I don't know of any faire that I regularly attend that is strictly HA.
Realistically, I would never want to live in those times anyways... just visit.
My main interest is in pirates, I spend a large amount of time reading and learning about them and there is no way I would want to have been one in any era. The average lifespan for a pirate was about 2 years at sea. By that time their bodies were so screwed up from malnutrition and disease that they either died or retired to a miserable life on shore trying to scrape by. Some of course were exceptions but the great majority were pretty bad off.
As far as the time period I normally act out in and accuracy... well, my first thing I am grateful for is that people bathe... more than a couple of times a year. If we wanted to stick with HA all the time, then there would be FAR less nobles and merchants and FAR more unwashed peasants.
So, in my view it's a matter of how much HA do you really want? If you really want accuracy then go for it, but for me... I just want to have fun playing.
Scarborough is my 2nd fav faire and is about as accurate as I care to be.
I Love the fantasy elements of TRF, everything from the mythological critters to even the holodeck malfunctioning trekkies (provided they really play into it).
Having said all that... my real point is, go to the faires you want... have fun with what you want to and don't let the parts your not into ruin the fun you could be having.
*HA would mean I couldn't have rum... screw that*
Well, here is my 2 shillings worth, I'm in accord with most everything that has been said. I like the H/A, and thats just me. I try to be H/A, but the time frame of my grab is mid to late 17 century to mid 18th century, because that is the hay day of Highlanders and Kilts and I primitive camp also. In my camp all mundane stuff is put away and my camp looks period. I've done Civil War Reenacting for many years and my garb was right for late 63 early64 and I still had the costume Nazi's try to nit pick to death, and all that dose it take way the fun and why we come to faires and event. But yes I would like to see faires lean more to H/A then fantasy. But not all are in to history like I am and want fantasy, and I'm fine with that just don't try to twist history into fantasy. Some garb pushes the envelope, like chain mail thongs, but thats what you like,OK so be it. As for me I will try to be H/A, as my brother and I joke, while walking around Sacrby and TRF,in are kilts and wool coats with wool waste coats and full kits " Dame I'm hot in all this, But By God I Look Good"!
What this is all about is having fun, and if your not, well it's time to move on.
Personal opinion here, having worked at a strictly historical faire, both!
The faire I was on cast for was so strictly historical, that our costume vetter wouldn't allow dresses that were machine sewn. Which actually caused alot of issues.
I feel that a faire should have historical cast members, but not be so strict that all seams have to be hand-sewn. But there is no way to control what guests wear, and I think fairies should be encouraged, along with other fantasy creatures. I see the appeal of a strictly historical faire, but having been among the inside workings, it is very hard to achieve, and even harder on the volunteers that are the cast.
But yes, like others have said, Faire is meant to be entertaining for all involved, and unfortunately, strictly historical faires have a tendency to lose that for the cast because of the strict rules on garb and props. So, I go for both, but am not neurotic about historical accuracy.
Poppycock! Balderdash!
This question has always puzzled me. If a faire owner wants his cast members HA, then so be it. Hand sewn stitching? Give me a break! Who would examine a costume that closely? Jeez!
As far as playtrons go - if it looks good baby, wear it! HA or not. If not being HA offends some people, they have the choice to stay home. If a playtron is going to the trouble and expense to come in garb, then I say let your freak flag fly!
If someone is so darn concerned about HA and the whole "immersion" aspect, they might want to look into participating in SCA events only. Although, I've been to some of those and noticed quite a few non HA things from sweat pants, tennis shoes, work boots to RVs. And that duct tape on the PVC weapons is a real mood breaker IMHO.
Have a few pints at the pub and you won;t give a darn what anyone is wearing! LOL. Faire is a festival, a party! Have fun
Now to be fair, I have known a few SCA members that I feel sure went out into the woods and killed their very own polyesters, and skinned them. They make very nice, wrinkle-free garb.
On the flip side, we went to a faire (not our home faires) where I felt like we were one of the few playtrons and mundanes kept coming up and asking us questions like where's the cash machine, where's the bathroom....because we were told we looked like staff! No biggy, we just couldn't be helpful since it was not our home faire. So....I'd rather be at a faire where people are dressed be it medievil, renaissance, fantasy or far off places....but leave the Klingon, storm trooper, batman costumes for a Halloween party.
I honestly feel more of a kindred spirit with a person dressed like a Roman Legion or LOTR ranger than a mundane at faire.
I've not done an SCA event, but would love to, and that is where'd I fully expect a high degree of HA or at least a really earnest attempt at it.
I do think cast members should pick a time period and try to stick with it with a somewhat historically based storyline. A Robin Hood in Elizabethan times seems a bit odd, but if it entertains the masses that keep the gates open....then I'm all for keeping the gates open so the playtrons can play.
I think a mix of both is a healthy thing with the personal exception of futuristic characters. As most have said, people back then believed in fantasy. The court was known to put on "pageants" and Henry liked to play Robin Hood so this character along with other medievals are not so far fetched.
Quote from: Peddlin on June 24, 2008, 02:49:44 PM
Now to be fair, I have known a few SCA members that I feel sure went out into the woods and killed their very own polyesters, and skinned them. They make very nice, wrinkle-free garb.
Are the polyesters related to naugas?
No the polyesters are a hybrid of Pygmy sheep from the Shetland island of Scotland.
If a faire is open to the public, and I go as a playtron and are expected to be or not allowed in unless I'm HA, I'm also getting paid to be there. Faire is supposed to be fun. HA is neat, but it is not the end all be all. I look at it this way: Faire is an outline, you get the big picture. The SCA is the in depth research paper that took all semester to write.
And I believe naugas are native to the southern United States. ;D
I always find it helpful to visit the actual site where the historical event took place, to get a better "feel" for it. Well, I pick up on vibes, I guess that's the best way to put it.
I watched something on PBS, I think it was Globe Trekker, where they went to a joust. WOW that was impressive! Perhaps, if one wants a more historical venue, visiting a European faire/event would be a better solution.
Just a suggestion.
I've seen Stormtroopers, Jedi Knights, Naked Fairies pushing a mundane stroller, Anime Characters, and Roman Centurions, dragons, even Civil War soldiers...
...I've even seen a Centaur.
None but the Civil War soldier, even warranted a second glance, (The Civil War soldier was extremely drunk...) and the fairy was not what I had expected...
I expect the Faire cast to be "Historically accurate", but as far as the general public is concerned, almost anything goes...
...and that just adds flavor to the day.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=N0EDrtEBsA8 (http://youtube.com/watch?v=N0EDrtEBsA8)
This video I think ties in nicely with the topic.
I think it would be, well, extremely dull to attend a Faire where it was being imposed upon everyone that they had to be H/A
Why do people GO to RenFaires? I don't know about you folks, but I love the escape... and part of that is fantasy.
At BARF, we have an overwhelming number of Pirates (go figure, those Tampa Buccaneers...) and most of them are attired as Elizabethan era even though the reigning king is Henry VIII.
We also have fairies and a troll.
Sure, there's a storyline going on and there're things that someone could take away from the Faire that are historical lessons... but the principal reason for being there is to have fun.
Here's how I figure it... if someone came up to me and told me I wasn't "Period Correct" or "Historically Accurate" at the Faire, I'd remind them that it would be completely "Period Correct" for me to knock their lights out for the insult... or challenge them to a duel...
but I'm not...
so perhaps they should be happy for the fantasy element?
;D
Wow! Somebody else who has been around long enough to remember Naugahyde. I hear they make great upholstery material. ;)
If faires are re-enactment oriented (there are a few), then HA is fine.
But the term Renaissance Fair is already an anachronism, so, it seems kinda silly to even discuss it.
That said, even the most hardcore re-enactments I have ever seen, did not have anywhere near enough death, disease, mud, dirt and poop (both human and animal) to be considered HA. Maybe HA lite. The point of those groups is instruction and a certain amount of vicarious living. RenFairs have not been that to date.
I believe Renaissance Fairs as a group (with a few exceptions) are already starting off based on fantasy. Fantasy in the way of what we wish it was like. It isn't real, and can't be so, it just makes you feel like what you see in movies or read in books. The good stuff . . . romance, fun, mead, etc.
I'd find it very hard to visit a faire where I couldn't wear my faerie wings if I felt like it. I love MDRF because it's got the HA aspect, of course, in the cast and the living history pavilion but?
There are people there dressed as faeries. There are knights from the Dark Ages. Crazy Viking barbarian dudes. People dressed in Victorian getup. Et cetera. It makes things more fun, as far as I'm concerned. I even like the stormtroopers. :)
First off I love history. But to got to the faire is fun so fantasy is alright with me.
I do have a little problem with stormtroopers and star trek appearing, but if they can stand the heat of their garb. More power to you.
I have a squirrel puppet on my shoulder, kids think it real so why burst their bubble. Life will do it some enough.
So I go with both.
When encountering those free-roving nosebleeds who wish to critique, nitpick or otherwise annoy, I've found a simple "I reject your reality and substitute my own" takes care of things nicely. ;D
Quote from: escherblacksmith on June 25, 2008, 08:24:27 AMI believe Renaissance Fairs as a group (with a few exceptions) are already starting off based on fantasy. Fantasy in the way of what we wish it was like. It isn't real, and can't be so, it just makes you feel like what you see in movies or read in books. The good stuff . . . romance, fun, mead, etc.
This! Let's face it, an entirely and truly Historically Accurate faire would be...well...depressing at best. It would smell awful, the food would be terrible (no faire food jokes) as the appearance of the food was far more important than taste (urine was occasionally used for food coloring), bowing to Royalty wouldn't just be something fun, it would be required and, depending on the current ruler, deadly if not done.
The history represented at faires is how we'd
like it to have been. Most of us have a tainted view of things thanks, in part, to LotR, PotC, various and sundry novels and so on.
That said, to the 'Ren Nazis' and HA fans, enjoy SCA and other reenactments and think of a day at faire as an enjoyable, easy to read fantasy novel.
Aye!
Very well said, Maelstrom!
I love Bristol, because it is both HA (the Court) and fantasy (the fairies). The trekkies...Well, I could do without them. At the moment, however, I'm just glad my first faire wasn't like that Nebraska video. I probably wouldn't go again.
The average patron doesn't even know that Robin Hood and Elizabeth are separated by centuries. The fairs I attend are in the sticks of the midwest, most of the patrons are bumpkins and rednecks, and you have to consider that most people are a product of the public schools. To them, anything English that happened before 1776 is an amorphous historical mass.
My crew and I go to a lot of sci-fi conventions as well, and we wear our fair garb. I've never had any complaints from trekkies, and I wouldn't dream of complaining to them at a fair. A stormtrooper is a paying customer. Does anyone really want to turn them away at the gate?
I believe the public has voted on this subject long ago...add up the bottom line of all the Ren-Fairs (argueably a mix of H/A and fantasy), then compare it to the bottom line of the SCA and other such groups...wonder who makes more? Lose the fantasy and you lose the playtrons/paytrons...Lose the playtrons/paytrons and you lose the income...lose the income and you lose the fair. I'll take the mix.
Well, if you're going to ask what I really want.. :D
What I'd really want is for a stuffy French maitre'd in funny ren regalia and a crazy thick accent to pull said trekkies or stormtroopers aside at the gate, hand them each a poofy shirt and doublet for the day, and say "I do believe sirs would be more comfortable in zis...."
Maybe even have a jester hat on hand for the Klingons to cover the bumps. Then they can protest "I am NOT a Merry Man" all they want. :)
I kid, but there really is 'stepping on other people's fun,' and I really do believe that happens when you drag sci-fi into faire. It just totally breaks the "old timey" mood, and while it's fun for said trekkies playing "holodeck" it can totally break the spell for others.
I suppose I see it much the same way as wearing jeans to the opera or an evening gown to the barn dance. It's legal sure.. but it's rather rude and inconsiderate. Where along the fantasy and H/A line the line breaks, well that's for a given faire to decide, but at least for my taste it's well and away on this side of blatant high-techy sci-fi. Faire is not a con*, and I think it's just basic good manners to not go out of one's way to break the milieu of a given setting.
*nor is it a stitch-counting, "what did you dye that wool with m'lord" recreationist event, happily granted.
I agree with Thistle regarding any sci-fi or technological characters such as Anime, Darth Vader (Yes I have seen on youtube a number of videos of Darth riding a dragon ride, having an audience with the king, walking around ren faires and etc), stormtroopers, and etc. It just doesn't fit in at a ren faire and is rude in my opinion. Now there are plenty of non-garbed patrons which is fine because they decided not to dress up, but when someone does dress up the least they can do is wear something remotely appropriate for the event.
Regarding fairies, nymphs, trolls, dwarves and so on I read a number of replies to this topic and honestly never thought about the fact that people in the renaissance DID believe in the existence of these types of creatures. So I suppose I am not so opposed to these fantastical creatures at faires.
If I DID own a faire I WOULD refuse admission to anyone dressed as Star Trek, Storm Troopers, Darth Vader, etc. Perhaps I would give them the option of renting a costume. Of course they would be paying customers but the benefit of the few dollars admission from them would be more than offset by the damage to the faire's image which would occur when Queen Elizabeth gets scanned by a tricorder and the starship security chief shoots the queen's guards with his phaser rifle...or when Darth Vader tries to convert a young knight from the joust to be a "powerful Jedi".
Regards,
CB
Quote from: Cobaltblu on June 23, 2008, 04:45:24 PM
What do you think?
Should faires be fantasy, historically accurate or a mix?
Should there be fantastical creatures such as elves, fairies, nymphs, dwarves, vampires, hobbits, santa claus, stormtroopers and etc allowed (on staff or by playtrons)?
My personal opinion is it should be as historically accurate as possible and fantastical creatures should not be allowed either on staff or by playtrons. I wouldn't go to a fantasy faire or one with any fantastical creatures on staff...and wouldn't go to any faire where a lot of playtrons were dressing as fantastical creatures.
Regards,
CB
If it didn't have the fantastical creatures, it wouldn't be fun. If it isn't fun, people don't come. If people don't come, it goes bankrupt and out of business.
What one may want is not necessarily entertainment.....and Ren Fests are entertainment. People want to experience the fantasy version, not the realistic version. People would absolutely hate living back then: no hot and cold running water, no plumbing, something of a social caste system with potentially no way to break out, one may win the sword fight but die in agony weeks later from blood poisoning from a knife cut, no realization with a deadly result of microbes because Louis Pasteur wasn't around yet (hello, childbirth fever)....and so forth.
But also, look at it from another way. You and I know that he is a stormtrooper because we have seen the movies. But what if we were from back then? What would he be to us? In all probability, a knight from a strange land with exquisite armor ................. but nevertheless, a knight in armor.
So, in a sense, he's very realistic. It is only our knowledge of the present which makes him not realistic.
Further, keep in mind that the paying audience maybe in their own fantasy, such as I am. Time Traveling Anthropologist. I go to have fun and take pictures. In a sense of the fantasy, by allowing for the faeries, that justifies the time traveling anthropologist because the future is learning things about the past that they didn't know............
.................but if one makes it all absolutely historically accurate, then why bother with a time travel mission?
In living in my fantasy, on my next time mission, for Tx RF, I am planning to go somewhat native. But to go native must agree with why I go in the first place, to take pictures. I love the suggestion by another RF.com of (words to that effect) "perhaps you are a rich landowner who got tired of the trappings and comfort of wealth and left that behind to become a traveler. Your camera could have been a gift from some gypsys you spent several weeks with."
Now, I love that and my concept of such a person crosses between Gulliver and Whovian.....with the costume being more Whovian. So I'm searching the catelogs of what would fit around the time, but be more of a gentleman than a nobleman, what would be Whovian. And if it is cold when I go, I won't be wearing a cape but a llama wool parka.
Is that absolutly historically accurate? Perhaps not .......... but who cares? It's suppose to be fun!
Why go to a Ren Fest? Most people left history back in school ....... they probaly aren't that anxious to go back to it.
Keep in mind, this is an entertainment industry ............... not an educational one.
*note to self*
Don't go to CB's faire. I am unwanted and not historically accurate enough and will be turned away at the gate.
Thanks for the heads up on that one. I'll take my money elsewhere.
MG
Quote from: Cobaltblu on June 25, 2008, 11:00:27 PM
If I DID own a faire I WOULD refuse admission to anyone dressed as Star Trek, Storm Troopers, Darth Vader, etc. Perhaps I would give them the option of renting a costume. Of course they would be paying customers but the benefit of the few dollars admission from them would be more than offset by the damage to the faire's image which would occur when Queen Elizabeth gets scanned by a tricorder and the starship security chief shoots the queen's guards with his phaser rifle...or when Darth Vader tries to convert a young knight from the joust to be a "powerful Jedi".
Regards,
CB
One thing to keep in mind is that you would not be just refusing admission to a person dressed like a Storm Trooper. That Storm Trooper is going to go back to work & tell his friends 'Don't go to that new Ren Faire. I was dressed up like a Storm Trooper & they wouldn't let me in. I drove all that way to have a day at a Faire & it was all a waste'. That is not good for business.
Also, where are you going to draw the line, age-wise? As I said in a previous post, my son dressed up as a Grim Reaper this year & my daughter dressed up as an Asian girl. I see kids every year in some form of Halloween costume. Its fun for them. My daughter plans out what she's going to wear every weekend, depending on her mood & the weather. She's come up with some...interesting combinations (fairy feelers + fairy wings + Ren dress = a very happy daughter) but she loves every minute of it. I've seen more than a few Goth-looking teens walking around Faire in platform boots & lots of black.
I honestly don't think it damages a Faires image to occasionally have cast interactions with fantasy or non-Ren characters. Now, I would not want to see Darth Vader & several Storm Troopers marching in a Faire parade every week but if the cast King & Queen see Darth & comment 'My lord, you must have come from a land far, far away' I don't have a problem with that.
"No doublet, no broadsword, no service."
No thank you.
Quote from: Cobaltblu on June 25, 2008, 11:00:27 PM
I agree with Thistle regarding any sci-fi or technological characters such as Anime, Darth Vader (Yes I have seen on youtube a number of videos of Darth riding a dragon ride, having an audience with the king, walking around ren faires and etc), stormtroopers, and etc. It just doesn't fit in at a ren faire and is rude in my opinion. Now there are plenty of non-garbed patrons which is fine because they decided not to dress up, but when someone does dress up the least they can do is wear something remotely appropriate for the event.
I agree. I think that it's great for people to use the renaissance period as a guidline and add their own fantasy embellishments. I obviously did. I wanted to make my own armor and liked the idea of chain mail armor and leather armor. I came up with a design and made it the way I wanted but didn't got too crazy with the fantasy aspect(at least I don't think). I think I fit in at the faire and people seem to like it.
I do believe it is rude to dress as a stormtrooper, ect because of the intent behind it (I'm not talking about small children in halloween costumes). I think that most of the people who do that are deliberately trying to be disruptive and are mocking the event. Like someone has already stated, it's like going to a black tie event and wearing ripped jeans and a dirty t-shirt.
Quote from: DT_Masters on June 26, 2008, 05:17:39 AM
If it didn't have the fantastical creatures, it wouldn't be fun. If it isn't fun, people don't come. If people don't come, it goes bankrupt and out of business.
What one may want is not necessarily entertainment.....and Ren Fests are entertainment. People want to experience the fantasy version, not the realistic version. People would absolutely hate living back then: no hot and cold running water, no plumbing, something of a social caste system with potentially no way to break out, one may win the sword fight but die in agony weeks later from blood poisoning from a knife cut, no realization with a deadly result of microbes because Louis Pasteur wasn't around yet (hello, childbirth fever)....and so forth.
But also, look at it from another way. You and I know that he is a stormtrooper because we have seen the movies. But what if we were from back then? What would he be to us? In all probability, a knight from a strange land with exquisite armor ................. but nevertheless, a knight in armor.
So, in a sense, he's very realistic. It is only our knowledge of the present which makes him not realistic.
[/quote]
Wise you are DT Masters. Blinded by his own feelings CB is.
Many children, in quite a few different cultures "Dress up and Play" at various games, I've done it, and chances are so has everyone else on these forums at one time or another...
There is a similar parallel with Renaissance Festivals, and it is not "If you want to play with us, dress like us..."
The one point to remember is that the "Stormtrooper/Trekker/Anime" character took the time to appear in costume in order to share in the fun, Historically accurate or not.
They want to be seen, and they want people to look at them, and in a place where almost everyone is in a costume, some folk must go to extremes in order to stand out and be seen!
I have many doublets, and costume pieces, I always appear in period garb, yet I drove a Jeep to get to the fest, I paid my entry fee with plastic, called home to check on my dogs with a cell phone, took medicine to get over the hangover from the previous days festing, and I still feel at home there, so why wouldn't Darth Vader?
Amen to that. What an awesome post. I think you really hit the nail on the head here.
Quote from: Angus on June 26, 2008, 09:41:30 PM
There is a similar parallel with Renaissance Festivals, and it is not "If you want to play with us, dress like us..."
The one point to remember is that the "Stormtrooper/Trekker/Anime" character took the time to appear in costume in order to share in the fun, Historically accurate or not.
They want to be seen, and they want people to look at them, and in a place where almost everyone is in a costume, some folk must go to extremes in order to stand out and be seen!
i would agree with that, but there are plenty of conventions out there for those guys. you don't see people showing up to anime/scifi cons in ren garb, do you?
*shifty eyes* Actually theChuck?
I do. And I'm usually one of them. Any excuse to wear a kilt, right? Plus, you can pass off garb as cosplay rather easily. "Me? I'm william wallace!"
Quote from: theChuck on June 26, 2008, 11:11:13 PM
i would agree with that, but there are plenty of conventions out there for those guys. you don't see people showing up to anime/scifi cons in ren garb, do you?
I wear ren garb at sci-fi conventions. We sell fairy wings at both fairs and conventions, friends of ours sell thousands of dollars worth of elf ears at both. We couldn't exist if the patrons didn't want it. The Stormtroopers play along with it. At one con last year a squad of them walked past us in the food court, and the leader said "Watch out, they have big bugs here."
Quote from: theChuck on June 26, 2008, 11:11:13 PM
i would agree with that, but there are plenty of conventions out there for those guys. you don't see people showing up to anime/scifi cons in ren garb, do you?
Ummm.... I know here in Oklahoma a number of us rennie performers who take our acts to Cons (sci-fi and anime) to fill in dates on our performance schedules. I will be taking my troupe to DEFCON 7 in August (our first Con) and the owners are very excited about our "crossing over." From what I've heard, Rennies are taken very well at Cons.
Just my tuppence,
Emerald
I was at a Con here in Orlando not long ago, in garb... and had several Sci Fi people come up to me asking who I was.
I had some fun with it... told them I'm from a book that's not available for purchase yet... but to keep an eye out for it.
Anyone wanna write a book?
I do prefer historically based, and Elizabethan faire because I like the framework to work with. I will, however, attend any faire, other than pure fantasy which holds not interest for me. Now, I use the term historically based because as pointed out earlier, in many, not all cases it would be a much more dreary affair in addition to none of us are completely 100% historically accurate, just by the fact that historians still don't know exactly is historically accurate in many cases. There is conjecture and theories, but none of us were there.
That being said, there is room for fantasy aspects at faire. I think Bristol is a pretty good example of a good mix, although, in my limited exposure to BRF last year, it did spill over a little bit into court, which gets under my skin a bit. I choose to just ignore the fantasy aspect of it when I am in character. Faire is not only entertainment, but can be educational also... but don't base your masters thesis on anything your learn there.
As far as the Klingons and Stormtroopers.....If they pay to get in the gates, wear what you want. I saw the comment above that it is rude, and I'll have to respectfully disagree with that opinion, but it can be distracting and in some cases very funny, I mean common' Stormtrooper in a kilt, that is pretty funny. Rude to me would be showing up at an Elizabethan faire, dress as Elizabeth and saying you are queen.
I gave some further thought about whether or not it is rude to have Stormtroopers, Darth Vader, Anime Characters, Star Trek, etc at a Renaissance festival.
I know many people may think it is cool or novel to see a few Stormtroopers at a Renaissance Festival because it is something different. However while a few might be weird and cool and interesting...if there are many of these people it certainly damages the atmosphere of the faire and therefor the experience which 99.9% of the patrons have paid to experience.
I know a Stormtrooper may be a paying customer and have heard many comments that if they pay to enter then they have the right to dress how they like...BUT it is still rude because it lessens the Renaissance Experience which 99.9% of the patrons have paid THEIR hard earned money to experience. And while one or two Stormtroopers might be a novel distraction, any significant number of people dressed like this does create a very real detriment to the other 99.9% of patron's experience.
Where do you draw the line? If you feel that up to 3 Stormtroopers per faire day is an acceptable and novel distraction...then what if a group of 50 shows up for a Star Wars Invasion...or what about 100? I certainly agree that a paying customer at a ren faire should be able to dress like they please however it IS rude if large numbers of people dress in garb which is not remotely related to something renaissance or medieval.
I understand money is money and a ren faire is a business which needs the patrons to feel like they are wanted but any business will not appreciate a large number of patrons coming and dressing in inappropriate attire. The reason the faire's themselves have garb rules for cast members and staff is because they realize their business is portraying the renaissance and providing a quality experience for the 99.9% of customer who attend a renaissance festival for a renaissance experience.
Many restaurants have attire restrictions...and nearly every store has a "No Shirts, No Shoes, No Service" sign. I do not want people to drive for hours to attend a faire and then dress as Darth Vader with 20 Stormtrooper guards as an escort and be turned away at the gate for inappropriate attire...however all it would have taken to avoid this fiasco would be respect for the experience which 99.9% of patrons go to receive.
Maybe I am out of touch with today's society however I always respect the environments I put myself in and respect the experience's others are wishing to have.
Regards,
CB
Quote from: sealclubber on June 27, 2008, 12:03:45 AM
*shifty eyes* Actually theChuck?
I do. And I'm usually one of them. Any excuse to wear a kilt, right? Plus, you can pass off garb as cosplay rather easily. "Me? I'm william wallace!"
Quote from: Synikul on June 27, 2008, 12:12:14 AM
I wear ren garb at sci-fi conventions. We sell fairy wings at both fairs and conventions, friends of ours sell thousands of dollars worth of elf ears at both. We couldn't exist if the patrons didn't want it. The Stormtroopers play along with it. At one con last year a squad of them walked past us in the food court, and the leader said "Watch out, they have big bugs here."
Quote from: Emerald Shaunassey on June 27, 2008, 01:05:54 AM
Ummm.... I know here in Oklahoma a number of us rennie performers who take our acts to Cons (sci-fi and anime) to fill in dates on our performance schedules. I will be taking my troupe to DEFCON 7 in August (our first Con) and the owners are very excited about our "crossing over." From what I've heard, Rennies are taken very well at Cons.
Quote from: Count Adolfo on June 27, 2008, 01:08:26 AM
I was at a Con here in Orlando not long ago, in garb... and had several Sci Fi people come up to me asking who I was.
man, i got shut down on that one. that's okay, though; i'm happy to be proven wrong.
though.. i guess the atmosphere is different. sci fi cons are intentionally multi universe, so you've got people showing up from star wars, firefly, star trek, etc. ren faires are more specific - it's one time period - so it seems a little strange to have an influx of universes that are entirely offtopic. having said this, there are faires out there, like the wicked winter one in new jersey, that are more geared towards all different universe.
i don't feel nearly as strongly about this as cb does, though...
well, I haven't seen a stormtrooper invasion or any seroius amount of sci-fi folks wandering about a fair, so, I would have to assume you have and that is what is driving this.
I have seen "invasions" of Jack Sparrows, I have seen angst-filled Goth herds, I have seen more . . . how shall I put this . . . culturely disabled individuals imbibing a few dozen too many budwiesers and staggering about the grounds then anyone should.
All of these things amuse and annoy me depending on the day. And with infinite more frequency then sci-fi folk, who, so far, are much more cordial and polite then any of the above mentioned groups.
but, that is just me, YMMV.
Ren folk at Sci-Fi conventions? Well, if they're dressed as wench or peasant, they're from STNG, the episode with the Brinloidi and Mariposans. If they're dressed as royals, except for the hair the women are Centauri (can't help ya on the men).
Star Wars/Star Trek/Anime at Ren fest? They paid to get in, so let them in, but why in the world anyone would Want to be so out of place is beyond me.
Goth herds/LOTR/Fantastikals? People 500 years ago did believe that such creatures existed, so go right ahead, we can always refuse to see them (don't be silly, fairies aren't Real!) and thus entertain other people in the area.
Dayna
Let me post a question within this question and not a hijack.
Do you think those that do dress up as Stormtroopers, Darth Vader, Star Trek, Goth vampires are just doing it to grab attention.
I know for me to dress in any Ren Faire style of dress it is 1.) to Add to the atmosphere of the faire and bring it more to life. and 2.) to grab a wee bit of my 15 minutes of fame... i/.e it's infinately more fun to be stopped at faire to have your picture taken or asked if you are the Queen,/Princess/court than just walking around in mundane clothing where you are exaclty like everyone else walking around. No one notices you.
For those that dress in Sci-Fi garb it's a way for them to get a little attention and try to have fun.
Now personally I'm not a fan of those that dress in Sci-Fi, Goth or Anime at faires I think maybe they do it for a wee bit of spotlight.
Honestly if I were running a faire, i'd more likely to deny entrance into the faire with a barbarian or pirate dressed in little to nothing and their DUCKIES hanging out than a Stormtropper. Even though i'd rather NOT see those types at faire.
Just some thoughts.
I understand and pretty much agree with what CB is saying. I do like the fantasy aspect but there is a big difference between medieval fantasy and sci-fi. I enjoy the trolls, dwarves and dragons and they fit in at faire because that kind of thing falls into the medieval genre. Stormtroopers and Star Trekkies don't. I just don't think that it should be a free-for-all. Like CB said, everyone there paid money to get in and they came to see a renaissance festival not a sci-fi convention.
And yes that's fine that people go to sci-fi conventions and wear their faire garb and are accepted. I would imagine that is because the sci-fi genre is much more broad and encompasses most all things fictional and fantasy. Just watch the sci-fi channel and you'll see that.
Quote from: unilady on June 27, 2008, 10:11:34 AM
Ren folk at Sci-Fi conventions? Well, if they're dressed as wench or peasant, they're from STNG, the episode with the Brinloidi and Mariposans.
Or nearly any Season 10 episode of 'Stargate: SG1'. :D
OK where to go with this?
I'm of two minds on this. If the faire is going to try to portray H/A (or as close as you can get) then the entire cast should do that and do it properly. Putting King Henry VIII in King Auther clothing is just flat wrong! Having a 20 something Princess Elizabeth and Anne Boleyn still married to King Henry is wrong too. IF the faire chooses to use real characters from history then do them right. Period end of story.
That being said, if the faire chooses to be a fantasy faire then that is great as well. You know what you are getting when you come in. Carolina Renaissance Faire does a fantasy faire in that they have made up nobility that never existed but they do the faire in the renaissance time period and do it well. They have fairies, ents and all kinds of creatures on cast and that is just fine because they are not trying to be H/A.
As far as patrons or playtrons go, I feel it doesn't matter that the faire is H/A or fantasy or both. Whatever you want to wear as a patron is fine as long as its "street legal". Period end of story. We had a guy come dressed as a bannanna to VARF and while none of us would probably do it, he wasn't given grief for it either because that was HIS choice.
Quote from: escherblacksmith on June 27, 2008, 09:26:19 AM
. . . culturely disabled individuals imbibing a few dozen too many budwiesers and staggering about the grounds then anyone should.
All of these things amuse and annoy me depending on the day. And with infinite more frequency then sci-fi folk, who, so far, are much more cordial and polite then any of the above mentioned groups.
Bingo! Bubba with the beer gut and John Deere hat getting tanked in the pub with his minions (because there's always three or four of 'em) is much more distracting to me than any sci-fi character. But, as long as he doesn't get unruly and start harrassing other patrons, he has the right to be there just like everyone else. Hell, one year at TNRF a guy showed up dressed like Abe Lincoln! Yes, it was distracting, especially since the guy could've been Honest Abe's twin, but everyone had fun with it. At the end of the day it didn't spoil anyone's experience. That's why the argument that those who don't dress in accurate attire spoil the atmosphere doesn't wash with me. Someone once said faire is what you make it, and I couldn't agree more!
Quote from: Lady L on June 23, 2008, 10:47:00 PM
People really belived the world was flat and that there were sea monsters, dragons and mermaids
You mean it's not and there aren't? I'M CRUSHED!!!
I happen to like the fairies and pirates at my home faire and wouldn't change it for the world. St. Louis, being a smaller faire and very family oriented, doesn't get a lot of the odd stuff like the larger ones. We get the occasional Jedi or samurai, but I have to say my favorite "garb" was 3 young men who had grabbed bed sheets (possibly right out of the closet) and turned them into great kilts. I loved em with their swords and shields in hand!
If I wanted H/A I'd join the SCA. I'm happy with faire wear and fun!
I realize that everyone "has a right to be there" and I understand how some people have the opinion that "they're paying customers so let them wear what they want" but where do you draw the line? I wouldn't even begin to suggest a strictly enforced HA faire because I think being that extreme would take the fun out of it for most people. At my home faire (Michigan Ren Fest) it would probably take out half of the vendors too because of the things they sell (fantasy paintings, wax hands, potato skins...yummy, and Bud Light...double yummy). I accept pretty much anything that fits into the medieval or medieval fantasy genre.
At the same time I don't agree with the other extreme of saying "go ahead, wear whatever you want". I think it defeats the purpose of calling it a "renaissance festival". If you say that people can wear whatever they want no matter what, then it just becomes a costume party and we might as well dispense with the renaissance theme altogether. I realize that this is an extreme view and the majority of people will still dress appropriately but I'm just making a point. Maybe storm troopers and Abe Lincoln don't bother you but they bother me and I am a paying customer too. I spent a lot of time and effort to make a costume to wear to the ren fest that would fit into the genre and add to the atmosphere. I don't think it's fair to say that I should be fine with some inconsiderate jerk in a Star Trek uniform, treating the ren fair like it's his own personal costume party or his opportunity to "get attention". If they want to "be noticed or get attention" then they should put together a really great costume that fits in to the faire. I get plenty of attention in my costume AND it fits in.
I'd go with, "wear whatever you want (that's legal) but we really encourage you to wear something that fits in the theme."
I like the stormtroopers and Jedi, personally, as I've said (but then, I'm also a fan of Star Wars :)) and no, I wouldn't want to see the Fest taken over with them but seeing a group of them from time to time? Doesn't bother me in the least.
Of course, costumes like that most often show up on the last day of MDRF which is dubbed the Day of Wrong. Plenty of people do crazy stuff on that day (and I do always wonder what the typical person not "in the know" thinks about it).
Of course. We also have a "day of wrong" and then by all means, go nuts with it!
Well, we've all been arguing about the sci-fi aspect of non h/a, and we all pretty much agree on the fantasy pirate aspect, but what about the 'danes? You could say they're disrespecting the event by wearing modern clothing that would never be worn in the renaissance period. However, you could also compare the trekkies to them, by saying they're wearing what they want and that's comfortable. If the 'danes don't want to dress up, it's fine, but when someone else decides to put in the effort it's not? I don't think so. Besides, they give street performers a little bit more material. Yes, it's fun to comment on a lday's lack of a skirt, and by God, you can see her calves! But how much fun is it to ask Darth Vader about the faraway land such a powerful knight must journey from? Plus, maybe they really do wear clothes like that every day. You never know with those trekkies.
*Realizing that not only did she say she disliked trekkies/stormtroopers/etc before, but has also opened up a huge can of worms, Tigrlily hides behind a privy. Man, it stinks back her!*
Star Wars, Anime, Star Trek, et. al. strike me as rather silly and out of place, but I don't get my knickers in a twist about it. I just shake my head a little, shrug, and have a little more mead. Whateverrr... The goth vampire with a cellphone at TRF a couple of years ago cracked me up though!
At the end of the day, as long as everyone goes home healthy and happy, that's all that matters. And if they learned a little something that day, bonus!
And to be honest a invasion of 100 stormtroopers a awesome thing to see!
I haven't read all of this post, so I could give an honest opinion.
In truth if fairs were truly accurate no one would be able to get within 10 feet of anyone else. Let's face it, personal hygiene was not the order of the day. And would you really want to eat a meal with your fingers, that was served up by someone else's unwashed bare hands?
There is an element of fantasy in every fair, no matter how historically accurate it appears.
That being said. Although I have no problem with anyone who wants to attend a faire in a Sci Fi mode, I do think it sticks out like a sore thumb. A clash of themes if you will.
I would prefer to keep the Sci Fi with the Sci Fi, and the historical romantic with the historical romantic.
Just me two pence on th' subject, Mates.
Quote from: Blackjack Roberts on June 27, 2008, 09:55:44 PM
In truth if fairs were truly accurate no one would be able to get within 10 feet of anyone else. Let's face it, personal hygiene was not the order of the day. And would you really want to eat a meal with your fingers, that was served up by someone else's unwashed bare hands?
You don't have to go that far to make the accuracy argument. Let's start with getting rid of Ye Olde Pepsi Cola, bet the patrons would love that.
And because it must be pointed out:
Star wars is actually period. After all, it did occur long ago....
Quote from: sealclubber on June 28, 2008, 06:33:15 AM
And because it must be pointed out:
Star wars is actually period. After all, it did occur long ago....
You are correct, but remember, it was in a galaxy far, far, away!
I vote for keeping it there. ;D
Quote from: Blackjack Roberts on June 27, 2008, 09:55:44 PM
In truth if fairs were truly accurate no one would be able to get within 10 feet of anyone else. Let's face it, personal hygiene was not the order of the day. And would you really want to eat a meal with your fingers, that was served up by someone else's unwashed bare hands?
wait.. you're saying that not everyone ate chocolate covered bananas and french fries?
YOURE BLOWING MY MIND, MAN
I guess my thought is, if your day at fair can be ruined by what someone else is wearing... wow. I think it might be time to step back and re-evaluate things.
In order to be successful a faire must have a mix of the Fantasy and historical. Even "Faire" during the renaissance had a bit of fantasy thrown in. Altho the mundanes, werein renaissance garb because that was the fashion of the times....I digress.
Pirates used to bug me...but hey lets face it kids love them. 12 Jack sparrows still makes shudder but...whatever.
I love To see Fairey's, and trolls and Barbarians, and Knights, and princess's strolling the lanes. it lends to the magic of Faire.
Furries are a bit creepy, but hey we are Rennies who are we to judge. Star Wars and Star Trek??? Well I guess the comic con doesn't run as long as Faire so even they need a place to go.
I would love to see a 100% historically accurate faire. I would defiantly invest in the research for garb and go in total character for a weekend. It would be an imersion experience that I would love...
William Shakespeare, 'A Midsummer Night's Dream'.
Quote from: DT_Masters on June 26, 2008, 05:17:39 AM
If it didn't have the fantastical creatures, it wouldn't be fun. If it isn't fun, people don't come. If people don't come, it goes bankrupt and out of business.
I can think of at least three examples of living history 'faires' that focus on accurately representing how life was lived in their chosen time period - Old Sturbridge Village (http://www.osv.org/), Plimouth plantation (http://www.plimoth.org/) and Colonial Williamsburg (http://www.history.org/). PP and CW are the two "big" H/A places on the east coast - I'm sure that all over the country there are many other small ones like OSV. (Oh - I just thought of another one - Olde Salem, in Winston-Salem, NC)
These places are constantly investing thousands of dollars in research to come up with new ways to present history to the masses. They both entertain AND educate - and have proven to be VERY effective business models without the need for faeries or wizards.
Now, don't get me wrong - I ADORE fantasy faires. I think they're loads of fun, and I do attend them - but I think it's improper to say that a purely H/A show could not stay in business. CW started back in 1926, when a Williamsburg gentleman saw the decay of the colonial buildings and started their restoration. PP has been around at least as long as I can remember - we went there on a school field trip in the 80's. A H/A presentation IS an effective business model - as has been exhibited by these and other businesses.
Quote
Why go to a Ren Fest? Most people left history back in school ....... they probaly aren't that anxious to go back to it.
Funny - most people I know go to renaissance festivals BECAUSE they are interested in history. They enjoy reading non-fiction books about the time period, and they research aspects of the era that interest them.
The fact remains that probably 95% or more of people who attend renaissance faires are non-garbed patrons ("mundanes") and they are not dressing up at all and they go to a renaissance festival simply to experience the renaissance. Out of the garbed people ("rennies") the vast majority dress in a reasonably renaissance/medieval manner and I assume attend largely to experience the renaissance. However as we have seen in the responses to this post a good percentage of rennies feel scifi characters are fine at a faire.
Non-cast appropriately garbed people add to the atmosphere and help the renaissance faire be successful.
If 95% (mundanes) of the people who attend faires are simply going to experience the renaissance I think there would be a very small negative effect on attendance (and therefor revenue) if a few people who dress in scifi costumes do not go do. However if stormtroopers and trekkies and furries and anime characters do not go, that will increase the authentic atmosphere of the faire which benefits the other 95% mundanes and the other 4.9% rennies.
I am sure since a certain percentage of rennies do not agree on preventing scifi characters from attending...that some might not go to a faire or have fun if scifi characters were prohibited. Perhaps they might not go or have fun because they can't see stormtroopers? Or perhaps they won't go or have fun out of a sense of kinship with the stormtroopers who are having their "rights" trampled on?
By scifi characters I do not mean to include trolls and faeries and elves (which I think are ok since those were "real" in the eyes of people living years ago).
And while it may be true that to many people the past is a jumbled mess...every mundane person knows that furries stormtroopers star trek and so on are not part of the past.
Every mundane also knows elves and faeries are not part of the past however they are at least based on fantasy and legends and could be explained away by the fact that they were real in the eyes of people hundreds of years ago.
Again, regarding the issue of whether the faire can be a success without scifi characters...the faire management usually have strict rules for cast member garb and accent and so on. Those cast rules and restrictions are put into place because management knows what will help and what will harm the faire.
So if you love faire and want faire to be successful why not try to dress vaguely period as the cast already do?
Why not simply be polite and respectful of the obvious intent of the faire management and not dress as a sci-fi character?
The mundanes do not dress in garb but thats ok because they ALSO are not dressing in inappropriate garb which sticks out like a sore thumb and harms the atmosphere.
Regards,
CB
I'm with Gem, if someone else's garb, as they see it, is going to wreck your day, then Ren Faires are probably going to bother you. I'm not a fan of some garb that walks in the door, but it's all revenue and if the fair is going to stay in business...Turning back someone, who is covered (parts that should be clothed showing, are another thing) is going to get onto the news somewhere and end up causing trouble for a faire's reputation.
Honestly, if it were history as it was, and I had to wear lead makeup with vinegar, I think I might take a pass. Especially if there were lice and plague involved.
Quote from: gem on June 29, 2008, 02:19:20 AM
I guess my thought is, if your day at fair can be ruined by what someone else is wearing... wow. I think it might be time to step back and re-evaluate things.
Um, THIS. I agree with what Gem said, wholeheartedly.
What is "appropriate" and "rude" is a very grey area. The folks who like to dress in bunny-fur and chainmail that leave VERY little to the imagination think that they're dressing appropriately. Personally, I find it a bit on the vulgar side. But I don't let it ruin my day - I find something ELSE to look at.
Really - most renaissance festivals are big enough that if you don't like something, take ten steps and there's something new to see.
No Stormtrooper showing up to fair would ruin my day...but it is my right to view them as inconsiderate paychecks, and I do.
Once saw a gentleman dolled up in a frilly sissy girl dress with a matching cabbage patch doll, his scant chain-mail clad mistress was leading him by a chain around his neck. Did it 'ruin my day', no...was it appropriate for the Renaissance Festival, absolutely not! There are lines to be drawn; each individual has their own level of tolerance. In this case I was truley amazed the same management that banned visible belly-buttons on belly-dancers allowed this through the gate.
Showing up at fest dressed as a Bunny Rabbit, Goth Vampire, Stormtrooper, or Sissy Girl will not ruin my day but certainly would not earn my respect (for what that's worth). Arriving at a wedding in a yellowed ripped T-shirt and cut-offs shows a certain lack of respect, same could be said here.
The faire's are the owners' playgrounds in which anyone w/$20, more or less, can play. It is completely up to the owners to dictate the degree, if any, of h/a of their faires. If the faires' standards don't meet mine, I can feel free to stay at home. That, however, punishes no one but me.
Quote from: Taffy Saltwater on June 29, 2008, 07:14:07 PM
The faire's are the owners' playgrounds in which anyone w/$20, more or less, can play. It is completely up to the owners to dictate the degree, if any, of h/a of their faires. If the faires' standards don't meet mine, I can feel free to stay at home. That, however, punishes no one but me.
Absolutely true...It is also true that one can quietly accept the standards or ask management to change them. Personally I like the mix at my fair but would not like to see it degenerate into an "anything goes" Mardi-Gras. I stay away from Mardi-Gras and do not feel 'punished' in the least. The most effective form of feedback is direct to the owners, pro and con. It's a business, most will do what is good for the bottom line, if Stormtroopers bring in the bucks we will see more of them, if they bring in numerous complaints my guess is we would see less. Express your views to fair management if you feel strongly enough, they may just listen.
At BARF I would say about 50% of paid attendees are in garb. I don't ever remember seeing Storm Troopers here or any other characters.
Yes, we do have Trollkenone.
Yes, we do have fairies.
Too cool.
I am sure there were no wenchwalks in the 16th century. Take away my Pepsi?
Perish the thought!
Tell that crying kid over there he can't have pizza because it isn't period?
Um..sure.
If we are historically accurate, do I have to give up my lip gloss?
NO WAY!
And...I love my faire pirates! ;)
Wear what you want. I don't care!
First of all, I'm not saying that any of this is going to "ruin my day". I'm not going to go home and cry into my pillow because I saw a strom trooper, star trek guy or whatever. I think CB is correct when he mentioned the "intent" of the faire and the INTENT of the faire is to create a "renaissance atmosphere". I don't know why anyone would want to come in a sci-fi costume but again, the faire is not a free for all.
I keep seeing the phrase 'Lack of respect'. To me, a person dressing in a Star Trek, Star Wars or other possibly period-inappropriate attire is just saying 'I want to play too!!'. Now, I know what you'll say: 'If they want to play, they can do it in appropriate attire'. But again, what's appropriate? Is a woman dressed in a string bikini airbrush painted like a leopard (which I have seen) appropriate? What about a Roman Gladiator or a guy dressed up like David Tennet Dr Who (both of which I've seen)?
I honestly don't see it as a lack of respect. They're not spitting on the King or Queen. They're not using filthy language loudly at a kid-friendly show. They're dressing up in a costume they like & going somewhere to 'play' with others who like to dress in costumes.
One of the things I love about the Rennies I have met is that they are very welcoming & friendly. This 'dress like I think you should or don't show up' seems to go against everything I've seen & experienced as a Ren Faire patron.
Quote from: Cobaltblu on June 29, 2008, 03:21:12 PM
However as we have seen in the responses to this post a good percentage of rennies feel scifi characters are fine at a faire.
However if stormtroopers and trekkies and furries and anime characters do not go, that will increase the authentic atmosphere of the faire which benefits the other 95% mundanes and the other 4.9% rennies.
I am sure since a certain percentage of rennies do not agree on preventing scifi characters from attending...that some might not go to a faire or have fun if scifi characters were prohibited. Perhaps they might not go or have fun because they can't see stormtroopers? Or perhaps they won't go or have fun out of a sense of kinship with the stormtroopers who are having their "rights" trampled on?
Again, regarding the issue of whether the faire can be a success without scifi characters...the faire management usually have strict rules for cast member garb and accent and so on. Those cast rules and restrictions are put into place because management knows what will help and what will harm the faire.
Is this a huge problem at the fairs you attend? I've never seen more than two or three sci-fi people at once, and not even regularly. Maybe three or four days during the entire run of a fair I'll see a small group like that. It's not that I even disagree with you about it being a little rude, but to me it seems extremely petty to want to turn people away when they aren't causing a huge problem.
I'd have a problem with a fair that did that because if management is so anal retentive that they get their panties in a twist over a couple of stormtroopers, then WHAT ELSE are they going to be anal about? Someone else mentioned banning belly dancers with bare bellies at another fair, that's the kind of idiocy that would follow when someone actually takes the time to make policy and rule changes over a small number of people who wear out of the ordinary costumes. It would be oppressive.
I agree with everyone that said Faire is about escape and fun. Being a long time SCA member I do get my dose of historically accurate portrayal and socializing apart from Faire(s). The one thing that I do find a bit strange, and utterly jarring, is when I see sci-fi characters roaming the streets. Fairies and their kith and kin kind of 'go' with everything else that is going on at Faire, but not storm troopers and the like.
What if the Stormtrooper is wearing a kilt? ;)
Oh and as far as the bellydancers having to cover their bellies, it wasn't all dancers, it was those that are workers who are not contracted to dance.
I believe you're talking about a Different faire than the other person. A couple years ago it did indeed come down from faire management that bellybuttons were to be covered at all times during faire hours, whether you were dancing or not. The only navels to be seen were on oranges or patrons.
To the people who say things like Plimoth Plantation and Fort Mackinack show that a STRICTLY H/A faire can work...they are 2 very different things! The living history attractions really are Museums. Sure, there are people dressed in very acturate costumes, and all the buildings and stuff in them are period correct, and there are people demonstating crafts using the strictly historical methods, like some faires have, but the primary intent of the museum is to teach people about history and what life was like back then. Do you EVER see someone who doesn't work at one of those places come in costume? Not so much. People go there to learn, not play. Yes, they make learning fun, but it's not a faire.
People go to a renaissance festival to dress up in a fun costume, eat things like turkey legs, see entertaining shows, buy cool stuff, and, oh yeah, get a SMALL taste of what life might have been like back in the day. But they're not going there to learn, they're going to a Theme Park to play all day. If you start placing restrictions on what the people paying to go to a theme park can wear, they WILL stop coming. If you want to make a living history museum set in the renaissance, go for it, but don't try to sell it as a faire. They're very different.
Now, if you want to have a strict code for the employees, to set the atmosphere of your theme park better, by all means, go for it. I personally like what MIRF does. They have a historical court, and they have faeries, both on cast. But the historical characters can't see the faeries! It makes it fun, especially when the faeries occasionaly try to interact w/the historical characters.
Quote from: Elennare on June 30, 2008, 12:07:19 PM
To the people who say things like Plimoth Plantation and Fort Mackinack show that a STRICTLY H/A faire can work...they are 2 very different things! .... Do you EVER see someone who doesn't work at one of those places come in costume? Not so much. People go there to learn, not play. Yes, they make learning fun, but it's not a faire.
Actually, yeah - I do know folks who dress up to go to Plimouth and C.Williamsburg in historic dress. Why wouldn't they? There is a huge interest in 17th and 18th c. costuming within the historical costume community, and just like faire folk, historic costumers are always looking for someplace to wear their garb. ;)
Quote from: Elennare on June 30, 2008, 12:07:19 PM
If you start placing restrictions on what the people paying to go to a theme park can wear, they WILL stop coming.
I *will* agree with this, though. Any faire or living history museum shouldn't place restrictions (beyond the grounds of common decency, of course!) what a visitor/patron can wear.
Quote from: Welsh Wench on June 29, 2008, 08:38:24 PM
AtAnd...I love my faire pirates! ;)
Ain't it the truth! Faire pirates - yummy!
Admittedly, I only go to Opening Weekend and maybe one other throughout the course of MiRF, but aside from the 'Xena' lady, I've never seen anything too 'out of whack' as far as garb goes. No Stormtroopers (kilted or otherwise), no Vampires or Chewbacca, Ewoks, Dr. Who...nuthin! Geez, I miss ALL the fun!
Maybe this year I'll go as a Kilted-Furry-Vampire-Nun....Ooooo maybe skip the nun part. Mother Superior would kill me!
Dr. Who is a Time Lord. Why wouldn't he fit in anywhere? :D
I suppose I should surrender my Sonic Screwdriver at the front gate. Loony Lucy will be so disappointed.
Quote from: Mad Jack Wolfe on June 30, 2008, 01:44:35 PM
Dr. Who is a Time Lord. Why wouldn't he fit in anywhere? :D
I suppose I should surrender my Sonic Screwdriver at the front gate. Loony Lucy will be so disappointed.
I think if I saw David Tennant at a renaissance faire, I would simply DIE of fangirly glee, right there, in the lanes. :)
Doctor Who cosplayers are welcome at any faire I'm at, IMHO. ;) Who rulez!
Quote from: Mad Jack Wolfe on June 30, 2008, 01:44:35 PM
Dr. Who is a Time Lord. Why wouldn't he fit in anywhere? :D
I suppose I should surrender my Sonic Screwdriver at the front gate. Loony Lucy will be so disappointed.
LOL!
I'm willing to bet that there's a number of Stormtroopers who do it just to get a rise out of people!
The best way to deal with that IMO, is to welcome them into the fold, so to speak,you just may get a covert...or convict,what's the word? :D
For the fangirly Who groupies...
(http://www.pottermania.jp/Photos/CastsCrews/DT/DavidTennant3.jpg)(http://thegrumpyowl.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/doctor_who___david_tennant_by_jennicat5.jpg)
Quote from: Mad Jack Wolfe on June 30, 2008, 02:02:28 PM
For the fangirly Who groupies...
I certainly wouldn't turn HIM out of bed for eatin' crackers. ;)
(Although admittedly... I'm a little more of a Cap'n Jack Harkness girl. *grin*)
he is a handsome lad!
Might I point out that most museums are sponsored by someone else, be it it state, city or whatever, and they do not necessarily have to turn a profit. When you are playing with someone else's money, and not the same limitations that most faires have, it makes it much easier to be more historically accurate. Of course, I still say it is not possible to be entirely historically accurate. Most Renaissance Faires, on the other hand, have to be somewhat self-sufficient. They have to cater to the patrons, who support them, and because of this, they need to keep their patrons happy. I don't think it is necessary for everyone to dress the same way that I do, or think the same way I do. If they all did, what would be the point of attending? Wouldn't it be boring, if everyone looked and acted the same?
Quote from: silverstah on June 30, 2008, 12:40:09 PM
Actually, yeah - I do know folks who dress up to go to Plimouth and C.Williamsburg in historic dress. Why wouldn't they? There is a huge interest in 17th and 18th c. costuming within the historical costume community, and just like faire folk, historic costumers are always looking for someplace to wear their garb. ;)
Really?!? Wow. I've never seen or heard of anyone doing that. And I worked at a one of those type places for a summer too. Guess you learn something every day. More power too them, if they want to.
But I still stand by my statement that those kind of places are fundamentally different from a renn faire.
Quote from: Elennare on June 30, 2008, 12:07:19 PM
Now, if you want to have a strict code for the employees, to set the atmosphere of your theme park better, by all means, go for it. I personally like what MIRF does. They have a historical court, and they have faeries, both on cast. But the historical characters can't see the faeries! It makes it fun, especially when the faeries occasionaly try to interact w/the historical characters.
We can see them if they give us a sign, tap on the shoulder usually. The Spanish Ambasador is such a strict stinker that he will never be able to see them.
Our red fairy, Firemoon, likes to walk behind me, mimicking my every move: fan waving, parasol holding, waving, nose in the air, you name it. Kids just love it! At Amana this year (Sunday), she'd grab my hat while I was working the lanes, trying to get people to go to our crossbow booth. I would literally be running in circles after my hat that the "wind" took, usually exclaiming to the kids "it's almost as if a FAIRY took it!" She'd finally pop it on a little kid's head, and I'd give them a free bolt to shoot in thanks for "rescuing my hat". We'd have people in a big circle watching and smiling. Lots of fun! (Although I was really feeling the burn on my legs after doing that about 8 times...)
My personal opinion: everyone is welcome, no matter what they wear, as long as it is legal. ;D
Sorry, I just can't buy in to the "I'm okay, you're okay, wear whatever you want as long as you don't physically injure anyone" liberal mentality. Yes the sci-fi people will be let into the faire but I don't have to like it. It won't ruin my day either but if some trekkie tries to scan me with a tricorder, I might just knock it out of his hand and stomp on it because that's what my character would do and I am just playing along.
Quote from: Black Armor on June 30, 2008, 09:23:29 PM
Sorry, I just can't buy in to the "I'm okay, you're okay, wear whatever you want as long as you don't physically injure anyone" liberal mentality. Yes the sci-fi people will be let into the faire but I don't have to like it. It won't ruin my day either but if some trekkie tries to scan me with a tricorder, I might just knock it out of his hand and stomp on it because that's what my character would do and I am just playing along.
....and then you're likely to either get thrown out of the faire or charged with assault and battery. Or both.
If it won't ruin your day, why would you purposefully do something rotten like that to ruin THEIR day?
That's "Assault" brother...
...not the best way to end your day at the fest, departing in the back of a police cruiser.
Might it not be a better idea to ignore them, if you detest them attending the same RenFest as you do?
May I ask you, Black Armor, what exact period is your garb/armor? There was no such period as the Conan the Barbarian period. Why is your fantasy armor garb better than someone who wants to come in as something like a Klingon? While I'll give you the fact that armor is closer to period than a tri-corder or however you spell it, you boarder on hypocritical if you want to include those who dress in fantasy (which not only includes faeries, but those in fantasy armor, barbarian garb, etc...) but not include those others. Not period is not period... whether you are in fantasy armor, Klingon, a vampire, or even a friar at an Elizabethan faire. Part of being a rennie, in most circles, is being accepting of the other weirdoes that are out there like us.
Quote from: Dirtfarmer on June 30, 2008, 09:55:01 PM
Part of being a rennie, in most circles, is being accepting of the other weirdoes that are out there like us.
Couldn't have said it better meself!
I just want to point out that were renaissance paintings of all kinds of fantasy beings.
I'm all up for having fun. they only thing I dislike is the rude and prude.
As a matter of fact I'm ditching the pirate for a satyr.
A H/A faire I'm sorry but watching a large show without speakers doesn't sound fun.
And turkey's were only for the extremely wealthy I believe. I'd cry if there wasn't a turkey leg booth. Also If you were not among the wealthy. A chicken leg wouldn't cut it.
http://www.fineartscreensavers.com/ren/full/Lady_with_a_Unicorn_(Raphael).jpg
It could be a doll it could be real. Does it really matter? and it is known that goats with a operation can grow unicorns or unihorns.
Take it easy people, I was making a point and having a little fun. Doesn't take much to get you guys fired up does it? Anyway, you're saying it's fine for people to wear sci-fi costumes and justify it by creating back- stories for them (they're time travelers or a Star Trek away team or whatever). With that in mind, you consider it acceptable for them to approach paid renaissance characters (such as the Queen) and costumed patrons and force them to interact with their sci-fi character. Fine, they just need to keep in mind that there are some people like me who might not appreciate it or think that it's funny and I would hope that they would at least respect that. You can't expect everyone to just accept it especially when they are confronted with it. Now I am in no way saying that I am going to chase down the first sci-fi costumed person I see and beat them up. I would do as I have always done in the past and walk by without saying a word. Even if some trekkie were to try and scan me with his tricorder (and no Dirt Farmer, I don't know how to spell it and spell check doesn't know either) I wouldn't do anything to him. However, I would tell him in a very stern voice to get away from me and wouldn't play along. Now, if he continued to harass me after I told him to leave me alone, I might actually do something but I'm sure that nobody would be that rude. The bottom line is that I realize that the sci-fi people are going to be there. Like I said, I don't really like it but I will respect their right to be there as long as they respect my right to be left alone by them. I believe the original question was, "Should faires be fantasy, historically accurate or a mix?" As I've already said, I support the "mix" of HA and fantasy but I think it just makes sense that the fantasy aspect at a medieval renaissance faire would be in keeping with a "medieval fantasy" realm and not a "sci-fi fantasy".
As far as my costume Dirt Farmer, I made no attempt at any "period". My costume is "medieval fantasy" like I stated in a previous post. I made everything I am wearing in my picture except for the helm and chain. I wouldn't be opposed at all to wearing a period correct costume if I could find one I liked but I wouldn't be caught dead in a velvet vest and poofy shorts. I never claimed that my costume was better than anyone's sci-fi costume, just that I thought mine fit in better at a medieval renaissance faire. Someone might walk in with a Klingon costume that is right out of the the Star Trek shows or movies but I don't think it fits in. If it was that great I would probably get a picture of it myself because I am also a sci-fi fan but I just don't think they mix. You're right that, "not period is not period", but I'm talking about medieval/medieval fantasy and storm troopers and the like are not even in that neighborhood. I understand your point and I'm sure you understand mine.
Black Armor,
Are you always so aloof at the faires? Do you not attend faires to meet other "like-minded" individuals, and enjoy the day's interaction/attractions or just to show off the work on your hand-made Armor?
I've seen you several times at festivals, you never seem to be enjoying yourself, (it could be because of the heat) you seem stand-off-ish to me (but that is just my interpretation of your mood) so I would not be surprised at your rude behavior towards someone dressed differently from you.
What does surprise me is your admission of such rude behavior towards other people, who have paid their entry fee, and have real expectations to interact with Costumed actors paid to entertain the patrons, yet they end up approaching someone like me and you instead.
I cannot count the times I have been approached by patrons (mundanes) asking the time for a show, or where the "Privies" are, or some other question, believing that I worked for the Fest. It seems that one would assist the person in a polite fashion, and let it go, the benefits are not yours, but they encourage the patrons to attend the festival again, and it makes the "Local" RenFest look good even though you do not work for the Fest...
...should someone approach you, dressed as someone other than a "renaissance" character, and ask you for directions or whatever, your response would be for them to leave you alone, even if they were attempting some harmless social interaction with you?
The people that attend these faires, not in a period costume, but in a different costume, expect the actors to interact with them, they do not know the difference between one who works there, and someone like me, who just dresses in a costume and attends the fest for the sheer enjoyment.
Your rude demeanor towards Capt Kirk, and his Klingon mistress, discredits the faire you attend and other like us who dress and enjoy.
I understand your intolerance towards a "differently dressed" individual, and if you wish to be left alone by these individuals, that is your right, however consider the image you leave behind to the person you have just been rude to and realize that you are not helping your "local" RenFest, but you are hurting its image for future patrons.
I am aware that this posting will not change your mind about patrons dressed as a Klingon, or Battlestar Galactica, or Anime Character, I just want you to think about the image you leave behind in the minds of these people, after you behave in a rude manner.
Angus, I have NEVER been rude to anyone! You are right though and I have been asked for directions by people in the past and have always tried to help the best I could. I have never meant to be "stand offish" and have always enjoyed people who have approached me. I have even held someone's baby for a picture. I love the fest and love that people want to have their picture taken with me. I will continue as I always have but hopefully will project a more friendly and approachable impression. I really do love for people to approach me and it is an honor for someone to ask me directions or to have their picture with me. Wait, you've seen me? But I see you are from KY. If you come to the Mi ren fest you better introduce yourself so that I can buy you a pint! But maybe you've confused me with someone else.
Sometimes in life, you just have to look the other way, and odd costumes instead of garb is one of them. I don't think MIRF allows leashed personages, at least not anymore.
Anyway, if I get pissy about someone in "odd garb" I would be a big ole hypocrite, since you should see the fairy covered horror I wore to Bristol the first year. Someone actually came up to me, from cast mind you, and told me to dress properly, this was not Halloween. I learned a lesson. I treat everyone the same, I don't care if their wearing Saran Wrap and a banana leaf. It's not worth my day to fuss and be bothered and I'm cast, so if Darth Vader wants to play, I play. If Darth is drunk I make my out and move on.
I did innocently ask my director what the day of wrong was and he said, "it does not exist for you." LOL!
"However, I would tell him in a very stern voice to get away from me and wouldn't play along. Now, if he continued to harass me after I told him to leave me alone, I might actually do something but..."
For a "mundane" attempting an interaction with you, this would be rude...
I am aware that most of what is said here is "rum fueled" bluster, but I don't truly believe all of the bluster being touted here.
I really mean to state that any rude behavior from any costumed patron has quite a negative impact not only on the person, but the entire RenFest that you are visiting.
Generally said, there will always be Capt. Kirk strolling with his Klingon mistress, or Stormtroopers galavanting around, some Renfest somewhere, at sometime, (personally, I really disliked the Civil War Vet, cause he was drunk as Cooter Brown, and being belligerent...) but they are here to stay...
...regardless of any comments from any one of us.
I apologise for calling your comments rude.
To toss a thought out there... just where, exactly, would we draw the line between period vs. fantasy, (or maybe just Eager Joe wanting to play along but not quiiite getting the difference between garb and Halloween costumes), and just plain ol' ugly "garb Nazism"?
Perhaps gentle tolerance toward off-period dress, Sci-Fi/fantasy/B&D/Goth/Wal-Mart halloween clearance/whateverthehell, and just letting folks come in, have a good time, and see for themselves the native renfolk in full plumage might inspire them to want to be a part of what's going on, and choose something closer to the theme of the event in the future? How many people have you seen (including yourself, perhaps) who've come in the gate the first time in 'danes, or in some attempt at garb, who then see all the costumes around them... and BING! the lightbulb comes on? Ta-daa, a rennie is born!
Quote from: Tipsy Gypsy on July 01, 2008, 09:14:10 AM
How many people have you seen (including yourself, perhaps) who've come in the gate the first time in 'danes, or in some attempt at garb, who then see all the costumes around them... and BING! the lightbulb comes on? Ta-daa, a rennie is born!
That's pretty much how my girlfriend and I "got the bug". We started going regularly and got tired of "sticking out" in our 'danes. She pretty much got it right the first time and has only added a trinket or bauble here and there to her original garb. I, on the other hand, have changed every-damn-thing except my kilt. At first I didn't know, now I'm leaning towards pirate...by next year...who knows!!??
Now, I'm willing to believe a small percentage of those who come in "non-faire" garb are doing so for the sheer joy of being annoying (we ARE human beings, after all) but I'd be willing to bet the rest come that way because it's what they're comfortable in and it's their attempt at participating.
I've yet to see anyone in really out of place garb at MiRF (I'm sure they exist, but I only go maybe 2 weekends a season), but I'd like to think it wouldn't bother me overly much, if at all.
Quote from: Angus on July 01, 2008, 05:49:01 AM
I apologise for calling your comments rude.
I apologise for my rum fueled bluster.
My original question was "Should it be Fantasy or Historically Accurate or a Mix"
It looks like the answer from everyone is it should be some sort of mix. I agree with that.
But then the question is: What exactly is "Fantasy" and what is meant by "should"?
I think most people agree that it "should" be vaguely medieval or renaissance fantasy and not scifi, however that we should have tolerance for people who dress as scifi fantasy.
I tend to have zero tolerance for scifi fantasy and if I am feeling self-righteous I might be heard saying I would not even acknowledge their existence if they walked up to me. However I suppose we need to have tolerance for scifi characters because who knows maybe they will feel out of place and rather dress in more appropriate garb and not stick out like a sore thumb and look silly.
That being said it is a fact that any significant number of scifi characters WILL harm a faire by degrading its atmosphere. While a few star trek or stormtroopers may be "quaint", a whole legion of them becomes an eyesore and is annoying.
So I suppose the answer to my question is that a fantasy mix is best and even some scifi fantasy should be "tolerated" however if the scifi fantasy gets too much perhaps some encouragement (by patrons or management) is needed to preserve the atmosphere of the faire. Also the fact that it is a "renaissance" faire usually prevents or persuades any larger invasions or landing parties of scifi fantasy from entering the faire...so hopefully "encouragement" is not needed to preserve the integrity and atmosphere of a faire.
Regards,
CB
Black Armor : I FORGIVE YOU, now go have fun and enjoy the fair, It is a most wounderful place for family and friends to meet and play, and be together . No matter what we wear we are still friends at the end of the day, and have had a great time at the fair ;D
Quote from: Angus on July 01, 2008, 05:49:01 AM
"However, I would tell him in a very stern voice to get away from me and wouldn't play along. Now, if he continued to harass me after I told him to leave me alone, I might actually do something but..."
For a "mundane" attempting an interaction with you, this would be rude...
Angus:
I am coming into this discussion a bit late, it seems about 10 pages late, however I think you mistook Black Armors meaning(of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong), but I do not think he was referring to mundanes, I think he was refering to the sci-fi trekies, as far as interaction. Truth to tell I have never seen a trekie, klingon, B.G. type at any faire I have ever been to. However if I did, about the only interaction that they should be afforded as far as what the public sees would be to scream in terror for that is what a person from the 14th thru the 17th century would do when acosted by some someone so obviously foreign. Even if the queen were to be approached by someone so dressed QE I would scream for her guards and the trekies etc. should re-act accordingly. As far as the Historically accurate vs fantasy question. Look at the mindset of the times, they believed in witches, demons, fairies, elves, trolls and the like so having these characters on site is not only acceptable fantasy, but historically accurate based on the beliefs of the times. To have a renn faire without these elements to me is NOT historically accurate Granted I have seen faires that do not adhere to the historical aspect of their time frame. for example the St Louis faire states in their website that the year is 1530 and yet King Henry II sits upon the throne fully 16 years before he historically would get there. To me that is more grievious than having a few elves, fairies and trolls hanging around. I feel there has to be a mix of both IMHO. However where H/A is referenced it should be correct. If you are doing any Henry up to and including the 8th then anything Shakespere should not be allowed. And musketeers before the advent of said order in France in the 17th century should be looked at with a stern eye, if you are going to be H/A. At all of the faires that I have performed as King, only once have I ever done a true historical figure and I should have said no to it, but the contract was signed and it was to late. I much prefer to do my own character because I can get away with a lot more and do not have to be a character nazi on myself. Just my humble 2 or 3 ducats worth.
Quote from: BLAKDUKE on July 01, 2008, 11:32:25 AM
Quote from: Angus on July 01, 2008, 05:49:01 AM
"However, I would tell him in a very stern voice to get away from me and wouldn't play along. Now, if he continued to harass me after I told him to leave me alone, I might actually do something but..."
For a "mundane" attempting an interaction with you, this would be rude...
Angus:
I am coming into this discussion a bit late, it seems about 10 pages late, however I think you mistook Black Armors meaning(of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong), but I do not think he was referring to mundanes, I think he was refering to the sci-fi trekies, as far as interaction.
That is correct. I meant the trekkies.
I assume you mean Henry II of France (1519 - 1559) who assumed the throne in 1547. Otherwise if you are speaking of Henry II of Englane, it's a bit more than 16 years off, it's more like 397. Henry II was born in 1133, came to the throne in 1154 and died in 1189.
Dayna
As one who has been to Faire as a "trekkie" I have never foisted myself on anyone. It would be anathema for for me to interject my own good time over someone elses. Ded Bob called us to stand up, saying, "GEEKS!" and got on with his show. In fact, I have seen more grief and misery from Scots and Pirates than anyone in sci-fi costumes.
If I have to look at 'Danes in their daily-wear, and Playtrons in their varied guises, and the attention-grabbing flakes showing a little too much or wearing too bright or thats-just-wrong or just-plain-uuglee, if someone can wear a "F*CK YOU!" t-shirt, how can a sci-fi costume possibly be "insulting" to me and ruin my good time?
If someone comes to my Faire wearing a crown or dresses oh-so-obviously like Queen Elizabeth or even as King Henry VIII, should I ignore them? Deny them? Order them put to death on-the-spot?!? Well, I don't, and I don't let it bother me.
We had two young Doctor Who's come to Scarborough Faire, regularly, several years ago. Both wanted to meet the King and Queen. You just call them both Doctor and get on with your day.
As to Historic or 'sense of the period' of garb, the Playtron costumes cover the entire spectrum from the Dead-on as-accurate-as-modern-process-allows to the snicker-behind-your-hand to the painful-to-view.
Why, oh, why would one make a period costume that they obviously took hours, days, weeks, months, years in planning and creating, only to use the worst possible materials and/or color choices?!?
It makes me cringe when a lady wears the finest of Court gowns, but made in cheap light-weight Polly-Esther or in day-glow and neon colors! Even my lack-of-taste is affronted!
I can only snicker at those who wear the leather armor, spiked and horned, embossed and adorned and engraved with all manner of symbols and sigils Celtic, pseudo-Celtic, neo-Celtic, crypto-Celtic, et al, only to be wearing tennis-shoes. It is a work-in-progress, nothing to raise my ire.
...
And what in the name of St. Thomas Aquinas is up with those girls wearing the giant boots, shorty short skirts, long curly neon ribbons in pony-tails and their painted noses ... IN THE PARADE?!? Now, take not myne meaning wrong, for I am much enamored of gazing at the long legs of young women, and 'tis myne own fondness for the peek-o-the-cheek they display, but the parade represents the Faire and they do not, in any way, represent my Faire.
This past weekend Toki and I found ourselves at CoRF. It was an overcast day and at 99am it was 59 degree's out. (For once the day was not a socrcher) As he and I dressed (Him helping me more than I help him as my dress requires massive amounts of help) We say a Storm trooper. We had a laugh about it to ourselves and funny thing. We never once saw that Stormtrooper all day. Now CoRF isn't a HUGE faire, but it's not a small faire either. Opening weekend we say Obi-wan and Leia. I only saw them maybe twice all day.
Do the Sci-Fi and Goth's belong? good question. I personally take a look at their costume, make a comment to myself if it is good or bad and go about my away. I will say they stand out even more so than those of us dressed in more period garb and maybe that is what they are looking for.
As I asked once, don't you think that maybe the people dressed up as Star Wars or Star Trek or who ever Sci-Fi are just looking for attention?
Personally I get plenty of attention with how I am dressed and I try to have fun with it. But maye they are looking for more than that.
If star wars characters are looking for attention it is evidence of their lack of respect for the faire in my opinion. The main reason they would expect to get attention by dressing as star wars is because they went to a renaissance festival where they would expect to stick out like a sore thumb.
Sure perhaps one could argue they expected to get attention because they were the very best stormtrooper possible however the main and most obvious reason is because they went to a renaissance festival where they expected not to fit in. The simplest explanation is usually the correct one.
They decide to not fit in by dressing in a manner inappropriate for the obvious intent of the event (it IS called a renaissance festival)...and however you spin that, it is just plain rude.
Therefor if they are satisfying their needs by being rude to others...they just don't belong at the event.
Certainly mundanes (and I hate calling them that because it has a negative connotation) who dress poorly by wearing short shorts when they weigh 700 lbs or wearing shirts which have curse words on them...are also being rude to their fellow patrons/playtrons. But at least they didn't make a conscious choice to wear a costume which wasn't appropriate.
I think a costumed person (stormtrooper) is much more visible in a crowd than any particular person dressed in normal clothes. Rennies are also much more visible in a crowd of mundanes.
I suppose if I could choose to attend a faire with ZERO mundanes and only costumed staff and garbed playtrons I would love the opportunity but that isn't likely.
Regards,
CB
Quote from: Cobaltblu on July 01, 2008, 05:26:28 PM
They decide to not fit in by dressing in a manner inappropriate for the obvious intent of the event (it IS called a renaissance festival)...and however you spin that, it is just plain rude.
Therefor if they are satisfying their needs by being rude to others...they just don't belong at the event.
Well... that's assuming that they
realize it's inappropriate, too. What's blatantly obvious to us may not be to someone to whom faire isn't exactly their second home. At least they get the idea that it's a chance to wear something fun and be someone different, if only for a day, and perhaps it's an opportunity to encourage them to "come toward the light" :).
For the sake of comparison, let's reverse the situation for a moment- renfolk at a normally "mundane" event? Milord and I live several lives simultaneously, one of them being representatives of his Scottish clan at cultural events. Appropriate attire at such is one's cultural dress (not a costume!), or 'danes. This includes tartan sashes, clan badges/pins, etc. on mundane clothing. On occasion, we get visitors from rennies in various kinds of garb from historical to hysterical, a few goths/emos, and the occasional "Bubba wit' a bat'leh" just for a little colorful WTF. Appropriate? No, but amid the restrained groans, I think most folks understand that they don't realize it's not really appropriate, any more than the redneck cousin that wears a tube top to a wedding realizes. But in either case, at least they thought enough to show up. And if they're treated graciously, sometimes they ask interested questions, try to learn, get excited about being a part of things rather than just a bystander, and you wind up with a loyal new kinsman in a snazzy- real! -kilt, an oft times, a friend.
(And oh yeah, we have self-appointed Tartan Police, believe me. ::) I'm a kilt purist, myself, but I try hard not to be a jerk, and to mitigate the effects of the TP by showing off milord's well-made kilt, sharing how well it adapts from casual wear to formal, and encouraging them to be choosy and make an investment that will give them a lifetime of enjoyment. It's as easy to be an ambassador as just an weed puller.)
I can't read people's minds to determine what they realize or do not realize. I am an intelligent person who tries his best to dress and act in an appropriate manner. Maybe some people aren't very intelligent and don't suspect that if an event is called "renaissance faire" that if they dress in garb perhaps they should dress in a renaissance outfit? Perhaps those same people somehow get the idea of dressing in a costume and see the word "renaissance" and instantly determine their stormtrooper outfit is perfect for the event.
I just cannot fathom how someone would not realize that dressing as a stormtrooper or darth vader or star trek is appropriate garb for the "renaissance festival". I mean they have got to at least think "hey its called a renaissance festival perhaps my scifi costume won't fit in?".
Regards,
CB
Hey, it baffles me too. (shrugs)
Regardless, I think there's a difference between lack of intelligence and lack of information. Some people mean well, they just don't know better. Some people know better and just don't care; but my getting ruffled about it won't change them. And of those who who do it specifically to ruffle someone, why give them the satisfaction?
Quote from: VIII on July 01, 2008, 03:54:55 PM
...And what in the name of St. Thomas Aquinas is up with those girls wearing the giant boots, shorty short skirts, long curly neon ribbons in pony-tails and their painted noses ... IN THE PARADE?!? Now, take not myne meaning wrong, for I am much enamored of gazing at the long legs of young women, and 'tis myne own fondness for the peek-o-the-cheek they display, but the parade represents the Faire and they do not, in any way, represent my Faire.
;D
I do not know why but suddenly I am happy...
Blakduke,
I realized his meaning, but the "Danes", as well as the "Trekkers", are not in a period costume and were lumped into a single reference by me...
...thanks for nitpicking! :)
Truth be told, I do not see a future for any Festival that is exclusively "Historically Accurate", as it would not be fun...
Costumes aside, the Privies are not H/A, nor are the food, the construction of the grounds, buildings, the vendors sell "non-period" weapons, and etc...
so disagreeing about the Non-costumed patrons is moot.
So in light of continuing with the conversation, I concede to your views.
As in your reference to Henry II, I can only parallel.
My "local" RenFest is the KHRF, its' time period is the 1300's with Robert the Bruce on the throne, yet you see almost everyone wearing Kilts to the fest, when Kilts were not worn until ~400 years later...
...yet, everyone has a good time despite the vast differences.
Quote from: Cobaltblu on July 01, 2008, 07:03:05 PMI just cannot fathom how someone would not realize that dressing as a stormtrooper or darth vader or star trek is appropriate garb for the "renaissance festival". I mean they have got to at least think "hey its called a renaissance festival perhaps my scifi costume won't fit in?".
That's why there aren't too many of them.
QuoteI suppose if I could choose to attend a faire with ZERO mundanes and only costumed staff and garbed playtrons I would love the opportunity but that isn't likely.
You mentioned Sterling earlier, so I assume you live near there. Just north of Pittsburgh is an event you'd love.
http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn37/ (http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn37/)
I'll be there for twelve days and nights this year. 12,000 people, all in garb, all the time. It's one of the rules that you make a "credible attempt at medieval garb". Fantasy isn't prohibited, but is EXTREMELY frowned upon by everyone, unless you're a 6' hot redhead wearing leather boots with stilletto heels, a chain mail bikini bottom, a spiked leather corsett, and huge leather bat wings on your back. Nobody seems to mind her. ;D
Go to Google Images, search "Pennsic", and enjoy the multitude of pages it will give you.
QuoteThat being said it is a fact that any significant number of scifi characters WILL harm a faire by degrading its atmosphere. While a few star trek or stormtroopers may be "quaint", a whole legion of them becomes an eyesore and is annoying.
I agree with you there, but I've never seen or heard of it becoming that big of a problem anywhere. Like I said earlier, it's only a few people in small groups at irregular times. If a platoon of stormtroopers were marching through the village every Saturday, I'd have a problem with it, but that just doesn't happen.
Quote from: Tipsy Gypsy on July 01, 2008, 09:14:10 AM
Perhaps gentle tolerance toward off-period dress, Sci-Fi/fantasy/B&D/Goth/Wal-Mart halloween clearance/whateverthehell, and just letting folks come in, have a good time, and see for themselves the native renfolk in full plumage might inspire them to want to be a part of what's going on, and choose something closer to the theme of the event in the future? How many people have you seen (including yourself, perhaps) who've come in the gate the first time in 'danes, or in some attempt at garb, who then see all the costumes around them... and BING! the lightbulb comes on? Ta-daa, a rennie is born!
That's me. :)
Quote from: unilady on July 01, 2008, 03:09:00 PM
I assume you mean Henry II of France (1519 - 1559) who assumed the throne in 1547. Otherwise if you are speaking of Henry II of Englane, it's a bit more than 16 years off, it's more like 397. Henry II was born in 1133, came to the throne in 1154 and died in 1189.
Dayna
Your assumption is correct, I meant HENRY II of France
Perhaps gentle tolerance toward off-period dress, Sci-Fi/fantasy/B&D/Goth/Wal-Mart halloween clearance/whateverthehell, and just letting folks come in, have a good time, and see for themselves the native renfolk in full plumage might inspire them to want to be a part of what's going on, and choose something closer to the theme of the event in the future? How many people have you seen (including yourself, perhaps) who've come in the gate the first time in 'danes, or in some attempt at garb, who then see all the costumes around them... and BING!
the lightbulb comes on? Ta-daa, a rennie is born!
Me too! First year mundanes, next year stretch knit 1200's garb, a few years later, appropriate fabric 1300's garb, moving into Felix Needleworthy, onward to wench to merchant to low-noble to "whoever I decide to be today" but (hopefully) always in clothing that's non-snickerable :D
Dayna
Quote from: VIII on July 01, 2008, 03:54:55 PM
Why, oh, why would one make a period costume that they obviously took hours, days, weeks, months, years in planning and creating, only to use the worst possible materials and/or color choices?!?
Hee! Just remember, the Elizabethans had a very different sense of color than we do in the 21st century. Appalling color combinations like baby-puke green and orange were VERY fashionable in the 16th century. :)
So if someone is wearing something that looks like it's meticulously researched, but it's in a color combination that looks odd to the modern eye... it's probably proper for the time period. ;)
Quote from: Cobaltblu on July 01, 2008, 05:26:28 PM
I suppose if I could choose to attend a faire with ZERO mundanes and only costumed staff and garbed playtrons I would love the opportunity but that isn't likely.
Come join the SCA. We have cookies! :)
While I love the fact that so many put so much of their time and effort into making their garb and character's persona H/A, I also enjoy a little of the fantasy world too. But I prefer Historically Appropriate Fantasy, if I may coin a term, meaning things that may have been believed in as being real in the past, or at least what the books and media have inspired me to understand what may have been real to those back then. Trolls, dragons, elves, nymphs, fairies, satyrs, and other such similar creatures/characters are welcome, at least to me, along with people's spin on them. And I just occurred to me that they are, by definition, H/A because they were thought to have existed by the people back then, and therefore the people of the Shire may have hoped/expected to see them, from time to time.
That being said, I have a problem with what would be, to the people of the Shire, Future Fantasy. Star Trek, Star Wars, Animae and the like do not have a place at a RenFest. (Yes I realize that the opening of Star Wars says "A Long Time Ago....")
Some of the characters' garb from Star Wars could pass, I suppose. A Jedi's robes, without light saber or other such futuristic accessories would be okay, because they are just robes. Many of the aliens from Star Wars could be interpreted as trolls or goblins, which I guess still passes what I alluded to earlier, as long as there aren't laser blasters or electronics or other futuristic inventions. But Storm Troopers and Darth Vader's, with their plastics and blinking lights have no place at a Faire as we describe it.
There are places for those who choose to dress as an Anime character, or as a member of the Enterprise's crew or one of the Dark Emperor's guards to express themselves. There are Sci-Fi Conventions and ComiCons all over the country. If you want to wear that, go there to a place and gathering where you can be that character and not be so out of place that you get attention solely for the fact that you are so out of place.
As well, those attending know that it is a Renaissance Festival, or a Medieval Faire, and therefore the thought process for attending should involve a bit of forethought into what they will wear, if they are going to come in garb of some kind. I they are willing to put enough effort into what they are going to wear that they will don a Storm Trooper's uniform, they can put a little more effort and examine why they want to wear it to a Faire. Do they need attention that badly? Or are they wearing it to be funny?
If that is the case, I wish that they would show the courtesy of thinking that some may think they are being made fun of by that choice of garb, and reconsider wearing it in the first place. I go to Faires as often as I can, on every weekend that I am not working. I travel more than four hours for the nearest permanent one to me. I do not need a Boba Fete or a member of StarFleet Command mocking me during one of my weekends of escape.
I'm not saying that the Staff at the Gate shouldn't let them in; I just wish that people could be more self-evaluating in their behaviors, and how they may affect others.
I'm curious why "goth" is being considered a non-appropriate costume or someone who doesn't belong at faire. Several of my good friends in college were goths, and believe me, it's not a costume. They dress like that every day. It's their normal clothes, not a costume they decided to wear to the faire.
I like a mix at faire. I'm a big people watcher and just get a kick out watching all kinds of people.
Before I joined the cast at Bristol I would show up in either a tee-shirt covered with frogs and a frog shaped hat, or I'd wear my "Spam" tee-shirt. Neither, of course, were remotely period, but it did make for some interesting interaction with street cast.
Although I freely admit to being Captain Jack Sparrow'ed out, I'm generally tolerant of people showing up in odd costumes, even if I may roll my eyes at times. I figure that if they buy a ticket and support the faire, they should be free to dress in a way they find fun.
Been reading, more or less, this topic over the weeks.
Got to wondering .......... who are the stormtroopers or the trekkies associating with?
Let me explain. As a time traveling anthropologist, my odd but drab clothing accomplishes at least two purposes. First of all, if I am dropped out of the time stream during travel anywhere between 1500ish and 2050, the clothing will be seen as odd but it won't get me burned at the stake. Secondly and more importantly, it works quite efficiently with the mental influence capabilities of the time piece. People see me or at least remember me as they would most likely expect to see me.
OKAY, if you managed to get thru that paragraph, the catch is that it is a private fantasy I have that enables me to enjoy the faire while I am taking pictures. I don't drink (am my own designated driver), I don't eat anything but pretzels (grease is bad for the camera), I go alone so I am there alone. Sure, I may recognize playtrons from over the years, but essentially, I am alone there...........taking pictures. I also buy figurines for the curio cabinets or a hat or a picture.
If, perhaps, the stormtroopers or trekkies are only associating with themselves, then perhaps their fantasy is among themselves ............ and at that point, they might not care if they fit in or not.
If that's the case, then perhaps the answer to getting them to fall more into the fold is not to ignore them.
I actually see it as a progression in "experience". (if you will...)
I see the person as having somewhere, at sometime, going to a "Sci-fi" (or similar) convention, and having a good time in whatever Sci-fi costume they wore.
...having heard of another person that has discovered "Renaissance festivals" and wishing to re-live the "Sci-Fi" experience, and having little knowledge about the renaissance, wears their sci-fi costume, and gets looks/noticed, and has a good time.
...after appearing in this costume for a few festivals, he attempts to get more into the spirit of things, and creates a costume with a less sci-fi genre, and mixes elements that are more "Period".
As time progresses, (or they come out of puberty...) their costume becomes more renaissance, than sci-fi, as so forth, and so on...
...I could be wrong.
I just think it's interesting so many people think that these other (sci-fi) costumers are deliberately disrespecting or mocking those at Renaissance festivals, just by wearing a sci-fi costume. I really don't think that's the thought process (I know quite a few people who are costumers. I myself have my own "star wars" garb, though I rarely wear it. Except I appropriated the Jedi cloak for use on chilly days at MDRF :) ). Mostly, I think it's this: many of those Stormtroopers/Darth Vader/Jedi/Klingons/whoever have put a lot of time, money and energy into what they're wearing (just like a lot of Rennies do for their garb). They like to find excuses to wear it. But just like one can't wear most garb easily in a mundane situation, one can't really wear stormtrooper armor in a mundane situation. A Renaissance Faire? Well, it's getting warmer. It's at least a place where dressing out of the "norm" is expected.
And maybe it's just me, but I'd rather see someone making the effort not to be wearing the "norm" than dressed in blue jeans and a t-shirt.
But we've already established I'm a little weird. ;)
Quote from: analise on July 03, 2008, 07:06:50 AM
I just think it's interesting so many people think that these other (sci-fi) costumers are deliberately disrespecting or mocking those at Renaissance festivals, just by wearing a sci-fi costume.
I have heard of Klingons attending a Faire (I can't remember which one) in search of fuel for their ship, under the guise of being time travellers or Aliens watching humans evolve through their Medieval developmental period and the ran out of fuel. At least they thought up a story of some type. However, a Trekkie friend of mine, who knows how much of a Rennie I am, showed me a Trekkie forum three and a half years or so ago not unlike this one, people discussing various aspects of the Trekkie lifestyle. One of the threads spoke of what ComiCons were coming up and who would be going to which ones.
One discussion was pointed out to me, about several Trekkers' planned invasion of a RenFest. It was winter, and I remember the Faire was somewhere in the southwest, but I don't remember which one. It was more than three years ago, after all. At any rate, there were five or six people saying that they were bored and hadn't gone to a convention or gathering or whatever in some time, and were going to go a this RenFest. They were going to go as mundanes, and were looking at this as another way to dress different, to examine another separate reality. Cool so far.
The thread was then hijacked by three or four others who wanted to go to the Faire as well, but in their StarFleet uniforms. They went back and forth about how funny it was going to be walking around with everyone looking at them, and how it was going to ruin the ambiance, that the actors on the stages would point them out, they were going to get all this attention, and that the people who attend the Faire in garb were going to be upset and it might cause a ruckus and that would be entertaining.
I don't know if they did it or not. I know that they are the tiniest little minority. I know that 99.9996% of Trekkers are not represented by these few. But to think that the line of thinking is even out there is annoying.
As for those who just want somewhere to wear their StormTrooper uniform when there is no convention coming:
I am a huge Toronto Maple Leafs fan (not trying to start a sporting team war, hopefully you will see my point in a second). I have jerseys, autographed sticks, stuff like that. I was even Matt Sundin's personal security for a time (remember that terrible Chunky Soup commercial? During the filming of that.). I go to Leaf games when I can, and wear a jersey, and sometimes put on blue face paint and yell and cheer. It's fun. When the hockey season is over, I miss it. I long for the fall and the start of the new season, especially seeing as we can't even make the playoffs anymore. It seems a long way off.
I am also a Toronto Blue Jays fan, though not as much. I have gone to Jays games, and will go in the future, I'm sure.
I would not wear my normal Leafs garb to a Jays game. It's just not appropriate. I wear a Blue Jays t-shirt. I don't cheer for the Leafs during a Jays game. I cheer for the Jays.
It's sort of a veiled parallel to the way I see the blurry lines of what is awesome to be worn at a Faire, what is good, what is okay, and then maybe what just doesn't seem right.
By the way, I don't hate Trekkies or any other Sci-Fi-ers. I grew up on the original 3 Star Wars (A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi). Although I am a little young for the original Star Trek, I regularly watch The Next Generation and Voyager on SPIKE in the afternoon. And I think William Shattner is one of the greatest gift given to entertainment.
Quote from: silverstah on July 02, 2008, 10:40:41 AMJust remember, the Elizabethans had a very different sense of color than we do in the 21st century. Appalling color combinations like baby-puke green and orange were VERY fashionable in the 16th century. :)
So if someone is wearing something that looks like it's meticulously researched, but it's in a color combination that looks odd to the modern eye... it's probably proper for the time period. ;)
Yes, I understand. I wouldn't dare to question anyone's sense of color combination. My wife is one of those metuculous researchers. I refer not to odd combinations, but to Day-glo and Neon, or those super-saturated colors. You know, the ones that are painful to look at in the bright daylight of the Texas sun?
I agree with what analise just said. Again, I prefer the H/A fantasy like fairies, trolls, ogres, dwarves, etc. that people of the period believed in. However, I was really disappointed this year at Scarby when I found out that I missed seeing the Dark Lord by about a half hour at the knighting ceremony. (I did see pictures and video after the fact.)
One of the things I enjoy most about faire is the wide variety of costumes that people come dressed in. In the 13 days I was at Scarby this year, I can count on one hand the number of Future Fantasy costumes that I saw, and I felt that they only added to the atmosphere. People seemed to have a lot of fun with it, and that is what faire is all about. (At least that was my perception, and I definitely enjoyed seeing the "Time Travelers".)
Personally, I would most likely never wear my ST:TNG Captain's uniform (or anything else like that) to faire. It's the only Sci-Fi costume I own, but if I had a Storm Trooper or Klingon costume in addition, I may have to wear at least one of them, because I don't go to but maybe one Sci-Fi convention every 4 years or so. I do have a "Tom Baker Doctor Who" scarf that my mom made me, and believe me, if it's cold enough, I will wear that with a trench-coat and just be a Time Lord for a day! Note that I would not be wearing any of this to "ruin the ambiance" of faire. It would most likely depend on the timing and the weather of the day in question.
So, given that I don't own any cold weather garb, I have the following choices on a really cold, perhaps rainy day the faire is open:
a) stay home and not go to faire
b) wear my hot or mild weather garb to faire and freeze to death
c) wear several layers of mundane clothing just to stay warm
d) go to faire dressed like a Time Lord, staying warm, dry and healthy
Well (a) & (b) are not really options, so I would most likely pick (d), because it IS a costume, and it's much more fun to dress up than to not. Also, the days that are like this are not well-attended, so if you show up wearing any kind of costume that's warm, the cast/performers are more likely to interact with you, IMHO and small amount of experience.
DH & I were discussing this today, particularly the H/A nature of a Ren Faire. When I go to Faire, I don't expect it to be 100% or even 75% accurate. I enjoy my ice, flushing indoor privies, Gatorade & sunscreen thank you very much! And I find those little odd 'bits' enjoyable & fun. To be walking along & all of a sudden, a Jedi or a Roman Gladiator or even a StormTrooper to me is a bit of unexpected excitement that gives me a 'something to remember' for that day.
To put it another way, I expect my Ren Faires to be totally H/Q about as much as I would expect http://www.okcorral.fr/index.php?p=accueil&lg=GB (http://www.okcorral.fr/index.php?p=accueil&lg=GB) this place to be an accurate representation of the Wild, Wild West.
We all want the fantasy because, lets be honest, the reality wasn't that wonderful at times. I think Dr Kaboom put it best on Mothers Day: "You brought your mother to a Ren Faire...set in the 1500s....when women were property.....Good Move!"
Quote from: robert of armstrong on July 03, 2008, 12:03:33 PM
...One discussion was pointed out to me, about several Trekkers' planned invasion of a RenFest. It was winter, and I remember the Faire was somewhere in the southwest, but I don't remember which one. It was more than three years ago, after all. At any rate, there were five or six people saying that they were bored and hadn't gone to a convention or gathering or whatever in some time, and were going to go a this RenFest. They were going to go as mundanes, and were looking at this as another way to dress different, to examine another separate reality. Cool so far.
The thread was then hijacked by three or four others who wanted to go to the Faire as well, but in their StarFleet uniforms. They went back and forth about how funny it was going to be walking around with everyone looking at them, and how it was going to ruin the ambiance, that the actors on the stages would point them out, they were going to get all this attention, and that the people who attend the Faire in garb were going to be upset and it might cause a ruckus and that would be entertaining.
As for those who just want somewhere to wear their StormTrooper uniform when there is no convention coming:
I am a huge Toronto Maple Leafs fan (not trying to start a sporting team war, hopefully you will see my point in a second). I have jerseys, autographed sticks, stuff like that. I was even Matt Sundin's personal security for a time (remember that terrible Chunky Soup commercial? During the filming of that.). I go to Leaf games when I can, and wear a jersey, and sometimes put on blue face paint and yell and cheer. It's fun. When the hockey season is over, I miss it. I long for the fall and the start of the new season, especially seeing as we can't even make the playoffs anymore. It seems a long way off...I would not wear my normal Leafs garb to a Jays game. It's just not appropriate. I wear a Blue Jays t-shirt. I don't cheer for the Leafs during a Jays game. I cheer for the Jays....
Very well put...Apparently others do consider the impact their 'non-event appropriate garb' will have on those trying to enjoy 'their thing'. Some try to blend while others want to disrupt. Wether they know it or not, Storm-Troopers, Star Fleet, Darth Vaders, and the like are a disruption to the typical Fair. I'll tolerate it, but never respect it.
My answer is short and simple....it's a Faire! It is a place for people to have fun!
If I were to have a party at my home an invited everyone with a clear invitation that the party had a theme and it was to be England 1565, well I would hope that everyone would get into the spirit of the thing and make an attempt to bring something of the period to the party . I beleive that was the intent of most Renaissance faires at some point in time.
Now if you were to arrive as say...Krusty the Clown, I would still be happy to see you and would treat you as any guest deserves. I would get the humor and if the intent was truely lighthearted and not meant to be disruptive I'm sure I would enjoy your efforts, but in my heart I would regret that you did not put that same energy into adding to the tapestry the rest of us were trying to weave.
Yes, faire is a party and yes it's all meant for us to come together and have fun. I personally have not had the experience of attending a faire which is truely period. I've learned from my own home faire to enjoy a nice mix of kilts and pirates and such, but I would love the chance to visit a faire that is truely of one period. I think that would be magical.
We don't have a lot of people here showing up in sci-fi stuff.
As for being accurate in garb or not, let's face it, those of us who do the pirate events wear the same clothing as a Renaissance event, without care that we aren't 'period'. Garb costs money, and when you are on a budget, you have to make do with what you can.
I have seen more and more gals doing away with the typical Ren-faire bodice and opting for stays which are period for the Golden Age of Piracy.
However when you do a Ren-faire with a pirate area (Escondido does this) and people wearing garb of the GOP era, while the Queen and her court walk around, is sort of strange.
I understand this year in Ojai for the big Ojai Pirate Faire, that the Queen and Court are changing costumes and turning into a Pirate Court. Now this ought to be interesting.....
Way to Go Anna! My thoughts exactly. I also tend to agree with Robert of Armstrong. Quite.
"Chris the Robot" as seen at The Sterling Renaissance Festival in 2007 (Not on Cast Obviously...Thank God).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCIlPWc4F3s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCIlPWc4F3s)
Regards,
CB
Since I'm feeling mischievous, I'm going to throw a twist out:
For those who disagree with folks who wear sci fi or other types of clothing / costuming to a Ren Faire, I'm curious what you feel about wearing faire clothing to places like restaurants or stores? Is that the same kind of attention-seeking behaviour? Or do you feel that it's different for some reason? Is it acceptable for renfolke to "freak the danes" and then turn around and say "but don't wear wierd clothes into OUR sandbox!" Or should the standards go both ways?
Now, I realize that we all get caught having to stop and grab a bag of ice for the cooler, or needing to fill up the gas tank on the way to faire. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm referring more to the practice of going to restaurants after faire and the like.
This is probably also a hot potato, but the thread conversations so far just made this question keep popping up in my head. :)
I of course see no issue with going into a store dressed in garb if someone has to buy water or pay for gas or etc.
I think it is ok to go to eat at a restaurant like TGI Fridays or Outback Steak House in garb after or before faire (don't bring swords and weapons of course). It is not ok to go to a fine eating establishment where everyone wears nice clothes and even suits and ties.
The issues are:
What is the obvious intent of the event you are going to?
Will what you wear go against that obvious intent?
In the case of a convenient store the obvious intent regarding clothing is that patrons simply wear clothes (I.E. the typical sign saying "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service"). If you walk down the street in your neighborhood the obvious intent regarding clothing is that you are merely decent (I.E. laws for indecency with definitions of what it entails).
In the case of a renaissance festival the obvious intent is that if you wear garb that it be appropriate for the renaissance/medieval time frame.
Regarding a person's intent...if someone wears historically accurate period garb for the renaissance and attends a faire to "freak" the mundane people who also attended...that is also unacceptable. Not because of the garb but because of why the person wore the garb. Let's face it...a regular patron who sees a person in very nice and accurate garb being a moron or pestering them may likely assume you work at the faire.
Regards,
CB
The nature of a Renaissance Faire is somewhat transcendental, methinks, and as such it would not be unseemly to come as a fairie, wizard, or someone (or something even) mentioned in the folk-lore of the period.
As for the issue of pirates: it would not be out of line, as if I recall Sir Francis Drake disrupted his fair share of Spanish trade in the 1500s.
However, this must be weighed against the issue of ambience, which would preclude something like stormtrooper outfits. There ought to be standards in place so that the Faire does not become just another costume party, but for them to be ordained from a hierarchy would destroy the creative and somewhat free-wheeling (and thus transcendental) nature of the event. If any guidelines are in place, it ought to be from a consensus, not unlike the Norse Thing (þing i.e. assembly) of old.
Quote from: lys1022 on July 06, 2008, 11:14:07 AM
...For those who disagree with folks who wear sci fi or other types of clothing / costuming to a Ren Faire, I'm curious what you feel about wearing faire clothing to places like restaurants or stores? Is that the same kind of attention-seeking behaviour? Or do you feel that it's different for some reason? Is it acceptable for renfolke to "freak the danes" and then turn around and say "but don't wear wierd clothes into OUR sandbox!" Or should the standards go both ways?...
Depends on the restaurant...most "pubs" actually like to see their patrons appear in garb and/or kilts, for the very reason it adds to the ambiance of an English/Irish themed establishment. Going to Perkins to 'freak the danes' would be disrespectful to gramma who's out with her friends to grab a bite! So I say yes, it is o.k. to go to a 'pub' in garb after fest but if going to McD's I'll use the drive-through.
One exception, if said establishment is across the road from the Fair it's pretty much understood where you came from and what you are doing.
I walked into the Red Lobster in Sioux Falls after a long hot day at faire. Yes, I was dressed as a pirate. No surprise. But to find the doors flung open and the entire wait staff there to greet me because I was in pirate kit? THAT was priceless. ;D
When I went as Mun with my family to fair, we stopped at a local diner for breakfast. It was fun to see people dressed (or, in some cases, half-dressed) in garb. They didn't even get that many looks. So, at a place like that, a mile or so from Faire, I would say it's appropriate.
I think that each Faire must have a historical starting point and core events for the time period it portrays. That is the framework that holds the show together. That being said, H/A needs to be tempered with practicality. Emptying chamber pots out the windows on unsuspecting Danes is not an advisable course of action.
Much has been said as to what peoples costumes and/or actions do to others enjoyment of the Faire. I would ask, "What do you bring to the Faire?". I make and fly kites and use bubble machines to show me what the ground wind is doing. I thought how can I bring my hobby of bubble making to the Faire? I designed the Renaissance Bubble Machine using technology and mechanical principles that were known at the time. The knowledge of soap goes as far back as the ancient Phoenecians and the 7th century Arabs. Bubbles occur in nature. And children making bubbles is documented in Pieter Bruegel's painting "Children's Games" (1560). Was a bubble machines ever made in this time period (?)... not to our knowlwdge. Could a bubble machine like mine have been made then (?)... yes, all the elements and knowlwdge were in place then. When questioned, I say " I asked myself, what would Master Leonardo do? Master Leonardo watches the birds to learn how they fly, I watch the bubbles in the wind to see that on which the birds fly". The whole setup is unintrusive and not until the patrons get close do they even know it is there. It makes smiles and sparks dialog as to wether this was possible in the Time of Elizabeth. It makes people think. I love hearing children explain to their parents how the machine works. I have brought something postive to the Faire which brings knowledge and enjoyment. Even Storm Troopers may come and play in my bubbles.
http://renstorearticles.blogspot.com/2007/03/felix-cartagena-renaissance-bubble.html (http://renstorearticles.blogspot.com/2007/03/felix-cartagena-renaissance-bubble.html)
It is bad enough that they are there because they (in the above video) think it's funny to disrupt the Faire, but it is made far worse by the miniscule effort he put into the robot. That "I want to be a pain, but I'm going to do it with as little effort as possible" attitude is a futher slap in the face. At least the StormTroopers put in some effort.
Just to play devil's advocate, then... would this be interpreted as mocking TRF by making a miniscule effort, doing the best he could given whatever resources he might have at hand, or just having a little tongue-in-cheek fun?
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff24/Tipsy_Gypsy66/DuctApe-1.jpg)
Not knowing the guy myself, I lean toward option #3, but others may see it differently; someone here may know him and be able to answer the question for certain. Me, I just thought it was pretty funny.
Quote from: Tipsy Gypsy on July 07, 2008, 12:00:57 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, then... would this be interpreted as mocking TRF by making a miniscule effort, doing the best he could given whatever resources he might have at hand, or just having a little tongue-in-cheek fun?
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff24/Tipsy_Gypsy66/DuctApe-1.jpg)
Not knowing the guy myself, I lean toward option #3, but others may see it differently; someone here may know him and be able to answer the question for certain. Me, I just thought it was pretty funny.
I wouldn't want to be seen DEAD with that guy. Even my ex made a far better attempt at garb than this guy. Thi sis to funny.. I am Lord Duck of Tape, Knight of the Sticky all binding substance.
I think it's probably impossible to enforce a strict costume rule. You would have to have people at the front gates checking everyone who comes in, and that's not fun for the customers. That said, I would prefer that people at least attempt to stick to the genre at hand. Wearing a wizard costume, while not being technically accurate, is at least derived from the overall impression people get from a "ren faire." Whereas wearing a storm trooper outfit really has no relevance to the theme and disrupts the overall renaissance experience. The goal for many faires is to recreate a town or village in the era and having other-worldy characters detracts from that.
Of course I've never seen anyone come to faire in sci-fi garb, so maybe this is an issue at just some faires. Most people come in either mundane clothing or some version of faire garb. Is this a big problem for some of you at your local faires?
I really haven't noticed that much sci-fi garb at TRF, myself. A stray storm trooper, someone on Halloween weekend dressed as Ash from Army of Darkness, and a girl I know wearing a gown from Riddick (to her credit, it did suit her). Not so much as to be an issue, IMO...
Quote from: Tipsy Gypsy on July 07, 2008, 12:00:57 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, then... would this be interpreted as mocking TRF by making a miniscule effort, doing the best he could given whatever resources he might have at hand, or just having a little tongue-in-cheek fun?
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff24/Tipsy_Gypsy66/DuctApe-1.jpg)
Not knowing the guy myself, I lean toward option #3, but others may see it differently; someone here may know him and be able to answer the question for certain. Me, I just thought it was pretty funny.
I am embarassed for him. Not upset or insulted, as it is an attempt at armor, although a pathetic one. I think he would have been better off just coming in mundane garb, although his lady friend is clearly in garb. Perhaps she could have given him a little advice a few weeks before the Faire, like "You are not going to be seen with me wearing that." First time garbing is so easy, even a pair of black jeans can be worn and a Ren shirt can be bought just inside the gates for around $30. That wold have been far better.
My wife saw the photo and right away that his lame attempt is most likely a snapshot of their relationship, with him making half-assed efforts to make it look like he is trying to take part in her interests.
Well let's not make too hasty a judgement about his intent. It's silly enough to give me a smile. I'll assume he was going for that.
Believe me, if you all had a picture of my first attempt at garb you'd tear me to shreds. A few years later and I'm still far from HA. I guess I'm in the Renaissance "like" category.
As for going out in garb, sure I've done it. En masse. Had a table next to our group ask which church we were from. ??? In all faireness we did have Father Simon with us, but still.....
Quote from: robert of armstrong on July 08, 2008, 11:31:18 AM
My wife saw the photo and right away that his lame attempt is most likely a snapshot of their relationship, with him making half-assed efforts to make it look like he is trying to take part in her interests.
Wow - let's not judge the guy's relationship! That seems a bit harsh. Most likely he's not terribly into faire, but his partner is - so he made an attempt to fit in
for her. I think it's cute. :)
My friend just gave me a heck of an answer for this debate. "If you don't let legally clothed people in, because you don't think they fit. Then, you're nothing more than a nightclub, picking and choosing it's patrons."
I loved it.
(http://i247.photobucket.com/albums/gg132/cobaltblu1/Misc/ChrisTheRobotAtRenFaire.jpg)
I think perhaps the best way to handle someone in a scifi costume (like "Chris the Robot") is to approach them and react how someone in the renaissance would react...or maybe instead of trying to behead them or burn them at the stake...inquire about their clothing and maybe they will either go away or get interested in getting more appropriate garb.
Honestly the more I think about it I wouldn't mind walking over to "Chris the Robot" and talking to him in character. If he is purposely being a moron then maybe he will see that he isn't annoying people...and if he somehow had good intentions maybe he will take my example and wear more appropriate garb the next time.
Regards,
CB
Quote from: Tipsy Gypsy on July 07, 2008, 12:00:57 PM
Just to play devil's advocate, then... would this be interpreted as mocking TRF by making a miniscule effort, doing the best he could given whatever resources he might have at hand, or just having a little tongue-in-cheek fun?
(http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff24/Tipsy_Gypsy66/DuctApe-1.jpg)
Not knowing the guy myself, I lean toward option #3, but others may see it differently; someone here may know him and be able to answer the question for certain. Me, I just thought it was pretty funny.
I totally
LOVE the duct tape! I think as long as someone makes some kind of effort, even a comical one, they should be appreciated. I hate to think what some of you would of said about the 3 guys who came to GSLRF in bed sheets as Scotsmen!
I thought scotsmen normally wore bedsheets... well, more like wool blankets. J/K, but if you want to get technical, kilts would not be period either, although anyone except for the most nazi of garb nazis could care less since the normal kilt wearing person does nothing but add to the faire.
As far as duct tape tin armor man, I am much more offended by someone in a pair of period breeches and shirt/jerkin that is wearing tennis shoes than a guy that comes in like this. He is rather benign when it comes down to it. If he or chris the robot or super geek sci-fi man wants to come in and interrupt the show, the stage performers and street cast in may cases are pretty well equipped to rip them a new one. I know I'll give pretty polite "go away signs" at first, but have no problem and have had no problem tongue lashing trouble makers in the middle of the street when needed.
OK, you know, this discussion has gotten me thinking... maybe we need to have a "wear your garb out to dinner" day!
I mean, not after Faire or before Faire or even during Faire season where you are... just to see who says what.
Don't act out of place or even seem at all aware that you're 'dressed up' and if someone (like a waiter) asks what you're dressed up for, simply reply...
"dinner"
Don't forget that they have "fantasy fairies" where they explicitly encourage guests to come in all kinds of costumes. There are fairies, dragons, wizards, as well as non-faire inspired costumes, including sci-fi. All in all it would seem more appropriate to wear those costumes to that kind of event and at least attempt a more authentic renaissance style of dress at a ren faire.
I am a Lady wizard and a Queen. If you don't like me- off with your head- or I have a bag of spells and a loaded wand! POOF! Fantasy and historically accurate can mix! Tis my Royal Decree!
I doff my chapeau to thee, o munificent majesty. Thou art truly wiser than Solomon and more generous of spirit than snarks.
Quote from: Queen Bonnie on July 09, 2008, 07:23:07 PM
I am a Lady wizard and a Queen. If you don't like me- off with your head- or I have a bag of spells and a loaded wand! POOF! Fantasy and historically accurate can mix! Tis my Royal Decree!
The Queen has spoken! LONG LIVE THE QUEEN!!! ;D
I have been watching this thread for quite some time, and wanted to think my response through thouroughly.
I am just learning about what is truly H/A, both in terms of garbing/accoutrement, and speech & mannerism, although I have been going to Faires since 2004. My 'garb' as it is now couldn't pass as H/A {this is what I wore for Pirate's Weekend last season ~ http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b155/tigereatsfire/trouble.jpg (http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b155/tigereatsfire/trouble.jpg), my wedding gown is DEFINITELY closer to H/A than anything I've ever worn ;D}, but as time for sewing and budget allows,{and my persona/personae ~ I'm a Gemini, there's ALWAYS more than one ;) ~ develop}, I plan to move toward more H/A garb for a number of reasons, but I also
never felt unwelcome in any of my 'attempts' at garbing thus far.
All the shows and shiny bits aside, what keeps me coming back year after year is the
FANTASY of an
HISTORICALLY ACCURATE environment.
I am too fond of the the flushies and tomatoes and {generally} decent hygiene to wish for a truly H/A Faire, but my love for Faires as they are do cause me to chafe a bit {ok, a lot} at those who would behave inappropriately, intentionally, and especially in large enough numbers to 'disrupt the entire atmosphere/environment of the Faire'.
One or three "Time Travelers" or grown-ups 'playing knight in duct-tape armor' add a bit of something more than the usual crowd for cast and playtrons to play with, IMHO, and {some of} the rest of us enjoy watching a Lady and her maids conversing with whatever may stroll by, and doing their best to keep in context. I admire the quick wit and silver tongue that can keep in character in those circumstances!
I do LOVE the historical aspects of Faire, and would hope that a welcoming, if witty and playful, environment would encourage the 'otherwise costumed' to explore just why Rennies do have more fun ;D
Being willing to invite others 'into your sandbox' as they are, as long as they're willing to 'play nicely' is more important to me than playing 'the right way'...just my two coins
Quote from: Cobaltblu on July 05, 2008, 03:42:47 PM
"Chris the Robot" as seen at The Sterling Renaissance Festival in 2007 (Not on Cast Obviously...Thank God).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCIlPWc4F3s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCIlPWc4F3s)
If people were not calling him a robot, it's really not that bad for a kid's attempt at "aluminum foil knight" costume ;)
Just thought of something about Storm Trooper armor...If one were to spray-paint the entire outfit with chrome or silver-looking paint, so that it looked like knight armor, it could pass for a knight in shining armor ;D
The mechanics of the two are not all that different.
Quote from: Al-Nimer on July 09, 2008, 11:37:31 PM
Quote from: Cobaltblu on July 05, 2008, 03:42:47 PM
"Chris the Robot" as seen at The Sterling Renaissance Festival in 2007 (Not on Cast Obviously...Thank God).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCIlPWc4F3s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCIlPWc4F3s)
If people were not calling him a robot, it's really not that bad for a kid's attempt at "aluminum foil knight" costume ;)
Maybe not that bad for a KID'S attempt but he was a grown man...
Regards,
CB
I suppose the real trick to faire is to look beyond what is seen as a box covered with tin foil and see the knight inside.
Perhaps that should be said of *all* of our attempts.
Quote from: Anna Iram on July 10, 2008, 11:02:15 AM
I suppose the real trick to faire is to look beyond what is seen as a box covered with tin foil and see the knight inside.
Perhaps that should be said of *all* of our attempts.
Well said, Anna!
Is Faire Not The Fantasy? I mean isn't our weekend escape into this realm an escape from reality into a fantasy world where we take on another identity and "live" in another world? Yes, it would be nice to NOT see stormtroopers or Darth Vader walking around, but those people pay their money to get in just like everyone else, and besides, they give us someone/something to make fun of.
Quote from: PurpleDragon on July 11, 2008, 11:30:45 AM
besides, they give us someone/something to make fun of.
Yep, while the people in mundanes are making fun of the people in Ren-garb.
(disclaimer: not everybody in mundanes, but I've seen more than a few who go to Faire for the express purpose of pointing and laughing at rennies so I feel safe in making this statement. Mostly because it seems silly to make fun of other people because of how they have fun. Unless they're in on the joke.)
I do, however, agree with you that Faire is the Fantasy. :)
That's just it. It really is all fantasy. All "make believe". For myself I don't find the fae or other magical creatures the least bit out of place. To me it's part of the culture. Then as now there are some who believe and some who don't. In my own home faire our Queen can see the fae and our King cannot.
I do think as has been said if one want's to experince a very particular slice of time one should seek out a SCA event. That's really the only place I would expect to see anything coming close to HA.
Are these events open to the public? Or does one need to be a memeber to attend?
Quote from: Anna Iram on July 11, 2008, 02:16:09 PM
In my own home faire our Queen can see the fae and our King cannot.
THAT is totally kewl!
Quote from: Valiss on July 09, 2008, 10:54:57 AM
Don't forget that they have "fantasy fairies" where they explicitly encourage guests to come in all kinds of costumes. There are fairies, dragons, wizards, as well as non-faire inspired costumes, including sci-fi. All in all it would seem more appropriate to wear those costumes to that kind of event and at least attempt a more authentic renaissance style of dress at a ren faire.
Nah.
What I do is go to Sci Fi conventions in garb.
It's great having them all come up to me and ask me who I am... I usually tell them I'm from a book that is due out later this year.
Hey, they come to our events, why not go to theirs?
Quote from: Count Adolfo on July 15, 2008, 02:17:02 PM
Quote from: Valiss on July 09, 2008, 10:54:57 AM
Don't forget that they have "fantasy fairies" where they explicitly encourage guests to come in all kinds of costumes. There are fairies, dragons, wizards, as well as non-faire inspired costumes, including sci-fi. All in all it would seem more appropriate to wear those costumes to that kind of event and at least attempt a more authentic renaissance style of dress at a ren faire.
Nah.
What I do is go to Sci Fi conventions in garb.
It's great having them all come up to me and ask me who I am... I usually tell them I'm from a book that is due out later this year.
Hey, they come to our events, why not go to theirs?
That'sa ctually pretty damn funny. I should have done this the time I stopped by a scifi convention.
Quote from: Count Adolfo on July 15, 2008, 02:17:02 PM
Nah.
What I do is go to Sci Fi conventions in garb.
It's great having them all come up to me and ask me who I am... I usually tell them I'm from a book that is due out later this year.
Hey, they come to our events, why not go to theirs?
I may have to try this one at the next sci-fi con I go to. Sounds like fun to me.
I'd personally like to see them more historically accurate. This would also include the many side shows which are more or less vaudeville/anachronism type shows and seldom in character or historical. I know there's a handful of really great exceptions to that last statement. I'd love to see more of that.
Quote from: shirefriar on July 15, 2008, 10:19:16 PM
I'd personally like to see them more historically accurate. This would also include the many side shows which are more or less vaudeville/anachronism type shows and seldom in character or historical. I know there's a handful of really great exceptions to that last statement. I'd love to see more of that.
While I am inclined to agree that there should be SOME historical accuracy, I think if you were to make it mandatory that all characters be as such, the faires would lose some of their appeal, and therefore many of the patrons. The fantasy characters are often times that which brings in the crowds, they want to see the new characters. I remember TRF had a Goblin Horde a few years back and they were a crowd favorite... then they went away, now there's another Barbarian Horde, and a new court is being introduced this season.. All in the name of changing things up a bit so customers aren't saying "Oh, this show again this year??"
I was thinking about songs such as Wild Mountain Thyme, Health to the Company, The parting Glass and Wild Rover...and realized they aren't exactly H/A for Henry VIII or Elizabeth I...and I believe they are often included in song times at faires.
Any faire which includes these songs in song times isn't being H/A. But they sure sound good though.
Regards,
CB
I love doing the Sci Fi shows...
personally, I'm not for the "historically accurate" because it would detract from our culture at Faire.
As it has been said here... there's likely more chivalry at one renaissance faire than there was in all the renaissance.
I like running water and bathing
I like many of the conveniences and creature comforts of today.
I think if we got TRULY historically accurate, very few people would go to Faire at all.
Quote from: PurpleDragon on July 16, 2008, 07:56:33 AM
Quote from: shirefriar on July 15, 2008, 10:19:16 PM
I'd personally like to see them more historically accurate. This would also include the many side shows which are more or less vaudeville/anachronism type shows and seldom in character or historical. I know there's a handful of really great exceptions to that last statement. I'd love to see more of that.
While I am inclined to agree that there should be SOME historical accuracy, I think if you were to make it mandatory that all characters be as such, the faires would lose some of their appeal, and therefore many of the patrons. The fantasy characters are often times that which brings in the crowds, they want to see the new characters. I remember TRF had a Goblin Horde a few years back and they were a crowd favorite... then they went away, now there's another Barbarian Horde, and a new court is being introduced this season.. All in the name of changing things up a bit so customers aren't saying "Oh, this show again this year??"
Some faires DO make it mandatory that you are historically accurate if you work there or otherwise gatelist there (NorCal faire, for example). They check your garb, accent and all that fun stuff to make sure you are helping to recreate a piece of history. Of course the paytrons will wear what they want, and that's fine. But I tend to agree that if you are trying to create a specific atmosphere (i.e. the renaissance), then having your employees show up dressed as Gandalf or Harry Potter just isn't going to scream authenticity. I think the people that show up and pay good money for the renaissance-type experience deserve to have the company that puts on faire strive to make that experience happen.
Again I have no problems with the paytrons showing up as whatever they want (though personally I would prefer if they choose to dress up that they attempt a renaissance-type costume, but whatever). And if you want to have witches, faries and all that, then why not put those characters on the stage (or street stage) where they can put on a performance as an actor.
Shirefriar, if you ever happen upon my little home faire of BARF be sure to see the "Kings Sing". Our King is the most wonderful baritone and accompanied by one or two minstrels he sings HA songs. Songs of the hunt and of wine and love. You'd love it!
Quote from: Valiss on July 16, 2008, 10:21:06 AM
Quote from: PurpleDragon on July 16, 2008, 07:56:33 AM
Quote from: shirefriar on July 15, 2008, 10:19:16 PM
I'd personally like to see them more historically accurate. This would also include the many side shows which are more or less vaudeville/anachronism type shows and seldom in character or historical. I know there's a handful of really great exceptions to that last statement. I'd love to see more of that.
While I am inclined to agree that there should be SOME historical accuracy, I think if you were to make it mandatory that all characters be as such, the faires would lose some of their appeal, and therefore many of the patrons. The fantasy characters are often times that which brings in the crowds, they want to see the new characters. I remember TRF had a Goblin Horde a few years back and they were a crowd favorite... then they went away, now there's another Barbarian Horde, and a new court is being introduced this season.. All in the name of changing things up a bit so customers aren't saying "Oh, this show again this year??"
Some faires DO make it mandatory that you are historically accurate if you work there or otherwise gatelist there (NorCal faire, for example). They check your garb, accent and all that fun stuff to make sure you are helping to recreate a piece of history. Of course the paytrons will wear what they want, and that's fine. But I tend to agree that if you are trying to create a specific atmosphere (i.e. the renaissance), then having your employees show up dressed as Gandalf or Harry Potter just isn't going to scream authenticity. I think the people that show up and pay good money for the renaissance-type experience deserve to have the company that puts on faire strive to make that experience happen.
Again I have no problems with the paytrons showing up as whatever they want (though personally I would prefer if they choose to dress up that they attempt a renaissance-type costume, but whatever). And if you want to have witches, faries and all that, then why not put those characters on the stage (or street stage) where they can put on a performance as an actor.
I think the main issue of the original post was the acts and such.. Unfortunately, there aren't that many Shakespearean trained acting troupes to fill the stages at the festivals to put on historically accurate shows and such.
If you take the "fantasy" type characters out, or go for the historically accurate aspect, the Pirates have to go away as they are about 100 years before their time in most Faires. ;)
Quote from: PurpleDragon on July 16, 2008, 11:15:05 AM
If you take the "fantasy" type characters out, or go for the historically accurate aspect, the Pirates have to go away as they are about 100 years before their time in most Faires. ;)
Common misconception. The garb would have to change (thrum caps instead of tricorns, short jackets instead of justaucorps, etc), but the pirates would still be there. Pirates have been around since Ogg paddled around in the water on a log and Brak decided he wanted the log and took it by force.
Quote from: Mad Jack Wolfe on July 16, 2008, 11:23:45 AM
Quote from: PurpleDragon on July 16, 2008, 11:15:05 AM
If you take the "fantasy" type characters out, or go for the historically accurate aspect, the Pirates have to go away as they are about 100 years before their time in most Faires. ;)
Common misconception. The garb would have to change (thrum caps instead of tricorns, short jackets instead of justaucorps, etc), but the pirates would still be there. Pirates have been around since Ogg paddled around in the water on a log and Brak decided he wanted the log and took it by force.
So what you're saying there Jack is that Brak had to fight with Ogg and then of course his feud with Zorak started and well we all know how that goes. ((bonus points for the first one to get the reference))
Quote from: PurpleDragon on July 16, 2008, 11:15:05 AM
Quote from: Valiss on July 16, 2008, 10:21:06 AM
Quote from: PurpleDragon on July 16, 2008, 07:56:33 AM
Quote from: shirefriar on July 15, 2008, 10:19:16 PM
I'd personally like to see them more historically accurate. This would also include the many side shows which are more or less vaudeville/anachronism type shows and seldom in character or historical. I know there's a handful of really great exceptions to that last statement. I'd love to see more of that.
While I am inclined to agree that there should be SOME historical accuracy, I think if you were to make it mandatory that all characters be as such, the faires would lose some of their appeal, and therefore many of the patrons. The fantasy characters are often times that which brings in the crowds, they want to see the new characters. I remember TRF had a Goblin Horde a few years back and they were a crowd favorite... then they went away, now there's another Barbarian Horde, and a new court is being introduced this season.. All in the name of changing things up a bit so customers aren't saying "Oh, this show again this year??"
Some faires DO make it mandatory that you are historically accurate if you work there or otherwise gatelist there (NorCal faire, for example). They check your garb, accent and all that fun stuff to make sure you are helping to recreate a piece of history. Of course the paytrons will wear what they want, and that's fine. But I tend to agree that if you are trying to create a specific atmosphere (i.e. the renaissance), then having your employees show up dressed as Gandalf or Harry Potter just isn't going to scream authenticity. I think the people that show up and pay good money for the renaissance-type experience deserve to have the company that puts on faire strive to make that experience happen.
Again I have no problems with the paytrons showing up as whatever they want (though personally I would prefer if they choose to dress up that they attempt a renaissance-type costume, but whatever). And if you want to have witches, faries and all that, then why not put those characters on the stage (or street stage) where they can put on a performance as an actor.
I think the main issue of the original post was the acts and such.. Unfortunately, there aren't that many Shakespearean trained acting troupes to fill the stages at the festivals to put on historically accurate shows and such.
If you take the "fantasy" type characters out, or go for the historically accurate aspect, the Pirates have to go away as they are about 100 years before their time in most Faires. ;)
But I'm not even talking about Pirates, per se. Pirates actually existed at one point in time. Look, the truth is that "the renaissance" to the general public covers everything from King Arthur and his knights to Shakespeare. And really, I don't mind if someone (customer or actor) is 100 years off the faire in their costume attempt; at least they are trying, right? I'm more referring to the fantasy characters: wizards, elves, witches, fairies and other stuff that never existed to begin with. And to that end, I'm only referring to the actors that work for the faire, not the customers, when it comes to avoiding the fantasy costumes.
There are entire "fantasy fairies" dedicated to this genre and many come dressed as dragons, Harry Potter, etc. So to the end, I think that most of that stuff should stay at those faires and the more reality based stuff at traditional faire. But that's just me. :)
Zorak
Quote from: PurpleDragon on July 16, 2008, 11:27:44 AM
Quote from: Mad Jack Wolfe on July 16, 2008, 11:23:45 AM
Quote from: PurpleDragon on July 16, 2008, 11:15:05 AM
If you take the "fantasy" type characters out, or go for the historically accurate aspect, the Pirates have to go away as they are about 100 years before their time in most Faires. ;)
Space Ghost baby! He's Coast to Coast!
Common misconception. The garb would have to change (thrum caps instead of tricorns, short jackets instead of justaucorps, etc), but the pirates would still be there. Pirates have been around since Ogg paddled around in the water on a log and Brak decided he wanted the log and took it by force.
So what you're saying there Jack is that Brak had to fight with Ogg and then of course his feud with Zorak started and well we all know how that goes. ((bonus points for the first one to get the reference))
Quote from: Valiss on July 16, 2008, 11:33:05 AM
So what you're saying there Jack is that Brak had to fight with Ogg and then of course his feud with Zorak started and well we all know how that goes. ((bonus points for the first one to get the reference))
Space Ghost baby! He's Coast to Coast!
You know Valiss, I knew I liked you for a reason... You get a COOKIE!!!!!!!!
Quote from: PurpleDragon on July 16, 2008, 01:59:44 PM
Quote from: Valiss on July 16, 2008, 11:33:05 AM
So what you're saying there Jack is that Brak had to fight with Ogg and then of course his feud with Zorak started and well we all know how that goes. ((bonus points for the first one to get the reference))
Space Ghost baby! He's Coast to Coast!
You know Valiss, I knew I liked you for a reason... You get a COOKIE!!!!!!!!
Huzzah!! (appearantly there arent enough Huzzah's nowadays) :)
Just curious on this topic.
I've been going mundane to Ren Fests for years now and never really got the urge to dress
up but this year my wife and I are.
Not really knowing much about HA I went out and put together a pretty nice (imo)
musketeer outfit. I've always enjoyed Dumas and the romantic chevelier notion.
Should I feel self-conscious about it or am I pretty much going to blend
in and not get dirty looks from most of the people dressed up...
It's more of a 1630-1660ish period costume probably and isn't HA to the last detail...
(price constraints do come into play also hehe)
I don't think I have ever been to a faire and not seen a Musketeer, you will be fine.
:o You mean there are musketeers at the faire??? ;D
I don't see a problem with fantasy characters at Faire especially my home Faire of Sterling. Sterling is an Elizabethan Festival based on her many summer progresses. Queen Elizabeth had outstanding pageants performed for her with many different fantasy characters (fairies, sprites, elves, Arthurian characters, Ancient Roman, Medieval, etc..) so it wouldn't be out of place to see them wandering around the Festival. The fantasy characters are HA in my opinion.
QuoteYou mean there are musketeers at the faire???
...are these the ones who wear the big round black ears and white sweatshirts with their name on them?
Quote from: JeanClaudeLeBlanc on May 29, 2009, 02:54:49 PM
Just curious on this topic.
I've been going mundane to Ren Fests for years now and never really got the urge to dress
up but this year my wife and I are.
Not really knowing much about HA I went out and put together a pretty nice (imo)
musketeer outfit. I've always enjoyed Dumas and the romantic chevelier notion.
Should I feel self-conscious about it or am I pretty much going to blend
in and not get dirty looks from most of the people dressed up...
It's more of a 1630-1660ish period costume probably and isn't HA to the last detail...
(price constraints do come into play also hehe)
FWIW, we took my parents to Faire for the first time this year & my moms favorite of all the garbed 'characters' were the Musketeers.
Ooooh, how many times I have discussed this topic with various friends LOL. In reality, SCA is really where the ren fests started. It's grown and taken on a life of it's own since those early years. So, the roots of the renaissance festival are founded in historical accuracy. As a parent I kind of like the historical accuracy, what better way for my kids to learn about that part of history. However, as a business woman this is a fine line I walk every day. I make horse costuming (and people costuming). Take horses and the joust, the joust cannot be historically accurate. It can be historically representative but if we made it accurate we would see jousters dead on the tilt due to the nature of jousting in the renaissance.
Also, from a business mindset, what brings in the money. Yes, I know we all hate going to this subject but it's the reality. It costs money to run a festival and you have to look at what brings in the profits. Lets be honest, while we get a smattering of folks coming into festival that are involved in guilds and SCA or are just historians seeking a historic experience, most of the paytrons are everyday people from the surrounding communities. In marketing you have to look at where the biggest draw is, what appeals to a larger demographic. Most families that are coming with their kids love the whole "make believe, fantasy" setting the faire provides, etc. It's all about finding a balance.
Balance.... that's the ticket. I'll tell you a lil story.
Back in the late 70's , country music in NYC was a small ( very small) niche, but there was a few places to play. Then the whole
Urban Cowboy thing exploded and suddenly if you played fiddle ( I do) you could make good money playing in country bands, like playing 6 nights a week and 2x on Sunday. But it was all line dancers, they pays the cover charge and drink water all night.
Time went on and suddenly none the clubs could afford to have live music and so the country music craze that swept NYC swept right back out again. And we were back to not being able to fill a card table with people to come and hear country music again.
The point being you need different folks that like different parts of your venue, or when the shine is off the apple, you will go down.
Being so HC that most folks won;t care to come is a sure fire receipe for gov't bail out money. And too far the other way just makes it seem like a Halloween party.
Balance.
Has anyone mentioned "Steam Punk"? There are so many pages, I've not taken the time to read them all.
I've just returned home from the Kentucky Highland Ren Fest, where I had a very interesting conversation with no less than a Knights Templar, who educated me on the new cult of "Steam Punk".
He, himself, is planning to attend the faire in full "Steam Punk" garb, and warned me that there may soon be an influx of such weirdly clad patrons at our Ren Fests!
I, for one, don't mind seeing a variety of historic-types, but I'm not impressed with Star Trek characters, Vampires, Zombies, and the like. They have their own conventions and festivals where they're more than welcome. And I think Steam Punk is going to be something I won't be tickled to see, either. But, it is a faire, and it is for fun. I, being a Pirate, am not always welcome at some Renaissance or Medieval Faires, being told that Pirates didn't exist in those days....(I beg to differ, but...) I just wish that these more modern types would understand and respect the fact that it IS a "Renaissance or Medieval" faire where characters are based, however loosely, on HISTORIC times. I do enjoy seeing fairies, ogres and trolls. They're are part of the magical realm of that time period, so they do belong and they do give more color to the faire in general.
Who cares.... I mean...some are more historically accurate than others... but I've seen gorillas, Darth Vader, fairies, monsters, etc.... I'm Merlin as I see Merlin...who is a fictional character... I'll also be wearing a kilt of my family clan but I can guarantee that my viking/scot relatives didn't have a sporran made of poly-leather and wore boots with non slip rubber soles.
The Faire is a place that anyone should feel comfortable and have fun... it's the one place that you shouldn't feel like a weirdo or a nerd. Wear whatever you want.... just accept others as they are and have a good time.
HUZZAH !
DW
I've avoided weighing in on this topic for some time. But some things I've seen recently have crystallized my thoughts quite a bit more.
I realize that no Faire is going to turn away a paying customer.
But my personal preference would be to shy away from anything that smacks of modernity....
That includes storm troopers, star trek characters and modern goth with pale skinned girls on
black leather leashes.
Why? Because it does take away from the magic of those trying to imagine a time gone by.
And I know people who worked an SCA booth at Sci-Fi cons who were hassled by the Sci-Fi types.
As far as Ren-Faires; the pirates, the musketeers, the fairies, the elves , the Indians and the magicians don't bother me because they would have been, at least somewhat, comprehensible to a 16th century person.
If a boy in black leather leading a girl on a leash had walked by the real Marquesa de Rende in 1535,
she would have ran screaming for a priest because devils were loose on the streets.
And I think casual visitors to the faire agree with me somewhat, because they flock around the people
in some type of historical dress, when the trekkies and such are given a wide berth.
I think Faires like TRF and Scarby see this also, so they'll have Fae on cast, but probably never, ever a Storm Trooper.
Dona Catalina,
I now have images of ladies running en mass while being chased by gothic faries on leashes LOL!
The players and vendors should be as accurate as the owners wish them to be. As far as patrons are concerned, it's their dime and time. At TRF, Rani & I are doing a steampunk invasion & Queen Bonnie & I are doing a Harry Potter invasion, both over All Hallows Eve weekend. Hey, it may be just me invading, but my intention is to make the weekend as fun as possible. For that matter, there are Roman Bachanalia, Pirate, Scottish, etc. weekends, none of which are too particularly Renaissance-y. I think that goes to show that the owners know that they need to have themes other than Renaissance for people who want to trot out their toga or whatever. But I don't see the toga'ed folks griping that the ren garbed folks are cutting in on their time. I personally liked the kilted Storm Trooper crashing the party, but doing so w/a sense of humor.
On the other hand, this is TRF and I once read a review of it as being a "freak show."
I was dumbfounded a few years back when I was roundly scolded by a garbed faire-goer about my choice of costume.
As an avid fencer and fan of RennFest I decided years ago to dress as a Musketeer, and my wife designed and hand-sewed an amazing tunic for me. I mean this tunic is astonishingly gorgeous! This "gentleman" was actually angry and loudly informed me that my garb was not Rennaisance Era and was "only off by 400 years". I was so shocked at his outburst that I was actually speechless!
Honestly, because of this one idiot, I became very self conscious about dressing as a Musketeer from then on - and have not enjoyed Faire as much as I used to. I still have that outfit but have added a second costume to wear. I understand that some folks care a lot about historical accuracy but I didn't deserve THAT!
I don't know what the point of this message is, just thought I'd share.
WH
The Boors will always be with us. I'm sorry that some loud mouth diminished your enjoyment of faire.
On another note - I personally don't like to see Stormtroopers & Trekkies and the like at RennFest. Renaissance Festivals and Science Fiction Conventions are two different animals IMO. They just look so completely out of place. The RennFaire is, in theory, a recreation of an era, and although fairies, goblins, and such are commonly associated with that era - whether they actually existed or not, Darth Vader and Spock were not. Some mixing is fine with me, but bringing science fiction to a Renaissance Festival is pushing the envelope.
Again, just my opinion - people must also remain free to do as they please, with harm to none. So bring on the Force!
WH
I'm with you, Witchhawk. If HA was the goal, then they shouldn't allow anyone in that wasn't HA. That means no jeans or t-shirts, or eyeglasses.
Let them wear what they like! And any comments like "you're only off by 400 years"? Get a life, buddy!
Got to love the Garb Nazi's... >:(
WH, it saddens me that you had such an experience, but please don't let some loudmouth's (who probably wasn't wearing 100% HA garb himself) comments make you self conscious. Do you love the musketeer garb and feel great in it? Then by all means, wear it! Go to the photography forum and browse some of the picture threads, you'll see all kinds of garb.
Renaissance festivals are NOT historical reenactments, and it drives me nuts when people complain about the way patrons are dressed and people's personas. I once stumbled upon an online community that was all about historical accuracy, and I must say it was quite humorous. These people were hardcore - they wanted Renaissance festivals to be accurate depictions of sixteenth century English villages with accurately dressed patrons, crafters, and performers. Absolutely NO pirates, gypsies, fantasy characters, medieval garb or kilts! NO KILTS!? Ladies, I think we can all agree that would be tragic! ;D
Anyway, my point is that faire is all about FUN. Sure, the historical influence is there, but I think the important thing is the spirit of it all rather than striving for accuracy. I've seen HA court ladies standing next to pirates and fairies and it all blends together beautifully. Hell, I don't even have a problem with a Stormtroopers, though I admit I find kilted Stormtroopers pretty darn cool! 8)
Hi, Athena!!!
You all know my stance on accuracy...the only one in my house 100% period accurate is my squirrel...everyone knows squirrels wore battle kilts during the renaissance...besides, having a small pox vaccination scar automatically renders me (and anyone else with one) period-inaccurate...and now, a poem...ahem...
Renfests forever
Garb Nazis NEVER!
Cheers!!
AMRAS!!!! See you & the Squirrel soon!
Oh, and for those who get their bloomers - OOPS not HA - I mean their slops and farthingales in a twist, the festivals themselves are chock full of anachronisms. I highly doubt that things like Mastercard, Lady Visa, chicken fajitas, Coke, Pepsi, and port-o-potties existed in the 1500's. So let's all relax and have some fun!
I used to agonise over historical accuracy. Finally, I woke up to the fact that it mattered more to me than anyone else, and I was only driving myself crazy in the process. Coming to that realisation helped me more than anything to truly enjoy faire. I can fully immerse myself and have fun, and be completely at ease.
As far as Starfleet personnel, Imperial stormtroopers, Furries, barbarians, Steampunks, fairies, etc... it doesn't bother me that much really. I've described faire to people that it's as if you've not only gone backwards in time, but sideways in realities. So naturally you get this funky mishmash of different eras, fantasy characters, all that. And your technology still works. Let's face it-- to be as HA as some people want it, your credit cards and money would be unusable, and you'd have to surrender your car keys and mobile at the front gates. Cameras too.
Lighten up! It's only faire! ;D
Quote from: Mad Jack Wolfe on August 28, 2009, 01:18:02 PM
...not only gone backwards in time, but sideways in realities.
Outstanding, Mad Jack...truly outstanding!!!
Cheers!
I have to agree with all of you. I try to be as historically accurate as is feasible, but I really don't think that it is entirely possible, in this day and age. And as for the Stormtroopers, at least they dressed up and came out, even if they are terribly out of place. They are still trying to get into the spirit of things. So why should it bother me, if everyone is having a good time? I am certainly not going to let anyone ruin my experience by what they are wearing. As long as I have my faire and my friends, I am a happy camper. Why not let them enjoy it, too?
I worked at Heritage Village as a docent showing a Victorian house.
It was mentioned to be historically accurate, we should sew our clothes by hand, Victorian style.
Um....I don't want to be standing there in my VS as my clothes fall apart while I am wearing them.
But then, VS isn't historically accurate either.
Some things you just have to bend the rules on.
Yes, I don't know why I let that one guy get to me so - but for some reason what he said and how he said it truly hurt. Obviously, as the memory is still clear to me today. I stated earlier that I don't especially likethe science fiction people,but I am open minded enough to let them be who they are - and I would never in a thousand years confront someone else to chastise their garb selection. That would be pretty much like saying, "I am better than you because I dressed in period." And that has no place anywhere - especially Faire!
I appreciate everyone's kind words, and I will go back to my out of period, not historically correct, wrong country Musketeer tunic if I revisit the MD Faire later in the season. That dern thing is too hot to wear any other time! Its a nice community here, I'm glad I decided to drop a few lines here and there!
WH
Just to add my two cents:
Even the SCA isnt entirely accurate- I have seen far too many reigning monarchs with eyeglasses and other 'anachronisms'...
The only way to be entirely accurate would be to build a time machine and actually go there.
Barring Playtrons due to thier garb is a BAD idea... it makes the organization look bad, and makes the people who are PAYING TO BE THERE feel bad about themselves, and maybe not return.
I think, when done well, you can have a good mix... like, the fae not directly interfering with the 'historic' cast, or if they do, the 'historic' cast cant see them...
I may have written this earlier, but I have no plans to go back through 18 pages to see.
At the Bristol Ren Faire, one of the largest and oldest in the country, Queen Elizabeth's Sheriff has run in's with Robin Hood, Maid Marian & the Merry Men at least 5 shows a day in the lanes. At some point, the "good guys" shoot some kind of pistol at them.
Since Robin Hood was in the 1200's, QE 1 in the 1500's, and my husband says the pistols are from the late 1600s, I guess the patrons don't care, because they come in droves, the faire doesn't care, because paying people come in droves, and I don't care because everyone has a good time.
And even when the Costume Director asked me to lower my skirt and cover my bloomers while I marched in the parade because they were too bright, I didn't care! She actually told me they were really cute, and I was ecstatic that she even noticed them!
When everybody has fun, everybody wins, because then we know the faire will continue. ;D
Hey. My $0.02 cents worth. As a reenactor who does 1700s-1850's, I am not 100% hist. accurate. I do the best with what I've got. I hate garb nazi's (including the ones who weren't going to let me back to an event the next year (to sell my goods) because I was dressed as a sailor instead of a girl ::) )
At renaissance festivals, I say _most_ anything goes. I wouldn't mind seeing Ash (Army of Darkness) again, or stormtroopers, or star trek. I'd rather they keep it to the Comic Conventions, but, hey. At least they have the underlying "love of dressing up, no matter the looks from mundanes" attitude !!
Faires or festivals should be a blend of real life characters, and a touch of fantasy (fae, dragon, oriental food booth, etc).
Life is too short to worry about little details !! (coming from someone who appreciates being around after surviving cancer twice, 30, and 33)
Shannon. so.-east Mich.
Quote from: Lady Renee Buchanan on August 28, 2009, 06:52:27 PM
Since Robin Hood was in the 1200's, QE 1 in the 1500's, and my husband says the pistols are from the late 1600s, I guess the patrons don't care, because they come in droves, the faire doesn't care, because paying people come in droves, and I don't care because everyone has a good time.
When everybody has fun, everybody wins, because then we know the faire will continue. ;D
My Lady, you've hit it exactly.
Folks come, pay, and have fun. We work at developing personas, having approvable costumes, and try to keep in character because that's what we enjoy.
As an aside, is Fieda your costume director, too? Are Susan and Ron still working at Bristol. If so, please say Hi from Carl and Judy.
Quote from: shadowcat546 on August 29, 2009, 10:59:54 AM
At renaissance festivals, I say _most_ anything goes. I wouldn't mind seeing Ash (Army of Darkness) again, or stormtroopers, or star trek. I'd rather they keep it to the Comic Conventions, but, hey. At least they have the underlying "love of dressing up, no matter the looks from mundanes" attitude !!
Hey, technically Ash IS HA...lol if you take the movie as truth ;D
now if only the guy who does him were as scrumptious as the REAL Ash... *droolBruceCampbelldrool*
Hi Bellevivre. WIthin the last 3 yrs, I saw two "Ash's" dressed very like his character (including the chainsaw on hand, rippe shirt). Really had the right build, was handsome, posed for a pic for me. I'll try to find it.
I also reenact Civil War, which I love, but talk about the worst garb Nazi's of all time! I understand that we are portraying a much better documented (i.e. military manuals, supply logs, etc.), more recent time period, and the reenacting of actual events so it is easier and more necessary to have more accurate clothing. But some of these guy start counting button hole stitches like their life depends on it. :o I completely quite going to a Civil War forum because of some of the hateful things that were said there, including the fact that women couldn't dress as soldiers because they didn't fight during the Civil War (uh, so what about the 400 DOCUMENTED cases of disguised female soldiers and the estimated 4000 women that fought in disguise?). While I, too, would rather keep the storm Troopers to scifi cons they don't bother me and are welcome if they will take some good humored ribbing! ;) It all boils down to what you like. I like firing a 12 pound cannon. I have a GREAT group of guys (and now 4 additional woman soldiers!) that love having us. Do I get dirty looks from time to time? Yes. Do I have fun anyway? You bet! :D
Ron and Susan Fry retired from Bristol after 2008, they're off doing other things and from the sounds of it having a wonderful time. We miss them, yet I am extremely grateful that Bob Brinkman took the reins. This year has been incredible, and I hope he returns to lead us again in 2010.
Musketeers Are Not 400 years away from Elizabeth I, that would make them either 1100's or 1900's. The Snark couldn't even get his snark right!!! They are from the late 1500's in Spain to the mid and later 1600's in England. So you're certainly Not That Far out of period, especially if you come from Spain. Wear your garb proudly!!
Dayna
I can not recall where I read it but I once came across something that said that Native Americans in this time period would not be H/A. And I've noticed that a representation of Native Americans as well as Africans, Asians and East Indians are greatly missing. Where there not peoples of color in the Queen's England?
I definitely agree that it should not/cannot be historically accurate. If you try to enforce this, you are going to alienate a lot of people. Face it: this garb costs a lot of bucks. Not all of us are handy with a needle and thread. And a lot of the patrons who come in garb (and that includes myself and DH) simply can't afford to spend a lot of money on clothes and weapons and jewelry. Some of us are on very limited budgets and have to scrimp and save to go to the faire. This includes gas, hotel room, ticket money, food and drink and money to spend on a little something from the vendors. So not all of us can wear stuff that is HA and sending the fashion police after paying patrons is not good for business. Some of us have garb that includes a little bit of this and a little bit of that and is not HA at all. The jewelry I'm going to wear this year is all that I've made myself.
I think the whole point is to come dressed any way that you like from any era or no era and have fun.
Unless you are a noble person, garb of a little bit of this a little bit of that would be H/A, would it not. The peasant class may have inherited a garment from someone, swapped with a neighbor who's youngest has out grown it, you get the picture. The merchant class may still have some pieces from before they had a little money. And as folks from the 21st most of us only know what we see on t.v. and in movies, who are known to fudge what is and isn't H/A, for the sake of appearances. So wear what you like, although I have a bit of problem with the fur clad bikini viking women, and bikini chain-maille chicks, put some clothes on already. yeah yeah if you read my intro you know that I on one occasion dressed as a fur clad viking woman but it wasn't a bikini it was a mini skirt and halter. :-[
Last year at the faire I saw a ninja. This year I will be looking for a samurai. Though I think that would be pretty cool to see!
Quote from: Lady Renee Buchanan on August 28, 2009, 06:52:27 PM
When everybody has fun, everybody wins, because then we know the faire will continue. ;D
Thank you Lady Renee...and Amen!
I even get a kick out of the Goths.
I also do western/civil war era characters, and I can assure you Garb Nazi's (or Period Police as they are referred to in the SCA) are EVERYWHERE.
Quote from: Rhiannon on September 02, 2009, 07:56:32 PM
Last year at the faire I saw a ninja. This year I will be looking for a samurai. Though I think that would be pretty cool to see!
I always feel sorry for the ninja all that black tight fitting clothing with face covered and its 103 in the shade. We had a samurai at Scarby a season or so back he looked great also had an entire family dress in the uniform of the Greek Royal guard no H/A for 1533 but totally rocking to see. Of course being scottish wearing a small kilt and carrying a 18th century style basket is totally H/A ::) but it is what the average joe thinks of when he thinks of a highlander.
I've never dressed totally H/A a faire-day in my life. Part of it is because I'm always scrimping and coming up with whatever I can and then when I did have money to buy all new garb, I bought what looked fun to me. I'm utterly unconcerned with being H/A. I think people who are concerned with accuracy are awesome, and more power to them so long as their not being garb nazis. But I like a mix of history and fantasy. Mostly I just want to dress up, see others dress up, and have a good time.
accuracy is the greatest if that's your thing. I like to know what is h/a for the knowledge base and if i ever wanted to be head to toe H/A. I Like the old saying goes... You have to know the rules to break the rules!