Sooooo...I'm crazy, we all know that by now, right? I'm potentially planning for next year's garb an authentic h/a gypsy outfit, using *this* for my inspiration:
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g321/TheWickedvox/fortunet.jpg)
Here are my questions and observations:
1. Do you thing the blue fabric on her wrap is velvet? And her sleeve--brown velvet??
2. Of all the gypsy paintings I've seen, this one is the most ornate--do you think it's possible there were "upper class" gypsies?
3. I believe, from other paintings also, their outfits are very similar to peasant or middle-class English. The links Operafan and Isabella have posted led me to some *awesome* sources which I was able to magnify, and I DO believe some of them had pin on/tie on sleeves with bodices under their wraps. What say you?
4. More proof of adoption of English class--she's got *guards* on her skirt!!
5. Is it just my imagination, or does that wrap have gold fringe?!
6. Could I get away with microsuede for the wrap and sleeves?? I HATE (emphatically) sewing velvet.
7. *What* is that orange fabric with flowers?? Brocade??
So this is for all you pros--I want to pull this off--HELP!
Answers to some questions that I know from when Capt Marga helped my daughter with her Gypsy garb.
1. NO a gypsy might have a piece of velvet in their garb; but anything more than a fragment would have been assumed stolen.
2. NO. Gypsies were always considered to be tramps and thieves by the upper classes.
3. Gypsies (Rom) generally adapted to local dress somewhat. The shawl thing seems to be the ubiqitous gypsy garment for the Renaissance and Middle Ages.
4.Guards are actually practical for a woman who spends most of her day outdoors. The added bits of fabric cover up or replace dirty and worn hemlines.
5. Yellow fringe, or dusty tan. Saffron was used to dye a lot of fabrics. But a gypsy would not have been able to afford gold bullion fringe. That amount would roughly equal the yearly income of a village.
6.The original is probably linen or wool. Microsuede would probably make it unwearable very quickly.
7. the colorful drape at the top is a seperate piece of fabric folded like a pocket.
In Medieval and Renaissance times, Roma were known as Gypsies (in English) as a result of their proclaiming themselves to be penitents from Egypt. Their women adopted a style of dress which evolved during our period, but kept some elements throughout: (1) some sort of turban was worn (though the style of turban varied); and (2) a blanket, worn so that it fastened over one shoulder and passed under the opposite arm. The undergarments might change with time and place, but the draped blanket remained. Probably dresses were acquired in the towns through which the Roma traveled and, since the Roma may have obtained their clothing second hand, these gowns might be whatever the women of that area had worn years -- or a generation -- earlier. http://www.larsdatter.com/romani.htm
Although the sleeve does appear to be velvet, I'd say the drape is actually wool. That dark blue was a popular color for the drape and you'll see it in a few other Gypsy painting.
Remember, ornate does not always equal class. In this case, it is colorful but it looks to be colorful in the sense many middle class outfits were colorful - to the point of being completely ridiculous in the eyes of the upper class.
Yes, some of them have tie on sleeves and seem even wore regional dresses but not all. It looks like her sleeves are some how tied to either a very wildly printed garment beneath the drape or to the drape itself. The vast majority of the gypsies in period art wear a loose fitted chemise like gown (http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Habitus6.JPG) (which was popular in Italy at the start of the 16th C for maternity clothing) over their chemise. That is most likely what you are seeing here - the guarding is not a skirt but the bottom to the loose gown.
Yes, it could be fringe but it also could be just gold trim.
No, microsuede is plastic. Use wool for the drape and, if you truly don't want to play with cotton velvet for the sleeves, go with uncut corduroy.
The oddly colored fabrics on her shoulders are Indian printed linens and, maybe, cotton. Although this is later (http://demodecouture.com/wordpress/wp-contents/uploads/2009/10/1650-99_India_painted_robe.jpg) you can see the similarities between the fabric in the painting and this rather wild one.
Hope that helps! So glad you are doing this!
The guys outfit is pretty interesting in that painting as well. Are those slashed hose, and is he pulling the bottom part of the orange shirt through the slashes?
Quote from: isabelladangelo on August 24, 2012, 06:48:39 AM
Although the sleeve does appear to be velvet, I'd say the drape is actually wool. That dark blue was a popular color for the drape and you'll see it in a few other Gypsy painting.
Remember, ornate does not always equal class. In this case, it is colorful but it looks to be colorful in the sense many middle class outfits were colorful - to the point of being completely ridiculous in the eyes of the upper class.
Yes, some of them have tie on sleeves and seem even wore regional dresses but not all. It looks like her sleeves are some how tied to either a very wildly printed garment beneath the drape or to the drape itself. The vast majority of the gypsies in period art wear a loose fitted chemise like gown (http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/Habitus6.JPG) (which was popular in Italy at the start of the 16th C for maternity clothing) over their chemise. That is most likely what you are seeing here - the guarding is not a skirt but the bottom to the loose gown.
Yes, it could be fringe but it also could be just gold trim.
No, microsuede is plastic. Use wool for the drape and, if you truly don't want to play with cotton velvet for the sleeves, go with uncut corduroy.
The oddly colored fabrics on her shoulders are Indian printed linens and, maybe, cotton. Although this is later (http://demodecouture.com/wordpress/wp-contents/uploads/2009/10/1650-99_India_painted_robe.jpg) you can see the similarities between the fabric in the painting and this rather wild one.
Hope that helps! So glad you are doing this!
Thank you both! Dona, I thought guards were more middle-class, never thought--duh!--more appropo to lowerclass d/t function. Thanks!
Isabella--your loose fitted chemise link is "FORBIDDEN!" Lol! I'd like to see it. From what I can extrapolate from what's going on up top, it seems to be a high-necked smock, and since it has attached sleeves, there's got to be a bodice, right? I can't tell if that kind-of diamond print-looking black & white edging is part of the blanket or if it runs down the shoulder of the *chemise* because it looks like it runs from the high neck to where the sleeve attaches, but *also* looks like it could be a trim on the side edge of the blanket. :/ The sleeve fabric looks so rich, I might interpret it with uncut corduroy. I agree with the blue wool too. And it seems I'll be looking for an orange calico type fabric. I'm stoked!
Ser Niall--It seems to me he's wearing boot hose *over* yellow nether hose (like slops but without the panes). It *is* very interesting, I've never seen them worn like that!
Does anyone think the man behind him may be a male gypsy, distracting the mark from the child picking his pocket?? I need to figure out how to dress my husband to be my counterpart and am seeing very few examples. I'm going to investigate the paintings more closely.
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/habitus.htm
It's the last one on that page called a house dress - however, it's similar to what the Gypsies are wearing just minus the drape. I doubt that the sleeves are attached to a bodice - they can be pinned to any fabric and often were.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on August 24, 2012, 02:33:40 PM
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/habitus.htm
It's the last one on that page called a house dress - however, it's similar to what the Gypsies are wearing just minus the drape. I doubt that the sleeves are attached to a bodice - they can be pinned to any fabric and often were.
Thank you! You know, that partlet-looking, tucked fabric *could* be what that piece is that I can't figure out what it is. The way it lays on the sleeve is similar to how her arm looks.
Many paintings I've seen *do* show the sleeve "falling" off the chemise sleeve, so maybe that's what's going on with them.
I think this could be what's going on under the blanket, but the bottom seems *awfully* "drape-y." Wood the sleeves be attached to this piece or separate? I've never done Italian Renaissance, so I wouldn't even know where to begin in making this :/ I may stick with the Elizabethan bodice and underskirt idea and make the sleeves simply for my own sanity of not having to learn a new region. I can rationalize it with the other paintings ;)
Quote from: Ser Niall on August 24, 2012, 10:13:24 AM
The guys outfit is pretty interesting in that painting as well. Are those slashed hose, and is he pulling the bottom part of the orange shirt through the slashes?
It probably is not his shirt - think of how annoying that would be to move around and then have to pull the fabric through the slashes at almost ever single move. I'd be dollars to donughts that it is attatched to the hose themselves - like a double layer of cloth, one of them made to pull through the slashes.
So, check this out: I found this tapestry with a Roma couple in the front bottom left. The woman appears to be wearing a *kirtle* in a print fabric. Isabella, what is your interpretation? It appears to be Tudor era to me. A kirtle with attached sleeves and a high-necked smock underneath would explain the dress in the Spada painting.
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g321/TheWickedvox/Roma%20outfit%20research/VisitingGypsiesTapestry.jpg)
Opinions?
There are examples of gypsies wearing the local outfits, however the tapestry in question is from a good 100 years earlier. The gypsy dress didn't vary as much as the regional dress over that time. Think of it as how we think of American Indian dress today - it doesn't change as quickly over time as European fashion does.
Although this is an Italian example, you can see what looks like a chemise over an underdress - with a dress on top of that: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/bassano1540s.jpg (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/bassano1540s.jpg)
There are a few others in that example in the later part of the 16th C - a dress, a chemise looking garment, and another dress. My guess is the gypsies just didn't wear the overdress. They might have not bothered with the underdress either. You can read a bit more here: http://buttery.org/marian/Gypsy_dress/drape_main.htm (http://buttery.org/marian/Gypsy_dress/drape_main.htm)
Notice that the sleeve is in the original painting is gathered at the cuff and at the top with a bit of trim. Also notice that the "tie" on the sleeve is the same colors as some sort of scarf around her neck. You might want to look more into that and look at various styles contemporaneous to the painting and see if you find something similar.
Yes! I *love* that woman's research paper--that's what I'll be basing my blanket from.
I see what you're saying, and I trust that you know better than I the time frame for that tapestry.
I believe there are multiple possible interpretations for what a Roma would've worn under their blanket, like you said, hand me downs are period ;) I've found examples of sleeves matching bodices *and* skirts, sleeves matching skirts but not bodices, and completely mismatched outfits in a few different paintings. This one piqued my interest as it appears everything matches (you can see the skirt peeking out the bottom left side of her blanket):
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g321/TheWickedvox/Romainredsleeves.jpg)
But in the Spada painting, the sleeves seem obviously different material from the skirt, but of a similar color. I've never seen a sleeve with that kind--or *wide*--of trim at the top either, so it should be interesting to see how I butcher that particular piece lol! Also, her collar is throwing me a curve; I thought at first it was blackwork or embroidery, but the closer I look it almost appears to be some kind of applique like a wide ribbon trim ??? If I can't find something to replicate it, I'm going to have to hire someone to do that for me because I have very little embroidery experience and *no* blackwork experience.
Gah! I have to get this out of my head--school starts tomorrow!! :o
http://www.sabercultural.com/template/pinacoteca/SalaGrena41.html (http://www.sabercultural.com/template/pinacoteca/SalaGrena41.html)
Scroll down for the bigger picture. ;D
Holy cow that's a huge picture!! I *really* like the first painting ("Judith"), oh my goodness that outfit is gorgeous!
In the big piture ("Fundo Musicale?") I'm drawn to the woman in the right bottom corner--red kirtle, brown overskirt--love it! I like the examples of men's clothing too. It says 1810--that's late Colonial isn't it??
P.S. You're not helping me get this out of my head, you're enabling. ;)
I can't figure out what the theme of that website is--quite a mix of things shown there! Judith is frequently shown in glorious fantasy-type garb (this (http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/17480040/316755357.jpg) is also a portrait of Judith, altho' why I cut her head off, I can't remember! And not Judith but Salome (http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/17480040/403435782.jpg), but you can see a similar sort of over-the-top ensemble that doesn't seem to reflect actual fashion. The companion painting of Judith is posted in the Sleeve Eye Candy thread.)
For your Roma garb, I'd narrow things down by paying close attention to the era and region of the inspiration images--Caravaggio, for example, is 1600s Italian, and would be quite different than that 1400s tapestry.
Wow, those are both quite racy for their time! :o
Agreed, that's why I was leaning more towards Roma in England--I can do English peasant lol! But, as Isabella pointed out, the Spada painting is Italian (I think she's right about that under-dress) and I don't know if I'm up to learning a whole different region. :-\ I can still do it, I'll just have to abandon a repro of the Spada gypsy, which I *really* don't want to do because it's *so* very pretty. I still feel the skirt could be interpreted as just a basic Ren skirt, but that sleeve scares the crap out of me; and I believe that chemise has a yoke with blackwork on it (along the top of the shoulder down to the sleeve), which I *really* can't do. And I'm convinced the outside of the collar is a completely different fabric, it's not embroidered, but I can't figure out *what* it's made of!! I'm driving myself crazy!
Focus. School.
The gypsies had only *just* entered Scotland by the 16th C and I think that was pretty late. They were well known in Italy by that same point - hence the amount of paintings on Gypsies by Italian artists. The more I look at the upper shoulder/arm of that orange fabric and what looks like a separate black and white tie, the more I think what we are really seeing is the orange fabric being sewn together with a lace insertion and there is just a black undergarment beneath that for contrast.
Quote from: Wickedvox on August 24, 2012, 01:38:18 PM
Does anyone think the man behind him may be a male gypsy, distracting the mark from the child picking his pocket?? I need to figure out how to dress my husband to be my counterpart and am seeing very few examples. I'm going to investigate the paintings more closely.
I think he's saying "Keep an eye on them, they could be thieves." ;D
Quote from: Wickedvox on August 28, 2012, 04:35:26 PM
Agreed, that's why I was leaning more towards Roma in England--I can do English peasant lol! But, as Isabella pointed out, the Spada painting is Italian (I think she's right about that under-dress) and I don't know if I'm up to learning a whole different region. :-\ I can still do it, I'll just have to abandon a repro of the Spada gypsy, which I *really* don't want to do because it's *so* very pretty. I still feel the skirt could be interpreted as just a basic Ren skirt, but that sleeve scares the crap out of me; and I believe that chemise has a yoke with blackwork on it (along the top of the shoulder down to the sleeve), which I *really* can't do. And I'm convinced the outside of the collar is a completely different fabric, it's not embroidered, but I can't figure out *what* it's made of!! I'm driving myself crazy!
The gypsies would adopt clothing styles (hand me downs, etc.) from whatever region they were traveling in. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't have several different styles in the clothing they wore. If they really liked something, even if it was from a different region or fashion period they probably would have worn it anyway. They were already outcasts so why not! lol
My Roma character has history in France but now lives in Scotland, her father is English, and is married to a Scotsman privateer. She journey's with him on his sea travels. So I am basically a Roma pirate! I like the idea of having the options. ;)
Quote from: isabelladangelo on August 28, 2012, 06:59:34 PM
The gypsies had only *just* entered Scotland by the 16th C and I think that was pretty late. They were well known in Italy by that same point - hence the amount of paintings on Gypsies by Italian artists. The more I look at the upper shoulder/arm of that orange fabric and what looks like a separate black and white tie, the more I think what we are really seeing is the orange fabric being sewn together with a lace insertion and there is just a black undergarment beneath that for contrast.
I think I'm going to have to do some Italian research :-\ Not sure how I feel about that. Although, I do think what you said earlier about fashion changing slowly (with the tapestry) can support an English Roma rationale, I know it can't support the Spada painting.
I'm trying to picture what you mean, but it's not coming together. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying the edges of the blanket are sewn together by a lace insertion--I'm not so sure about that, I haven't seen any examples of blankets being *sewn* at the shoulder. Can you give me an example?
Dinobabe--That could be! Perspective is everything!
I'm not going to create an extensive back-story for my piece, but that's very creative of you! :D
I'm starting to put 2+2 together and get 5 lol. I found some examples post-dating 1610 by about 20-30 years of Italian dress and I have some ideas. Could the Spada painting woman be wearing a simple gamurra with a ginorea over it and *that* would explain the shoulder decoration? If so, why can't it be seen at floor level? Option 2: Is it the Italian version of a partlet over a standard camicia under a gamurra with attached sleeves? Here's some more eye-candy:
look how the giornea lies on her shoulder:
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g321/TheWickedvox/Roma%20outfit%20research/ghirlandaio2.jpg)
check out the puffy sleeve attached to the gamurra, that could be that wierd trim at the top of the sleeve:
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g321/TheWickedvox/Roma%20outfit%20research/gamurra-bacchiacca-1520.jpg)
*this* I think could be a perfect example of what's going on up top, right up to the collar:
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g321/TheWickedvox/Roma%20outfit%20research/LauraDaPola.jpg)
and Isabella, I think this may have been what you were hinting at earlier--it looks like a decoritive, stretch, *mesh* bodice cover--I've *never* seen that before!
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g321/TheWickedvox/Roma%20outfit%20research/Venschunknown--meshnetingoverbodice.jpg)
This I think is the coup de grace for the case of camicia, gamurra, and partlet argument:
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g321/TheWickedvox/Roma%20outfit%20research/ven14.jpg)
Okay, lay it on me, what say you??
All of those are a lot earlier than 20+/- 1614. The first one is about 1490, I think, and the last one is 1530's/40's.
First, Italian research sites:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/ (http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/)
http://aneafiles.webs.com/articles.html (http://aneafiles.webs.com/articles.html)
Both focus on the 16th c. The sleeves in the painting are very much 17th c (to the point I think it might even be later than the 1610's date.) However, it might help.
Lace insertion:
http://daughterofthebull.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html (http://daughterofthebull.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html)
I think that we are seeing a seam with lace in it. Don't forget, this could be one of those "The artist thought this would look cool and it's totally fantastical" things. There are a lot.
That being said, I'm going to say that what we are seeing with those orange and black bands on what looks to be flimsy fabric is not a skirt - but an apron. This makes a lot of sense when you start looking outside of Italy to Greece or any of the islands and what they were wearing. Add this with the loose dress I posted earlier and this starts to look reasonable. Do you have the book Clothing of the Renaissance World? It's big and not cheap but it well worth it for research.
I found something that made me change my mind a bit. This is what I believe she is wearing beneath the drape:
http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/271938/Greek-School-17th-century/Female-costume-from-Kriti?search_context={%22url%22%3A%22\%2Fsearch\%2Fartist\%2FGreek-School-17th-century\%2F7061%3Flang%3Den-US%22%2C%22num_results%22%3A%2214%22%2C%22search_type%22%3A%22creator_assets%22%2C%22creator_id%22%3A%227061%22%2C%22item_index%22%3A9} (http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/271938/Greek-School-17th-century/Female-costume-from-Kriti?search_context=%7B%22url%22%3A%22%5C%2Fsearch%5C%2Fartist%5C%2FGreek-School-17th-century%5C%2F7061%3Flang%3Den-US%22%2C%22num_results%22%3A%2214%22%2C%22search_type%22%3A%22creator_assets%22%2C%22creator_id%22%3A%227061%22%2C%22item_index%22%3A9%7D)
This is a gorgeous example of 17th C Greek dress. Although the embroidery and colors changed over time, the basic styling did not for a very long time in Eastern Europe (I've seen evidence for similar styles from Russia all the way down to Greece). The black & white are the straps, the flimsy stuff is the overdress, and the underdress is the Indian print orange. The Roma came through Greece in the 14th C (I think it was about then) a few hundred years after their diaspora from India (10th C?). Although the regions did affect their clothing choices a bit, there is also a reason we can easily identify who is Roma and who isn't in these paintings. ;-) We know that many contemporary writers (16th C, Italian) commented that the ladies went around in their chemises or wore a loose gown - which is exactly what the Greek dress looks like.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on August 30, 2012, 12:40:50 AM
All of those are a lot earlier than 20+/- 1614. The first one is about 1490, I think, and the last one is 1530's/40's.
First, Italian research sites:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/ (http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/)
http://aneafiles.webs.com/articles.html (http://aneafiles.webs.com/articles.html)
Both focus on the 16th c. The sleeves in the painting are very much 17th c (to the point I think it might even be later than the 1610's date.) However, it might help.
Lace insertion:
http://daughterofthebull.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html (http://daughterofthebull.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html)
I think that we are seeing a seam with lace in it. Don't forget, this could be one of those "The artist thought this would look cool and it's totally fantastical" things. There are a lot.
That being said, I'm going to say that what we are seeing with those orange and black bands on what looks to be flimsy fabric is not a skirt - but an apron. This makes a lot of sense when you start looking outside of Italy to Greece or any of the islands and what they were wearing. Add this with the loose dress I posted earlier and this starts to look reasonable. Do you have the book Clothing of the Renaissance World? It's big and not cheap but it well worth it for research.
BAAAH! I thought I got it right this time >:( I got most of those pics from realm of venus, they were in the 1540-69 range; I thought I included the one from 1590-1610 too, but I didn't.
Of course I know our own Anea's site ;) She's so amazing.
So what is that piece called that's like a partlet?
Ahhhhh...I see what you're saying about the skirt. I've never seen an apron with guards ??? But again, you probably know better than I.
I don't have that book, I'll see if I can find it at one of our local libraries.
I suppose it *can* be a lace insertion, but I don't want it to be :P I don't think I'll even have the research on this done before next summer, let alone the outfit :-\ WIP I guess.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on August 30, 2012, 06:15:16 AM
I found something that made me change my mind a bit. This is what I believe she is wearing beneath the drape:
http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/271938/Greek-School-17th-century/Female-costume-from-Kriti?search_context={%22url%22%3A%22\%2Fsearch\%2Fartist\%2FGreek-School-17th-century\%2F7061%3Flang%3Den-US%22%2C%22num_results%22%3A%2214%22%2C%22search_type%22%3A%22creator_assets%22%2C%22creator_id%22%3A%227061%22%2C%22item_index%22%3A9} (http://www.bridgemanart.com/asset/271938/Greek-School-17th-century/Female-costume-from-Kriti?search_context=%7B%22url%22%3A%22%5C%2Fsearch%5C%2Fartist%5C%2FGreek-School-17th-century%5C%2F7061%3Flang%3Den-US%22%2C%22num_results%22%3A%2214%22%2C%22search_type%22%3A%22creator_assets%22%2C%22creator_id%22%3A%227061%22%2C%22item_index%22%3A9%7D)
This is a gorgeous example of 17th C Greek dress. Although the embroidery and colors changed over time, the basic styling did not for a very long time in Eastern Europe (I've seen evidence for similar styles from Russia all the way down to Greece). The black & white are the straps, the flimsy stuff is the overdress, and the underdress is the Indian print orange. The Roma came through Greece in the 14th C (I think it was about then) a few hundred years after their diaspora from India (10th C?). Although the regions did affect their clothing choices a bit, there is also a reason we can easily identify who is Roma and who isn't in these paintings. ;-) We know that many contemporary writers (16th C, Italian) commented that the ladies went around in their chemises or wore a loose gown - which is exactly what the Greek dress looks like.
That *is* interesting, isn't it? I'll have to download that pic and take a better look at it. You think those sleeves could fit under the poofy sleeves? Or do you think it *is* those sleeves? I often wonder how the Indian origins influence that outfit, and that could be it!
I was looking at Anea's articles and the pics of extant camicias; do you think those heavily embroidered sleeves--the way they're set into the camicia forms the shoulder and goes up to the collar--could be a simple explanation as to that decoration I can't figure out? It almost seemed like a "duh!" moment when I looked at it lol, but mayhaps it's not so simple :-\
You are helping me *so* much Isabella, I'd send you chocolates if I knew your address lol! Thanks again for the time and energy you're putting into this just to help lil' ol' me ;D
Check *this* out!
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2007/Bess-Partlet.jpg (http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2007/Bess-Partlet.jpg)
It's got the similar collar to my gypsy, the lace insertion you were talking about, *and* it's a partlet. It was done by Bess Chivers and is based on a painting of Eleanora de Toledo time period 1580's-90's. What do you think of the idea? I'd have to buy the insertion and attach it to fabric--I have no skills to create it.
:-) I like helping with researching. I'm traveling right now so I won't be able to do quite as much for a couple of weeks. My thoughts are that the sleeves are a seperate sleeve that just go over the chemise sleeve of the Greek dress - just like they would in an Italian style. The sleeve ties to the strap of the overdress, which is why we see that black and white "stripe" go up the shoulder to the strap. I thought the Greek dress was terribly interesting and it would explain a lot about what we are seeing in the painting.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on September 03, 2012, 06:09:40 PM
:-) I like helping with researching. I'm traveling right now so I won't be able to do quite as much for a couple of weeks. My thoughts are that the sleeves are a seperate sleeve that just go over the chemise sleeve of the Greek dress - just like they would in an Italian style. The sleeve ties to the strap of the overdress, which is why we see that black and white "stripe" go up the shoulder to the strap. I thought the Greek dress was terribly interesting and it would explain a lot about what we are seeing in the painting.
Yeah, school is going to kick my butt the next few weeks, so me too.
Yeah, for sure, separate sleeves. I'm just not sure what I think about those straps. I like how the bottom falls, and them hem length. Hmmm...I must ponder. I wish I had a color printer so I can print this stuff out and compare and compile.
And I can't figure out how to register with the site--provided non-academics can--ergo I can't get a *really* good download to zoom in on. Is the yoke smocked?? Is it gathered or cartridge pleated to the yoke?
Ok, two quick things:
1.) To enlarge the image: Hit Ctl and + simultaneously, and everything on the screen will get larger. Keep going until the picture is big enough. Then just do a screen grab. If you have Windows 7, you have a tool called "Snip" that makes this easy.
2. Color printer! Our color printer is a fantastic Canon inkjet that we bought at Walmart for $35! Yes, thirty-five! Not only was it ridiculously affordable, it's the best color printer we've had in about 10 years.
There. All your problems solved. ;D LOL
Quote from: gem on September 03, 2012, 10:29:19 PM
Ok, two quick things:
1.) To enlarge the image: Hit Ctl and + simultaneously, and everything on the screen will get larger. Keep going until the picture is big enough. Then just do a screen grab. If you have Windows 7, you have a tool called "Snip" that makes this easy.
2. Color printer! Our color printer is a fantastic Canon inkjet that we bought at Walmart for $35! Yes, thirty-five! Not only was it ridiculously affordable, it's the best color printer we've had in about 10 years.
There. All your problems solved. ;D LOL
BRILLIANT! Gem you can't ever leave my life, I'd be lost and *really* irritable* without you around.
Do you think this chemise is made like the Italian camicia, in that the sleeves are gathered into the collar?
(http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g321/TheWickedvox/Roma%20outfit%20research/caravaggio.jpg)
I'm pretty sure this is what I'll use if that's how it's constructed, because then I can embroider the sleeves to get that patterned look on the shoulders *and* reconstruct that collar.
Yes, looks like it...
It'll be lovely.