Hello! I am finding myself in need of help.
I want to put together an Irish Lady ensemble (preferably of the upper end of society). I have found some ideas online.
However, none of them appear to include a corset (over or under). I would prefer to incorporate a corset into my garb because I have back issues and the corset is very wonderful for that.
Would anyone have some references for Irish Lady garb, and/ or ideas on how to incorporate a corset into it?
I don't see why you can't wear a corset under your clothing...It is underwear after all. ;)
I'm assuming you have one; try it on over your chemise, then the dress over that. If the cut/color shows you may want to get an under-bust or a strapless version from where ever you buy yours.
Corset connection is a very inexpensive source-I have a Victorian front closure corset which I picked up for about $50.00.
I have a nice Irish dress in blue twill with over sleeves, and a red velvet sleeveless dress- both lace in front and have a split skirt, which I wear with a petticoat and no farthingale. I also have a white cotton leine with lacing from shoulder to wrist to lengthen and shorten the sleeves. Merchant class Irish would probably wear something like that. The above will easily accommodate a corset without showing, if laced fully closed.
Nobles would follow the European styles. Really depends on the year you are trying for.
I know this isn't considered the upper end of society, but have you considered an Irish over dress? I have one with a boned bodice and it gives me great support. I cannot think of where I purchased it, but I was able to choose the fabric, color, and grommet style.
Gina
Well, the corset wasn't invented until the 1820's. Before that, stays were used....and the Irish, based upon contemporary accounts, didn't use stays (A pair of bodies) at all.
The Irish were an island on to themselves and rarely followed fashion until the 17th C - even then, they were behind. What an Irish woman really wore looked like this:
(http://celticmythpodshow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Femme_et_Fille_Irlandoises_by_Lucas_de_Heere_ca._1570.jpg)
Or this (Shinrone Dress):
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/2d2/423/2d242356-7740-4d5c-9654-d4d4fd4d5af4)
I actually have seen the Shinrone Dress in person and have notes *somewhere* on it. The pleats at the waist line are very slight and look like they were meant to give the front of the dress a more angled waistline.
The dresses would have been tight around the torso to give enough lift. They may have also still been wearing the medieval bras (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/18/medieval-bras-discovered-austrian-castle) in the 16th century.
But no, corsets were never worn by the Irish until the 19th Century and the idea of wearing them as a fashion thing is all thanks to Madonna in the 1980's.
After some thought, I remembered that I purchased the Irish over dress from Crimson Gypsy Designs.
Gina
http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/0A4_Grace_Elizabeth.pdf (http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/0A4_Grace_Elizabeth.pdf)
The article in the link is about Grace O'Malley - the pirate Queen of Ireland who did meet QEI. At the meeting, she wore a green cloak and a bodiced petticoat of yellow - the traditional colors of Ireland. Ignore the second woodcut - it's from the late 18th C and I have no idea why the author threw it in there (it shows what was being worn in the 1790's!) however the last picture is very telling. The lady is from 1616 but wearing fashions that were popular a good 30 years earlier in both England and the continent (mainland Europe). This was common in Ireland until the mid 17th C when they started to catch up fashion wise.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on August 16, 2013, 12:46:04 PM
http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/0A4_Grace_Elizabeth.pdf (http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/0A4_Grace_Elizabeth.pdf)
The article in the link is about Grace O'Malley - the pirate Queen of Ireland who did meet QEI. At the meeting, she wore a green cloak and a bodiced petticoat of yellow - the traditional colors of Ireland. Ignore the second woodcut - it's from the late 18th C and I have no idea why the author threw it in there (it shows what was being worn in the 1790's!) however the last picture is very telling. The lady is from 1616 but wearing fashions that were popular a good 30 years earlier in both England and the continent (mainland Europe). This was common in Ireland until the mid 17th C when they started to catch up fashion wise.
this is a great resource. Thank you
Quote from: isabelladangelo on August 16, 2013, 11:30:58 AM
Well, the corset wasn't invented until the 1820's. Before that, stays were used....and the Irish, based upon contemporary accounts, didn't use stays (A pair of bodies) at all.
The Irish were an island on to themselves and rarely followed fashion until the 17th C - even then, they were behind. What an Irish woman really wore looked like this:
(http://celticmythpodshow.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/Femme_et_Fille_Irlandoises_by_Lucas_de_Heere_ca._1570.jpg)
Or this (Shinrone Dress):
(http://images.tribe.net/tribe/upload/photo/2d2/423/2d242356-7740-4d5c-9654-d4d4fd4d5af4)
I actually have seen the Shinrone Dress in person and have notes *somewhere* on it. The pleats at the waist line are very slight and look like they were meant to give the front of the dress a more angled waistline.
The dresses would have been tight around the torso to give enough lift. They may have also still been wearing the medieval bras (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jul/18/medieval-bras-discovered-austrian-castle) in the 16th century.
But no, corsets were never worn by the Irish until the 19th Century and the idea of wearing them as a fashion thing is all thanks to Madonna in the 1980's.
What class would have worn the Shinrone Dress, do you know?
Given the materials, most likely a middle class/upper middle class lady. A more noble woman would have worn velvet or damask but probably in a very similar style.
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/263_28492501279_1065_n.jpg)
Green Brocade Irish Dress with detachable sleeves
(https://sphotos-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/4748_1098109455360_3190672_n.jpg)
Lady Renee Buchannan's Irish Dress done in Velveteen.
Both Irish dresses have boned bodices. Can be dressed up or down. Worn with a Celtic styled Chemise or whatever chemise style suits the wearer.
The "Irish Dress" you see ladies wearing at the Renn Fest and a few of the ladies have posted here are not what the Irish actually wore. The dresses tend to be fantastical and not based on any of the period gowns - not that there weren't open front dresses - the Italians had them- just not in the bodice cut styles you typically see being called "Irish Dress". It's okay if you go that way - but just know they aren't actually accurate for the Irish.
Mine are like Lady Kathleen's and Renee's. I don't call it Scottish or Irish, just 'Celtic' if I am even asked.
My blue twill 'Irish' dress has split sleeves to the wrist, no shoulder treatment and no trim. The bodice is lightly boned and I don't wear any stays under it. If you need stays or a corset for comfort, and you are not concerned with HA, just do it. You can't enjoy faire if you are in pain.
I think the reason most folks at a renaissance faire don't choose Irish when they try to dress Celtic HA, is probably because of the reason Isabella stated: "The Irish were an island on to themselves and rarely followed fashion until the 17th C - even then, they were behind."
They were on the plain side, and to our modern eyes; boring.
The majority of us don't go to a renaissance faire to look boring. That's why we have Pirates, fairies and elves. Fantasy is fun.
Hubby and I have both done and still do the HA thing, and really like it; however, unless we are part of a historical encampment-we don't prefer to do it at a renaissance faire. This is just our preference.
In our minds, faire and HA are as different as Disneyland and Living History Farms. If I want to do HA, I will go someplace with like minded people where HA is recognized.
When I do dress middle, peasant class for faire- I do it because of comfort.
I wanted to start H/A and then go from there. I think I figured out what I will do. I just need to save up.
My plan is to do the Shinrone dress but with the fabrics the English would wear to court.
Since I'm saving up first, I will have time to figure out the best way to incorporate a corset for my back. I will probably just do an under bust underneath so it will be unseen. I will talk it over with my seamstress friend when we start working on it.
Thank you for all if your help everyone!
The Irish were hardly boring in fashion. The great Irish Liene -their smocks- were something to look at. The long flowing sleeves could be in either plain linen or bright saffron yellow - they were one of the few that actually did have dyed smocks!
H/A is hardly boring either. The reason I believe many faires give up on H/A and go on to romanticize thieves & rapists (Pirates) or have "magical" elves is because of far too many people in our modern world simply do not want to do the research to figure out what was worn and when. We are a lazy bunch of couch potatoes after all. ;-) Rather than going to a museum, even a virtual one, and look at the portraits from a specific time period, people want to play pretty pretty princess with no thought to what the Renaissance really was.
The Renaissance was a rebirth of classical culture- it was about bringing back the arts and science of the ancient world and reapplying them to the then modern world. It began only a few decades after the Black Plague in which a huge portion of the European population was killed off. It was due to this mass death that people started an increase in trade, an increase in food production, and - once the printing press came about- and increase in sharing information. We are still reeling from the after effects of the Renaissance in many ways. To that end, I believe we should pay homage to our ancestors and learn as much about how they lived - including how they dressed.
Fashion is a physical manifestation not only of status but of what technology and trade routes were available. It is through fashion we can learn a great deal about the people wearing that garment - what dyes were available means what plants were available. It gives insight into who was trading with who. Based on the status of the person, it also indicates whether the dye was common or exclusive. Similar extrapolations can be brought out by the weave of the fabric, the prints of the fabric, the cut of the fabric, ect.
I've read many times on these boards that "fantasy is fun!" while h/a is made out not to be. Honesty, it's insulting not only to the people who strive to do h/a but also to the people that don't. Learning about history and about the past is fun. Attempting to recreate the past - minus the plague, please- helps bring greater understanding of how things work and where we have come from. Fantasy - if done well- can teach you techniques regarding sewing and make up skills - but it can't teach you about how your ancestors actually lived or anything close to what their lives were like. We should all strive to learn more about the past each day as the saying "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" is very very true.