Hey. So I have this doublet (http://fairefinery.com/mens-doublets/the-lapis-doublet/) with an off-white shirt underneath. For several seasons I've been wearing just a pair of plain black pants and a pair of these SCA Boots (http://www.scaboots.com/Mens-Sir-Henry-Leather-Thigh-and-Knee-Boots_p_1.html). It's fine, I guess, but I'm wondering if I could do a little better. Something slightly more historically accurate would be nice, or even just something that comes together a little better. Anyone have advice on this?
(http://elizabethan-portraits.com/Tailor.jpg)
(http://elizabethan-portraits.com/UnknownMan24.jpg)
The slashed britches or pumpkin pants were what was worn with a doublet in that cut, normally.
Hmm, interesting. And then below the pants, would the bottom of the pants go right into my boots? Or should I get tights and low shoes?
If you are going for H/A, you need low shoes. Although boots were worn, they weren't common. Search for the Mary Rose - an English ship that wrecked in 1545- to see extant examples of men's shoes. They are all pretty basic leather slip on shoes. Those with some hosen (thigh highs) and the pumpkin pants would be h/a.
That being said, the doublet itself isn't h/a. Most doublets were button front. The few I've seen that do lace up the front tend to be leather. Grommets were never used until 1826. So, If you want to start going more h/a, great! However, keep in mind that you'll need to upgrade the doublet too at some point. ;) For now, you can cover the grommets with buttons and still lace up the front, a la this extant doublet's upper part:
(http://farm2.staticflickr.com/1295/807992653_2fa8c199ca.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mharrsch/807992653/)
Fencing Doublet featuring a protruding peascod waist Western European about 1580 CE Leather silk linen cotton (http://www.flickr.com/photos/mharrsch/807992653/#) by mharrsch (http://www.flickr.com/people/mharrsch/), on Flickr
I was pretty sure it wasn't HA, but that's totally fine by me - I'm not trying to get into SCA or anything. Really I'm just aiming for something that's not totally inaccurate. It seems like paned slops are generally more accurate than just regular black pants, and then stockings and then low shoes are more accurate than boots. Is that right? If so, I've got a bit of searching to do.
Yes, exactly. Like I said, boots were worn but they were worn like this:
(http://www.lib-art.com/imgpainting/0/4/14640-portrait-of-philip-ii-in-armour-anthonis-mor-van-dashorst.jpg)
Notice that he's wearing thigh highs (hosen) and the boots are buttoned to the pants. Not quite like the boots you typically see at faire. ;D
So, low shoes are more common.
But the boots are a much more attractive look! ;)
And I'm not sure exactly what anyone was thinking when they designed that whole "pumpkin pants" look. Seriously... who wants their nethers to look like a pumpkin, of all things? :o
Ha! The same guys who wanted their waistlines to look like peapods (see Isabella's peascod-belly doublet photo, above)! And I'm sure that in another 500 years, 21st century re-enactors will be wondering why women would want legs that looked like cigarettes (http://shop.nordstrom.com/sr?origin=keywordsearch&contextualcategoryid=2375500&keyword=cigarette+pants)!
***
Chuck, you should definitely check out this thread (http://www.renaissancefestival.com/forums/index.php/topic,20110.0.html) in the sewing forum for more ideas. :)
I'm wondering if part of the issue may be that the doublet is dark blue and the pants are black--which is one of those supposed modern "fashion don't"s. If the pants are plain black cotton, like the ones my FIL wears (http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/24182181/403876817.jpg), I can see why you'd want to upgrade. If you don't want to go totally H/A, but still want something in a more formal vein like the doublet, try a different fabric. Black velvet or velveteen might be a nice complement. If you're feeling bold, you could try a cranberry or camel to pull out the accent colors. Milord's favorite pants (http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/10747433/398181815.jpg) are a basic "puffy Renfair pants" style, but they're made of an interesting multi-wale corduroy that gives them just enough interest to stand out, but not compete with a more noble impression. (These are actually the exact same pants (http://picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/10747433), but you can see the different fabric gives a totally different look.) It's definitely more of the Fairwear-noble look, not a historically accurate impression, but it's what Milord likes. (shrug)
(BTW, I believe that that fabric is the blue version of this (http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/24167320/403582425.jpg), which I used for my new bodice (http://elizabethcbunce.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/black-bodice-closeup-e1378815920138.jpg?w=750&h=981). If you want more, they carry it at JoAnn!)
LOL Perhaps by then no one will remember what cigarettes were! I can't imagine my legs ever looking like that! Well, not unless most of them were removed, anyway... heheh
I do admit to being quite flummoxed by many of today's fashion choices, also! :D
Well not all of them were pumpkin shaped. circa 1542 Vienna
(http://www.cfa.ilstu.edu/lmlowel/the331/images/Renaissance/Northern/1542Vienna.jpg)
Quote from: gem on October 07, 2013, 02:37:40 AM
I'm wondering if part of the issue may be that the doublet is dark blue and the pants are black--which is one of those supposed modern "fashion don't"s. If the pants are plain black cotton, like the ones my FIL wears (http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/24182181/403876817.jpg), I can see why you'd want to upgrade. If you don't want to go totally H/A, but still want something in a more formal vein like the doublet, try a different fabric. Black velvet or velveteen might be a nice complement. If you're feeling bold, you could try a cranberry or camel to pull out the accent colors. Milord's favorite pants (http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/10747433/398181815.jpg) are a basic "puffy Renfair pants" style, but they're made of an interesting multi-wale corduroy that gives them just enough interest to stand out, but not compete with a more noble impression. (These are actually the exact same pants (http://picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/10747433), but you can see the different fabric gives a totally different look.) It's definitely more of the Fairwear-noble look, not a historically accurate impression, but it's what Milord likes. (shrug)
(BTW, I believe that that fabric is the blue version of this (http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL417/1033223/24167320/403582425.jpg), which I used for my new bodice (http://elizabethcbunce.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/black-bodice-closeup-e1378815920138.jpg?w=750&h=981). If you want more, they carry it at JoAnn!)
First - the fabric I have does seem to resemble that, though I was told the fabric came from elsewhere. Do you have a link to the listing on JoAnn's site?
As to the pants: I actually tuck them in the whole way so they look more like slightly baggy tights. The puffy renpants aren't a bad idea. Side note - I didn't think that blue and black was totally out right now, so I think I need to re-evaluate my civvies..
Anyway, I'm starting to think if something like these (http://www.moresca.com/images/swatches/Tudor-slops-02.jpg) - that is, a tan/beige to match the accents on the doublet - would work.
Possibly, its hard to see the actual color of the Moresca pants, though that might be my monitor.
Digging this one up. Anyone have a recommendation on where to buy Tudor slops? Aside from the pair at Moresca I found, I also found a guy on Etsy who will make them. Are there other vendors out there that I just can't find?
I can wholeheartedly recommend these people.
http://www.skyridgedesigns.com/ (http://www.skyridgedesigns.com/)
They will work with you on design and price. They have made costumes for many cast members.
Dredging this topic up from the depths because I have an update, and need a bit more advice.
I ended up working with Pendragon Costumes to get a pair of panes and pants made. They're awesome to work with, by the way - really helpful and went totally out of their way to help match the fabrics. I put them on the other night with the rest of my stuff, and the result is the picture below. I think they look good, but something's not right. Should I be wearing hose and low shoes with these instead of the boots? There's quite a bit of space between the panes and the pants; any recommendations on how to fill them out, or how to tie the bottoms so they work better?
(http://i.imgur.com/xZ8dcKS.jpg)
The boots look OK to me; everyone that I know wears at least knee high boots with their slops.
As for the panes....They look a bit narrow to me; or those are some large gaps.
I'm used to seeing the panes at least 3" wide and placed right next to each other. The idea is to have the contrasting lining 'flash' when the wearer moves, but stay mostly hidden the rest of the time.
To fill out the lining: Do your slops have an inner lining, one that fits closer to your thigh? If so, you can make a small slit in that to gain access to the space between the inner and outer lining. Fill to desired puffiness with tulle (the tutu stuff) that is the coolest filling I can think of.
Low shoes, yes!
To my eye, it looks like the panes are much bigger than the pants (the tan material). The tan material should be so bunchy that it sticks through the panes. It isn't. I'd either tighten up the panes (cut them and reconnect the pants cuffs) or sew in some more material between the panes. If you tighten them up, you'll get a more 1570's look.
I guess this should be clarified: the way Pendragon makes their stuff now, they make separate panes and pants (so the pants underneath are washable). The tradeoff, then, is that they're not at all H/A or anything, and they're not Tudor slops per se. The exact product they make is listed here on their site (https://pendragoncostumes.squarespace.com/mens-shirts-pants/ital-pants). I guess based on the images on their site, these are close to what they're aiming for.
The pants aren't lined, no. I suppose I could just put them on and fill with tulle, though that might be itchy. Hmm..
Quote from: theChuck on April 01, 2014, 10:45:06 PM
I suppose I could just put them on and fill with tulle, though that might be itchy. Hmm..
Not if you wear tights. ;)
I'd get a much puffer pair of not so underpants/slops then. Or still, just cut down the panes and reattach the cuffs.
Hmmmm, those pictures explain a lot.
These are not slops; so for a lack of a better word-I will christen them 'over panes'
Whatever, the panes are still too narrow, and too long for your needs.
Try pinning them up a couple of inches (like at the waist band) to take in the slack, then trying them back on over your pants.
If you like what you see then (if you're handy with a needle) make a permanent alteration.
Pendragon, like Moresca, seem to specialize in Renaissance inspired fashions in stead of HA.
So..you get what you get.
Quote from: Rowen MacD on April 02, 2014, 05:31:23 PM
These are not slops; so for a lack of a better word-I will christen them 'over panes'
Pendragon, like Moresca, seem to specialize in Renaissance inspired fashions in stead of HA.
Yeah, I guess that's the lesson here. My doublet isn't really HA either, though. I'm less concerned with HA per se and just making sure that I don't look ridiculous.
But based on everyone's advice, I'm going to try to find a solution to work with what I've got.
I think you can just shorten the panes and be done with it, It should look fine ;D
Now you get to learn how to negotiate your surroundings without snagging those loops on everything (table corners, bench edges,other people's swords...). After a day of wearing them, you may opt for just the breeches. :)
good luck!
Quote from: Rowen MacD on April 04, 2014, 09:34:08 AM
I think you can just shorten the panes and be done with it, It should look fine ;D
Now you get to learn how to negotiate your surroundings without snagging those loops on everything (table corners, bench edges,other people's swords...). After a day of wearing them, you may opt for just the breeches. :)
good luck!
Or, once they are shortened, you can stay stitch them to the under trousers/Venetians/ those tan pants so they won't snag. :-)
Do you have a picture of that?
Hubby won't wear his paned slops because of the hassle. Maybe I can help him with it.
Similar to this idea:
http://cerridwencreations.weebly.com/5/post/2012/10/slash-and-puff.html (http://cerridwencreations.weebly.com/5/post/2012/10/slash-and-puff.html)
Rather than create two seperate garments, simply sew down, along the edges, the panes to the puffy under trousers (slops). Have the puffy slops and panes sewn into one cuff for each leg, making it one pair of trousers.
I think that advice (stitching the panes to the breeches) will actually help with making the breeches puff out more, too. I would catch just a few threads of the turned-under/backside of the panes, so the stitches aren't visible from the front. You might have to experiment with placement to get the best look, so try it with pins first.
I think the sewing forum is bleeding into here. My fiancee and I are utterly useless at anything beyond simple fixes to clothing, so I'm not sure how I'd go about shortening the panes. Maybe find a local seamstress or something...
Oh, no--this is TOTALLY simple!
1. Find your needle, some thread, and scissors. And some safety pins.
2. Stand in front of a mirror, wearing the pants.
3. Have your DW carefully arrange and pin the panes to the breeches underneath, until you have a look that's more pleasing. The easiest thing might be to pin in the center of the diamond pattern on the panes.
4. Everywhere there's a pin, take a couple of quick secure stitches through the pane & breeches.
Frankly, I'm not sure there is a solution to this that doesn't involve you getting scissors and needle&thread, but there's nothing here beyond a rank novice. Really. Easy as sewing on a button. Except without the hassle of the button!
Looking at your pictures again, you MAY be able to add stuffing between your thigh and the golden trousers; thereby pushing the golden material out towards the loose panes. Try it with rolled up t-shirts to see if that gives the effect you want.
But Gem is absolutely right! Shortening the panes themselves would be a very easy job! Just as she describes.
Chuck, there are a lot of people who wear Pendragon's stuff at our faire. Yours look the same as the others I've seen people wear, so I don't think there is anything wrong with them, that's just how they make them.
That being said, true paned slops are a single piece of clothing, the panes are not separate from the inner lining. This allows them to be stuffed, which would reduce the gap between the panes on the lining. However, I wouldn't worry about it too much. They still look nice, and there will be many people who will be sporting the same style of Pendragon slops, so you won't be out of place.
If you're worried about the gap, you could probably get Pendragon to shorten the panes a bit. My wife has a dress from them, and they have done repairs on it for free. They usually have to ship it out to California to do this though, so the turn around time might be a few weeks.
Also, if you're good with a needle, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to sew another lining inside of your breeches so that you can stuff them. You might even be able to just pin some stuffing on the inside so that they poof out more.
Quote from: Ser Niall on May 23, 2014, 11:16:58 AM
If you're worried about the gap, you could probably get Pendragon to shorten the panes a bit. My wife has a dress from them, and they have done repairs on it for free. They usually have to ship it out to California to do this though, so the turn around time might be a few weeks.
That's good to know. Might send it to them during the summer (between the spring and fall fairs) to see if they can do that.
Quote from: Ser Niall on May 23, 2014, 11:16:58 AM
Also, if you're good with a needle, it probably wouldn't be too difficult to sew another lining inside of your breeches so that you can stuff them. You might even be able to just pin some stuffing on the inside so that they poof out more.
Rowen MacD recommended tulle as a stuffing material; would you agree, or is there another material you'd think? (Hay or straw is probably going to be less than pleasant.)
Quote from: theChuck on May 24, 2014, 07:40:49 AM
Rowen MacD recommended tulle as a stuffing material; would you agree, or is there another material you'd think? (Hay or straw is probably going to be less than pleasant.)
Yes, tulle is definitely the way to go. It's cheap, light, and holds it's shape. I use it as stuffing for my own slops; I think I used a yard in total (1/2 yard for each leg).
I'll second using the tulle for stuffing because it doesn't make the pants hotter the way that cushion stuffing would.