Once? I had my first gown, it was teal & made from Cotton Twill. I spent 4 months researching, and then with my own 2 hands I created this gown with Spanish sleeves with tons of trim. Not a bit of the fabrics were H/A, but I thought it was awesome...a young woman asked me for a picture and casually mentioned that my outfit was really nifty was it not? This person was a Laurel in the SCA, and remember I never said I word to this person. She told the young lady in no uncertain terms all of the wrongness of my outfit, from the color to the cotton to the trim to the accessories to the hat, how inappropriate it was, how silly I looked in it, and how it did not fit correctly. Then she waltzed away to rain on someone else's parade!
This happened in the past, believe me? The next time this specific lady saw my work? She had nothing to say, in fact she asked me where I had found the fabrics, and when I said I had embroidered them (Machine and Hand with beading) she was able to say "It was a better effort". While I could care less for he need for me to find approval, I do have to say her remarks made me a better costumer/garb maker. It made me strive for H/A and to ask for help in achieving it.
So has anyone else dealt with this sort of thing and how did they handle it?
In fact? Something similar happened recently, I moved to a new section of No Cali, and was in a Joann's and was told to speak with someone who made costumes. Being eager to meet people with the same fetish, I did in fact go up to this lady and state my name, rank and serial number. It did not go well, in fact she was "Faire" and since I mentioned I was "SCA"..... I was informed that the "SCA" has no "Standards". Of course I was Snarky back with "Well I know what we do have, and that is Class" but that was not appropriate for me, I should have taken the moral high ground and just walk away.
So instead, I am making H/A Clothing in the Scottish Motif of the 1560's for my family and I am going to go to the Faires with these pieces. All created by me, it is petty but it is making me work towards a goal I needed to do in order to have what I wanted to have done in time. So I am all for making me goal and focus!!! Yeah Her!
Anyway,
Has someone's Snarkiness helped or hindered you in the past or present? Have you dealt with people who ended up doing better for your Snark?
Cilean
I was going to join my local SCA, but a laurel made a comment, with demeaning laughter about my garb and I just could not join after that. I wanted to, but... It really hurt me. Not that SCA is hurtful, she was. In fact, I didn't wear garb to faire for years because I felt so stupid.
I now strive for the H/A my wardrobe mistress will allow and not worry about being perfect. My character is more important than my clothes. Although, from the looks of my living room you could never tell.
There are good Laurels in the SCA and there are a bad Laurels in the SCA. I've met both. What surprises me the most is that the bad Laurels seem to need constant "See how smart I am?" type of praise whereas the good Laurels simply attempt to help those that want to do better (ie "Have you thought of using this instead?"). The good Laurels aren't about making themselves look good, it's about making others look better.
That being said, I'm snarked all the time. ;) I know perfectly well at least two people snarked me last night and hid their comments behind a cut on their blogs. It doesn't bother me anymore because I know perfectly well that EVERYONE snarks. Ever giggled and said "what is she wearing" while at the mall? Or had to turn your eyes when the overweight hairy guy comes to the beach wearing a speedo? You've snarked then.
Some people actually need to be snarked. I know that sounds terribly wrong, but think of Simon on American Idol. You know that he needs to be snarky to some of those people because they honestly need the bluntness of his remarks. The same goes for any art medium including garb.
Now, does that mean you should go around snarking everyone to their face every single day? Absolutely not. There is no reason to be rude to most people. The average person will get better with help and not with rudeness. However, we all know those "spechul snowflakes" that well, need a Simon. :)
So, some things I've been snarked on: My research on back lacing; research on bodices/skirts as separates (by a Laurel who now completely believes that a pair of bodies and petticoats existed...two years later and claims it was all her own idea...); my Elizabethan doublet (because I said the cut was from Patterns of Fashion, and it was, but since I didn't do the embellishments like Patterns of Fashion, this person thought it was wrong. She got corrected.); and probably a few dozen other things.
If anything, when I get snarked, I tend to go out and look for more images and original documents to prove my point. It might take a while, but it does work.
SNARKING: It's a behavior that says MUCH more about a person's unpleasant character than their ability to create historically accurate clothing.
WHAT DO YOU DO ABOUT IT? Ignore it and feel sorry for the people who have to knock everyone else down in order to make themselves feel better.
(To clarify: 'm not referring specifically to anyone in the SCA or anyone with a title.) Snarking is a behavior, and anyone can do it. It doesn't matter what group they are in, or what their title is.
Because I've been the business end of the snark-beating stick for many years, I have a lot to say about this behavior. I hope you'll bear with me, because being snarked NEVER feels good. Maybe I'll convince just one snarker to stop this terrible behavior. It's unlikely, but maybe . . .
As most of you know, I sew as a career. I have been educated in theatre design (costume and scenic), so often my garments are more artistic than historically accurate. However, I make what people pay me to make, and I don't tell them what they should or should not wear. EVER. If I did, I would have gone out of business long ago.
I know how to research. I know how to make historically accurate clothing. And sometimes I do. But if I don't, it's nobody's business but mine and the person who paid me to make the clothing.
If I could make anything *I* wanted to make, I would make lots of historically accurate garments. But the reality is - people who know what is historically accurate also typically know HOW TO MAKE IT. Which means they aren't going to pay someone else to make it for them and if I waited solely for those customers, I'd go out of business.
That said, I'm not even a little bit picky about sewing what people want to pay me to make. I'll gladly make it for them and I will *never* judge them for it.
"You want an Elizabethan gown made from grape leaves and saran wrap? NO PROBLEM!" And I am HAPPY to do it. The more creative, and the more artistic, the more fun I will have making it. I really DO have the best job on earth. I love all of my customers and their varied tastes, from the period-correct customers to the Cosplay folks.
I have been on the receiving end of snarky behavior for almost a decade. It hurts every time I see/hear it happening. I will never get used to it. I've seen a lot of folks hiding behind "locked" journal and newsgroup posts picking on the rest of the world: Yeah, we find out about it. People send it to us. We deal with it. We move on.
It's safe to assume that I dislike the act of snarking. I've never seen it done with any amount of manners or tact, because the whole point of snarking is to do it as underhandedly and as unkindly as possible. It's never done with manners, it's usually done behind people's backs.
This is what I find comical, though: Snarkers, if you're going to snark everyone else's clothing, you darn well better be sure that your own wardrobe is flawless. Because the moment the world sees you selling your polyester gowns and your "faire" Irish overdresses, you're going to labeled a hypocrite. It's very hard to have any amount of respect for a hypocrite - much less a snarky hypocrite.
I see so many wonderful, talented and knowledgeable stitchers and costumers who DON'T feel it necessary to hide behind newsgroups and closed doors to pick on other people, and THOSE are the people I respect. Those are the people I go to when I need advice. Those people would never dole out unsolicited advice, and they would never pick on others.
Hey, we're all still learning about historical accuracy, and none of us will never know everything. There's absolutely no need to tell a person that their work is inferior unless they SPECIFICALLY ASK YOU FOR WAYS THEY CAN MAKE IT MORE ACCURATE. If nobody asks, don't comment. Spread a little sunshine. Offer some positivity. Stop being so mean, because karma will bite you in the butt cheeks, guaranteed.
Now, on the other hand, if you ASK someone for advice on how to be more accurate, and they tell you that your garb needs work, that is NOT snarking. That's constructive criticism and you asked for it. Be prepared to hear what needs to be improved and be grateful for the advice.
Also, if you work as a paid faire employee, must wear a "uniform" with historical accuracy requirements and have been told that your wardrobe isn't acceptable, that's not snarking. That's your employer doing their job, asking you to do yours. Many companies require uniforms - and if you get paid to be historically accurate, expect criticism if your attire isn't up to snuff.
I'll step off my soapbox. I'm sure I'll make a lot of enemies from this post, but I'd like those who have been on the receiving end of unkind behavior to know that when others snark you, it's not about you, it's about THEIR shortcomings, not yours. Don't let them pee on your parade. You get to choose what works for you. If it makes YOU happy, that is the ONLY thing that matters.
Isabella: I don't think it's fair to say that everyone snarks. I know a lot of people who don't do it. I don't find anything enjoyable about picking on other people.
Quote from: verymerryseamstress on July 23, 2008, 07:50:37 AM
This is what I find comical, though: Snarkers, if you're going to snark everyone else's clothing, you darn well better be sure that your own wardrobe is flawless. Because the moment the world sees you selling your polyester gowns and your "faire" Irish overdresses, you're going to labeled a hypocrite. It's very hard to have any amount of respect for a hypocrite - much less a snarky hypocrite.
I couldn't agree more with you on your entire post but this point specifically! I can't tell you the number of times I've seen people lay into people about not being H/A standing there in spandex and fairie wings or some such other totally non-H/A garb. Why people feel that they have to do that is beyond me.
I design all my garb and my wife makes it and we need to be as H/A as possible because we are on cast as nobles. So I know quite a bit about what is and isn't H/A but am by no means an expert. That being said, that is what I want in garb but that is NOT necessarily what others want in their garb so just because someone is into H/A garb doesn't mean that everyone is. I'll admit I may look at someone's garb and THINK that this or that is wrong with their garb but I would NEVER say it to them. That is just flat wrong unless they ask me for advice. Then as you said, its not snarking but constructive critisism.
Snarks(also read garb/costume nazis) really annoy me. While I do not have a vast knowledge of every last stich, seam, fabric or whatever in order to put the snark in his or her place, I do have one bit of knowledge that could be used, but look first before you use it, because someone may have gone the extra mile to cover this. Look at their shoes. If the footwear has a definite right/left design comment(nicely, but somewhat sarcastically) on the fact that that design did not come about until much, much later in historical time and most definitely not in or most favored time frame. Smile and continue on your journey. Worked for me many times. Snarkers should be put in their place and severely so. There is nothing more rude than to rain on someones parade that has put in a lot of time and effort to blend in. So theydid not have access to the right fabric and all of the sewing is machine sewing, SO WHAT, they are trying. Those that know me will have a hard time believing that I have mellowed a bit, but I dread to think what the outcome would have been if someone had snarked me about my very first renne outfit. It was colorful to say the least and a bit out of fashion, but man was I proud of it. I did not do the actual sewing but I designed it and wore it proudly. So when ever I see and/or hear snarking going on I step forward and do my best to repair whatever damage may have been done.
I believe there is a difference between snarking in your own mind and snarking aloud, and to the person. It's like when you think something rude, but have enough manners not to say it. I cannot stand those who snark people at faire. It is faire and is meant to be enjoyed. While I have not experienced snarking to my face, I know myself and I know if someone did that to me, I'd be extremely hurt. I put a lot of effort and design into my clothing H/A or not and I would probably trash that outfit as soon as I got home from remarks like that... and who has the right to make someone feel that badly about themselves? No one at faire because faire is about the spirit and the feeling of it and anyone who snarks is taking away the spirit of the faire we all love. You make H/A outfits, fantastic, power to you, but don't insult someone who doesn't. Maybe they did it intentionally, did the snarkers ever think about that? As I've gotten older (a big 21 years, haha), I think I've learned to say to someone who's picked on my clothing by saying, "Yes, I know it's not H/A or I would have done this or that, but this was intentional. I'm having a good time, are you?" Chances are, they are not. If a snarker wants H/A, join a re-enactment group that focuses on that.
And while I think everyone sort of snarks in their head, I don't think I've ever done it to someone in person. The only time I say anything about an outfit, is when someone is indecent (buttcheeks and too much cleavage (I think we know what I mean) is not something appropriate in public places, sorry). Let people enjoy what they are wearing. Appreciate the thought that went into it.
As a Period Clothing Costumer myself, I strive to be as H/A as I can when doing my own garb and that of clients. I believe strongly research does help as does knowing the techniques used to achieve the H/A look. But I also put a great deal of attention on workmanship. But also wearing garb for fun is as important as being H/A.
Sometimes I have been snarked in my garb by those who feel that they are far more superior than I am and know it all. For as long as I have been sewing, I am still learning new things.
I have found myself in that position at times to want to say something unbecoming about something, but held my tounge. But something positive goes a lot further. I use the FEEL, FELT, FOUND method.
"I understand how you FEEL about Cartridge Pleating. I FELT the same way about this technique. But I FOUND that with more research and time, I was able to figure it out and inprove on it." People love it when ideas are shared. Everybody wins.
How you handle snarking is based on your garbing goals. If you just want something to wear to faire. Then by all means, tell the person in question, "That's nice, but that's not my approach."
If you are attempting a more historical piece, then by all means cite your research and resources, ask for theirs. It might start a dialogue, you might learn something, and the bar might be raised. Debates and dialogues, are great ways to bounce ideas off of people.
As I said before people who "snark" are usually one of three types:
A)People who mean well, want to help, but lack the social graces to tell you so in a tactful manner.
B)People who are insecure, and the best way they can feel better about themselves is to offer up information because it makes them feel smarter.
C)Geniunely mean individuals who are out to ruin your day
9 times out of 10...its A or B...
In regards to the SCA, Laurels are supposed to be teachers, and the best teachers expect a level of excellence. In all other cases see A,B, and C above.
Oh, and if you are a truly fantastic creature I find the best defense is....I don't really exist in your plane...I'm a figment of your imagination. Its how my friend who played Titania at TRF excused the zippers on her boots.
I go to faire, wearing what I wear because 1. I enjoy faire and 2. I feel beautiful in it. I am reasonably period, as far as fabric choices (mostly solid colors, always natural fibers except for 1 corset) go. I choose to stick with relatively basic wench, because I don't feel the need or desire for lots of trim and details on what I wear. I am there to have fun, not to be a history lesson, or a fashion history lesson. There are times that I do something a little off the wall (I had Elvis on my bodice for Day of Wrong this year, along with blue suede medieval moccasins). Nobody has to like it except me, because I am not on cast, and I paid my admission, and while it may be offensive to the very picky folks, in general it's not offensive. I don't always wear a head covering, or have my hair done. All this means is I'm not allowed to march in parade. Doesn't matter to me. I am sure that I've been snarked in the past (heck, looking at photos of what I wore in pathetic attempts to be garbed, I certainly would have said to one or two of my close friends "oh my, give her points for trying, but ugh, that's just awful")
This past season, a friend, and, frankly someone from whom I've learned a lot about garb, who I have looked up to as sort of a garb mentor because she makes some of the most fabulous gowns I've seen. was snarky to me on the last day of the season. Now, I mentioned that I do basic wench. I found online fabrics that represent/honor various branches of the military. I managed to procure those of the Army, Navy, Air Force, and Marines. I cut panels, stitched them together, and made me a "Tribute to the Military" skirt to wear for Memorial Day. Period? Nope. H/A? Nope. One of a kind? Yep. Made me happy? You bet. Out in the parking lot, I had been laced into my corset, which didn't "match", but IMHO, coordinated, as it was red with black trim and little silver slashes on it. (skirt panels were either in blues/reds or khaki's/reds, depending on the branch). I had gone back over to my car to get the rest of my stuff loaded onto my belt and get my belt on when she arrived. I was BEAMING and quite proud of my outfit. I said to her "look at my Tribute to the Military skirt", and held it spread so she could see all the panels, anticipating a fellow military brat's appreciation of the fabric. What I got instead was "oh, nice, but the corset doesn't match". Fortunately, I am 1. secure enough in myself and what I had done and 2. who do you suppose I learned about snarking from?? that I could blow off the comment after the initial sting.
I have seen some truly HORRID things, but as I have limited knowledge of H/A, what causes me to do what snarking I do, amongst a handful of friends has less to do with H/A and more to do with the fact that it is a 300 pound woman wearing strips of sheer fabric as her skirt with nothing under it and a Frederick's corset that is straining equipment limits, or some such thing that is probably inappropriate and/or offensive to the majority of the general population not just of the faire world, but of the American mundane world as well. I try to never snark my friends or people that I know, and if I have the opportunity, I try to offer friendly suggestions for improvement.
Quote from: Master James on July 23, 2008, 09:01:26 AM
I'll admit I may look at someone's garb and THINK that this or that is wrong with their garb but I would NEVER say it to them. That is just flat wrong unless they ask me for advice. Then as you said, its not snarking but constructive critisism.
I agree. It's just plain rude to offer unsolicited opinions or advice, and there's a tactful way to do it if someone asks. A little encouragement goes a long way.
I've never been snarked, and if someone were to make a negative comment about my garb, I'd tell 'em to stuff it. I don't aspire to historical accuracy (my look is historically
inspired) and I make no apologies for that.
Critisism can be supportive. I wore my new middles for the first time this spring. I made them myself and there was much ripping, bleeding, cursing and hair pulling involved. They were not fancy, nor were they probably the best made, but *I* made them, and I was proud of the effort. My guildmistress is very talented in garbing and knowledgeable in h/a. She didn't say a word about what was wrong...just praised me on my efforts and said I looked fabulous.
Meadering thru the fair that day, I happened upon another mistress who commented on my garb, positively:) I was in heaven! But she followed this up with a bit of education on my choice of colors. I chose a rose and sage green combo... (a bit contempory? I don't know, I didn't pick the colors, my guildmistress helped me pick the fabric. I've always loved the combo so I made the garb.) This person told me while the colors were probably not commonly put together, they were in existance and proceeded to tell my their period names.... bloody spaniard and gooseturd green. I was humbly educated:) I'm wearing blood and bird poop!!! :D We had a good giggle and she gave me some more good advice on how to improve my garb.
It's all in the delivery:)
Quote from: verymerryseamstress on July 23, 2008, 07:54:13 AM
Isabella: I don't think it's fair to say that everyone snarks. I know a lot of people who don't do it. I don't find anything enjoyable about picking on other people.
Being snarky is not necessarily about "picking on other people". It could simply be a rather off-handed response to some unsolicited inane information they feel needs to be interjected into your conversation. ;)
It doesn't matter. I don't pick on people. I don't snark people. For her to say that everyone does it is not accurate.
Quote from: verymerryseamstress on July 23, 2008, 11:38:09 AM
It doesn't matter. I don't pick on people. I don't snark people. For her to say that everyone does it is not accurate.
I'll totally vouch for Heather on this one. She is the most non-snarky person I know. :)
It's all in the delivery:) (//http://It's%20all%20in%20the%20delivery:))
This is actually a major issue in all facets of life. Interpersonal skills are really falling by the wayside. In the business world, it prevents people from getting jobs for which they are otherwise qualified.
My uncle, the Caliph, used to say: The dogs may bark, but the caravan passes by. Gather up the skull & crossbones & roses skirt & leave.
I have to wear glasses - contacts are out of the question - and am almost always in Crocs (ugliest shoes in the world) because of peripheral neuropathy. So I try to remember that people do the best they can under their own personal circumstances.
Awww, thanks, 'Stah! ;D
Quote from: Taffy Saltwater on July 23, 2008, 01:41:23 PM
I have to wear glasses - contacts are out of the question - and am almost always in Crocs (ugliest shoes in the world) because of peripheral neuropathy. So I try to remember that people do the best they can under their own personal circumstances.
Have you seen the mary-jane style Crocs (http://shop.crocs.com/pc-421-4-alice.aspx?reqid=421&reqProdTypeId=41p&subsectionname=footwear§ion=products)? I don't know if they'd work the same as the regular Crocs for your feet, but they're becoming pretty popular amongst the SCA crowd for nice-looking shoes that pass the "ten foot rule" on muddy sites. :)
Of course - if they don't offer the same support as the regular crocs, that's totally different. Personal safety comes WAY before any hobby. :)
While cute, I could NEVER wear a Croc. All of them hurt my feet no matter what I do
While visiting another Festival, I showed up in my fest boots, a utilikilt, a period shirt, sunglasses and a silk headwrap. I got a lot of people who commented about my outfit and how it was period. I kindly pointed out that I was not a "playtron" and was only there to enjoy the festival as a "paytron". The boots I wore because they are very comfortable and look better with the utilikilt than any other footwear I own. The utilikilt speaks for itself on a hot day...or any day for that matter. The period shirt because it would prevent me from getting burned and was still breathable. The sunglasses because my eyes are very sensitive to the sun.
Mostly they either moved on or apologized.
*looks around questioningly*
Someone was talking smack about a kilted man? >:(
Pick on my Tevas all ya want, but PLEASE leave those kilted men alone. They are the reason *I* go to faire. ;-)
Amen, Sista! 8)
QuoteAmen, Sista!
*chuckle*
I had a feelin' I wasn't alone. ;)
Back to the original question.
A lot of what you run into with the SCA is "My Laurel told me that it was done such and such"
Sometimes this is 30 year old research that has been handed down through several people to the current crop of Laurels.
Since I am a compulsive reader I can usually come back with "That was thought to be true xxxx but recent modern research has proved xxxx to be true instead".
Herbert Norris used to be considered the last word on Tudor Fashion, but many of his statements have been disproved by more recent examinations of records and extant garments.
But there are still people in the SCA who swear by him.
As for handling the snarking, just smile and say "How Interesting"
Unsolicited negative criticism is the height of rudeness and deserves no further comment.
Quote from: verymerryseamstress on July 23, 2008, 03:37:13 PM
QuoteAmen, Sista!
*chuckle*
I had a feelin' I wasn't alone. ;)
HUZZAH to that
No not alone. not hardly. As I just said in the CoRF, What women doesn''t love a man in a kilt
I swoon in the wake of the kilted man.
You can quote me on that. ;)
I bought my husband a kilt for MY birthday last year! ;)
Quote"That was thought to be true xxxx but recent modern research has proved xxxx to be true instead".
Great point Dona Catalina! There are always great new resources coming to light. I can think of some of the books I first used when I started costuming...
http://www.amazon.com/Elizabethan-Costuming-Years-1550-1580/dp/0963022008 this one was supposedly the be all and end all...
Then I discovered Janet Arnold.
Honestly a good laurel doesn't rest on it....(the laurel that is)...they strive to do still better. They keep raising the proverbial bar.
For would-be snarkers at faire, I just want to emphasize the point that those of us who attend faires sometimes know that we aren't H/A and have our reasons for it.
I remember being snarked on (by someone who wasn't even in garb) about how the dress I'm wearing in my profile pic wasn't period. I'm almost wanted to turn around and go "Duh". I knew it wasn't, but earlier that year two things happend--Greycat announced she was closing and I got more back on my tax return than I expected. I had always loved that dress and figured I ought to get it while I had the opportunity.
Now I ask you? Where else am I going to wear that dress except the faire?
I wouldn't wear it to an SCA event because it isn't H/A. And while it might interesting to wear it to get groceries or something, I don't think I've got the guts to do it.
I have a whole poem and a bit about regimental kilts that I cannot WAIT to try out at MIRF!!!!! I've been working on it for weeks now. All I need now is one million yards of blue ribbon and a little courage :) Thankfully my character has more guts than I do.
The bottom line is if someone is going to have a wonderful day because I'm not perfectly H/A (thankfully our wardrobe mistress at MIRF is a sensible woman and understands things like costs and evil children with Pnut butter paws) then they can have at it. I feel sorry for someone who has to make fun of people in a hurtful way to feel better about themselves. I overhear a snark and I'm going up to the snarkee and telling them how lovely they are and what a wonderful addition to our town they are this fine day.
That goes for people who crack wise about weight (I used to weigh 320 pounds and I have no tolerance for people who make fun of heavy people), height, how exhausted parents look, and if a child is "different" since different is normal here.
Gosh, I can't wait till the 16th of August. I'm like a pomeranian on crack.
Quote from: serenamoonsilver on July 23, 2008, 04:56:36 PM
For would-be snarkers at faire, I just want to emphasize the point that those of us who attend faires sometimes know that we aren't H/A and have our reasons for it.
My friend has ginormous protuberances in the chesticle region and we tried for two days to make her a bodice without a dart. She's also of differing sizes in this region. We finally grabbed a beer and said, "the heck with it." She's got darts and that's that. Life goes on.
I, on the other hand, hace lost weight, namely in same region and I look like a boy with hips in my garb. No chesticles at all.
Quote from: nliedel on July 23, 2008, 05:02:00 PM
Quote from: serenamoonsilver on July 23, 2008, 04:56:36 PM
For would-be snarkers at faire, I just want to emphasize the point that those of us who attend faires sometimes know that we aren't H/A and have our reasons for it.
I, on the other hand, hace lost weight, namely in same region and I look like a boy with hips in my garb. No chesticles at all.
I hear that one, I joke i'm built like a linebacker, but then again I guess it's because I was one :)
I am on the not joining the SCA because of a snarky comment made by a member.
I hate the people that come up to you and say that you are not H/A when they themselves are no where near accurate! So I tell them that if I wanted to wear five layers of wool I would but seeming how it is 80+ out side I dont want to get heat stroke! And i look 5 times better than them, since I did not make my garb from a table cloth..
And yes I did say that to someone... I was in a bad mood that day... ::)
I've not been snarked at as of yet by anyone, (everyone who has commented on the garb I've made has been wonderfully kind and supportive) although I'm quite certain none of my garb is H/A...and hubby's garb, with its fantasy elements, I know isn't accurate. :) But I don't think I'd let it bother me if anyone did make negative comments; so long as hubby and I are happy with our garb, that's enough for me.
Besides, to be completely H/A, one might argue that the make-up should also be H/A...and I'm quite sure even the most die-hard H/A snarks wouldn't want to smear lead-based face paint on themselves... :D
wow, i leave to go put in a deposit to my school and 3 pages of comments?
I'm not going to agree that all people snark, but i will agree that most do. It's quite alright to have snarky thoughts in your head, it's quite another to put them out of your mouth in a mean or hurtful way. I have looked at pictures of peoples garb and been very dissapointed when you see all of this hard work they put into it and see that if they had only made bodice bottom just a little tiny bit higher closer to their natural waist how amazingly wonderful it would have looked... I know I am not a garb expert, I am a complete noob. and that person did not ask for my criticism so hence I keep it to myself and instead comment on the lovely color choice and how they complement the persons skintone, or how much I like the trim. If someone asks about how they can make their garb more h/a or what they can do to improve the general look, you can bet I'll pipe up and say well if the bodice was a little bit shorter, it wouldn't wrinkle there and it would be a bit more flattering for your figure as well as probably be more comfortable..
I think everyone has thoughts when they see garb that involves ways they can improve on it... a snarky person may say these thoughts outloud with disregard for that persons feelings and without being asked, a more polite person will hold these thoughts to themselves or find a way to say them without hurting feelings.
It is my personal feeling that a little snarkiness is ok, but blunt force simon cowell-esq trauma to the go is just mean, and usually does nothing useful.
And honeslty did you really feel that the fairy in spandex and polyester had no inkling whatsoever that none of that was period? Or that the person with bloomers with text all over and micky mouse on them had no clue?
As I mentioned in other threads, no one has ever made a comment to my face about the inappropriateness of our garb. First faire was in 1980, when we had a booth demonstrating brass rubbing. I wore a black velour bathrobe with a zipper up the front, a chain belt, and a flower ring in my hair. In the mid 90's, Steve wore maroon choir robe covered with an orange and gold brocade sleeveless long vest that I made out of a Goodwill curtain. If anyone was going to snark, it should have been then.
Having gone to faire regularly for the past 12 years, again, no one has ever commented directly to us or behind our backs that I noticed. I also find that in most situations, humor -- whether aloud or simply thought to oneself -- can diffuse negativity.
Fooling around, I came up with a couple of phrases that I feel could be of use to me if anyone ever snarked about my garb.
"Historically accurate? If I was historically accurate, at my age I'd be dead." (I wouldn't feel bad about saying this out loud while smiling).
"If your husband told you all the time you wore this outfit how gorgeous and beautiful you looked, who gives a darn about historically accurate or if it's got a wrinkle in it?" (And my husband really does compliment me on my garb, and I like it, too, and that's what really matters).
Now this next I'd never, ever say to anyone, but I could think it to myself. And for some reason, it makes me crack up laughing.
"Historically accurate? If I was historically accurate, at my age I'd be dead. As would you, because they would have already burned you at the stake, you witch."
But I am comfortable enough in my skin to not care anymore what anyone else thinks, so I probably would just blow off any criticism.
Quote from: Taffy Saltwater on July 23, 2008, 01:41:23 PM
I have to wear glasses - contacts are out of the question - and am almost always in Crocs (ugliest shoes in the world) because of peripheral neuropathy. So I try to remember that people do the best they can under their own personal circumstances.
I am with ya Taffy. I am diabetic, I wear Doc Martens, and sunglasses. If someone is tacky enough to snark to me, well I tell them why I wear them and it usually shuts them up. I am not going to sacrifice my health to be H/A. - Which I never have been anyways. And I am not on cast, so no big deal.
(When I look back to my first gown, oh Lordy what a fright it was. )
My approach is wear what makes ya happy!
And Lady Renee,
I LOVE your witch retort!!!
You guys are a lot nicer than I was when I was first snarked. My first garb was a halloween costume and no one said anything. It was printed fabric dress and polyester silk top. The next year I worked real hard to make the red dress from Ever After. All I heard was good comments. The next year. . . we wont talk about that one.
So for this particular year I threw caution to the wind! I didn't care about the correct fabric or colors, I just picked what I liked. When I went to faire I got a lot of looks ( of confusion ). Most people just asked me was I a wench. But one guy just came up to me as I was walking by and proceded to tell me everything that was wrong with my dress.
"This collar was not even of this time, your skirt is one of a wench and your sleeves are of nobility. And the beaded fringe everywhere just tells me that this dress was handed down to you from someone who didn't want it anymore and you added the fringe in order to make it your own like a gypsy would do. . ."
I waited until he caught his breath and I told him " Well I guess it's a damn good thing that I don't work here then!" And walked away.
Should I have told him that HIS top he was wearing had a zipper in the back, or do you think he already knew it? ;)
Hehehe...what I think of whe it comes to historical accuracy..
Well, to be totally H/A, we should starve ourselves(It wouldn't hurt me, tho!),knock out our teeth, and contract the plague? ;)
LOL! I agree, fun is the most important element, and positivity the goal!
I was snarked in 2005 at the MNRF because I had shades over my glasses and that I had an umbrella instead of a parasol.
My comeback was..."At least I came dressed right for the era."
Now I have a parasol and I stand the sunlight in my glasses without shades.
Unless one is asked or am part of a costume approval process - stick with the wise words of grandmother's everywhere "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."
And if you are asked or suppose to comment - lead with something positive to soften the other comments that may be less palatable. There is always something that said positive that is found about any effort! I find that people listen better if they feel like you are critiquing vs. criticizing.
Where do all you Snarkees live? In the early days I wore things that I will not let see the light of day again. Poorly fitted, poorly constructed things made with exceedingly poor fabric choices. And in spite of this, NO ONE ever said anything remotely snarky to me. As my abilities have improved I've actually started garnering attention, but it has all been positive.
Granted my biggest critic has always been myself.
Quote from: Miranda on July 25, 2008, 09:38:00 AM
Where do all you Snarkees live? In the early days I wore things that I will not let see the light of day again. Poorly fitted, poorly constructed things made with exceedingly poor fabric choices. And in spite of this, NO ONE ever said anything remotely snarky to me. As my abilities have improved I've actually started garnering attention, but it has all been positive.
Granted my biggest critic has always been myself.
Precisely! I am Ren & SCA and have not been snarked either......except in my own Mind because I know what is wrong with my garb....Maybe I just already look so Pissy no one wants to say anything to me?
QuoteMaybe I just already look so Pissy no one wants to say anything to me?
I don't know....my persona is decidedly demure and exceedingly nice....and I'm approached on a regular basis, is generally by people who want directions to the joust or to take photos with me.
I am so glad others have some comments about this situation!! I was afraid others had not had the experience or could not empathize with this experience!
So I have comments
To nliedel:
I have been part of the Faires for 29 years now, and part of the SCA for the past 23 of those years! I am so sorry you had that experience; I can only hope you will try again and see if you have a different one!! I feel I feel badly that you had to deal with a loser whose thoughtless words caused you a moment's pain. It takes all sorts to be in a hobby, you will meet all of the characters, some you avoid. Sounds you met one to be avoided LOL
As to everyone being a Snert? Well I can be truthful and yes I have been and probably will be again! However? I would never be crass enough to tell you without you asking me? That I thought your stuff sucked!! I have thought "What is with the 'I dream of Jeanie'garb? Or a person who has a 4 boobed bodice and they are only being held together by their smock and a wish. Usually I go up introduce myself and attempt to learn what the person was thinking and how I can suggest anything to help them on their way.
Unless that is as far as they want to play, and then? Good for them, while it is not something I personally would wear? It is your choice so brava and I move on with my life. I became a Chatelaine because I wanted people to have a positive face on the SCA.
On Being a Laurel
While the Laurel I had is clueless, she actually feels her crass comments are #1 helpful and that #2 YOU must listen because she is a LAUREL! She is firmly of the attitude that truth should be swift and blunt. And of course you must listen to her munificence!!! She has reduced some to tears and a couple people after dealing with this person has left the SCA altogether and when she is brought to task she has been puzzled that anyone would have issue with her views.
What have I done to make a Change?
I became a person that is a go to person within the SCA, and I attempt to make the experience special and fun and hopefully all who come to the Dream? Will leave not with a nightmare, but with part of that dream! I have also learned to monitor my voice and work with people who might not want to be historically accurate, I just worked with several lovely people who want to be Pirates....so I showed them what they would have worn in the 1500's and they wanted *you all know* so I helped them tone down the 1700's pirate, by using Italian City States Clothing with some flair! ;)
Cilean
I think the reply should be:,
"This is a Renaissance-themed fair -not a living history museum." and "I'm a paying customer (if that applies) and you're being incredibly rude, if you're employed here you need a lesson in customer service"
Quote from: groomporter on July 25, 2008, 09:16:22 PM
I think the reply should be:,
"This is a Renaissance-themed fair -not a living history museum." and "I'm a paying customer (if that applies) and you're being incredibly rude, if you're employed here you need a lesson in customer service"
Quote from: groomporter on July 25, 2008, 09:16:22 PM
I think the reply should be:,
"This is a Renaissance-themed fair -not a living history museum." and "I'm a paying customer (if that applies) and you're being incredibly rude, if you're employed here you need a lesson in customer service"
-Oh and I'm someone who does believe fairs could be a bit more historically accurate and still be entertaining, but that doesn't excuse rudeness.
The snarking hurt, Cilean, but not as much as when a cast member of MIRF (no longer there) told me flat out I should be burned. I was wearing a pent and it was not said as a joke. I plan to make an extra effort with people who try hard and people who look like they want to fit in.
Yeah - snarking does hurt when you still have your 'garb training wheels' on. When you want your garb to be "better" but you have no idea how to do it better.
Comments I have run into are "Oh, you are so close, but that (the bodice - it did not fit quite right) needs to be done better." and "Oh, how interesting." And a person can tell when that is a compliment or a slam.
Now, I really don't care what people say to me. I like my garb to be as HA as I care to make it. The things that are not HA - like my grommets I don't cover over - I truly don't care about. If someone said something about them, they'd get an "Oh, I know." from me and probably a comment on unsolicited advise.
The ONLY time I said something to a person about their garb was when I saw a woman who's boobs were so far up in her bodice that you could see her nipples. But even then, you don't say something loudly, I tapped her on the shoulder and whispered to her behind my fan and said something like: "Madame, whilst you do look lovely today, the puppies are so high up in the bodice that I can see their brown noses." It took her a second to get what I said but then she went "Oh my God!" tucked in a bit and then asked OK now? She was wearing a typical faire garb that looked like she had just bought it from one of the shops, she still had on her tennis shoes a flower wreath from one of the shops and a beer in her hand. "Madame, you look lovely and look as if you are having a wonderful time. I wish you a good and great day." Grinning from ear to ear, she caught up with her friends.
It's really all in the delivery and if someone ASKS you for help, teach them, show them where they can make better choices and suck another persone into the realm of garb hoarders!!!
Mistress margaret, you handled the puppy incident very well! I cases like that, it is truly kinder to let the wearer know that there is a "malfunction" than to let them wander the faire with more showing than they intended. Props to you!
While I haven't been snarked, a friend of mine was on the receiving end of a comment that ended up hurting her deeply. I don't believe that the comment was meant with any malice, but was more along the lines of what the Laurel who thought she was being nothing but helpful said.
If people would just remember that they don't always know the reasons why someone, even on cast, is wearing what they are wearing.... (space constraints, weather, mud, etc.)
Our poor Maid Marion was snarked as well, as she was wearing her forest garb rather than her court gown (which is lovely). She replied that the hoop would get caught in the trees, so she made clothing that was more suitable. ;D
QuoteI don't aspire to historical accuracy (my look is historically inspired) and I make no apologies for that.
This is the best comment I've taken away from this thread. Also...the incredible comebacks! Now I have an arsenal at the ready. I'm working my first faire in Ohio starting on Labor Day weekend, so this kinda info helps. They are making uniforms for us, but all the same, it helps to know that this kind of mentality exists...and I thought snarkiness was limited to my sassy kids!
QuoteI would never be crass enough to tell you without you asking me? That I thought your stuff sucked!! I have thought "What is with the 'I dream of Jeanie'garb? Or a person who has a 4 boobed bodice and they are only being held together by their smock and a wish. Usually I go up introduce myself and attempt to learn what the person was thinking and how I can suggest anything to help them on their way.
Cilean, I'm *sure* you meant well, but I think it's the entire idea that a total stranger would approach someone and offer unsolicited commentary--however "helpful" the person meant to be--about her garb that bothers most people. "Attempt to learn what that person was thinking and how I can suggest anything?" I know that all of us here on the boards *love* to help others with their garb, but for me this crosses the line. It just seems awfully presumptuous to offer a total stranger my
opinion on his/her garb, let alone my "help."
But it's nice to see the *other* side--what the person on the receiving end perceives as "snarking," the person offering the commentary may truly mean well, and want to share her knowledge!
But I still think the line is too fine a one to cross unless invited.
I actually had a SLIGHT snark done to me this weekend at CoRF by a Mundane, How funny.
I took my camera... the big honking thing that I call my Papperazzi Camera with the not so overly long lens that takes great photo's. I was in garb... of course I'd be in garb and a guy stoped while I was talking a photo of someone else in garb and said ,WOW some nice Renaissance Camera! I just smiled and walked away. I felt like saying to him but didn't
"Sir, this is actually a magical box filled with 10 tiny magical fairies inside that scribe an image of what I point it at and open their window for them to see. I feed them children, stray cats and Snarkers like you, Have a Good Day my lord! ;)
Oh no offence to you cat owners.
But it was so nice as the outfit I wore to CoRF today which is not (tome it's not) H/A I got only compliments on including the court. Makes you feel good when someone says something nice.
Quote from: Lady de Laney on July 26, 2008, 08:29:13 PM
I actually had a SLIGHT snark done to me this weekend at CoRF by a Mundane, How funny.
I took my camera... the big honking thing that I call my Papperazzi Camera with the not so overly long lens that takes great photo's. I was in garb... of course I'd be in garb and a guy stoped while I was talking a photo of someone else in garb and said ,WOW some nice Renaissance Camera! I just smiled and walked away. I felt like saying to him but didn't
"Isn't it amazing what the Italians invent? A miniature portrait box. What will they think of next?"
Quote from: nliedel on July 27, 2008, 07:22:37 AM
Quote from: Lady de Laney on July 26, 2008, 08:29:13 PM
I actually had a SLIGHT snark done to me this weekend at CoRF by a Mundane, How funny.
I took my camera... the big honking thing that I call my Papperazzi Camera with the not so overly long lens that takes great photo's. I was in garb... of course I'd be in garb and a guy stoped while I was talking a photo of someone else in garb and said ,WOW some nice Renaissance Camera! I just smiled and walked away. I felt like saying to him but didn't
"Isn't it amazing what the Italians invent? A miniature portrait box. What will they think of next?"
Italians? I thought it was those Crazy Germans... Sheesh see what I know :D
Quote from: Lady Renee Buchanan on July 23, 2008, 09:30:16 PM
"Historically accurate? If I was historically accurate, at my age I'd be dead. As would you, because they would have already burned you at the stake, you witch.
There are a lot of good comebacks here, but I like this one in particular.
Luckily I've never been snarked, maybe gotten some interesting looks. Considering some of the homemade outfits I've come up with over the years, that's truly incredible. I know our garb isn't HA, and I'm not trying to be. I go with what I can afford. Once my daughter was wearing a homemade flower headband and someone asked where we got it. They said they liked it better than the ones the faire sold.
There was another time years ago when a comment was made to us, and I was never really sure if it was meant as a snark or not. I had my young daughter and young sister with me. They were dressed in some of my embarassing early attempts. My sister was in a "fairy tale princess" style dress. It was a made over bridesmaid type dress (yeah, I went there) with long chiffon flowing sleeves, and grommets up the back to make it seem more rennish. I do still have the dress because it is a rather pretty green brocade-ish looking fabric. I still have the hand sewn and beaded juliet cap with chiffon veil I made too. Anyway..someone who I believe was an employee walked up to us and said, "you all look very nice... it isn't proper, but I just wanted to say that." I walked away muttering, "thanks, I guess." I was never really sure if she meant that our garb wasn't proper but she thought it looked nice anyway, or if she meant that it wasn't proper for her (as an employee) to make the comment, but she was saying it anyway. Thats why I walked away kinda confused. That's the only time anyone's ever said anything. Not that I really give a rats behind if they do, I was just never sure how I should have taken that.
I've never been snarked, though in last year's garb it would have been completely reasonable for me to have been. It was my halloween costume I made to cosplay my WoW character, which I modified to make it more faire-friendly.
I snark to myself at people, but it was fairly good natured. Snicker and move along. Old ladies in prom gowns pay to get in and at least they're trying. Girls with scene hair wearing a Scary Kids Scaring Kids shirt with striped leggings, ballet flats, a tutu, and fairy wings at least got the general idea. PRF isn't very strict about being HA - we have pirate guys, pirate ladies, belly dancers, fairies, a barbarian, me, wizards, guys who just want a place to wear a kilt - and the only people who look out of place are the ones who aren't dressed at all. At the stricter faires, it may be different.
Frankly,
This is my view, and pot stirring.
If the faires have employees who are willing to look down on patrons, then faires will simply die out.
It's called 'sucking out the fun'. If there is a hefty subculture prowling the streets of fairs, then goofy teenagers (okay,adults!) won't feel comfortable coming dressed up like Harry Potter characters and fairy princesses. It's supposed to be a fun place where nerds from all walks of life can converge and do extroverted things like talking to strangers, taking on accents and even (gasp!) flirting. Let's face it, none of us were the star cheerleader or football player in high school. It's absolutely wonderful to have a place full of such easygoing and accepting people. It's a shame that it would be ruined here and there by uptight H/A nazi's.
There, of course, should be a core group that maintains a sense of historical accuracy at the faire to hold together the basic premise, but I don't think that it should in any way be expected of any patrons at any time. It is a noble thing to commit to H/A, but it shouldn't be evangelical.
Dressing and acting strictly 16th century should not be the goal of attending a ren fest. That's clearly not what the community expects from these events. Ren faires in America typically capture a couple hundred years worth of European history, as well as a horde of fantasy elements. If you take out the dragons, pointy-hat princesses, fairy wings and crowns with plastic flowers...then it interests the general population about as much as civil war renactments. Not a widely popular event.
Besides, I'll gladly call out all the Pagans like me that dress up at ren fests. Oh snap! Not very H/A now, are we! Mwah!
I think I should clarify something in my above post that came out wrong. The person that made the comment may have been an ordinary playtron. I'm guessing that something at the time made me think they were working there, possibly in a shop, but I never knew for sure. It wasa long time ago, when I was newer and not as readily able to tell the difference between cast, shop keepers and playtrons. I don't want it to sound like I was trash talking about my faire! Good heavens no! I really can't imagine any of our cast doing something like that. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.
I find it amusing in a way that everyone thinks it's only the people that are into H/A that are snarks. Hardly. I've seen plenty of people that are into more fantastical aspects of costuming that are huge snarks and jerks. Btw, jerks and snarks are two very different types in my mind. A snark will joke with friends but won't say anything overtly rude to the person in question. A jerk will say something rude to the person in question.
Like I said before, some people need to be snarked. If you think you can get your wedding gown sewn in the style of QEI in a matter of three months and the only thing you've sewn before is a handkerchief..and you even needed help with that? Yeah, you are fodder for the masses. It's the Simon type attitude with a need to be blunt.
Is it nice? No. But it's also not nice to think that becoming good at sewing and tailoring is easy and that you can just whip up something extraordinary in a matter of a couple of days. Unless you have been doing costuming or even regularly sewing for years, you are pretty much insulting everyone that has been sewing for years.
As for fantasy sewing and snarking. I've seen gorgeous fantasy costumes (thinking the redone fairy gown that was a wedding gown) and some really truly terrible ones. Fantasy costumes are just as fair game to snarks as historical ones are. Why? Because it's not about the "periodness" but the "correctness" and the good sewing techniques. If you see a halloween costume, you know it's bad from the sewing and fabric standpoint. If you see someone make their own costume based off the halloween one but with great sewing techniques and fabric choice, well, it's far less likely to be snarked. It doesn't matter nearly as much that it's not period. Fabric choice and good sewing techniques are key to any outfit H/A or otherwise. You can have the most gorgeously cut gown ever but if it's out of a fabric that has known issues (like sheerness and you didn't line it, or frays easily or is polyester...ect) you'll get snarked. Basically, if you have good fabric, good stitching (not necessarily period but just seams that won't fall apart or look like they'll fall apart), and a decent fit, you probably won't get snarked.
I want to make one thing perfectly clear before I go on, I am a Dork, not a Nerd. A Dork is an outcast that the masses put up with and a Nerd is a wonka candy that comes in a multitude of flavors! ;P now that that's out of my system.
I always thought that fantasy characters had cart Blanche to basically wear whatever they wanted. They are FANTASY characters. Something someone made up (or what history can't scientifically prove, however you want to look at it!) What reference is there to say "fairies didn't wear anything like that back then"? Come on people, who is that petty. But if you want to crush a 5 year olds dream of going to faire as the rainbow fairy princess because you don't think what she has on is right, than there is no hope for you and with some twist of fate the 5 year olds daddy is 6 feet 8' and doesn't like to see his baby girl crying! ;D
(This is just my humorous rant about the thread, I do not wish to upset any rainbow fairy princess 5 year olds or their 6 feet 8' daddy's to get my point across. Be a rainbow fairy and if I see you at faire i will compliment you profusely!)
I'm not a member of any costume societies, I don't think SCA even exist in Norway. So when I wear/make historical garbs or costumes, it's usually amongst friends (who is, bless them, always enthusiastic and gives constructive feedback) or "amatheurs" (who is impressed by anyone who can put together a bodice).
I don't think I'v ever gotten snarky remarks. Most people are highly civil about what they say. This goes for both real-life people and online folks. But as I said before: I'm not into the SCA thing. I keep reading so much negative about how a few people tends to ruin it all. Whereas I should probably experience it for myself to get a truer picture of the situation, I just don't feel like being hammered down by brats who miss a fundamental thing when it comes to costume making: the joy.
I really don't see snarking as positive. If you have something to say, say it in a constructive way! If something is good, point out what's good. It something could be done better, suggest ways of improvement by pointing out exactly what could be done different. No need to belch about it.
And yes, I have been guilty of being snarky towards another costumer. I did apologize to her both in public and in person. I felt awful, and I hope I'll never be that rude and silly again.
I was just snarked at Saturday. I have not been feeling well but I made a 7 hour trip to go to a faire with my cousin. She was excited and even though I didn't feel well I still wanted to dress up with her. I didn't have the back of the bodice closed all the way so that I would be more comfortable (it was open less than an inch) and some guy comes up to me and TOUCHES my bodice and sticks his finger in the gap (this did not please me or my husband) and proceeds to tell me that to be more historically accurate it should be closed all the way. I was too shocked to do anything before he moved away with his friends.
Quote from: Cateyes on July 28, 2008, 07:09:08 AM
I was just snarked at Saturday. I have not been feeling well but I made a 7 hour trip to go to a faire with my cousin. She was excited and even though I didn't feel well I still wanted to dress up with her. I didn't have the back of the bodice closed all the way so that I would be more comfortable (it was open less than an inch) and some guy comes up to me and TOUCHES my bodice and sticks his finger in the gap (this did not please me or my husband) and proceeds to tell me that to be more historically accurate it should be closed all the way. I was too shocked to do anything before he moved away with his friends.
Rude drunk copping a feel......sorry you had to put up with that darlin.
Quote from: Cateyes on July 28, 2008, 07:09:08 AM
I was just snarked at Saturday. I have not been feeling well but I made a 7 hour trip to go to a faire with my cousin. She was excited and even though I didn't feel well I still wanted to dress up with her. I didn't have the back of the bodice closed all the way so that I would be more comfortable (it was open less than an inch) and some guy comes up to me and TOUCHES my bodice and sticks his finger in the gap (this did not please me or my husband) and proceeds to tell me that to be more historically accurate it should be closed all the way. I was too shocked to do anything before he moved away with his friends.
I'd look at this SOB and tell him "If we were trying to be more historically accurate, My husband would be completely justified in running you through for such a rogueish action as touching another mans woman".
Quote from: isabelladangelo on July 27, 2008, 12:36:44 PM
Like I said before, some people need to be snarked. If you think you can get your wedding gown sewn in the style of QEI in a matter of three months and the only thing you've sewn before is a handkerchief..and you even needed help with that? Yeah, you are fodder for the masses. It's the Simon type attitude with a need to be blunt.
Is it nice? No. But it's also not nice to think that becoming good at sewing and tailoring is easy and that you can just whip up something extraordinary in a matter of a couple of days. Unless you have been doing costuming or even regularly sewing for years,you are pretty much insulting everyone that has been sewing for years
I disagree. While making your first dive from the high dive may not be the best choice...kudos for your kahunas :D Simon's attitude is unacceptable in ANY situation, but especially at faire.
I think
Any effort should be acknowleged for what it is...an effort. If a mundane wants to jump off the high dive.... I'll give them a 10 for enthusiasm. They probably learned a lot from making it and will do better next time. I don't think it's insulting to the accomplished seamstress. If you inspire someone to reach a bit beyond their grasp, be complimented. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. To be insulted by it is bordering on snobbery. (I'm going to get in trouble for this opinion, aren't I)
Merry, I agree with you totally. "Simon Cowell" style remarks are never acceptable, it's just plain rude. Be happy they made an attempt, most likely they will continue to make attempts and get better with practice. None of us have been perfect from our first attempt.
I had been trying to refrain from posting here but it amazes me that some forum members think it's ok to snark. Personally, I think it is rude and uncalled for to give unsolicited criticism on someone's garb. If they ask for advice, fine, give it to them KINDLY. Also consider the fact that there may be reason for the way an outfit is sewn or left unfinished or for fabrics chosen.
As others have said...."if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all."
The fact that anyone in our society thinks that Simon's behavior is acceptable is disturbing to me.
People NEEDto be snarked? Are you serious?
What happened to manners, politeness and common courtesy? My mother taught me that it's impolite to pick on people behind their backs or to their faces - it's rude no matter how you do it.
Is this REALLY the direction that Americans are going with their behavior, or is this just the attitude of a few select people who thinks it's okay to treat others with such disrespect?
To their face, behind their back, it doesn't matter - and like I said, "SNARKING' says a whole lot more about the person's character than it says about their ability to make historically accurate clothing.
While I must agree with almost 100% of what Simon of AI says, I do not agree in his methods and how he says it. But do not put all the blame on poor Simon, his comments from what I have heard are scripted to a point. They are there to give a good laugh, or anger. As I said I do not agree with how Simon gives feedback, I find his comments far more helpful to an aspiring artist than I do Paula's mindlessness "Oh you look beautiful tonight in that dress and your hair is perfect for the song and Oh I love those shoes, keep on beltoning the songs out" garbage. While it is good to hear, I as a former musician would rather hear. Man you missed that song tonight, where was your head, up Millie Vanillies talentlessness? to Your sounding like Britnay spears on Crack while standing on her head.
Having been in the music industry, it is a very big Dog eats Dog world. It has nothing to do with how much talent someone really has, but how much money a record company/producer can make. In that indusrty sometimes harsh feedback is what it takes to wake someone up or knock them off their high horse to make them produce the quality of work that everyone knows they can produce.
In today's industry it's not unheard of the sign a band today, make their billion and then dump the artist off tonever never land to never be seen or heard from again.
I do not believe in Snarking and as I said I do agree with almost everything Simon says, just not his methods. He does it for good reason (make people perform better and find their best and he does it for entertainment. A sports couch is very similar. Having played many years of team compatative sports and even single competative sports no one likes to be yelled at, but sometimes it works to wake up the dorment talent hidden inside. Offending someone to hurt feelings or make personal self better or make you think you are better... is WRONG.
>>What Gem Said
Cilean, I'm *sure* you meant well, but I think it's the entire idea that a total stranger would approach someone and offer unsolicited commentary--however "helpful" the person meant to be--about her garb that bothers most people. "Attempt to learn what that person was thinking and how I can suggest anything?" I know that all of us here on the boards *love* to help others with their garb, but for me this crosses the line. It just seems awfully presumptuous to offer a total stranger my opinion on his/her garb, let alone my "help."<<
My Response:
Actually I what I said was that I would never say something so crass, I guess you missed that part eh? I was speaking within the context of the SCA; We have Clothing Guilds and New Comers Meetings, and people come to our meetings for that specific purpose. However, I have found when I am wearing my garb at Faire, people will come up and ask me many questions, including to look at their garb and make suggestions, they are complete strangers yet they seem to think I could help them. Perhaps this has not happened to you, but it does to me quite a bit.
So yep if you ask me? I will do my best to give you accurate information that I know, and I will further, attempt to get you to guilds or groups in costuming to help you to get to your goals. Whether you are in a Faire or in the SCA or in the International Costumer's Guild, or 'Joan/Joe Shmoe' down the street. I don't have to know you personally to help you with questions. I would find that pretty rude that after researching, asking people and taking every class I could for years to attain some level of knowledge (not much mind you but some) I would not give out what I have been shown, because I did not know the person.
Cilean
On the Simon thing, I think people have gotten so PC that they do not know how to Critique anymore, and so Criticism has taken it's place.
We were taught how to critique in drama class, it was interesting how the other people in class were uncomfortable with saying good things to help you along, but could blast you without a hint of guilt.
Simon thrives on being blunt, and hurtful perhaps because some people will not 'see' the truth unless it is brutal? I don't know, I think there are better ways to put forth your opinion without the rancor of course ?? How many viewers would they lose if Simon became an actual gentleman?
I bet loads
Cilean
Quote from: Trillium on July 28, 2008, 11:12:14 AM
If they ask for advice, fine, give it to them KINDLY. Also consider the fact that there may be reason for the way an outfit is sewn or left unfinished or for fabrics chosen.
See, if anyone asks me for help or advise, the first question I as is "What are you after?" Some may want to go as HA as possible, some may want the look, some may just want to have garb that fits better and doesn't poke or prod.
Advise then goes from there...
Snarking and helping some one make their garb 'better' are two very different things. Snarking may push people away. Advising will bring more people over to the wonderful world of garb.
I found a video of two snarks that I'm pretty sure everyone knows and loves discussing the internet...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhmjnYKlVnM
Have fun!
Oh my Gosh Isabella!!
That is priceless! LMAO!
Cilean
I can only speak from my own experience, a lot of faire goers and start out totally as mundanes and gradually transition to playtrons. My girls (4 out of 5) attend fairs here in Texas, and all they want is a costume. They don't care how H/A it is they just want to play princess, pirate, fairy for the day. They have already begun to make known they want knew outfits for TRF. These girls are 13, 25, 27, and 30. Their costume taste are evolving every year and their interest in fair grows every year. I would hope that those who see us remember all of this is to encourage others to share in something we love and not discourage any on their path of enlightenment. Yes, we may laugh under our breath at some who cross our paths, but often it is a mundane in totally unsuitable garb sweating their backsides off in designer wear, thinking they are the cat's meow. What someone wears isn't as important as what they are feeling. If they feel like a member of the family it so enhances their experience they should be encouraged to continue. For a newbie a chemise and skirt may be the limit of their sewing abilities and or funds. Until we walk a mile in another's shoes to criticize those trying to fit is is just small minded. I wrote a song once about narrow minded people, the chorus went "Narrow minds don't forget, narrow minds they can't forgive. No wrong can be righted no matter how hard you try. You'll always be condemned 'til the day you die by those with narrow minds." I try to remember that as I journey day by day. Unfortunately there are those who think they are experts on everything and have to prove their superiority to everyone by belittling everyone. I was married to one of those. Toxic people cannot be avoided so you have to learn to just ignore them, or divorce them which ever is needed!!!!
I try not to put down anyone's choice of garb, but my own. Not that my own garb looks bad, but I am my biggest critique. Besides, I know my outfit is probably not very H/A. I'd love it to be, but right now I don't have the money. (though I am very proud that my entire outfit cost no more than $60. That's all I paid on it. :D Huzzah for having grandma donate fabric and Huzzah to symphony broadclothe!)
And have people snarked on me? Maybe! Maybe not! I don't know. I've only been to faire once, sadly. (I made the garb just for it) and the only comment actually said to my face was "Congrats on coming to your first faire in garb!" LOL. Every other comment I've received wasn't from faire and it was from my friends who can't sew and they were all like "HOLY COW!" lol.
But on the other hand, I know people are probably going to criticize my work, from the colour scheme to how I made the bodice (which I severely want to make a new one... I'm feeling like princess seems weren't the best option... even if the pattern told me to.) but on the other hand, if I like my work, why should I care what someone else thinks. We all have our opinions, so I'll deal with it.
A girl after my own heart! I, too, try to spend less than $100 on garb per year. It's HARD! And the H/A garb is oober expensive! (but it's soooo pretty!) It's also addicting. I find myself making new garb once a year.
Quote from: ladyecho on July 31, 2008, 12:20:47 AM
A girl after my own heart! I, too, try to spend less than $100 on garb per year. It's HARD! And the H/A garb is oober expensive! (but it's soooo pretty!) It's also addicting. I find myself making new garb once a year.
I've made most of my garb for well under $100 for each gown. If you sign up for coupons from Joann's or Fabric.com, you can get great deals on silks, linens, or wools. Right now, uncut corduroy at Joann's is only $2.99 a yard. It looks very similar to velveteen and has about the same weight. Get five yards of that, make only simple tight fitted sleeves (or don't even bother with the sleeves and just have the chemise sleeves), and you can have a dress for under $20, assuming all you need to buy is the thread (that you have scissors, a sewing machine, pins, and a pattern already). If you want trim, Wally World still has a lot of great trims for $1 a yard (if not less!). You can make a dec'd out dress for under $25.
What most people charge for who make garb isn't the fabric, but the complexity of the pattern and the labor that goes into make the outfit.
Okay, now to get back on subject.
I have seen a lot of bad garb at my local Renn Fest. A lot. What do I mean by bad? I mean indecent. Sheer tops and ill fitting bodice has been covered a bit already. Unfortunately, some females at my faire clearly do it simply for the "shock" factor. (There has been a crack down the past couple of years and it has gotten a LOT better) There was one person I saw a few years back who wore just three pieces of leather hung together with safety pins. Three pieces of leather don't cover me and the certainly didn't cover this person either.
My point is very simple. There is bad garb. Very bad. Yes, it would be nice if we "could just all get along and play and be happy shiny people" but the problem is that the world is not that perfect. Some people wear things to faire because they see it as a mating service rather than the family friendly environment it should be. Some people wear things to faire that make you question their sanity (a pink leotard and fairy wings is cute...but not on a hairy 50 year old man, that goes in the 250+ pound man wearing a speedo department. Some clothing is age/sex/body shape discriminatory). Is it nice to go up to the man and ask him if he's taken his medication today? No. However, giggling to your friends and family and doing the old "eye advert and whisper" can be quite funny. Think of it this way, if nothing else, bad garb makes some people at least laugh. I'm pretty sure there are any number of people that could do a whole comedic routine on bad garb at faire.
There is a big difference between "trying" and "I'm going to do what ever I please and you can't stop me!". I've seen both...a lot. People that are trying will stop and look at other people in garb. You can see that they are considering adding certain elements to their own garb that they like. The "you can't judge me!!!" tend to be far nastier than any snark I have ever encountered, ever.
So...is this a long enough post? I'm leaving for Vacay tomorrow and want to make sure I get enough in before that. ;D
QuoteA girl after my own heart! I, too, try to spend less than $100 on garb per year. It's HARD! And the H/A garb is oober expensive! (but it's soooo pretty!) It's also addicting. I find myself making new garb once a year.
Quite the contrary....the 1560's gentry garb I am building has cost me about 100 dollars. The wool for the kirtle and gown cost 56 dollars, the linen for the lining was 28 and the canvas for the interlining was 5. Thread was 50% and cost me about 10 bucks. So about 100 dollars. A great approach which has served me well, is build pieces rather than entire costumes. I picked a group of signature colors, and try to stay within that color family, or pick fabrics that compliment that color family. That way the kirtle I make for bristol will match the doublet I make for TRF and in several seasons, I have a wardrobe of complimentary garments. So if truly H/A garb is your eventual goal...it can be done without breaking the bank. You may not be able to recreate Holbein's Jane Seymour dress for 100 dollars. But you can build nice merchant class stuff.
Quote
What most people charge for who make garb isn't the fabric, but the complexity of the pattern and the labor that goes into make the outfit.
Sorry Isabella, have to disagree with you. Fabric is the foundation. You can make the most wonderfully constructed costume, but if its out of poly velvet...its not going to look right. The amusing thing is...natural fibers can be had for equal costs, and sometimes cheaper than the chemically built version. That being said.. I cut my costuming teeth on cotton broadcloth, muslin, and stuff I could find. My first bodice, that I was truly proud of was made from an old suede skirt from good will.
Which brings me back to the original thread....
And I'm probably going to be "Virtually Kicked" for what I'm about to say.
I make garb. I'm an artist. My medium may be wools, linen, silk, and thread, but I'm an artist just the same. And you know what happens when you exhibit your art? You are going to meet people who like it, and people who don't. That is the thing about art...not everyone agrees with your choices. And outspoken people are going to tell you so. The only thing you can do, is know why you made the choices you did, and suck it up, and know you are in good company.
QuoteIsabella said..
>>What most people charge for who make garb isn't the fabric, but the complexity of the pattern and the labor that goes into make the outfit.
Miranda said...
>>> Sorry Isabella, have to disagree with you. Fabric is the foundation. You can make the most wonderfully constructed costume, but if its out of poly velvet...its not going to look right. The amusing thing is...natural fibers can be had for equal costs, and sometimes cheaper than the chemically built version. That being said.. I cut my costuming teeth on cotton broadcloth, muslin, and stuff I could find. My first bodice, that I was truly proud of was made from an old suede skirt from good will.
I interpreted Isabella's comment to mean that it's the labor you are really paying for, not the fabrics. Not that the fabrics are wrong or cheap, but the labor has more value.
QuoteWhich brings me back to the original thread....
And I'm probably going to be "Virtually Kicked" for what I'm about to say.
I make garb. I'm an artist. My medium may be wools, linen, silk, and thread, but I'm an artist just the same. And you know what happens when you exhibit your art? You are going to meet people who like it, and people who don't. That is the thing about art...not everyone agrees with your choices. And outspoken people are going to tell you so. The only thing you can do, is know why you made the choices you did, and suck it up, and know you are in good company.
And as for the virtual kicking, well, it won't be by me, Mirabella, in fact, I'll give you a virtual pillow for protection:)
Yeah, read that wrong. :-) It was still early here.
Effort to play means more than anyhting to me. Even 'poorly' made garb is garb. We all start somewhere. Yes, it does becomes a growing process, and we all improve our garb as time passes. If someone gives you advice, or pointers, even if it is a biy snarky, thank them for there help. If they are obviosuly just trying to put you down, tell them to f-off, and enjoy the faire.
Quote from: Merry on July 31, 2008, 09:27:51 AM
QuoteIsabella said..
>>What most people charge for who make garb isn't the fabric, but the complexity of the pattern and the labor that goes into make the outfit.
Miranda said...
>>> Sorry Isabella, have to disagree with you. Fabric is the foundation. You can make the most wonderfully constructed costume, but if its out of poly velvet...its not going to look right. The amusing thing is...natural fibers can be had for equal costs, and sometimes cheaper than the chemically built version. That being said.. I cut my costuming teeth on cotton broadcloth, muslin, and stuff I could find. My first bodice, that I was truly proud of was made from an old suede skirt from good will.
I interpreted Isabella's comment to mean that it's the labor you are really paying for, not the fabrics. Not that the fabrics are wrong or cheap, but the labor has more value.
Yeap, that's what I meant. Thanks!
My first SCA event was a sewing guild meeting. Forgot the name of the guild, sorry. Anywho I went with the intention of learning. To have these women (and men) share their wealth of information and experience with me. I was drooling at the thought.
I garbed up in my best (at the time) basic faire cotton/polyester peasant garb and headed out for the event. Boy, was I snubbed! No one, save one woman, gave me the time of day. I was expecting information and all I got were people who couldn't be bothered with someone who would have the nerve to show up at their meeting dressed in such a way. All these women showed up dressed to the nines and I could hear the compliments they were lavishing on each other. I felt like the outsider not being told to leave. I felt SO uncomfortable I left after an hour.
That made me believe, for a long time, that A&S SCAnadians were haughty and so full of themselves that they couldn't be bothered with a newcomer who only wants to learn to play by their rules. To this day, I won't go to SCA Guild meeting.
Thank Goodness for Pennsic. There I've only come across good people who give me good advice and constructive criticism. I was only snarked once with the words, "That's poor." from two passerby women who commented on my linen surcoat and tunic. I know I'm a novice so I filed the snark in my "Ok, this outfit isn't going to work" folder. I wished they've stopped me and told me WHY my garb was poor instead of just walking away.
Give constructive advice and be someone novices look up to instead of being a drive-by snark that people look down on.
Edit: And thank Goodness for the internet and forums like this. :)
ive never been snarked ( and hope to never be) . i love ALLLLL types of garb,whether h/a or not. people put alot of effort (such as me!) into their outfit, and the last thing that they need to be told is what is wrong with it
i in fact know that my dress is not h/a, and it may not be the best looking dress, but darn it, i made it and i love it !
i cant stand garb nazi's
Quote from: Artemisia on August 18, 2008, 04:33:31 PM
My first SCA event was a sewing guild meeting. Forgot the name of the guild, sorry. Anywho I went with the intention of learning. To have these women (and men) share their wealth of information and experience with me. I was drooling at the thought.
I garbed up in my best (at the time) basic faire cotton/polyester peasant garb and headed out for the event. Boy, was I snubbed! No one, save one woman, gave me the time of day. I was expecting information and all I got were people who couldn't be bothered with someone who would have the nerve to show up at their meeting dressed in such a way. All these women showed up dressed to the nines and I could hear the compliments they were lavishing on each other. I felt like the outsider not being told to leave. I felt SO uncomfortable I left after an hour.
That made me believe, for a long time, that A&S SCAnadians were haughty and so full of themselves that they couldn't be bothered with a newcomer who only wants to learn to play by their rules. To this day, I won't go to SCA Guild meeting.
Thank Goodness for Pennsic. There I've only come across good people who give me good advice and constructive criticism. I was only snarked once with the words, "That's poor." from two passerby women who commented on my linen surcoat and tunic. I know I'm a novice so I filed the snark in my "Ok, this outfit isn't going to work" folder. I wished they've stopped me and told me WHY my garb was poor instead of just walking away.
Give constructive advice and be someone novices look up to instead of being a drive-by snark that people look down on.
Edit: And thank Goodness for the internet and forums like this. :)
We went to an SCA event this weekend. I was disappointed to see that 80% of the people there had garb that was bought from a single person's website that I immediately recognized.
Many of these people in the past have....well... led others to believe that they made their own garb.
I still feel that if you make the effort to make your own garb, even it is not 100% H/A, at least its uniquely yours. That in itself makes it good.
I'm not knocking people who buy their garb. Not everyone sews and buying garb supports those people who really like to make garb and keep Faires going by providing merchants for the Faires.
But if you're going to brag on your costuming skills, at least make your own stuff.
I keep hearing such horrible stories in the SCA and it makes me blush! I have been part of the SCA for a long while and in 3 kingdoms so far...I have had issues but it made me work harder to make my garb better to become a better seamstress. Heck I went to my first SCA experience without a stitch of garb! We had to go to gold key and I was worried that I could not find anything in my size, and it was welcomed with not 1 but 16 different gowns to try on! I embraced the dream right then and there. I am sorry that you did not gain that experience, and I wish I could slap some sense into some of these supposed SCAers who have lost their manners and chivalry. Perhaps it was in their other garb!!! Poo on them! Please? Don't think this is the norm for SCA it is not.
Also and this is not an excuse but perhaps a reason for their behavior, I have been the 'welcome' wagon for many years in my old shire and principality, there are those who come, and think you are their personal garb-slave. I had a lady, who claimed to know how to sew (basic) I showed her my 2 hour gown and how to adapt it to fit her and I went with her on a shopping excursion, showed her good fabrics in her colors which she refused and picked up knit with printed designs, and polyester, but it was her choice, and helped her pin and cut out. While at my home, she saw a Venetian I was working on with a friend for myself, and promptly said she would wear it! She wanted me to give it to her because she was new and even tried to put it on over her clothing to see how the fit was. Can I say I was utterly nonplussed? I could only stare and then? My friend said ....Cilean has been helping you for 3 weeks now to get your garb together, while working a full 60 work week....the lady just smiled and said I could have her fabric in recompense. ..... We found out later this lady had some mental issues.... But she tried to take my dress with her when she left! She did steal pins, pin holder and 2 patterns as well as a basket that I had in my living room. I guess I should be glad my sewing machine was being used because she mentioned she really liked it! LOL
Or? One lady? She had 4 children and was new so we all chipped in to help her create her families clothing. She then proceeded to whine about the skills of the people who came over to her home for 4 weeks, and helped her get her entire family outfitted!!!! One lady only hand sews and she complained (To others) how slow she was! She was from Faire and had faire peasant gear but wanted 12th Century Welsh (!).
It can make you a little jaded to want to get to know people, because you don't want to be used. I am not condoning their actions, but perhaps they had had some of these experiences. In fact I no longer make clothing for people outside my family and immediate friends due to the utter lack of gratitude that people show. I know those who sew for a profession often get that response as well.
I have yet to make a Pennsic, I make my own clothing for the SCA and for Faire is because I know what I want....and now I know how much effort it is to create and bring it forth. I was born in PA, and I know how the Humidity works on my body, perhaps if I lost weight down to a size 12 it might not be so bad? But I doubt it, I throw up and can breathe with the heat/humidity.
As for Cheap Fabric:
I am one who tries to get the deal, I love getting an entire outfit out of a couple of drapes for .99 and some .25 per yard trim! But I do love how a silk taffeta farthingale feels and sounds when you walk. Of course? I got that silk taffeta for $5.00 per yard!
I don't go to Britex in San Francisco, because while they have wondrous fabrics so are their cost!!! I don't go to Michael Levine's in LA for the same reason. While they do have some awesome things? Their prices makes my head hurt!
I am on every fabric sites coupon emails, I watch fabrics for the sales, because I have the ability to fly? I can go to the deal!
I just scored Silk heavy Taffeta for $11.56 per yard (Home Fabrics Summer Sale)for the Henrician Tudor Overgown and 7 yards of silver on silver Fleur de Lys fabric for the Kirtle.
Cilean
No, not all SCAnadians lack manners and chivalry. I've learned in my four years in the SCA that only a small handful are that way - just like RL. ;D
I love the SCA and the vast majority of the people who play in it. Always helpful, always fun, always there for you when you need them. Even though I don't go to Guild meetings I have gone to shire meetings and archery practice, which are more important to me. Still haven't gone to court - that is next on my to do list.
My prior experience was just one pertaining to this discussion. It is not the way I view the SCA in general - that's for sure!
Meh I have had a bunch of run ins with SCA folks and some are fabbo and the others made me not want to get involved with the group..
But as for the snarks all I can say is that there is alot of people that need to keep their mouths shut! Anyone who is gonna tell a little girl in her princess dress anything bad deserves a boot in the tush!
"did you ride your horse here this morning?"
"have you used a shower lately?"
"is there a visa card in your purse and american dollars as well?"
"do you want to bite me?"
That's how I like to deal with a garb snark.
I love this thread! I've never actually been spoken to about the historical inaccuracy of my garb, nor have I been complimented on my workmanship. I know for sure that my garb is mismatched and only partially historically accurate. :-\ I have been reacted to as though I were a character/employee instead of a playtron, which I found entertaining. And my children certainly enjoy seeing Mama all dressed up.
I will admit to having snarked, and I'm ashamed of it. :-[ I failed to recognize that, like me, many other playtrons probably can't afford to be completely historically accurate, whether because of time or money (or in my case, both). So I vow from now on to refrain from making snarky comments to my companions about others' garb, and instead to use it all as a learning experience. After all, how else will I know whether my thoughts about color combinations will work out in actual garb unless I observe what everyone else is wearing? And how will I understand whether it's worth my time to cartridge pleat unless I can look at gowns that are so constructed and compare them to gowns that are not so constructed?
It's all a learning experience.
For me? It has made me want to do better, as I said the Laurel who did the drive by? Now shows my gear to others. I can't wait to see the face of the seamstress who claimed the SCA did not have standards, my sons have correct gear with capes and hats so does the Hubby sans cape he would not wear it drat it all, and my MQoS gown and I am using the blue silk velvet forepart with the 6 months of beading on so it will flash and show in the light. They both in their nastiness raised the bar with me and made me work harder, I needed a good kick in the butt to finish many of the projects I have had sitting about in my craftroom. Now many are done, and I have had renewed energy to complete our 12th Night clothing!!
So for me, while it was nasty that the ill willed and stupid need to vent their ire and show how they do not espouse the chivalric or even to be civil to a new person....it made me a better creatrix of garb.
Cilean
Quote from: flidais on August 19, 2008, 08:25:35 PM
"did you ride your horse here this morning?"
"have you used a shower lately?"
"is there a visa card in your purse and american dollars as well?"
"do you want to bite me?"
That's how I like to deal with a garb snark.
Oh... I like that, can I steal these from you?
Quote from: Acuisla on September 11, 2008, 11:28:50 AM
So I vow from now on to refrain from making snarky comments to my companions about others' garb,
Does it count as being Snarky if you are only speaking to your companions and not directly to the "target" of said Snark?
Quote from: PurpleDragon on September 16, 2008, 03:52:31 PM
Quote from: Acuisla on September 11, 2008, 11:28:50 AM
So I vow from now on to refrain from making snarky comments to my companions about others' garb,
Does it count as being Snarky if you are only speaking to your companions and not directly to the "target" of said Snark?
Yeap. That's basically the definition. It's commenting on how other people look in a quick jab type of way.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on September 16, 2008, 03:59:32 PM
Quote from: PurpleDragon on September 16, 2008, 03:52:31 PM
Quote from: Acuisla on September 11, 2008, 11:28:50 AM
So I vow from now on to refrain from making snarky comments to my companions about others' garb,
Does it count as being Snarky if you are only speaking to your companions and not directly to the "target" of said Snark?
Yeap. That's basically the definition. It's commenting on how other people look in a quick jab type of way.
Oh, I understand the basic definition, but most of the examples given in the thread have been when someone made a comment directly TO the offended person. I was wondering if it were still considered being a Snark if the "victim" were not aware of said comment being made. ;)
I would say yes, if it was said in an unkind or derisory way... Probably not, if given as an example of something not historically accurate, or what not to do if in an educative discussion of the differences between historically accurate and not, and degrees of accuracy and how to achieve them. Context and manner of comment are very important.
Quote from: Kate XXXXXX on September 16, 2008, 04:09:00 PM
I would say yes, if it was said in an unkind or derisory way... Probably not, if given as an example of something not historically accurate, or what not to do if in an educative discussion of the differences between historically accurate and not, and degrees of accuracy and how to achieve them. Context and manner of comment are very important.
I agree 100%, it's not what you say, but HOW you say it. Personally, I see no real reason for someone to get snarky over HA of a costume or not, if you are NOT doing a reenactment of some historical event but are having fun dressing up at faire, who cares? You paid you money to get in just like everyone else right?
Quote from: PurpleDragon on September 16, 2008, 04:12:05 PM
Quote from: Kate XXXXXX on September 16, 2008, 04:09:00 PM
I would say yes, if it was said in an unkind or derisory way... Probably not, if given as an example of something not historically accurate, or what not to do if in an educative discussion of the differences between historically accurate and not, and degrees of accuracy and how to achieve them. Context and manner of comment are very important.
I agree 100%, it's not what you say, but HOW you say it. Personally, I see no real reason for someone to get snarky over HA of a costume or not, if you are NOT doing a reenactment of some historical event but are having fun dressing up at faire, who cares? You paid you money to get in just like everyone else right?
Ummm, no. Honestly, I've seen gorgeous fantastical creations at faire and then I've seen something that couldn't even be worn into a 7-11. Being snarky has nothing to do with whether it's historical or not. It has to do with how someone can pass by a mirror and think that is appropriate.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on September 16, 2008, 04:53:07 PM
Quote from: PurpleDragon on September 16, 2008, 04:12:05 PM
Quote from: Kate XXXXXX on September 16, 2008, 04:09:00 PM
I would say yes, if it was said in an unkind or derisory way... Probably not, if given as an example of something not historically accurate, or what not to do if in an educative discussion of the differences between historically accurate and not, and degrees of accuracy and how to achieve them. Context and manner of comment are very important.
I agree 100%, it's not what you say, but HOW you say it. Personally, I see no real reason for someone to get snarky over HA of a costume or not, if you are NOT doing a reenactment of some historical event but are having fun dressing up at faire, who cares? You paid you money to get in just like everyone else right?
Ummm, no. Honestly, I've seen gorgeous fantastical creations at faire and then I've seen something that couldn't even be worn into a 7-11. Being snarky has nothing to do with whether it's historical or not. It has to do with how someone can pass by a mirror and think that is appropriate.
I guess the whole problem I have with snarking is the whole 'judgement' thing. Unless it is a SCA fair, then whatever the patron wants to wear is fine with me. Their
entrance fee gave them the right to enjoy themselves, and if the garb they came up with doesn't meet my standards...well, that's my problem, not theirs. I'll keep my opinions to myself. If it is so inappropriate, let security handle it.
Merry
I can't remember which thread it was in, maybe it was this one on an earlier page, but the point was mentioned that if vendors at faire use shiny polyester, sequins, glitter, and other "unhistorical" fabrics and/or trims, then one can't blame a patron for buying it.
The vendor will say he is only providing the type of outfits that sell. The patron who buys it may feel it's the most beautiful thing they've ever seen. And in any case, if the person wearing said garb is having fun, well, I say "good for them."
As long as it's street-legal, not one person who attends faire has the right to snark anyone else's garb. Whether the person hears it or not, it is mean-spirited. There's not a phrase "mean people suck" for nothing.
*gets down off soapbox and goes back to the world of peace, love, Woodstock*
I second that emotion, Renee!
Anyone remember the whole Seinfield episode where Elaine gave another lady a bra because she needed one and then the lady was walking down the street wearing only the bra? That entire episode was about snarking from the snarks point of view. And yes, I've seen people wear highly inappropriate things. To put it further in perspective: Bikinis are street legal. It doesn't mean that they should be worn to a opera.
Also, has I have said again and again, snarking has nothing to do whether it's "historical" or not. It has to do with whether or not it looks decent/good/sane.
I'm am EXTREMELY guilty of not being HA at faire and can't say I've heard anyone snark me. (Not that I care the least) I was actually really surprised at the responses we got on our "can tab" outfits. Even from employees of the faire. I actually expected to get some mean comments, sneers or whispers, but nope. Just compliments and lots of folks asking how we made them. We had a blast!
My man won't garb. He is Cambodian and says that in itself is not HA at faire. Haha That is his choice, though. I tell him, "Good, than you can carry the camera and haggle with the shop keepers. Then,at least you'll fit with the stereotypical asian persona. Hmph" :) I feel we have more fun at least attempting to dress up. Like someone said, if you don't "you not in on the joke".
I'd love to work toward a more HA garb. But, like many of you have said, we just can't afford HA. Even at the $100 range, at this point. Furthermore, I know very little about historic dress to invest that much in correct fabric. And, to make things worse for me, our sewing machine is crapping out on me. But, my mom, daughter and I all wanted to dress up last year. So, that is how I started creating things out of can tabs of all things. They have to be the farthest thing from accurate! But, I know this. I'm doing it because it is fun to dress up for faire. Honestly, hearing all the comments others here have endured make it harder fo me to want to attempt anything even close to HA for fear of horrible failure. For now, I'm sticking to my historically-inspired-modern-upcycled-cantab-fantasy-creations. :) Besides, they are wonderfully comfortable. It's all in fun.
I loved this statement:
Quote from: Miranda on July 31, 2008, 09:13:37 AM
And I'm probably going to be "Virtually Kicked" for what I'm about to say.
I make garb. I'm an artist. My medium may be wools, linen, silk, and thread, but I'm an artist just the same. And you know what happens when you exhibit your art? You are going to meet people who like it, and people who don't. That is the thing about art...not everyone agrees with your choices. And outspoken people are going to tell you so. The only thing you can do, is know why you made the choices you did, and suck it up, and know you are in good company.
I'm not sure what I do is "art", but have to enjoy putting it on display anyway.
"To each their own."
I admit I love beautiful HA garb and I love to see it worn at faire. I also know that my garb is far far from HA....did I say far? I don't have the patterns or really the skill to make a HA ladies gown. Besides, I wear my garb because I want to convey the idea that my character is a Lady. Not a wench or a nun or a pirate. (Though I do have an ongoing pirate in the making). So to convey that I wear certain types of garb. That really is all the game is about to me. Like kids playing dressup. You put on a cape and you are superman and none of the other kids even question it, cause it's about make believe and having fun. If you were lucky enough to have a mom who could make a real superman outfut, well, cool! Hopefully you don't think that makes you a better superman than the kid with the garbage bag tied to his pajamas.
One more story. (I'm a chatty Cathy this morning). I was at faire this past Labor Day. Now I usually wear a simple gathered Chemise with my "Ladies" gown. I decided I wanted to change up my look and enter the world of partlets. I understand a real lady of the period would wear that type of "shirt". Well I waited too late to decided to buy one and discovered that all the sites tht sold them required a month or longer to fill the order, so I just found a shirt I thought would work and made some modifications to it. I liked it. It was pretty. Not Ha at all. So what. I had the idea when I got to faire I'd buy a proper one. Well I went to a well know shop and was shown one (70$ yikes!) My knockoff cost 12$. So as I'm looking at it and considering the pros and cons the shop keeper said, (looking a bit pointedly at my own, ) well, this partlet has the proper shape. True. I suppose it did, but it was also a full blouse,( weren't they usually sleeveless?) so how is that any more proper than what I was wearing? I smiled and thanked him and vowed to spend my money elsewhere. HA! (Bought the cutest little probably not HA hat ever. HA! HA! Mr. partlet man. :)
The only person I need be concerned about is the head of the Costume Dept. As long as she's happy and signs of ye olded reckoning card, that's all that matters.
Strangely enough, Sparky (faire name Lightning) the scooter horse has never been snarked--at least in my hearing.
I wear Birkie London's because they support the weight and I've never had a stone bruise while wearing them. They are obviously right and left foot, but they're ok with Costuming.
The other side is that I don't snark the garb of others. I sometimes find it amusing and frequently find it wonderful. Folks have made an effort. Whether it's period (HA) isn't my concern. If someone has gone to the effort, they'll probably return.
The only time I'll discuss garb is when asked by another participant, or by someone who wishes to become one. But I need to keep in mind that it's Costuming, not me, who needs to be satisfied and I'll generally refer them there.
Repeat my main theme--our job is to entertain. We've done our job when patrons/playtrons want to come back. If we can throw in a little education, so much the better. Just don't do it at the cost of driving folks away.
Of course, I'm talking solely from the Faire side. I've never belonged to the SCA although I've visted friends at Estrella in the past.
Snarking to me is dissing someone elses garb/street clothes/whatever. It's never ok, it's always rude. If the snarker doesn't like what they see...look the other way.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on September 16, 2008, 09:20:07 PM
Also, has I have said again and again, snarking has nothing to do whether it's "historical" or not. It has to do with whether or not it looks decent/good/sane.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. What looks good to you may look horrid to me, and vice versa. That doesn't mean that either of us should judge the other person.
The only time I feel that comments should be made -- or thought about -- someone else's garb is when the wearer of the garb asks for suggestions. And then, the comments should be done thoughtfully and constructively.
All of us here on this forum love faire. Or else we wouldn't be here. But we are inclusive, not exclusive. It's always great to get more and more people addicted to what we like! But we all had to start somewhere. And if a newbie hears, or even perceives, that they are being snarked, well it shows all of us in a really bad light. And that ain't us. Right?