I'm looking for a good place that I can find a small dagger that a monk would carry as well as a good place to find crosses for my robe belt and one to go around my neck. I've herd a good place to find crosses is Hobby Lobby but I looked there and didn't find any I liked. ;D
Unless you are a real Monk, I would never dress as anyone of any holy office. It's highly offense to a lot of people. There have been discussion regarding this on an email list I belong to and it's just far better to go as a peasant or other character that is not of the cloth.
As far as I know (and I don't claim to know everything, but just what I picked up working in a weapons booth for two years), it would be very unlikely (possibly forbidden) for a monk to carry a dagger, or any other edged weapon. You'd need a mace, flail (invented by monks, I think), morningstar, something like that.
Good places to find crosses are craft stores and large retail stores near the holidays. It won't help just yet, but when Wal-mart puts out their Christmas stuff, they usually have some really good looking fabric crosses in the ornaments selection.
Basically, I have a nice wooden cross attached to a long set of wooden beads. Nothing fancy that I found on eBay by searching under the terms of "Catholic" or "rosary". I believe it was found by searching under "rosary". I also have a wooden tankard. We're supposed to be representative of the poor (so I guess my huge digital camera doesn't count as being in costume). Maybe if you get some type of Catholic reliquary or triptych to carry. Don't go for the public whipping yourself with cat-o-nine tails (that's jus' wrong in front of the kids). If you big-n-fat like me, you could pass for a Friar Tuck type of character.
Friar Rohn
You could always make yourself some crosses. Go to a building supply store or hobby store near you, and get a length of half inch by half inch trim. Cut it into lengths, the upright should be about one and a half times as long as the cross piece. Join the middle of the cross piece about a third of the way down from the top of the upright using a trenched joint (below) and wood glue.
(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc164/RobertArmstrong/woodjoint.jpg)
Put a very small islet in the top to pass your rough twine through to go around your neck, or through your belt.
You can get different types of wood, or use different stains for the ones on you belt for variety.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on July 28, 2008, 05:54:51 PM
Unless you are a real Monk, I would never dress as anyone of any holy office. It's highly offense to a lot of people. There have been discussion regarding this on an email list I belong to and it's just far better to go as a peasant or other character that is not of the cloth.
I would disagree with this, if you dressed as a modern monk, sure, but I have talked to monks who had no issue since it was a psuedo-historical presentation. Quite fitting given we also have a bad bishop floating around.
However, back to the topic at hand, I'd agree that unless you are doing a knight dressed as a monk sort of thing, the dagger would not be what you'd carry. Maybe a stout walking stick, but that would be about it. Otherwise it just doesn't fit, and, as you said, there aren't really any places to carry it. I'd also agree with the homemade cross thing, although you could also get two reasonably straight pieces of wood and lash them together. I did that some time ago.
My friend who does a monk just makes his the day of the faire. He goes around and finds two sticks from the camp site, uses some cotton twine/rope and makes a cross. It makes him look more humble. He carry's a quarter staff, and rope belt with a wooden tankard and a loose weave pouch for his mundane things. He also wears basic leather sandals. He found somewhere a hand made woven wicker hat with a leather strap.
Works for him.
Thanks for the help you are correct a monk would carry a mace. Now I just need to know what type of a mace an monk carried is it one with chains and a ball or just the type of one with a club handle and spikes in the end? The reason I was asking about a dagger is that I was told by someone at one time that monks carried a small throwing type dagger. But after more research I think a walking stick and possibly a mace would be a better idea for my monk type character.
Having your monk be proficient in the use of a quarterstaff would eliminate the need to carry additional weapons, since that would just double as a walking staff. :)
We have a cardinal, at least one nun/Mother Superior, the Protestant Reformer and last year, another character, don't recall his name, at MNRF.
I made a monk robe for a friend of mine, out of linen. Then there's a guy known as DB...
the thing with a ball and chain is a flail, and I would try and avoid the mace with spikes in it, because the point of not having a knife was because they are not allowed to draw blood. a stought walking staff I think is the best representation for a monk.
other accessories, a heavy white cord to belt your robe with. the tail ends of it should hang down your right thigh. its more then just a belt, it was a symbolic item that (still) represents a vow of celibacy when worn over the robes.
then since your on the road, a second cord that acts as a functional belt that you can hang from items like a coin purse, prair bead, possibly a carrying case for scrolls or documents.
note about rosaries and prair beads, don't wear them around your neck. A cross can be worn around your neck, but not the prair beads. if you want something else other then just a cross, then look up Scapulars.
I don't think people should take offence aslong as you portray the character properly, or with a bit of research to back up what your doing.
I'll try and dig up the discussion that happened over on another forum regarding "religious office" characters. The problem is that you are not in persona 100% of the time. There is also the problem with people thinking you really are of a holy office. I've seen places that have started to shy away from characters that say they have a holy office (priest, nun, monk) because of many issues involved with drunken people and mistaken identity. There have also been far too many incidents of personas "making fun" of the church by there "portrayals" of their character. At best, those have been distasteful to downright offensive.
I'm not saying anyone on this board would act in an uncouth manner but you cannot control the people around you, especially if they are drunk...unless you are going to start a drunken mob. But that's a different story. The portrayal of religious offices brings up too many issues that simply cannot be worked out easily.
Are there faires that have professional actors going around saying they are cardinals and the like? Yes. However, those are greatly decreasing and the big difference is in training. Personas are for fun, the actor gets paid. The actors also tend to be very (safely) flamboyant about the personas making it obvious that they are not of a religious office. The same is not true for most playtrons.
I've heard many stories and I'll try to dig some of them up tonight but, for the most part, I am very against anyone dressing in a religious office that they do not hold or even, in some cases, believe in.
pretty much everyone would carry an eating dagger which you would use only for that purpose, hence the name ;)
isabelladangelo if you have the feeling that anyone dressing in a religious office that they do not hold or even, in some cases believe in. I believe very much in religion. If you feel this way about people being drunken trouble makers then why should a person dresss up as a King or others who were real people? I've been to our faire and we have a friar, and cardinal and both have made the charcter act the way they should. But any person playing any character who wants to drink and cause trouble can make any person in History look bad.
Isabella, are you personally offended by people wearing outfits that represent holy orders, or just afraid of offending others?
most people at fair realize that someone in a costume are just that, someone in a costume. for many, the presona is for having fun with, and for many others, its about teaching others about the time or a way to show reverance of the people.
what makes this any diffrent from someone dressed in a Templars robe? or garb representing any number of historical groups? is it that they are still around? then how is it diffrent from a character of a tradesmen? I portray difrent members of teh guilds as they were in the 1500's and have met people who still belong to those guilds. despite them being more cerimony then anything else, they have no issue with it.
Here's at least part of the discussion from another list/MB I belong to:
Person 1:
On the Authentic SCA web list you recently posted that while you are not offended by people saying, in an SCA setting that they are Catholic, you are offended by people playing someone of Holy Orders. My question to you is off topic no SCA specific, so I have emailed off list. I also work as an actor at our local Renaissance Faire and am looking at playing a preist or a chaplain. It is my intention to play the character straight and with respect, but I am not a Catholic so I am worried about unknowingly offending. At this time the role is still up in the air and not finalized, so your input would be helpful.
First, would you be offended simply by someone playing (as an actor) a preist? If so can you explain why.
Second, can you think of any situations where I might run into problems and give offence without knowing? Just so you know I may be required to do a simple Mass without communion, but with the liturgy and readings, in Latin.
Thank you for any help you can offer, I won't be offended if you choose not to say anything as this is a personal matter.
Person 2:
I would be offended if someone, actor or not, played a Priest or other
highly religious charater who was not one. Now, if it was in a stage
setting where it is clear that the people are actors, no, I would not
be offended. The difference is this: In the theater, typically, there
are scripted lines the actor/ess must adhere too. In improve, such as
the Renaissance Faire, there is not such guidelines. Because of this,
the actor/ess is far more likely to either a)be mistaken for a
playtron b)be mistaken for a real person of the cloth and/or c) say
something out of turn that shows disrespect to the holy office.
I have yet to see someone playing the part of a priest/nun/monk
actually act in accordance to the holy office. Most of the time,
they are half drunk, cursing, and otherwise acting in an offensive
manner. If not, they are propergating mistaken beliefs regarding the
Church or "hamming up" the idea of indulgances. Basically, they are
making fun of the Catholic religion in a very distasteful way.
Techincally, no one who has not had Holy Orders or been given
permission by the bishop can conduct mass. You can conduct prayer
groups or readings, but not mass. To do so would go against the
Church teachings and, again, mock the Holy Orders.
I realize I might sound harsh but I've seen way too many people think
it's "funny" to stumble around in a habit and act in such a way as to
embarress themselves and those around them. The clothing is a
physically representation of surrending yourself to God's Will. To
act as a drunken slut while wearing that clothing is to basically say
"screw you" to God and to those who know he exists...which isn't a
polite thing to do.
Now, I seriously doubt, from the sounds of your email, that you'd join
in the drunken slobs that I've seen far too many times, but it's a
good idea to keep in mind that the clothing is a far bigger
representation than that of just an occupation.
I really hope that helps to clarify my position. If you have further
questions, feel free to ask. I know my tone tends to come off as
snobbish to some people via the web but I'm really far more laid back
than it sounds. :-)
Thank you for your response,
Considering your response and several others that I asked similar questions I have decided that if I play any religious figure, it will be a lay chaplain or deacon. I am a minister (just not Catholic) and would treat the role with the seriousness that it deserves. I think that a counter point to the antics of the puritans would be welcomed by some people. As you suspected I have no intention of playing the uproarious drunkard (nor even the quiet drunkard)
Theatrically the group I am with are all Catholics and we are ambassadors to England, which being protestant is short on Catholic preists. Realistically they would have brought someone with them to hear confession, say Mass, and God forbid give last rites. While a deacon can perform some of those functions a chaplain can do them all.
I hope that this sort of figure would not cause too much offense when played straight and not for laughs.
Thank you again sincerely for you thoughful comments
I've, unfortunately, lost a lot of the original thread but basically, he was saying that there were a lot of people telling him "no".
Yes, I do find it personally offensive when I see someone portraying a holy order of my religion. I would no more want to see someone portray a Buddhist monk who isn't one than to see someone portray a Catholic priest. It has nothing to do the fact that these are positions still around as much as these are positions of honor and status.
Follow your heart,dress as you see fit!
I mean, people dress as nuns or monks for halloween, too!
If you try hrad enough, you could find something offensive to someone, somewhere with any idea!
I've seen planty of people dressed as monks/nuns, and none of them were followed by angry mobs!
Oh, and please provide us with pics!
I agree with RenRen. Faire is an escape from reality. If you want to be a monk, then go for it! Heck, I'm playing a Lady Knight this season, which is a bit "controversial" in and of itself.
Have fun with your garb!
I've dressed as a religious figure for the past several (by several I mean five) years. I've never had anybody AT FAIRE say anything to me.
My friend who is a super orthodox Catholic seminarian told me that I was forbidden from entering a Catholic Seminary because I dress like a Cardinal...but whatever. It is...I suppose...technically against Catholic Canon Law to impersonate a priest. If you are not Catholic, you have nothing to worry about.
If you don't feel you are offending God, then go for it. I dress like a priest because that is the line of work that I am in. I represent God at the Faire. My character is a holy cleric. I don't offend. I represent God quite well, I think.
Oh, by the way, the person who mentioned MNRF earlier...the Cardinal you referred to...was it me? :)
I think that was me that mentioned a cardinal at MNRF. I don't know the name of the person that portrayed him, so it could have been you, although I don't know what you look like on here, as you don't have an avatar. ;D I have a photo somewhere that Sir R took, as the cardinal was walking up by the front. He had short, dark hair.
I think that since the Church played such a huge role in the lives of the people during the Renaissance, even extending to artists such as Michelangelo and daVinci, that this is quite under-represented at our faire. So what about Protestants? Is it ok to portray them or not? The Prostestant Reformation was, again, a HUGE event, which affected the throne of King Henry VIII, to the degree that he left his first Catholic wife Catherine of Aragon and became Protestant when he wed Anne Boleyn. How can that be left out of the time period??
Then there were the crusades, another HUGE event that still affects us to this day. Should we not have knights hospitalers?
When I began researching in 1998, for the first time, the pieces of the puzzle fit together, about where banners came from, the order of worship, the hymns we sing, the candles, the vestments, the paraments used on the alter, etc. I had always wondered about the gap from Christ's birth and ministry to the present way we worship. Now it makes sense to me. :)
I think a person that does a religious character should do so with some respect and some humor. I don't see anything wrong with that. There are always people offended by something and everyone draws the line in a different place.
With my own art, I have one painting of an angel, not the way *I* think an angel looks, but as represented by the Renaissance artists and commonly accepted by most people. People who are not Christians are offended by it, they have made that clear. I also have paintings of fairies and other fantasy type subjects. People that ARE Christians have complained about that being pagan. I have heard complaints about the whiskers on my horse painting. :o You can't make everyone happy. I think if they don't like it, they can just move on to the next shop, no need to complain. I see things at faire that offend me, I just don't complain, I go to something else.
Brother Thomas, please stop by my booth so we can meet! Shop 228.
Thanks.
Wow, I think its scary that people could mistake people at such an obviously costumed event like a Renaissance faire, as a real religious figure. If people are walking around those faires thinking that everyone wearing a Monk robe is a real Monk, then they must think everyone wearing a Gypsy outfit is a real gypsy, and everyone wearing a pirate outfit is a real pirate?
I mean at the faire I have seen, the Friar in his MONK ROBE is getting drunk on wine just before Robin Hood shows up. Later he is wandering the faire drinking. So if the audience failed to see him on stage but see's him walking around the faire doing improv, is he going to be mistaken for a real monk and should therefore be banned from wearing that outfit?
I think people get a little too hypersensitive about things I mean a mature adult has got to use a little common sense and intelligence. I personally don't see an issue with wearing such an outfit, and it never occurred to me that it might be offensive - but I should have guessed that someone would have a problem with it. I mean there is ALWAYs someone who is going to be upset.
I'm actually surprised nobody has started to criticize the implications of the Gypsy fortune tellers, the pagan statues and symbols, or the horns that are sold at these faires...
Quote from: Sir Robert of Essex on August 13, 2008, 10:37:54 AM
I'm actually surprised nobody has started to criticize the implications of the Gypsy fortune tellers, the pagan statues and symbols, or the horns that are sold at these faires...
Second'ed. Your whole post is a good point! *someone* is always going to get offended by what you do.
.
Some people have, but the usual schtick is that in the day it wasn't uncommon to see charlatans of all varieties (including people of the cloth).
I still say if you want to be a monk, be a monk. Although, period-wise, weaponry doesn't make sense. If you want to do something of a more fantasy nature, then knock yourself out. ;D
As to the rest, I'd say this thread has gone off topic, but it is an interesting discussion, perhaps as a thread of its own?
Quote from: escherblacksmith on August 13, 2008, 11:09:55 AM
Some people have, but the usual schtick is that in the day it wasn't uncommon to see charlatans of all varieties (including people of the cloth).
I still say if you want to be a monk, be a monk. Although, period-wise, weaponry doesn't make sense. If you want to do something of a more fantasy nature, then knock yourself out. ;D
As to the rest, I'd say this thread has gone off topic, but it is an interesting discussion, perhaps as a thread of its own?
You're right - and my apologies for contributing to the derailment - lets try to put it back on track! LOL!
Accessories for a Monk - have you considered looking for a Religious supply Store? Or even a Theater Wardrobe place - I know there are many of these in NYC. But if you do an online search for Religious supplies or Church Supplies you'll find a few places that sell online stuff - everything from crosses and holy water, to the belts used for monk robes ( Cinctures I think its called? ) - those cords with the knots at the end.
You might be able to pick up a cross at the actual faire though, they usually have those tents/booths selling jewelry, rings, necklaces etc and I always see at least a few pewter crosses of various designs with them.
For a cross, get your butt to Hobby Lobby! They pride themselves in being a "christian owned store." They have so many crosses that they could fill at least 2 isles full of them. Go into the unfinished wood section, get yourself one, then some leather cording and maybe a few wooden beads, and make yourself a really quick, albeit nice, cross to hang from your belt of neck.
Post pictures of your finished garb!
you could carve yourself one, depending on your financial status (of your character)
No idea if this is period or not, but I know back when I was christian at Vacation Bible school one time we made crosses out of old fashioned nails... it was either 8 or 4 of them criscrossed in a cross fashion and then bound with wire but you could use leather or cord to bind them...
What do you do for a belt do you use a peasant ring belt? Or a rope or something? Can you just get a length of rope from the hardware store or is that too cheesy? And is a rope or cloth belt strong enough to hold pouches and such from it?
I was trying to get a look at the Friar Tuck at my home faire who seems to have a belt and several pouches though I couldn't see what sort of belt it was or if it was indeed rope ?
Ah well - yes a pic would be cool!
I don't know if I have a picture, I haven't done a monk in 14 years . . .
but I used 3 hemp ropes (no more then 1/2" diameter apiece) and braided them together.
Worked quite well. Something not white would work best, or use white and dirty it up a bit.
for the belt itself I've seen several people make belts by braiding together long strips of cloth. depending on how tightly you braid it, it could make a strong belt once you get all the strech out of it.
Quote from: renren on August 12, 2008, 10:44:40 PM
Follow your heart,dress as you see fit!
I mean, people dress as nuns or monks for halloween, too!
If you try hrad enough, you could find something offensive to someone, somewhere with any idea!
I've seen planty of people dressed as monks/nuns, and none of them were followed by angry mobs!
Oh, and please provide us with pics!
Renren, you've said it all!!
Huzzah!