I just had a run-in with a group of people at the pit. They were blaring rap from a vehicle, and when I went over after going to bed and respectfully asked them to turn it down so I could sleep, I was told to do something most unpleasant to myself. After that, a flare up ensued, and I nearly got into a very bad situation. Granted, I'm more than capable of defending myself against two drunk idiots, but there were around ten and I'm not stupid.
I decided to break camp and come on home, since after I went back to the tent they were even more obnoxious. This is unacceptable!
I'm officially voting that the community fire be banned. There are drugs, as a young(she looked underage) woman told me just tonight that she was on acid the night before. There are drunks, as all know already. Being drunk is fine, but these morons aren't respectful of neighbors at all. They stay up all night keeping us from sleep with the drums and yelling and such.
How would a ban on the pit be done? I don't know the powers that be, and need support in this effort if is it to be done.
Thanks all for putting up with my rant. It's been a long night, so all apologies ahead of time.
Isn't there a "curfew"? Most campgrounds have a rule that after "X" o'clock people have to keep noise to a minimum.
A petiton might help saying that you will not be going back to faire till something is done.
I'l be there all hallow's eve. And I will be glad to help.
What happened to the local Sheriff Dept. that kind of polices the area at night. Two maybe
three years ago I saw a similar incident and they were right there taking care of the guy that
was causing problems. They were also stopping people that looked under age and asking for ID.
If you had alcohol in hand and were under age or could not produce ID you were told to dump
the alcohol and move along.
As far as killing the community fire pit, probably not going to happen. For most that attend Faire and camp, the pit is just one of many reasons they go. I'm not sure what you can do to keep this kind of thing from happening again. I guess one thing is not to camp to close to the pit area. I usually
camp in the big open field down the way from the Pit area. Most people that camp in that area are considerate of others around them.
Did these people have a camp site set up or were they just there for the "Party"? If that's the case then there are things that the Faire owners could do to curb such people from being there and causing problems.
There is no curfew or quiet time in the general camping area. However I know the police were around Friday night because some clueless drunk 20 something started trouble and they were fast around and took care of it very professionally. Last couple of season I've avoided the pit area because its turn from a drum and dance circle to just a kiddie drunk party.
I think they need to go back to requiring that you show a ticket to get into the campgrounds. I also think that they should increase the police presence. I would not generally say something like that but the campgrounds have gotten outta control. Over the past few years there have been incidents of increasing severity each year. As far as the fire circle being one of the reasons people camp, I don't believe this to be true anymore. My biggest suggestion for all that do not already camp with a clan is to camp near one and away from the fire circle. I camped out next to the celtic rouges last year and had no trouble.
I was in the McLotofus area. Most of the drummers had left to their camps, and then loud, crappy rap came screaming into the air. Then some kind of country, then more rap.
I was polite, but was summarily told to go eff myself. I just wish I'd had two of my old friends with me from the old days; it would have been over quickly. There were no police to be seen, it was just me against ten or so, so I just bailed for home. Some sort of noise control after midnight would be nice, but unlikely. Some people need to get up early, ya know?
Showing a ticket needs to be required to get in for sure. I think these were there just for the party. I don't know if any of them had a camp; no campsites were close, so who knows.
Quote from: eldatari on October 13, 2008, 08:54:47 AM
I think they need to go back to requiring that you show a ticket to get into the campgrounds.
They were asking people coming in on Thursday and Friday if they had tickets, and had already turned away a half-dozen vehicles on Thursday night.
QuoteI also think that they should increase the police presence. I would not generally say something like that but the campgrounds have gotten outta control.
I fully agree with this. Temporarily assigning one or two police officers from the surrounding communities (on a volunteer basis, of course) to the Todd Mission PD and/or the Sherriff's Department would do wonders to curb the obnoxiousness. Doing that can increase the police presence from two or three to as many as fifteen or more. Perhaps even get them on in an off-duty security position, paid by Faire Management.
QuoteAs far as the fire circle being one of the reasons people camp, I don't believe this to be true anymore.
It's not. The true fire circle enthusiasts that actually do go to the fire circle are eventually driven away by the hordes of drunken, high idiots grabbing at the dancers, stumbling about in a drunken stupor, backflipping off of the edges of the fire, and throwing glass bottles or kegs in and around the fire. Most of the true enthusiasts wind up sticking around smaller, more personal campfires just to avoid the crap.
My personal opinion is that stupid RV parked next to the fire circle with the sign that says "Show your hooters for Jello shooters" needs to go. It's obnoxious, it's wrong, and it sends out the wrong message regarding what goes on at the campgrounds, exacerbating the problem. If it wasn't for the fact that it's highly illegal, something rather untoward would have happened to that RV this past weekend.
Some people were suggesting that we, as Rennies, should go out in force and retake the fire pit, forcing the bad elements to leave. While I like the sentiment, it's a mound of trouble waiting to happen. People who are high and/or drunk are unpredictable and highly dangerous to deal with. Even trained police officers with years of service always have backup and are ready to draw a weapon if the situation warrants it. If we were to essentially force a confrontation, then we would have a crowd of people capable of doing things they wouldn't do otherwise (mob mentality and all that).
I would suggest an alternate form of dealing with this matter.
I agree it would be nice and cut down on the problem if they required tickets as well as camping fee to camp. Two of our group couldn't make it and we offered the tickets to some kids camping near us and were told no thanks we're just here to party. They turned out to be nice kids and caused no problem other than being a little clueless like not having a hammer for the tent spikes and not knowing how to set up a tent.
Glad to hear nothing has changed in the 2 yrs I have been gone...... :-\
All I have to say is good luck on King George ever getting more security out there, it might take a few dollars out of all the money he makes every year. It would be great if they went back to showing tickets, it might cut down on some of the problems. Unfortunately it has gotten out the rennies had a great party going on out there, so all the local punks with nothing else to do have decided to join the party. So as you can see they have no respect for anyone out there, and also like stealing any booze they can get their hands on.
I think us rennies need to ban together and take it back from the danes if the local fuzz won't keep the idiots away. I saw a bunch of morrons out there too. stupid drunks crowding the fire and doing back flips off the fire. I even saw on jackass (not Steve-o) try running across it and slipped and landed right in the middle of it. he rolled out un scaved (unfortunately) but this is the type of crap that needs to stop. that and the "show us your tits for a jello shot" signs. what the hell is that all about. there used to be a time when the ladies would do that on there own at the fire when the room was givin for them to dance around. if you wanna see tits, then go to a strip club.
Here's another thought / idea about how to control the camping / fire circle issue. Put up a fence and a second check point between the parking and the campgrounds. As much as I hate to say it becuase I do this myself when I just want to visit with McLotofus a lot of the danes come in on Saturday when there's no one at the gate to check for tickets or to take money then they set up camp and they're there for the party or they go into faire and then camp for that evening. If there was a fence around the entire campgrounds with a "walking only" entry / exit point (to get to and from faire grounds) and "drive in" entry / exit point that was manned ALL hours of the day and night where you HAVE to show your ticket aand you HAVE to pay to get in it would stop a lot of the partiers. Or at least that my opinion.
Quote from: LadyJessica on October 13, 2008, 10:51:32 AM
Here's another thought / idea about how to control the camping / fire circle issue. Put up a fence and a second check point between the parking and the campgrounds. As much as I hate to say it becuase I do this myself when I just want to visit with McLotofus a lot of the danes come in on Saturday when there's no one at the gate to check for tickets or to take money then they set up camp and they're there for the party or they go into faire and then camp for that evening. If there was a fence around the entire campgrounds with a "walking only" entry / exit point (to get to and from faire grounds) and "drive in" entry / exit point that was manned ALL hours of the day and night where you HAVE to show your ticket aand you HAVE to pay to get in it would stop a lot of the partiers. Or at least that my opinion.
This sounds like it would work, but it might increase the camping fees a bit to cover the salary of the gate guards. Sounds like it might be worth another $2 or so per site to ensure a better time being had by all, though.
Perhaps a good way to start would be to draft a petition to the Faire management stating the grievances and suggesting some means of rectifying the situation, or at least asking that it be looked into.
tuppense...
Quote from: Macintyre on October 13, 2008, 10:47:37 AM
I think us rennies need to ban together and take it back from the danes if the local fuzz won't keep the idiots away.
just get several on here to get black "SECURITY" T-shirts, camo paints, and large Mag-Lites. When someone becomes unruly, show up in force (4-5 of ya) and kindly ask them to comply with your demands or be escorted to the nearest exit. Most will not call your bluff! ;)
Quote from: Sir Moostifer on October 13, 2008, 11:12:59 AM
Quote from: Macintyre on October 13, 2008, 10:47:37 AM
I think us rennies need to ban together and take it back from the danes if the local fuzz won't keep the idiots away.
just get several on here to get black "SECURITY" T-shirts, camo paints, and large Mag-Lites. When someone becomes unruly, show up in force (4-5 of ya) and kindly ask them to comply with your demands or be escorted to the nearest exit. Most will not call your bluff! ;)
Yes, but the ones who do can have you arrested and can successfully sue the Faire itself.
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 13, 2008, 11:13:55 AM
Yes, but the ones who do can have you arrested and can successfully sue the Faire itself.
on what grounds? you won't officially work for the faire.
but like i said, the local fuzz needs to do something first. they can't do anything without the consent of the owners of the camp grounds because they are hired in to do security. if anyone has the number to the owners, i'll call them up and make the complaint so as to hopefully avoid these type of problems in the future. the storeis some people hear about what goes in the camp grounds.....i mean really now.
I personally avoid the drum circle all together. I'm happier drinking and telling funny stories about DS getting lost somewhere than I would be trying to avoid getting groped at a fire pit.
Wait a minute, that happens at MY fire too...
Huh, I guess it's just a familiarity thing!
Checking for tickets needs to happen!
More police officers too.
I think a petition for that would have the signatures of every camp out there.
That's a lot of fed-up folks.
We could start the petition right here.
We set up the "Briga-burbs" way back semi-near Greenflame and still had a bit of idiocy to deal with.
Friday night we were visiting some cool young neighbors from Austin and having a nice little Irish jam.
Suddenly, a big ranting, frothing at the mouth belligerent drunk came charging out of the dark and began challenging everyone (womenfolk included) to a fight. After threatening to kick the worlds weed puller for a couple of minutes, his campmate dragged him away.
We had constable Charlie over there in a few minutes and he explained to the surly drunk that you get one warning and then you go to jail.
The drunk guy came by the young Austin camp and apologized over and over the next morning, he seemed semi-OK, looks like he just sailed away to blackout island for a bit.
About 15 minutes later on Friday night, screaming and fighting started up a little ways on the other side of our camp.(yay)
It was a group of a half dozen 20 year olds (one was pregnant) having a punch up that went on and off for hours.
They kept it among themselves but it was annoying to listen to.
Enough people finally told them to shut the hell up or the cops would come sort them out and they toned it down.
This charming group wore their caps sideways and pants halfway down their weed puller and of course did not go into the fair.
When they left Sunday they had deliberately broken almost every bottle they brought and left them strewn around their camp along with all their trash and a still burning fire.
The field of glass was one of the most f*cked up things I have seen out there.
We put the fire out, raked and shoveled up the broken glass, bagged the trash and left a caution note for the groundskeepers so they would not slice themselves up.
Later Sunday somebody dumped their fire pit onto to the pile of trash next to the port o cans, creating a smouldering pile of melting plastic and burning garbage, nice.
We put that out too.
But OTHER than that, we had a kick weed puller weekend:-)
we went out saturday evening...and the drum/fire circle was chaos and wholly unpleasant. the drums weren't consistent. there were inebriated thugs screaming at everyone. they were not allowing dancing to take place. all stopped when the fire twirlers attempted to perform. drunks galore. the spirit of the drums/fire/dancing gives way to mass-alcoholic mentality. faith in the beautiful spirit of the circle is dashed against the realities of what most are bringing to the experience.
I agree with the petition idea whole heartedly!! I wonder if anyone on these forums is good with legal wording? I imagine that the incidents we mentioned from this weekend ALONE have potential lawsuit written all over them unless they get curbed. Maybe coming at it from that perspective would be helpful to management and make them more likely to clean it up for their own benefit!! I stopped by the drum circle for no more than 10 minutes both evenings and was wholly disappointed by the caliber of people there and the drugs and drunkenness!!
Just for a tad bit of humor here, my neighbors were a bit more colorful!! Saturday night as soon as the sun started to go down we heard smacking sorts of noises. So we peeked around the corner and saw a lady tied to a tree in her under pants getting whipped by a large man. Later in the night, there was another lady fully naked with red welts all over her back getting flogged. And by 2am or so, they had multiple people holding 1 person down and lashing them with fire poys nice and flaming!! They thankfully were not loud, but they were certainly interesting!! They also did not go into fair at all, but they were older folks and never made any trouble.
If the campgrounds don't get under control a lawsuit may come that could bankrupt the entire faire.
Quote from: LadyElizabeth on October 13, 2008, 12:05:35 PM
I agree with the petition idea whole heartedly!! I wonder if anyone on these forums is good with legal wording?
I'll see what I can do. Petitions do not have to be legally worded, per se, but they do have to clearly outline the intent of the petition.
QuoteI imagine that the incidents we mentioned from this weekend ALONE have potential lawsuit written all over them unless they get curbed. Maybe coming at it from that perspective would be helpful to management and make them more likely to clean it up for their own benefit!! I stopped by the drum circle for no more than 10 minutes both evenings and was wholly disappointed by the caliber of people there and the drugs and drunkenness!!
That's why I never go.
QuoteJust for a tad bit of humor here, my neighbors were a bit more colorful!! Saturday night as soon as the sun started to go down we heard smacking sorts of noises. So we peeked around the corner and saw a lady tied to a tree in her under pants getting whipped by a large man. Later in the night, there was another lady fully naked with red welts all over her back getting flogged. And by 2am or so, they had multiple people holding 1 person down and lashing them with fire poys nice and flaming!! They thankfully were not loud, but they were certainly interesting!! They also did not go into fair at all, but they were older folks and never made any trouble.
See, this I have no problem with. From what you describe, they're a group of people doing their own thing and minding their own business. Not a problem at all. If they were out at the fire pit or were making it blatant by doing so in a more public area, then that's where the line is drawn.
Quote from: blue66669 on October 13, 2008, 11:37:10 AM
I personally avoid the drum circle all together. I'm happier drinking and telling funny stories about DS getting lost somewhere than I would be trying to avoid getting groped at a fire pit.
Don't make me play the can-can song...
QuoteWait a minute, that happens at MY fire too...
Huh, I guess it's just a familiarity thing!
That's because we lurvs our Empress!
as some of you know, i am starting a new faire over east of austin in early spring of 2010. i want a very wholesome, powerful and soulful campfire/drumming/dancing experience as part of it. would surely like some ideas and policies to establish from the onset to better ensure the fire circle will not become what it has out at trf presently. like the concept of the ticket requirement; but that's still not compeltely sufficient. www.swf-faire.com
my forst exposure to the fire/drum circles decades ago was one of the truly beautiful and enticing experiences into renfaire life. bound to be able to recreate that magic.
Quote from: Sir Moostifer on October 13, 2008, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 13, 2008, 11:13:55 AM
Yes, but the ones who do can have you arrested and can successfully sue the Faire itself.
on what grounds? you won't officially work for the faire.
True, but the Faire can have you arrested for impersonating a security guard. The laws are pretty stringent about that sort of thing...
Quote from: rengypsy on October 13, 2008, 12:21:45 PM
as some of you know, i am starting a new faire over east of austin in early spring of 2010. i want a very wholesome, powerful and soulful campfire/drumming/dancing experience as part of it. would surely like some ideas and policies to establish from the onset to better ensure the fire circle will not become what it has out at trf presently. like the concept of the ticket requirement; but that's still not compeltely sufficient. www.swf-faire.com
my forst exposure to the fire/drum circles decades ago was one of the truly beautiful and enticing experiences into renfaire life. bound to be able to recreate that magic.
Ticket requirement
Zero Tolerance policy for drugs, criminal behavior, and idiocy.
Security guards patrolling and blatantly challenging anyone they suspect of being underage
Lord Dragonspyre, I agree that my crazy neighbors are not the sort we are trying to keep out. I simply added my story for amusements sake only!
I think the underage drug use, rude behavior, theft, and dangerous behavior alone is what needs to stop!!!
A petition of any kind would be great!! I was just saying that legal terminology might be more convincing since many of the stories from this weekend alone could have very easily become lawsuits! And the last thing I want is for TRF to stop the camping or to go out of business cause of some horrid kid killing themself or someone else at the fire pit!!
I say start filming it and email it to the TRF offices so they can actually see what is going on.
that's not a bad idea.
You could do the filming incognito and if asked, say it for a ren fair documentary for class and to pretend the filming is not occuring.... You'd have to do hours upon hours of filming though to truly document all the stupid stuff that's happening there!!
TRF is many things to many people.
To most of us it is a place of fellowship, camraderie, music, magic, beauty and tons of good old fashioned stupid fun.
TRF is also a business and additional security or checking for tickets or other measures costs money and affects the bottom line.
However, in my opinion, the intoxicated thuggish crowd who are not there for the fair are driving away people who are.
Many good folks won't come back and will share their bad experience with their friends & families, tarnishing the image of the fair we all love so much.
Other campers, thanks to lack of sleep, will only spend part of the time (and money) in the fair that they planned because of all the late night drama, loud rap, thieving and bovine poopie.
The non fair crowd, while generating revenue of $10 a carload, also leaves the biggest messes which costs money clean up, help fill up the port o cans which costs money to clean up and generate most of the criminal activity which costs money to clean up.
All that and the loss of goodwill makes the non-rennies a drain on the bottom line in my humble opinion.
Encourage your house members to call TRF and respecfully express your concerns.
TRF Phone:
800-458-3435
Email TRF at:
TRFinfo@texrenfest.com
Lets get some of the old magic back!
Ds, We rolled in Friday afternoon/evening and no one asked us to brandish proof of ticket purchase....
On Friday I took Master Dillon to the fire, he wanted to see the people throwing/twirling fire and within about 10-15 minutes of being there we saw flapping boobs....not attractive AT ALL...and I decided it was time to go when someone threw the bottle of...crap, I can't think of what it's called...the stuff you spray on coals to start the grill....anyway, he threw that into the fire, so we left. (my mind is still addled from sheer exhaustion)
Honestly, I think the best way to deal with the fire circle is simply not to go...if enough of us don't go, eventually the entire circle will be filled with problems that will HAVE to be dealt with. I would really hate for one of our own to be injured trying to deal with anything going on over there...
Ok, seriously, why do we even bother with this fire? It's obviously drawing the wrong crowd, and really- we COULD do something different. Why not have another fire, somewhere in a clearing- far from where everything happens. Let the crazies have their fun around the "pseudo-circle", while we go and have the REAL fun elsewhere.
Blue, I think most camps do this already...similar to the lovely fire Zaubon provides us with. And I agree....we should not go to the crazy fire, plus having a camp fire makes it easier to 'police' who joins and who doesn't.
Had Dillon not asked me to go see the fire throwers I would not have walked down there....I will do just about anthing that darling young man asks me too. ;D
Kinda think that is happening now Blue. I know Friday I stop for maybe 10 minutes before deciding it wasn't worth my time and moved on to friendlier places. Sat didn't even step off the road took one look from the road and just continued walking.
If the trouble makers (don't what to call them crazy since I don't want to insult the majority of my friends) would stay confined to the pit there wouldn't be a problem. Problem is they spread out and cause trouble all around the camp grounds.
OK, well, I think the problem is that we never will get "that" circle back. I know that most clans have started their own circles, but that does nothing to promote the togetherness and family of clan relations. That's the part of drum circle I loved- being together with the other clans and rennies, just getting to have fun. But now we're being treated like we're animals on display at an interactive zoo. No thanks buddy, I get enough of that kind of thing from my own children. I want a fire, a BIG fire, with rennies. Lots of rennies, dancing, singing, drumming. All together, as one, like it used to be.
Hmmmm, maybe we should start planning a "rennie mixer"...
Does the Camp at your Own Risk language on the site and the little hang tag really protect them from liability?
It seems as though they're using that as a reason to not have to fix these sorts of problems (drugs, violence, etc)...
I mean, God forbid my husband hadn't been as quick thinking as he was... or even if we hadn't been awakened by the idiotic plight of yet another person stuck in the sand pit behind us... my step-daughter would've been seriously or fatally injured... Is there really no recourse in that sort of (albeit hypothetical) situation? Frightening to think about if so.
Anyone have a 'sample' email they'd like to share? I'm afraid if I type one up myself it will be far too verbose to actually get read.
We almost went to Patron camping on Saturday night to visit with friends, boy am I glad we didn't. One of our friends had the crap beat out of him by some drunken thugs. This guy is a life-time rennie and one of the nicest guys I know, in fact he emphasized to me that he had a great time until the last 30 minutes. There definately needs to be additional security.
Quote from: knarlyknot on October 13, 2008, 03:59:35 PM
We almost went to Patron camping on Saturday night to visit with friends, boy am I glad we didn't. One of our friends had the crap beat out of him by some drunken thugs. This guy is a life-time rennie and one of the nicest guys I know, in fact he emphasized to me that he had a great time until the last 30 minutes. There definately needs to be additional security.
That's terrible. I really hope this gets reported to management and police.
I was under the impression that the Green Flame Clan were trying to provide a place for the true rennies to gather and enjoy music, dancing, fire twirling and camaraderie.
I personally have not been to the drum circle in several years. Its just not worth it anymore.
I agree that a solution needs to be found to keep out those "campers" who are spoiling the experience for everyone else. We camp because we want to have fun and socialize. We should not have to spend our time worried about which drunk is going to start a fight or steal items from camps. As a new father (shes two years old), I will not tolerate anyone looking even remotely suspicious around my tent. I know everyone in my camp and everyone in my camp knows my daughter and I am confident that they will back me up if some one threatens her safety.
Requiring tickets at the gate is the only sure fire way I can think of for the Friday campers. If they don't have a ticket, it should be sold to the campers right there at the gate. Jessica is also on the right track. There needs to be better separation between the camps and the parking lot. Its just too easy for anyone to come in Saturday and pull right into the campground. From those people, the faire doesn't even get the meager $10. From that alone they are losing money. Something I'm sure George would not be happy to learn (assuming he is unaware of it).
Extra Security is un-needed if you can prevent the annoyances in another way. Make it harder for them to gain access. Right now anyone can walk in - destroy our camps - and be home in time for remedial math Monday morning. If we find a way to make the camp inaccessible to them they will go away on their own.
And thats my humble opinion.
Michael
This is a sample petition
To the Texas Renaissance Festival Management,
The Texas Renaissance Festival, while a fantastic and beautiful place to visit, has a problem that needs to be addressed.
We, the Undersigned, do hereby set forth this petition for increased security and the removal of certain undesirable elements from the campgrounds. The campgrounds have long been a hallmark of the TRF experience, a place for patrons of the Faire to relax and commiserate with other like-minded individuals in a communal atmosphere.
Unfortunately, that tradition has been sullied by the influx of people coming to the campgrounds simply to have a place to throw an out of control party and get intoxicated and/or high, and lose all sense of responsibility. This trend is leading to less and less enjoyment of the campgrounds to the point where people do not even wish to come camping
There have been several incidents and worrisome trends at the campgrounds, some of which are detailed below:
- Bottles have been thrown and broken at the Fire Circle, endangering the bare feet of the dancers present and forcing them to leave for safety reasons,
- Females have been inappropriately touched and/or propositioned and kept from enjoying the Fire Circle,
- Explosive items have been thrown into the Fire Circle, including but not limited to a beer keg and a bottle of charcoal lighter fluid,
- Intoxicated and/or high people have been back flipping off of the fire at the Fire Circle, one of them actually falling into the fire itself,
- There is an RV that parks next to the Fire Circle with a sign that reads "Show Your Hooters for Jello Shooters,"
- There are campsites where the people there broke nearly every glass bottle they had and left it there on the grounds along with their garbage,
- There was an incident where a camper dumped their still-smoldering firepit ashes onto a pile of garbage, risking a major fire.
- There are people who scavenge what they want from other campsites during the day,
- There have been longstanding campers who have been accosted and assaulted by multiple assailants for no reason whatsoever other than the fact that the assailants wanted to beat someone up,
- There is drug use rampant about the campgrounds,
- There are people sneaking into the campsites without paying and bragging about it,
- The Security that is in place is inadequate. More patrols and more Security personnel are needed,
Please feel free to comment and add your own bits to it
Very well worded... I assume you don't mind if I modify and use it as an email to the powers that be over there in George's official headquarters... ;)
Quote from: Elnarii on October 13, 2008, 04:36:45 PM
Very well worded... I assume you don't mind if I modify and use it as an email to the powers that be over there in George's official headquarters... ;)
Actually, I'm putting it together as a petition for people to directly sign, and then I'd mail it in to the main office, signatures and all.
If you were to send the same thing, even modified, then the petition would lose it's effect.
I would also add that even some faire patrons will lose the will into going the the faire itself.
Who really do you think keeps the faire going. It's not the day trippers. It's the playtrons. We are the ones that keep the shops open. Sure there alot of dane's coming and buying boose just like the rest of us. But would the faire still be enjoyable if there wasn't crazy looking swords, and cool looking leather goods. It would be a barren wasteland.
Easiest solution is to fence in the camping from the parking. and require everyone to have faire tickets to camp. And move the camping gate up the road to combat traffic jams.
If they didn't have a place to camp, I wouldn't go at all. I can't afford the gas plus a hotel.
I will tell you guys a story. when I was a younger still in high school . There was a campground that had a unmanned ticket booth. To camp, it was required to put in 5 dollars in a drop box for each person camping over 12 years of age. We never paid, and we used to bring 4 wheelers and guns and boose out to a public camping area. We would get drunk and haul butt all night driving the 4 wheelers in a privately owned public camping area. Were I grew up this was the place to party when we got the chance. because there was no one ever to supervise us, and we didn't have to pay.
Now I wouldn't do such a thing but at the time its what we did.
Well just about a year ago, a kid a few years younger than me was found dead, he had wandered off falling into the river after drinking. Well now the place it closed for good. Some say since it was a privately own area that the kid's family had sued. But I'm unsure of what happen.
And another place like that called the slabs, had a similar accident and its now fenced off.
Something needs to be done. Because I'd hate to see camping gone, or even the faire failing because of a lawsuit.
I understand now... sorry... lol...
So when and where can we sign? Don't forget my signature.
A interesting detail about the fire pit... my first renfest experience involved arriving too early (and not understanding the whole campground setup, etc)... napping in the car in a parknig space until dawn...
The sound of the drums struck a chord in me... had I attended the fire pit back in 2002, I might have seen a dose of the original glory... sadly it wasn't until last year that I finally braved the campgrounds and saw the current state of the drum circle... :(
I would LOVE to see it back to what I have heard that it used to be... (maybe because I didn't get to see the good version of it... lol)
Quote from: Tanyor on October 13, 2008, 04:47:46 PM
I would also add that even some faire paytrons will lose the will into going the the faire itself.
Who really do you think keeps the faire going. It's not the day trippers. It's the playtrons. We are the ones that keep the shops open. Sure there alot of dane's comming and buying boose just like the rest of us. b
As a vendor, I'm going to have to disagree. Most of the shops do
not depend upon playtrons to stay in business. True playtrons make up a minority of the audience. Most of the patrons come to faire but they don't actually do faire. they come out once or twice a year, see their favorite shows, eat their turkey leg, do some shopping, go home. Other than some of the specialty shops, we depend on
those people to make money. What we try to do is provide enough of a positive experience that a) they want to come back & b) maybe join us.
Quote from: rengypsy on October 13, 2008, 12:21:45 PM
as some of you know, i am starting a new faire over east of austin in early spring of 2010. i want a very wholesome, powerful and soulful campfire/drumming/dancing experience as part of it. would surely like some ideas and policies to establish from the onset to better ensure the fire circle will not become what it has out at trf presently. like the concept of the ticket requirement; but that's still not compeltely sufficient. www.swf-faire.com
my forst exposure to the fire/drum circles decades ago was one of the truly beautiful and enticing experiences into renfaire life. bound to be able to recreate that magic.
Every year there is another thread complaining about the drunk/high thugs around the fire pit breaking glass and starting fights.
Most Rennie would happily pay a small surcharge, in addition to their Faire ticket, to camp on the Faire Grounds if it meant they could have a safe place to camp as a group. Many many years ago when TRF was further out in the boonies, the fire pit had its share of incidents, but nothing like it is now.
I don't go over to the fire circle. I went over there once last year just to see what it's all about and was not impressed. I'm pretty shy so I tend to stick by the people I know and people who know me. The fire circle is an environment that I do not feel comfortable being around. I have plenty of fun sitting around the McLotofus fire circle with people I know...
I will add however, that the whole thing makes me nervous and uncomfortable because there is always the possiblity that the crap that goes on over there will spread like a communicable disease and invade my zone of security...and endanger my son and other children...
I would not hesitate to sign the petition...
Quote from: LadyTrinn on October 13, 2008, 02:24:02 PM
Had Dillon not asked me to go see the fire throwers I would not have walked down there....
It's a real shame that we can't take our kids to see the fire throwers/twirlers/dancers because we are afraid of what they might see on the sidelines or that they might be injured... >:( >:( >:(
Let me play Devil's Advocate here:
I'm TRF Management. This is my livelihood. I enjoy the faire, but go home to sleep in my own bed every night.
I receive a petition from a small percentage of the 300,000+ patrons who will attend this year asking that I put a stop to problems on the campsite. I can acknowledge that there is a problem, and spend time and money in an attempt to correct it. I'll make some people of those people happy, but I'll also make some mad. Over all, most people won't be happy. Some will think I'm being too strict, and others will think I'm not doing enough.
I can refuse to acknowledge the problem, and hope it sorts itself out. After all, the biggest portion of my patrons don't camp. Besides, I don't make any money off of the campers. Ten dollars per car load barely covers the cost of servicing the Porta-Potties. Perhaps the signs denying responsibility will protect me from liability, after all, I didn't ask them to camp there. At least I don't have to spend any time or money on the issue. This still leaves me with some angry customers, but you can't please everybody.
If I'm going to make people mad, I can shut down all camping completely, and guarantee that there is no more problem, without spending a dime. That will protect me from any liability even better than those signs and the statement on back of the tickets. It won't take much effort either. After all, this is private property. I might even save a little money, since I won't have to maintain the Porta-Potties, or clean up all of the trash that's left behind every weekend. Not to mention the risk of a campfire getting out of control and burning the whole faire down. Scarborough doesn't allow camping, and they seem to be doing pretty well...
Devil's Advocate mode off.
If you're going to present a petition to TRF Management, I suggest that you offer suggestions on how to correct the problem that will satisfy most of the campers, and motivate Management with the possibility of more money. Whatever you propose, the initial investment in time and money should be low, and the return on investment high. Offer enticements to improve things. Otherwise, the safest and easiest option is to eliminate the camping. Problem solved.
I wish I had some good suggestions. I truly miss the way Patron's Camping was. I would love to be able to sit around and enjoy some good food, good music, and good conversation, without dealing with the shiny happy people that are ruining it for all.
Randal
Quote from: Element of Air on October 13, 2008, 05:53:58 PM
I feel that the petition has a wonderful start but it does not feel as strongly as it should. I think before we submit it that it should have a better use of words.
That's why I posted it now, so that I can get a large amount of input into this.
QuoteIt feels too young at this point to hand into corporate for TRF. They are legal people dealing with a legal situation and I think the petition needs to have more of a solid sound to it.
Well, I did write the whole thing today in the span of 15 minutes, so it's really nothing more than a rough draft right now.
QuoteMy Significant other is a writer. would it be OK with you, Lord Dragonspyre, if I were to ask him to look it over and see if it could be worked on then repost the changes here for everyone to see?
That's why I put it up, but let's get some more suggestions on what to add before refining it.
May I suggest not slamming the security we do have. That job can't be easy....
Also, I stand by my earlier statement....if we don't go to the big fire, the problem will eventually take care of itself...maybe not this year or next but it will happen. I would really hate to have camping across the board taken away as a solution to this issue...(not that I don't think you did a great job on the petition DS, it sounds good...I just don't think thats the solution)
I really wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a huge bust sooner or later. That would remedy the problem for a while at least.
Even though I'm not camping this year, I am reading all the threads about the camping experience, in hopes of learning things about the camping experience in preparation for my first time camping at a future faire in 2009 (hopefully prior to TRF, but certainly TRF if nowhere else).
I would love to be a part of what I am guessing the drum & fire circle used to be like. I have a very low tolerance for rap/hip-hop noise (I refuse to call it music, reserving that for melodic sounds actually pleasing to my ears) and would not have handled that incident very well at all, were I there. That, combined with the observations here, add up to this: I am glad I didn't make a more aggressive attempt to acquire camping gear and camp at least one weekend at TRF this year.
As far as TRF goes, I am one of the lucky ones; I live close enough to TRF that commuting instead of camping is a feasible option if it really comes down to it. However, someone (and I'll be darned if I remember who) told me when we were preparing grounds for that faire that didn't happen, that camping is a part of the experience for him, even giving me a shocked look when I mentioned I didn't camp. So I do see joining the camping scene as one more thing that separates the mundanes from the true rennies, and as something I do want to be a part of at least some of the time.
I definitely have an interest in helping to at least identify, if not fix, the problems next year. I have no problem with signing a petition, but I have a feeling that may not be enough.
I would like to think TRF wouldn't kill the camping completely to "solve" the problem. There *is* a KOA Kampground on TX 105 between FM 1774 and I-45, I think just west of Montgomery. I just saw it on the way back Saturday, and why I even remembered seeing it is beyond me. Of course, they probably want more than $10/vehicle/weekend.
After what Randal said. I scared.
Hrm. Maybe moving the camping check in closer and out of the way of the day tripper traffic. Charge 10 or 15 per vehicle with those who have tickets or willing to buy tickets there. but do this friday and saturday.
I really think if they just relocate the check in a little farther back to get out of the way of the day traffic.
Because come to think of it most of the "shiny happy people" ( nice Randal ) show up around Saturday evening. and I've seen them even set camp in the parking lot. And Enforce the windshield sticker.
Or we just bare with it and make chuck wagon circles like they did in the past to thwart Indian raids.
Oh an a quick fix for coolers is to put on a lockable hinge.
Or we can get special boots made with daggers attached and we can start kicking tires till they get the point. Haha only kidding I think.
There is a way to stop a lot of the problems, but nobody will like it. Most of all the problems are caused buy kids and under 25 year olds who come for the GREAT TEXAS Camp out, it's the BIG PARTY. I only go to the Fire Pit only because I have to walk by it to go to the other camps. So here is my two pents worth. Close the fire pit, no more. And go back to the days of you have your own, that way YOU can run the little hooligans off. NO one under the age of 18 who is NOT accompanied buy Parant or Legal Guardian. Now comes the bomb! Camping fees increased to $30 dollars per person, yes I know that hurts for some one who has a big family, but I'm driving over 500 miles to come to TRF, and I'm willing to pay it. If they did all this things that would put a BIG dent in the problems they are having. A lot of the thug kids would stop coming, and so would most of the people who are there only to camp out and party.
So, what do ya do, no matter which way you go your going to step on somebody's toes? And as I see it management, make a Little more money out of it and might go for.
I concur with Dona Catalina. While reading this thread this morning I thought that maybe making the campgrounds a "private club" might be an option. For a nominal fee, say $10 each person would receive membership. But membership would come with rules and stipulations, such as you screw up and get security called on you one too many times and you lose the priviledge. George gets more money and hopefully we weed out the unwanted at the same time.
But making it a privet club, sounds nice but they too will pay 10 dollars to get a membership, so they can come party, so you havn't stopped anything.
Then raise the price until you reach the point that we rennies will pay but they won't.
Only thing is that I don't think the enforce the mirror tag. And most of the shiny happy people show up while we are at faire. So they don't pay squat.
They just drive threw the parking lot to the camp site.
Paying 30 would just eat us alive. I'm sure there not paying. I've seen them even set camp up in parking lots with fires and their car's blasting rap or techno.
I was one of those kids in high school, Not at trf but we had a camping place and you paid by dropping money into a drop box. we didn't pay.
It was a place to get drunk and make fools of ourselves without supervision. And we didn't get give a rat shiny hiny about other campers.
Quote from: Sir Moostifer on October 13, 2008, 11:19:13 AM
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 13, 2008, 11:13:55 AM
Yes, but the ones who do can have you arrested and can successfully sue the Faire itself.
on what grounds? you won't officially work for the faire.
In Texas it's "Impersonating a Peace Officer" and it's a felony.
there are some good and bad ideas being thrown around here. but randal's post was the most sobering.
what about making people buy tickets to the faire as well as pay for camping? didn't that used to be the situation in the past (i've heard it mentioned here before)? i know for a fact that the huge group of ravers that camped next to us last year had no intention of going into the faire. seems that might get rid of em. and if it doesn't, then the faire will make money off of them regardless.
I remember having to prove I had tickets at the camping gate, or buy them there if I didn't, before there was a charge for camping. Since paying to camp, I have never been asked to show my tickets. I think initiating that rule again would do quite a bit in keeping the unsavory's out....not all of them of course, but a fair amount. I believe it would be a start.
I'm still undecided. It was an unpleasant incident. I was on a rant.
Still, management needs to get a firm hold on the insanity there. It would be a great time for all of the clans to get together at a great fire and socialize. Why do we need to put up with punks? I'd gladly kick the bejeebers out of one, even two or three, but I'm not willing to go to jail for it. TRF needs to get a handle on the situation, plain and simple.
This is a critical situation, and needs to be handled in a stern manner. Raise my cost a bit, fine. Require a ticket to get in, fine. gate/fence off the camp, fine. Something needs doing. I'll gladly sign a petition if it's worded properly and there is support from all of us.
JMO
Also, I never got checked for a ticket going in. I don't know who was turned away, but I wasn't.
If your gonna require a ticket to get into camping, you better be ready to sell them at the camping gate. Mind you it will never happen considering how much money they would lose.
90% of the time I don't go into faire. I camp because my clan needs a cook and my friends work/playtron inside and then come out afterwards. Are you so ready to cast out those of uf who make the place better just to get rid of some of the problem children?
And on top of that your ideas of requiring a ticket won't stop the "bad crowd" from getting in. They will just end up dropping their friends off in regular and hiking their one to two tents in, or sneaking in, whereas the good people (I include myself in good people for this particular instance) won't break the rules to do so.... now you've kicked out some quality people while still allowing the trash in.
Alot of comments here are bordering elitist. Is it really worth it to hurt the people you know and the people that can't afford to go in but CAN afford to come camp, socialize and make the outside experience better, just so you don't have to change how things work for you?
The answer that hurts none of the original rennies is simple, but nobody is willing to make the change or take the effort upon themselves, instead wanting TRF to do it.
Organize.
You have a problem with ravers camping nearby, great, so everyone needs to get together and arrange to park ALL vehicles in a block pattern around a specific designated area where ALL clan and faire friendly groups will set up. Now you have a large buffer of vehicles between us and the raveer crowd. THEN, they can't come into our camps and do what they want. The police will stop that... in their own camps they can be retarded as they like, but in others, we have the right to say "no". As for the bonfire... crap on it. Who cares if they shut it down... who cares if its full of ravers... if we're all centralized and next to one another instead of spread across all creation... we can make our own bonfire which would have a larger amount of drummers, performers, and civilized folk....
Please don't wait for the "establishment" to fix our problems. We do that now with the government and now we're possibly paying 700 billion dollars to fix things... why would TRF be any different? They want whats best for them, not us.
If we want the problem solved, WE need to do something about it that is within our legal abilities, and then maybe TRF will see that we are trying to fix a problem instead of just asking them to, and help us out.... because so far, all the solutions are pretty much saying "king george please spend or lose money to make us happy".
I'm done ranting. And please, don't take offense... It just ruffles my feathers because we rennies are ALL very capable at doing anything and everything, and WE should be able to fix this without help but we (including myself) aren't putting the effort into it, just the mouthwork.
Scout
Quote from: CahirDochartaigh on October 13, 2008, 08:24:36 PM
there are some good and bad ideas being thrown around here. but randal's post was the most sobering.
what about making people buy tickets to the faire as well as pay for camping? didn't that used to be the situation in the past (i've heard it mentioned here before)? i know for a fact that the huge group of ravers that camped next to us last year had no intention of going into the faire. seems that might get rid of em. and if it doesn't, then the faire will make money off of them regardless.
How about this, campers either:
- pay $40 per vehicle (or the price of a weekend pass plus the base camping fee) minimum, which includes one weekend pass, with the option to purchase more if desired; or
- if it's Saturday night, the cost goes down to $31 (camping fee plus one ticket at gate price)
- pay $10 per vehicle (or whatever the new base camping fee is) with proof that tickets have already been purchased. Either physical possession of the tickets, or the name the tickets are under at will call (checked on the spot).
...with adjustments for Thanksgiving weekend.
Yes, this means all tickets will have to be handled through will call, an inconvenience for sure, and I'm sure someone sees a hole in it as well.
It's too easy for someone to say one of their camping buddies has their tickets. To continue to allow that, might "work" if the people doing the checking simply don't take that as an answer from anyone appearing to be under, say, 25, but I don't want to see real rennies who appear to be that young get screwed over by an unfortunately necessary crackdown. Thus the reason I put "work" in quotes.
If the problem is people crashing the campgrounds during the day while faire is going on, then I think the solution lies in closing that hole. Enforce the mirror tag, either by a manned checkpoint or spot checking vehicles and towing those who are not in compliance.
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 08:43:33 PM
If your gonna require a ticket to get into camping, you better be ready to sell them at the camping gate. Mind you it will never happen considering how much money they would lose.
90% of the time I don't go into faire. I camp because my clan needs a cook and my friends work/playtron inside and then come out afterwards. Are you so ready to cast out those of uf who make the place better just to get rid of some of the problem children?
My plan only requires one ticket purchased per vehicle. That may not be enough to keep the ravers out, but it's certainly a start. I think the same ravers who would have no problem paying $10 will balk at $40+.
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 08:43:33 PM
And on top of that your ideas of requiring a ticket won't stop the "bad crowd" from getting in. They will just end up dropping their friends off in regular and hiking their one to two tents in, or sneaking in, whereas the good people (I include myself in good people for this particular instance) won't break the rules to do so.... now you've kicked out some quality people while still allowing the trash in.
If they don't have the camping permit, their vehicle should get towed. I can only imagine how much the hike to the nearest gas station would suck for them...
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 08:43:33 PM
You have a problem with ravers camping nearby, great, so everyone needs to get together and arrange to park ALL vehicles in a block pattern around a specific designated area where ALL clan and faire friendly groups will set up.
It's a great idea in theory, and I wish you the best implementing it. I have my doubts that will work in practice; I would not mind being proven wrong, however.
I like the idea of a petition, but I do think it needs to be worded stronger. It also needs to point out how doing something about the situtation will not hurt the bottom line, maybe even help it. I will gladly sign a petition. One suggestion about getting it signed would be to have it at the RF meet and greet at the POW everyday.
In my opinion, the by far best ideas are to go back to requiring a ticket to camp and to greatly increase the security presence. My husband suggest that they have a dozen police officers at the fire circle. They also need to card anyone that looks underage and arrest the ones that are. Moving the camping check point beyond the parking area during the day isn't a bad idea either.
It may take a year or two but once the word gets out that TRF isn't the place to have a free for all party, then it will start to calm down.
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 08:43:33 PM
If your gonna require a ticket to get into camping, you better be ready to sell them at the camping gate. Mind you it will never happen considering how much money they would lose.
Scout
They have done it before....in fact, if memory serves, they stopped selling tickets at the camping gate when they started charging for camping.
Oh, I agree that it would be hideous to implement, but alot of the people that have problems with the ravers, have problems because of "their" location.
We camp way out by the rogues because the ravers want to be near the bonfire. It's our solution for "our" camp, but it could easily work for everyone else, but it requires teamwork on the parts of the clans etc... hard to do.
And I don't mind a slight bump in fees. I would rather see a season pass for camping for say 80$ for a vehicle, and then for those without said pass in their window, a 10 dollar per head charge... but thats only if TRF will handle it. But we do all realize theres no way they are going to hire more people to patrol. You gotta admit, none of us are going to stop camping, so they aren't losing our money in any large amount, and if they did hire more people, they've now lost money on the ravers AND the fees to pay more people.... and not only that, good people with a lil bit of substance, or those that may take donations for the lovely loki we all like, have a higher chance of getting busted... that option only hurts King george and us rennies.
My only other solid suggestion to rid the world of TRF from ravers, is WATERBALLOONS. You can't trace them (if your sneaky)... they fry electronics... they make people cold and miserable.... and ravers will never go to the cops about it because they have so many illegal things on them or in them it's sad.
Quote from: LadyTrinn on October 13, 2008, 08:57:24 PM
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 08:43:33 PM
If your gonna require a ticket to get into camping, you better be ready to sell them at the camping gate. Mind you it will never happen considering how much money they would lose.
Scout
They have done it before....in fact, if memory serves, they stopped selling tickets at the camping gate when they started charging for camping.
So... they used to before they realized they could make more money by not doing so... this is kinda just backing up my whole "TRF doesn't care about us... just our money" theme right? :-)
Besides... that would just mean ravers not only pay 5-6 bucks more (woodforest bank) to get into the campgrounds, but THEN they'd be allowed in faire too! Eeeeeew.
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 09:06:34 PM
Quote from: LadyTrinn on October 13, 2008, 08:57:24 PM
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 08:43:33 PM
If your gonna require a ticket to get into camping, you better be ready to sell them at the camping gate. Mind you it will never happen considering how much money they would lose.
Scout
They have done it before....in fact, if memory serves, they stopped selling tickets at the camping gate when they started charging for camping.
So... they used to before they realized they could make more money by not doing so... this is kinda just backing up my whole "TRF doesn't care about us... just our money" theme right? :-)
Besides... that would just mean ravers not only pay 5-6 bucks more (woodforest bank) to get into the campgrounds, but THEN they'd be allowed in faire too! Eeeeeew.
No offense but I wasn't correlating my comment with your theme...I was simply telling you they have done it in the past. I have no idea why they stopped.
I like the water balloon idea. Good stuff. But what if we miss.
I just think we need to take them back by force if necessary. last year wasn't there a kid who got killed along the side of the road just away from faire who was missing for a few days.
I think we just need to tell them to leave in a large group. let them know they are not welcome. If they don't have a vehicle tag warn them to leave or the sheriff will be called. Don't say your security or nothing.
First year I was camping I came back to a tent was being used for a little hide in go seek with body parts. And found my bedding soiled.
told them to get out nicely.
2nd year my folding chairs in my tent came up missing.
But was camping by myself a a few others.
I can't afford a hotel on top of everything else. So I have to deal with camping.
Years ago, before the big bonfire, when I first started camping before I knew anyone out there except the group I was with...Chaos or Camp Boner, I can't remember, had 10x10 tarps set up in a circle with a chained walkway up to the entrance. There were guys walking around it as if they were guarding it and two guys at the front entry way. I could hear the drums pounding and the flames from the bonfire and the bursts of fire as the eaters let go of a mouth full of fuel. I walked up to the two guys and asked what was going on in there and they said it's a private party and I was not allowed unless I had an invite. I think we could do something like this if we all got together.
Quote from: LadyJessica on October 13, 2008, 09:52:01 PM
Years ago, before the big bonfire, when I first started camping before I knew anyone out there except the group I was with...Chaos or Camp Boner, I can't remember, had 10x10 tarps set up in a circle with a chained walkway up to the entrance. There were guys walking around it as if they were guarding it and two guys at the front entry way. I could hear the drums pounding and the flames from the bonfire and the bursts of fire as the eaters let go of a mouth full of fuel. I walked up to the two guys and asked what was going on in there and they said it's a private party and I was not allowed unless I had an invite. I think we could do something like this if we all got together.
Exactly. Dear lord between all of us rennies we have to have at least 3 miles of tarp and enough awnings to hold our own three ring circus.
Oh, and something to be said for the "we'll call the sheriff if you don't have a window tag".... they already steal from us. I can only imagine we'd have twice as many broken windows and missing window tags if we used that line... not to mention maybe they'd call the sheriffs on US then... and well, if we're gonna follow the rules... they should be followed by everyone... (at least thats most police officers thinking)
If we incite them... they will win. They care about the party. Parties are all over. If they get locked out of this one they will move on. We have TRF this time of the year. This is our ONLY avenue for a good portion of the year. Therefore we have something to lose and they don't... they will always be able to one up us when it comes to fighting dirty, because jail, getting booted out, etc... doesn't hurt them in the long run of things. And if we get into it with them... we will be punished too. It's how the system works.
Lord Dragonspyre- Excellent job! Hats off to you sir!
My editing, not trying to be a grammer nazi or anything-
Quoteand commiserate with other like-minded individuals in a communal atmosphere.
"Commiserate" means to sympathize and show pity for.
Suggestions:
Socialize
Share the magic
Drink/get laid(my bad) :D
Recharge
QuoteThere are people who scavenge what they want from other campsites during the day...
Scavenging is not the correct word, the correct word is "stealing."
I've never been accused of being a boy scout but I and most people I know have some really old fashion ideas about honor and that sort of thing.
We share food and drink freely so when I see hear about thieves I become pretty pissed.
Had to think of:(sorry!)
(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/243/inigonh9.jpg)
"You keep using that word...I do not think it means what you think it means" ;D
The problem is not the drum jam.
Brigadoon started the jam "back in the day" when the family camp was the entire camp.
We moved it away from our camp because of the amount of trash we had to pick up every night and because when there was a problem, we had to deal with it.
There were a few problems here and there, even back then, but they were pretty rare.
These years fewer and fewer of us go to the main drum jam and we stay for shorter periods.
We usually jam with our neighbors, "Valhalla" though the camps are merging into "Brigahalla/Valadoon"
Even so problems wander in out of the dark and we don't camp to stand sentry duty, we go out there for enjoyment.
Private compounds defeat the feeling of community that for me is part of the magic.
It's like a small town that pops up full of dear friends that you only see for a few days a year.
(Hence "Brigadoon")
The problem is the non-rennies, not the drum circle.
If we seem elitist, that's fine.
There is a whole world of mundania out there for them.
This bit of the world is all mine, this bit of the world is all yours.
I will keep the flame burning for the benefit of my fellow travelers.
I'll take a drink with any of you.
I'll invite visitors to join our happy little world.
But they have to play nice or they are not welcome.
The reason the undesirable crowd comes out is because it's cheap (or free) and there is little to no police or security. They can camp in the State forest just as cheap but they have rules and enforce them. So they need to up the price and/or increase security. If the price goes up to $10? a person to camp they could afford more security. Or require tickets to camp and those who are camp cooks and such could easily borrow an extra ticket to get in. ;)
Has anyone thought about calling out TABC to raid the campgrounds? In high school they used to get tipped off to many of our parties and were more than glad to crash in.
TABC has made occasional visits...I personally know of someone that was busted last season for selling mead. TABC isn't interested in underage drinkers as far as I can tell, they are more interested in busting people selling liquor without a license.
A TABC raid would also generate negative publicity.
In fact, raids have happened in the past, though on the inside.(Anyone remember Wayne's world behind the showers?)
You could say we want to solve problems not stir up shiner bock because "nobody wins a shitstorm."
Playtron camp is also like the minor leagues for TRF, it's where a lot of fresh talent comes from.
Folks get the bug, then they really really get the bug, then they get a job inside.
I don't think anybody wants to see camping go by the wayside.
Not everyone is going to be 100% satisfied with the petition or how it's delivered but the important thing is that it gets done and the sooner the better!
Also, I have to confess, I like techno music, though probably not right next door.
I also like watching movies out at camp.
Someone used to show "Conan the Barbarian" and would even bring a movie-style popcorn maker.
Other camps would bring chairs and everyone would recite the lines like it was the rocky horror picture show.
Good times.
There was a camp the last couple of years showing "Firefly/Serenity" and "Highlander."
Technology can be fun!
Peacock I love electronic more than most. I can hear a song a usually name the dj or the producer. I prefer it over most other genres. But respect should be considered of others. It's a law in most counties.
But not all night and also fights ensuing and having things stolen or broken.
I don't mind music all night but not when I can feel my tent shaking because of the bass.
I hope I will be out that weekend the petition is being past around.
After alot of thought. A simple solution. Move the camping guard post to one main entrance further back into camping between A21 and B21. Fencing off camping section from parking lot With a tall fence. And also adding a gate that is on near A1 to attend faire with a guard post. And charge fifteen or, but not to exceed thirty dollars per carload. Or five to ten dollars per person but also including a family discount for groups over four with children for a one time fee of twenty dollars.
The raise in fee's would be for TRF benift and also to cover the cost of the new fence and for the relocation and new entry guard posts. and possibility more security.
No checking tickets. As some don't go to faire because of clan cooking duties.
I'm sure most of the shiny happy people are not paying the fee at all. If they do I'm sure it will be smaller groups.
Quote from: Fenster on October 13, 2008, 10:27:43 PM
The reason the undesirable crowd comes out is because it's cheap (or free) and there is little to no police or security. They can camp in the State forest just as cheap but they have rules and enforce them. So they need to up the price and/or increase security. If the price goes up to $10? a person to camp they could afford more security. Or require tickets to camp and those who are camp cooks and such could easily borrow an extra ticket to get in. ;)
Has anyone thought about calling out TABC to raid the campgrounds? In high school they used to get tipped off to many of our parties and were more than glad to crash in.
As a guy who used to hang out with the raver crowd and come to faire... (we were polite ravers... we basically all became rennies) the reason we came had nothing to do with money. The atmosphere is awesome. Firebreathing, drums, lots of lights and places to stumble and explore. Honestly most ravers have more money than your average rennie most likely (they dont buy garb and camping equipment)... they only spend money on drugs etc, and most of your parties in town are cheaper than gate fees or are free (think of the gas to get here). We aren't gonna get rid of them with money. Psh. I know people who save all year just to come to faire and camp JUST because it's like a giant party where they can trip, roll, drink, and frolic.... they'll just save more.
And getting TABC out there will hurt rennies more than it will help. They go after purveyors more than underage. Especially since they can't cart of 75 underage drinkers but they can cart off 10 local "mixers and brewers", and put a serious dent in loki, meade and other fine libations.
The problem is... charge 10 a head... ok. thats a good chunk of change to provide more security... then how much money do they lose when all of the raver types stop coming due to heightened security? Does it equal out?
lets say 1,000 people camp... only 100 are ravers (all made up numbers by the way. someone would hafta plug real numbers to test my logic in all honesty).
10 bucks a head = 10,000 bucks.
We're gonna say on "average" there are two people to each car, so normally they only make 5,000 bucks
"security" usually comes for around 20 minimum an hour, usually more. So lets say 5 new security guards a weekend working 7-7. 36 hours per person friday thru sunday. 180 hours x 20 bucks roughly comes out to 3,000 bucks.
Take out the 100 ravers (because eventually they would all stop coming due to lack of being able to party) and take out probably about 50 or so regular rennies because beefed up security means people WILL get busted for their extracuriculars AND their donations...
Take another 50 out because they usually managed to share costs with people and now don't feel comfortable with losing 10 bucks every weekend (we all know so many rennies come to faire whether they can afford it or not, but they scrape by... sometimes 10 bucks is the difference on making a weekend or not)
Now the gate pulls in 850 campers 8,500 bucks and spends 3,000, only making a total of 5,000, which nets them a gain over how it works now of 0 bucks.
However, you then look at the fact that 100 (minus those who couldnt afford here and there) of those people went into faire, and even some of the ravers did, and your now missing those 150 people that might bring friends and provide advertisement, and you'll also have people complaining about faire...
Yeah... it'll be better for us at the cost of more money, but even if they made a net gain of several thousand, the bad PR, and the lack of "surefire money" (rennies are bound to spend money every weekend they go in)... it wouldnt be worth it to them.
TRF's image is not worth our ten dollars a head. Because their image and their lack of any bad word is worth tens of thousands of dollars that we don't have, or we woulda bought land nearby TRF by now that only rennies could camp on. (always an option 3 ;-) )
Allowing us access to camp is a great way for TRF to make money. Maintaining us at the level people are currently wanting... is a step the other direction from a monetary standpoint, and at the end of the day... sadly... TRF is a business venture.
I still say do the petition, and I'll gladly sign the sucker depending on a few key points... but the money and ALL the outcomes of this decision need to be taken into account.
How many of your friends would go to jail or get kicked out if security did a full sweep of the campgrounds and actually did their job well? I'm just not about this whole sacrifice a few to save us all mindset. And I don't think it's intentional or anything, but people are looking only about the pros of their solutions... there are some serious negatives too.
All I ask is whoever decides to write up this petition, think about what you might be doing to your other fellow rennies just so you can punish ravers and help your group, as a wholes, predicament.
I'd like to see other ways to solve this that involve us (because at the end of the day we can only trust us to do whats right for us), and legal means... I wish I had some more ideas, but it's not an easy topic. Good luck folks!
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 11:54:59 PM
"security" usually comes for around 20 minimum an hour, usually more. So lets say 5 new security guards a weekend working 7-7. 36 hours per person friday thru sunday. 180 hours x 20 bucks roughly comes out to 3,000 bucks.
If you use this number in calculations later, it needs to be more accurate. I get $3600 for 180 hours and $20/hour.
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 11:54:59 PM
Now the gate pulls in 850 campers 8,500 bucks and spends 3,000, only making a total of 5,000, which nets them a gain over how it works now of 0 bucks.
It would actually be a net loss of $100 since the $3000 should actually be $3600.
Now consider this: only four guards, would add up to 144 hours and $2880, and there would be a net profit of somewhere around $620, assuming the other estimates are good. If four more guards don't help enough, I doubt adding one more will solve the problems.
Something else to think about: how much goodwill is TRF losing over this? Word gets out, and they could well get people back that have either quit camping or have quit coming to TRF altogether.
I would be more agressive with the wording. LIke the word scavenging, i would say stealing. I would say that poeple there are being inconsiderate jerks and infrindging on others rights to go out and have nice enjoyable time. just like the when people are talking at the movie theatres, when they talk, they are asked to leave. The same type or rule should apply to the camp grounds, if you're overbearingly unruly, displaying socially unacceptable behavior, and or being a complete degenerate ( as was a majority of the people at the bon fire ) you gotta go.
Or, bing in people that were thinking about camping, but wouldn't because of said people! :-\
Well, it probably won't matter, King George as altimers :( :( and when roles over and dies, his kid's will sell of the place, and it will become a new housing sub division. And TRF will only be a memory. :(
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 08:43:33 PM
You have a problem with ravers camping nearby, great, so everyone needs to get together and arrange to park ALL vehicles in a block pattern around a specific designated area where ALL clan and faire friendly groups will set up. Now you have a large buffer of vehicles between us and the raveer crowd. THEN, they can't come into our camps and do what they want.
We currently do this around our camp area, more so to keep safe our people sleeping in tents, from being ran over in the middle of the night by those crazies getting stuck in the sand or many cases the mud after a rain. We also put up caution tape in those areas between cars, so they do not try to drive thru it at night as well.
Love the water balloon idea too.
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 13, 2008, 11:54:59 PM
Quote from: Fenster on October 13, 2008, 10:27:43 PM
The reason the undesirable crowd comes out is because it's cheap (or free) and there is little to no police or security. They can camp in the State forest just as cheap but they have rules and enforce them. So they need to up the price and/or increase security. If the price goes up to $10? a person to camp they could afford more security. Or require tickets to camp and those who are camp cooks and such could easily borrow an extra ticket to get in. ;)
Has anyone thought about calling out TABC to raid the campgrounds? In high school they used to get tipped off to many of our parties and were more than glad to crash in.
As a guy who used to hang out with the raver crowd and come to faire... (we were polite ravers... we basically all became rennies) the reason we came had nothing to do with money. The atmosphere is awesome. Firebreathing, drums, lots of lights and places to stumble and explore. Honestly most ravers have more money than your average rennie most likely (they dont buy garb and camping equipment)... they only spend money on drugs etc, and most of your parties in town are cheaper than gate fees or are free (think of the gas to get here). We aren't gonna get rid of them with money. Psh. I know people who save all year just to come to faire and camp JUST because it's like a giant party where they can trip, roll, drink, and frolic.... they'll just save more.
And getting TABC out there will hurt rennies more than it will help. They go after purveyors more than underage. Especially since they can't cart of 75 underage drinkers but they can cart off 10 local "mixers and brewers", and put a serious dent in loki, meade and other fine libations.
The problem is... charge 10 a head... ok. thats a good chunk of change to provide more security... then how much money do they lose when all of the raver types stop coming due to heightened security? Does it equal out?
lets say 1,000 people camp... only 100 are ravers (all made up numbers by the way. someone would hafta plug real numbers to test my logic in all honesty).
10 bucks a head = 10,000 bucks.
We're gonna say on "average" there are two people to each car, so normally they only make 5,000 bucks
"security" usually comes for around 20 minimum an hour, usually more. So lets say 5 new security guards a weekend working 7-7. 36 hours per person friday thru sunday. 180 hours x 20 bucks roughly comes out to 3,000 bucks.
Take out the 100 ravers (because eventually they would all stop coming due to lack of being able to party) and take out probably about 50 or so regular rennies because beefed up security means people WILL get busted for their extracuriculars AND their donations...
Take another 50 out because they usually managed to share costs with people and now don't feel comfortable with losing 10 bucks every weekend (we all know so many rennies come to faire whether they can afford it or not, but they scrape by... sometimes 10 bucks is the difference on making a weekend or not)
Now the gate pulls in 850 campers 8,500 bucks and spends 3,000, only making a total of 5,000, which nets them a gain over how it works now of 0 bucks.
However, you then look at the fact that 100 (minus those who couldnt afford here and there) of those people went into faire, and even some of the ravers did, and your now missing those 150 people that might bring friends and provide advertisement, and you'll also have people complaining about faire...
Yeah... it'll be better for us at the cost of more money, but even if they made a net gain of several thousand, the bad PR, and the lack of "surefire money" (rennies are bound to spend money every weekend they go in)... it wouldnt be worth it to them.
TRF's image is not worth our ten dollars a head. Because their image and their lack of any bad word is worth tens of thousands of dollars that we don't have, or we woulda bought land nearby TRF by now that only rennies could camp on. (always an option 3 ;-) )
Allowing us access to camp is a great way for TRF to make money. Maintaining us at the level people are currently wanting... is a step the other direction from a monetary standpoint, and at the end of the day... sadly... TRF is a business venture.
I still say do the petition, and I'll gladly sign the sucker depending on a few key points... but the money and ALL the outcomes of this decision need to be taken into account.
How many of your friends would go to jail or get kicked out if security did a full sweep of the campgrounds and actually did their job well? I'm just not about this whole sacrifice a few to save us all mindset. And I don't think it's intentional or anything, but people are looking only about the pros of their solutions... there are some serious negatives too.
All I ask is whoever decides to write up this petition, think about what you might be doing to your other fellow rennies just so you can punish ravers and help your group, as a wholes, predicament.
I'd like to see other ways to solve this that involve us (because at the end of the day we can only trust us to do whats right for us), and legal means... I wish I had some more ideas, but it's not an easy topic. Good luck folks!
TRF is indeed a business venture, but in my opinion, they are hurting themselves more financially by not doing anything about this problem.
I camped out a couple times with a party of approximately 15 (all mundanes) on average. We didn't know anybody there, and we camped far away from the 'excitement', BUT we still had to deal with idiots from the rave. We all became so annoyed that we stopped camping, and instead of going full weekends a couple times during the season, we ended up going once (and it was only for a day) b/c the hotel costs were too high for many of us. AND our spending inside the faire was cut short (money as well as time - we drove there and back in the same day) So- they had us for one day at $21.00 per person = $315.00 instead of three or four weekends = $1800 plus $30 dollars (three cars) a weekend for camping. We may be a rare instance. However, I have a feeling that a lot more mundanes would be willing to camp and go full weekends at a time if they would take care of the ravers.
Initially, they would need to step up security, etc. After a while, when the crazies discover it's not a good area to have their kind of good time, then TRF could decrease the measures but keep the appearance of them, only really enforcing/picking up on them if it all starts to become a problem again. :)
I think the level of danger out at the campgrounds is worse for TRF's image than beefing up security would be. As the previous post pointed out people have stopped camping because of the current state of the campgrounds.
Circling the wagons sounds like a great idea, but in truth, it will take lots of cars to form a circle large enough to contain all of the tents. How many vehicles will it take to enclose a campsite 50'x50' (2500 square feet, about the size of a nice 4 bedroom home)? Three cars to the side times four sides equals 12 cars. Can you set up 12 campsites in that area, along with a central fire pit? If each tent is 10'x10', that's 100 square feet each, so yeah, it could work. It would be tight, but it could work.
That would prevent someone from driving through the campsite, which was always a big concern of mine, even in the family camping area.
However, the shiny happy people on foot can still wander into your camp. The only way to prevent that is to patrol your campsite and be prepared to use reasonable force to remove undesirables.
There's the catch. What's reasonable? Any police officer will tell you that that depends on the situation. A happy drunk may just need pointed in the right direction and a pat on the back. A belligerent "A-hole" may need a shot of pepper spray, or a taser, and a set of plastic restraints to prevent him from causing any more problems. You've all seen COPS, or shows like it. Every case is different.
The problem becomes one of escalation. Just how far are you willing to carry things? After the event 5 years ago, we know that some people are willing to escalate things to fatal levels. Common sense doesn't even enter into the equation with someone like that.
Go ahead and start throwing water balloons. I guarantee that they will throw rocks right back, hitting innocent people in the process. Things will escalate. Rennies will break out staffs and maces, the shiny happy people will break out tire irons and bottles. Rennies will escalate to swords and knives, and out comes a pistol. BANG! End of camping. FOREVER.
At the very least, we're talking riot. Police cars, helicopters, and camera crews. Again, end of camping.
Scarborough has a "Friends of Faire" program. You buy your membership, and it entitles you to a closer parking spot, free water, and discounts on certain other items. I suggest proposing a "Friends of TRF" program. An annual membership that gives you a hang tag/window sticker that entitles you to park on rows 2-5, gets you four tickets and a small discount on more, and entitles you to camp. Non-Friends pay $25(or more) per head per night to camp and get one DATED tag for their car. The price needs to be high enough to encourage people to go look for a party elsewhere. The annual membership will need to be high enough to keep them from just buying one of those. The key to making this work is that after fireworks, any car left on the grounds without a hang tag/sticker gets towed. No questions, no exceptions.
Yes, some of you will forget your tag, and get your car towed. Showing your "Friends of TRF" membership should allow you one "get out of jail free". Everybody else pays $200 to get their car back.
Enforcement will be handled by Security and the tow truck drivers. No danger of escalation between Rennies and Shiny Happy People. Once a few cars get towed, word will get out that this party has become way too expensive to crash.
Randal
(Stuff snipped for brevity.)
Quote
TRF is indeed a business venture, but in my opinion, they are hurting themselves more financially by not doing anything about this problem.
I camped out a couple times with a party of approximately 15 (all mundanes) on average. We didn't know anybody there, and we camped far away from the 'excitement', BUT we still had to deal with idiots from the rave. We all became so annoyed that we stopped camping, and instead of going full weekends a couple times during the season, we ended up going once (and it was only for a day) b/c the hotel costs were too high for many of us. AND our spending inside the faire was cut short (money as well as time - we drove there and back in the same day) So- they had us for one day at $21.00 per person = $315.00 instead of three or four weekends = $1800 plus $30 dollars (three cars) a weekend for camping. We may be a rare instance. However, I have a feeling that a lot more mundanes would be willing to camp and go full weekends at a time if they would take care of the ravers.
Initially, they would need to step up security, etc. After a while, when the crazies discover it's not a good area to have their kind of good time, then TRF could decrease the measures but keep the appearance of them, only really enforcing/picking up on them if it all starts to become a problem again. :)
This is the kind of thing that TRF Management needs to see. Cold hard numbers. I spent "X" number of dollars before, now I only spend "Y" because of the situation on the campsite. Not estimates of how many people
might stop coming, but facts from people who have stopped, or cut back on how many times they come.
Randal
Sadly, charging a large amount per person to camp will keep away people like us and our friends. We can't afford $75-100 to camp, plus faire entry, food/entertainment.
Ok, this is getting way out of hand. I understand that we don't like the noise. You send a note to management and they'll suggest that you move your camp to Quiet Family Camping so that your delicate sensibilities won't be tampered with. We don't like the drunken teenagers flashing for free booze and ruining our fire circle. JUST DON'T GO!!! When the fire isn't chock full of "rennies gone wild" anymore, and they're not allowed into our private clan fires, they'll go somewhere else. It doesn't hurt my feelings to ditch the drum circle. Not one bit.
Okay, here's a more revised version of the proposed petition. Feel free to criticize (constructively, of course) and make suggestions on what to add, take away, or change:
QuoteTo the Texas Renaissance Festival Management,
The Texas Renaissance Festival, while a fantastic and beautiful place to visit, has a problem that needs to be addressed.
We, the Undersigned, do hereby set forth this petition for increased security and the removal of certain undesirable elements from the campgrounds. The campgrounds have long been a hallmark of the TRF experience, a place for patrons of the Faire to relax and socialize with other like-minded individuals in a communal atmosphere.
Unfortunately, that tradition has been sullied by the influx of people coming to the campgrounds simply to have a place to throw an out of control party and get intoxicated and/or high, and lose all sense of responsibility. This trend is leading to less and less enjoyment of the campgrounds to the point where people have stated that despite camping there for years, they would not want to camp anymore due to the dangers present. Other campers are worried about or even hesitant to bring their children or their friends out to the campgrounds due to the dangers involved.
There have been several incidents and worrisome trends at the campgrounds, some of which are detailed below:
- Some campsites will play music all night long at top volume, and when politely asked to turn it down, will proceed to tell the person asking to perform an anatomically impossible maneuver and then threaten this person with bodily injury,
- Bottles have been thrown and broken at the Fire Circle, endangering the bare feet of the dancers present and forcing them to leave for safety reasons,
- Females have been inappropriately touched and/or propositioned, with the person doing the inappropriate touching not taking "no" for an answer, necessitating the intervention of others to protect the female from assault,
- The crowds pressing around the Fire Circle have pressed in so close that fire spinners and fire breathers cannot perform for fear of getting hurt or hurting someone else,
- Explosive items have been thrown into the Fire Circle, including but not limited to a beer keg and a bottle of charcoal lighter fluid,
- Intoxicated and/or high people have been seen back flipping off of the fire at the Fire Circle, one of them actually falling into the fire itself,
- There is an RV that parks next to the Fire Circle with a sign that reads "Show Your Hooters for Jello Shooters." This is inappropriate, only enticing the bad element at the Fire Circle into further inappropriate behavior.
- There are campsites where the people therein have broken nearly every glass bottle they had and left it there on the grounds along with their garbage,
- There was an incident where a camper dumped their still-smoldering firepit ashes onto a pile of garbage, risking a major fire if not for the timely intervention of another camping group,
- There are people who walk into other campsites and steal what they want at night or even during the day,
- Personal vehicles have been vandalized and even broken into,
- There have been longstanding campers who have been accosted and assaulted by multiple assailants for no reason whatsoever other than the fact that the assailants, in a drunken stupor, wanted to beat someone up,
- There is drug use rampant about the campgrounds, some even being brazen enough to walk into other campsites and ask if other campers have drugs for them,
- There are people sneaking into the campgrounds without paying and bragging about it,
- The Security personnel in the campgrounds do a wonderful job, but the limited number of personnel does not allow them to be truly effective. More patrols and more Security personnel are needed to enforce the rules,
- The longstanding campers are worried about whether or not they should be armed at night, just to make sure their personal belongings are safe,
-
Again, these are only a small portion of the problems seen at the campgrounds. The level of danger at the campgrounds can only hurt the image of the Festival, and it needs to be addressed.
The Undersigned have also compiled a list of ideas to help eliminate these issues:
- Add more security to the campgrounds,
- Identify and politely invite the Jello Shooter vehicle to never return,
- Enforce the windshield placard policy,
- Establish and enforce a zero tolerance policy regarding drug use
- Ensure that those paying to camp have tickets to get into the Festival (to cut down on those there just to party),
Blue, the big bonfire might not mean anything to you, but it means alot to me and others. I don't know how long you've been coming to TRF, but the bonfire was one of the major reasons I fell in love with faire in general!! Loosing the bonfire to the drunken, druggard kids is just sad. I guess changing times comes with changing paces and a change in where we can hang out, but it seems unfair to the mass numbers of true rennies and the smaller number of "party goers". There were alot of good ideas here, but just not sure what management would get on board with or what the clans would be interested in or what would actually work??
Well, I've been going to TRF religiously for the past 7 years, and I once thought drum circle was cool. Then I realized something- I fell in love with the people, not the pile of burning sticks. I can always find my fellow rennies, that's why god invented cell phones and clan banners. If you honestly think that TRF management doesn't know what's going on out there, then you mustn't understand the nature of the beast. King George has his ear to the ground. This is his baby- he knows what's up. He knew well enough to give us a quickie mart, AND a taco stand! He is in charge of arranging the cleanup on Monday, I'm sure there's a report of anything strange that is found- and this includes broken bottles and such.
I'm perfectly content to stay away from the madness and keep to those that I love and trust. I'll defend my camp, and keep my fairemily safe within it's boundaries. But, if you choose to go over to that bastard child that the fire circle has become, you're taking your own chances. And I don't feel sorry for someone that jumps into a tank of hungry sharks and then is surprised when they come out with a bite or two.
I guess I'm just saying that this "shark" you speak of really only reared it's ugly head in the last 3 years. Prior to that, the fire circle was a place FOR rennies all about the fair spirit and fair fun.... I just miss the old days and I think tons of others do to!
Lord Dragonspyre, I really like the petition. I will certainly sign it this weekend or whenever possible. I think you had all the important highlights from this now incredibly long thread of ideas and means of curbing problems.
I agree with Blue, the powers that be know what is going on and I also agree with what Randall said and I'm afraid that if we are not careful the powers that be may pull the plug on the whole camping issue and thus problem solved with no further expense incurred. They may feel that it would be easier for them to make the whole problem go away than to deal with it just to make us happy.
blue66669: QuoteOk, this is getting way out of hand. I understand that we don't like the noise.
I understand your view, I've been out at TRF for about 30 years, as a patron, hawker, boothie, performer and playtron.
Examining the question "am I just getting too old or is this getting screwed up?" leads me to the conclusion that the camp is going through some major growing pains.
I respectfully disagree with your view, I believe It's the camp that is getting out of hand.
It's not the drum jam per se or noise, it's the assaults, thieving and belligerent behavior that have spread all over the camp.
I'm not saying it can ever go back to the way it was given how big it has grown but I think the stupidity needs to be curtailed.
And family camping is not big enough for all the camps anymore :-\
I don't think anybody has a problem with a lively shindig or wants the camp to be quiet at the stroke of midnight.
But most folks want a bit of fair magic to carry on out into Playtrons.
I like drums, shenanigans, crazed nekkid dancing or a wolf run though I might avert my eyes depending on who it is.
Personally I lock up everything of value including ice chests when it gets late but everyone I know has had something stolen, in many cases very expensive things.
Not everyone who comes out for the first time is part of a large organized group and can set a night watch.
I've talked to people who got their costumes together, camped one time and had their valuables and ice chests ripped off.
Sometimes they never come back.
It didn't use to be this way and it shouldn't be this way.
This thriving board is a testament to the sense of community that makes the camp and TRF a place we hold dear.
I want the new people to have the same opportunity we had to discover the magic.
Hear Hear Spanish-peacock!! When I first started attending fair, I'd leave my car unlocked and all my valuables laying about my tent without the slightest fear of theivery.... Now I worry about the trashcan and flag outside the camper while we go on a walkabout!! That's just ridiculous...
The jello shooter sign. I really don't think that's a huge problem. In no way am I wanting to ruin anyone's good time. I just would like to see the people with lack of respect go.. I was a wild child too. But giving the campfire to the drunk idiots, why not just give them the campsite also. First year I went friday night was Awesome the drums were putting me into a trance, as was the silhouette of girls belly dancing to the beat. That night turned me into a rennie. I met some wonderfull people that night willing to share there homemade brews. and I have some nice conversations.
Saturday night was fights and guys groping what few girls were there. And trying to entice them into dancing. The next year It got worse. And I hated it. Also there was a guy who bragged earlier that he had took alot of uppers. He stayed the whole night banging eraticly on his huge drum, with no beat what so ever.
Most of us camp to thwart the cost of hotel's on top of everything else. and also get the chance to party and mingle with other rennies. Sure I know alot of us aren't squeaky clean on what we do after hours at our campsites. But I don't want that to go.
Maybe a raised price in camping would be a bad idea. But I'm pretty sure the kids with lack of respect don't pay there way to camp anyways. So building a fence separating the parking lot from camping, would enforce them to at lest pay like everyone else. And I'm sure it would run a few off.
And I considered it to suggest raising the price to fund a fence to entice TRF to see the $$ evolved.
With all due respect to the existing security...
I would think that a simple application of enforcing existing laws against under-aged drinking and controlled substances would eliminate the problem. A couple of surprise raids and the local hooligans causing the trouble will find somewhere else to trash.
No vigilantes, no fort-building and no exclusionary pricing, just good old-fashioned law enforcement.
It is not complicated.
Ok, Briga-freek ;) :-* (btw, I LOVE you guys, you have a GREAT fire)
I see your point. In that case, the petition should only request more security on staff because of a fear of harm coming to life, limb, or property- to keep the lot of us safe and secure. Nothing we can do about people that suck. They just suck, and they'll always suck. We complain about broken bottles, and they enforce a no glass policy. We complain about the ravers, and it looks like we're being elitist and we only want a certain kind of person there.
I do, however, have an idea.....
No visitors to camp under the age of 18 without a parent, guardian, or someone over the age of 35 with them.
OR......
TRF clearly states that camping is provided for 10.00 per car WITH the purchase of the ticket. You may enter the campgrounds (which should get more security) without a ticket for 20.00 per HEAD. That's a damn good price for a weekend of camping and no faire. So, the price goes up for those without tickets, and stays the same for we that have them. Will call??? Have a list to mark off. Group sales??? Have a list with the name of the group and give it to the guard. Otherwise, meet your friend outside to get your ticket. They don't let people into the movie theater without one, why should TRF?
Oh, and another thing- why is it so hard to believe that maybe, just maybe, there are even RENNIES out there that would steal your things? Not keeping them locked up in the first place is a BAD move.
Quote from: PyroMaster on October 14, 2008, 12:01:20 PM
With all due respect to the existing security...
I would think that a simple application of enforcing existing laws against under-aged drinking and controlled substances would eliminate the problem. A couple of surprise raids and the local hooligans causing the trouble will find somewhere else to trash.
No vigilantes, no fort-building and no exclusionary pricing, just good old-fashioned law enforcement.
It is not complicated.
This could be done easily by having the police inside the gates (at least a portion of them) do a sweep through the campgrounds before leaving for the night.
blue sure it could be rennies. But its always been Saturday or Sunday when my things are stolen. And thats when the party kids show up.
And I never been asked for a beer from another rennie. Ive been asked for drugs,beer,water for a sick kid who's rolling to hard.
The Friday night bonfire is normally alot tamer than Satudays.
But if there was a way to enforce the laws better I up for it. the drinking age is 21 for a good reason. But if you do illegal stuff, keep to yourself, don't announce your presence.
i like the revised version, except for the having a ticket part, not everyone that goes has a way to buy tickets in advance. you can usually tell the difference between a rennie and dane pulling up to thecamp gates. a rennie will usually have some garb or sword or something along those lines visible in the car. unless the they could open the ticket boothes on friday so that people can get thier tickets then.
I went to the fire for some belly dancing sat nite and was very impressed that it didn't degrade into some of the madnesses i saw last yr. I actually had room to dance, and others kept the crowds back for more room. I had a great time and was able to dance uninterupted for 30 min. So whoever was out there responsible for that, THANKS!!! now, please keep it up :) it's only fun to dance out there when u aren't afraid that every other step might be the one that catches ur skirt or scarves on fire ;) liz and i will be out there dancing at nite, so come say hi to us.
I have taken the invitation to make constructive changes to this preliminary document to heart, and have changed some of the wording, but not the overall message. I hope I have not offended anyone in so doing. My changes are underlined, with explanations in italics. I tried leaving in the original wording using
strike through, but it became too confusing for me so I have used the quote feature to include the original passages for the sake of comparison. Just my own suggestions, worth tuppence (or less). :)
P.S. I started this early this morning, but was unable to return to it until this afternoon, so I have no idea what has been discussed in the meantime.
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 14, 2008, 10:44:35 AM
Okay, here's a more revised version of the proposed petition. Feel free to criticize (constructively, of course) and make suggestions on what to add, take away, or change:
QuoteTo the Texas Renaissance Festival Management,
The Texas Renaissance Festival, while a fantastic and beautiful place to visit, has a problem that needs to be addressed.
We, the Undersigned, do hereby set forth this petition for increased security and the removal of certain undesirable elements from the campgrounds. The campgrounds have long been a hallmark of the TRF experience, a place for patrons of the Faire to relax and socialize with other like-minded individuals in a communal atmosphere.
Unfortunately, that tradition has been sullied by the influx of people coming to the campgrounds simply to have a place to throw an out of control party and get intoxicated and/or high, and lose all sense of responsibility. This trend is leading to less and less enjoyment of the campgrounds to the point where people have stated that despite camping there for years, they would not want to camp anymore due to the dangers present. Other campers are worried about or even hesitant to bring their children or their friends out to the campgrounds due to the dangers involved.
The Texas Renaissance Festival, while
an entertaining and exciting place to visit, has a
rapidly escalating peripheral problem that
many patrons feel should be
immediately addressed.
(<<emotional adjectives should be avoided, and strong imperatives used to compel attention)We, the Undersigned, do hereby
submit this petition
requesting increased security
personnel and the
enforced cessation of dangerous and illegal activities taking place within the
confines of the TRF campground.
(<< the preamble should end here)The campground
has long been
an intrinsic element of the TRF experience, a place for patrons of the Faire to relax and socialize in a
safe, convivial atmosphere. Unfortunately,
this experience is being compromised by
an overwhelming influx of people
who do not attend TRF itself, many of whom are minors, coming to the campgrounds
with the express intent to promote out of control parties,
become highly intoxicated, use and/or distribute illegal substances, and
indulge in destructive and often violent behavior. This trend is
discouraging usage of the campground
by long-term patrons, and causing others to cease attending Faire altogether.
Many patrons have also become hesitant to bring their children or their friends to
TRF due to the perceived dangers
and unpleasant experiences now associated with camping.
I have not had time to tinker with the rest of the document, but I believe the sentiments expressed in it are sound. Of course, this opinion is offered by a TRF camping virgin, so take that into account when reading! :D 8)
i think in general, that is a very good summation of how we all feel. thanks for creating this and making it sound formal :)
I'd sign the petition except for the last line. The whole "must have ticket". You are obviously one who goes in every weekend. (nothing wrong with that) There are ALOT of us rennies that don't. Alot of us rennies don't have the money to do so, and raising the "price" to go see your friends and family via a large reunion is not the answer.
But, if it ever goes that way, your going to find myself, many others and probabaly all of the ravers (because they aren't dumb) will buy a single ticket and hold onto it for all of faire so they can camp. 16 bucks and bam, they are still there for a season.
Law enforcement is one of the best answers but how do you keep your buddies from getting nailed in the crossfire? How many on here have done ANYTHING illegal at faire? Now do we want to see any of us carted off because we asked for the major crackdown? Is it worth it to ya?
Otherwise though, the petitions good... except it's a directionless writing. It's asking for plenty but not offering anything. (ie: we will stop camping, we will pay more) It's a give and take with these kinds of things. They will want something in return. They always do.
You know the saying "out of site out of mind". I've done illegal stuff at faire. But I don't wave a flag over my head. Were not attacking people who have a good time. Were worried about the people who decide that there actions are irreverent because no one enforces them to follow rules.
Anywhere there is a gathering there is illegal stuff going on. Where not here to be hypocrites. All were asking is something to be done about the people who seem to have no respect for other's or themselves.
the only way they can enforce the tickets is to move the guard shacks. But the idea was to either purchase one (which could be sold later ) or to raise the price to entice the TRF staff to listen to our petition, and also benefiting us( with safer camping) and the TRF staff( with $$).
Ok, well there seem to be a limited number of viable options. Petitions are great, but can ultimately be ignored. We can hope they wont be, but really I doubt if those with an issue at camping would put a big enough dent in the King's pocket for policy to be changed. So the answers that I see, if you boil it down are just two, that we, as normal patrons can do ourselves.
1) take back the circle. We show up, we run it our way, and we leave little room for anything else. The problem of course with this is the likelihood of confrontation, and the dedication required. People are profiting from this debauchery (that damned bus with all it's lights and shiner bock doing the girls gone wild style filming was not there out of the kindness of its heart last year) and are not going to go away easily.
2) We make our own, and control it. Maybe one of the established camps feels like hosting it, or we can come together and figure out where and how to set up a separate circle just for those that enjoy the more tribal, safe, feel to it. Should this prove effective, I figure it would have the other effect of letting the ravers fight with just themselves, and give poor Mike and Charlie and their co-workers an easy bulls eye. (I have a ton of respect for the cops that are out there, in the camps, busting there weed puller for our safety. We'd love to have more, but VERY few MAJOR things have happened at TRF - a testament to how hard a few people work in sea of drunks).
Either requires effort on OUR part, not just expecting things to be run our way because we happen to think it would be the best. So first thing, I would guess we should take measure of how committed we are to having such a thing, or if we should just suck it up and not go or not cry. This debate happens every year, and this weekend seemed pretty calm compared to a few weekends last year.
Just my two cents.
I agree entirely Killian. We need to solve the problem, but I dont think taking back the bonfire will end up well for us due to your mentioned confronation.
The second idea is wonderful, but nobody is quite willing to step up. Heck I'm sure my group would be happy to have it, as long as we knew we'd have a bit of help cleaning it up in the mornings and some help keeping it all civil... but we're camping in the boonies out near The Rogues.
We have run our party the last three years and made our own large bonfire and we've made a protected circle for the spinners and breathers and quadranted everything off, so we know it can be done. Ask any of the performers at our party and they will tell you they always have more than enough room. People at the party will also tell you theres never been a problem thats escalated beyond asking someone to politely leave too...
It can be done. But as Kilian has said... do we have the dedication to put in the effort beyond asking for help, and the self discipline not to go to far and get us all in trouble?
As for the out of sight thing... I agree. People are discreet. But guess what... Ravers aren't getting kicked out. They are obviously at least discreet enough to stay a thorn in our sides while doing their illegal activities. Who is to say that if security beefs up, that even our level of discreet can get us in trouble. Heck... these kids do this kinda thing for a living and they aren't behind bars... give them some credit. They MIGHT be just as sneaky as all of us when they NEED to be.
I didn't ponder the hypocrite thing. We aren't making a deal out of that at all. Nobody has said we dont do what they do to an extent. We are controlled (most of the time) and they are not... that is what we have the problem with. Nobody here that I've seen is pointing fingers at each other in the least. I, personally, am just trying to point out the double edged sword that asking for such a ramp in security can bring about. Cops don't see ravers and rennies... they see legal and illegal. Heck, being as one of the more "legal oriented" folks (thank you shoddy liver for saving me from extracurriculars!) I'm still worried about this because so many of my friends amongst the other clans could get popped for this when they are responsible about their activites.
If our observations of the fire pit last year were any indication of the norm, and given the posts on this thread it would seem that they are, it would seem that there is some danger represented by the ravers. I would offer the following thoughts before anything is sent to management at the faire.
Lawsuits for negligence are often based on the forseeability that an injury might occur and the prudence or lack thereof on the part of the defendant in preventing it. If I look at the activities of the less "controlled" participants of camping at TRF I could pick dozens of potientially devistating lawsuits that might be brought on behalf of injured persons. Just consider the possibiltiy of an angry drunk raver driving over a tent in the middle of the night.
Any event such as TRF has to have general liability or commercial insurance policies in place. While there are a variety of types of policies, the premiums can be more or less depending on the activities taking place on the business premises. I would expect that it costs more or higher premiums to provide a camping area which probably explains why some faires (Scarborough) elect not to have camping and why some faires even prohibit alcohol (why even go?).
My point is (and it has been made better by others in this thread I am sure) that while the factual merit of the proposed petition is without a doubt as valid as it can be, any pressure that may be put on management could result in the unintended outcome of discontinuing camping. The petition would be discoverable in a lawsuit by a plaintiff, and if an attorney reviewed the Petition after is was sent, he would be guilty of malpractice in my opinion if he did not advise management to discontinue or significantly curtail the camping at TRF, or tell TRF that significant additional resources should be allocated to manage the risk presented by the current situation.
I have a compromise suggestion which would increase security for the campers without creating an oppressive environment and actually lower the cost of operation for TRF with respect to their insurance costs. If a pool were created so that each camper put an additional $10.00 fee/donation/whatever into a fund for the retention of a private security company - and if TRF management gave official consent to the hiring of patron security to supplement the constable who is already present, it would provide a responsive and "patron centered" solution to our problem while allowing TRF management to report to their insurer that they have hired additional security which would likely lower their premiums. The $10.00 fee would more than pay for the cost with the number of campers that I have observed. The additional fee would not likely be paid by ravers who would rather not camp than pay the cost of their party killers.
Just a thought...
If I look at the activities of the less "controlled" participants of camping at TRF I could pick dozens of potentially devastating lawsuits that might be brought on behalf of injured persons. Just consider the possibiltiy of an angry drunk raver driving over a tent in the middle of the night.
I read somewhere that just happened last weekend. But thanks to a fast acting father.
First off I don't want to loose camping at TRF. But it just seems like something is bound to happen. and that's what I worry about. I'm not worried about the illegal activities. I'm more worried about things getting way out of control to the point that as Stracc mention that the camping has become to much of a hassle for TRF because of a lawsuit. Its is TRF land and we are guests there. I would just like to let the TRF staff know that something needs to be done, before something happens.
But I like your idea Stracc something tells me this is your Niche.
Something need to be done quickly before someone's kid get killed again and a lawsuit ensues for lack of mismanagement.
In highschool I've seen 2 places we used to hang out at closed up because of a lethal accident.
Quote from: Captain Kilian on October 14, 2008, 07:40:26 PMPeople are profiting from this debauchery (that damned bus with all it's lights and shiner bock doing the girls gone wild style filming was not there out of the kindness of its heart last year) and are not going to go away easily.
Do not blaspheme the holy virtues of debauchery by equating it with such drivel!A true practicioner of the debauching arts needs not group pressure, fancy parlor tricks, nor mind altering substances to successfully engage and debauch a person. All it takes is a quick wit, a silver tongue, and the ability and will to use them.
What you claim to be "debauchery" at the Fire Circle is naught more than the modern day equivalent of clubbing a woman over the head and dragging her back to the cave by her hair.
TRUE Debauchery takes finesse.
Thus Sayeth the Horseman of Debauchery.
Aye my apologies. While writing I was thinking with my "Mundane mind" and thus forgot the fine art that Lord DS hath now reminded me of.
....... wow .......
I think I might even stand in line for a little of your particular brand of debauchery, M'Lord...
talk about silver tongue...
:D
i also like idea number 2. it might work rather well if there were several groups to get together and set up all 3 or 4 of thier camp sights togther with tents and rv's surrounding said fire so as to block if off from unwanted outside danes and only advertise it to those that would like to come and enjoy the friendly, relaxing, atmosphere that we're all looking for.
It seems that every year after the start of TRF this thread keeps coming back and, my perception, is that the situation is not getting any better and perhaps worse. I choose not to camp because I don't want to be around this type of nonsense for fear of having things escalate out of control.
Police offers are on site at the campground 24/7 and, though they are hired to work security by TRF, they are still TX peace officers sworn to enforce the law. If illegal or dangerous activity is taking place, they need to be notified every time. If the number of incidents spike, then the Sherriff's Dept, or whatever agency has jurisdiction over Todd Mission, will require TRF to hire more officers and clean the place up. By law, TRF can not open without a minimum number of police officers on site, and that number is recommended by the Sherriff or Constable based upon attendance and number of reported incidents. While TRF can refuse to hire the recommended number of officers, law enforcement can refuse to provide any officers. Talk to the officers in the campground about your concerns, and seek out the on site police supervisor as well. If you still feel the situation is not improving, call or email the Grimes County Sherriff directly. I firmly believe that this is the best way to make the campground safer since TRF must answer and address any concerns raised by law enforcement so let's get them on our side.
And let me address another point that was put forth: No, I have NEVER done anything illegal at faire. I like to think I am mature and intelligent enough to understand the ramifications and consequences on my actions and I avoid putting myself or those around me into those situations. A DUI, possession or disorderly conduct arrest will follow me the rest of my life and could keep me from getting a job, security clearance, loan, apartment or professional license. I mean no disrespect to anyone else, I am only speaking for myself, others must march to the beat of their own drum. Stepping down from my soapbox now.
Ok, I don't like this thread. It focuses on the negative part of camping, and well - that seems tragic enough. The fire circle could be run over with X popping, dope smoking, retards in clown costumes (and clowns are just creepy), and I would still camp at TRF. I miss the fire circle of years past, but as we've had reported here too, there were not all bad times this past weekend around the fire circle. There were incidents, yes, but this thread , as has been mentioned keeps coming up EVERY year - so it's not like we are uninformed over this fact. To stop camping, and visiting all your friends in their various camps just because the drum circle is not how we wish it were seems like never going to Disney land because they change the Swiss family Robinson tree to the jungle book tree (And they did...sick bastards!). It was one attraction, not THE ONLY attraction for me. Really if we who not partake of illicit activities, just avoid the areas that have now long been established as where those problems lay, then all should be well. Maybe some band together to try and recreate the drum circle they wish to have, and maybe not.
With all the negativity this thread has brought about camping, I wish to point out something, just to put perspective on it. TRF is how many acres of Camping, much of it having people who have partaken some amount or another of alcohol and ore 'other' - and I feel safer walking about there, sleeping in a fabric walled tent, stumbling back to find said tent - then I do walking to and from the bar across my street in a nicer area of San Antonio. I am more comfortable drinking out there with just a few cops on their gators then in a respected bar with its bouncer and a gaggle of cops outside the doors.
I so hope that while we try to find solutions to things we were were better, we do not loose sight of something that is still great - camping at TRF overall.
I'm with the Captain! Great Points Killian!
I agree with Captain Killian. True TRF's go for the ambiance, for the "Faire"mily, for the escape. You can find all those things in your own camp or in the McLotofus camp or any other camp you wander into. If the only thing you went to TRF for was the drum circle, you're as guilty as those who have over run it. A rennie at heart will always make the best of the situation because it is not one thing that makes Faire, it's everything that makes Faire.
Quote from: Captain Kilian on October 15, 2008, 01:19:11 AM
seems like never going to Disney land because they change the Swiss family Robinson tree to the jungle book tree (And they did...sick bastards!). It was one attraction, not THE ONLY attraction for me.
Doood... not the tree!!! I am NEVER... oh, well, maybe. Seriously, I would live in that tree if I could...
I'm on the agreement bus. I love the faire, not the fire. My clan is happy and healthy, and we will continue to patronize the campgrounds- no matter what must be done to keep our camp the way it is within OUR borders.
Thank you Captain Kilian, for posting you observations. I agree with them all. Surround yourself at your camp with friends and family and make of it what you want it to be! Oh, and bring ear plugs for the rest of it ;)
It's real simple people. There are police officers patrolling the campgrounds, but they cannot be everywhere at once. They cannot see all the goings on. If you see something illegal, you need to take the initiative and report it to them so they can do their job. Trust me, there are plenty of police officers out there that are NOT employed by TRF but are there camping right along side of you. I happen to know most of them myself and they would be more than willing to do their job or get the on duty officers to the location to enforce the laws.
This "petition" will most likely end up in the circular file. You figure the following. Number of campers 1,000. Number of people through the gate on opening day 26,500. Do the math there and you will find out that the number of people camping versus the number of people that came through the gate on Saturday is much greater so that management is going to focus their attention to make that number grow even bigger each week.
Those of you that are working a booth inside faire, but camping out in patrons would be told simply. "We provide you the option of having your camp set up throughout the festival and camping in the backstage area, you should not be camping out in patrons."
Essentially, this is not an argument that a petition is going to solve, but actions being taken in the campgrounds to ensure the law enforcement officers that are there know what is going on so they can do their jobs is a step in the right direction to get things moving. Taking back the fire by a show of numbers and doing things right is another step in the right direction. The Rennies can take back the campgrounds simply by doing that which they have always done, band together and work as a cohesive unit to get the job done.
If you are ever looking for an officer or a fireman, go to Safe Haven. I think their entire camp is full of them... I honestly don't think I've ever been over at their camping area when there wasn't at least one of each hanging about!!! And they are true rennies who are in general very helpful and cool guys!
Quote from: Element of Air on October 15, 2008, 10:09:01 AM
Thats why we are called Safe Haven, should you need something, we are there and if we can not help we will get you to someone who can. However, our "officers" are officers in the mundane world and do come to the fair to escape their mundane lives just like the rest of us, but an officer is always on duty and I know they always have their badges.
This is true, but unless they are local officers inside of their jurisdiction, they really can't do anything other than request a cessation of activities and inform the local officers. Jurisdiction is very important to the boys in blue.
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 15, 2008, 10:19:13 AM
Quote from: Element of Air on October 15, 2008, 10:09:01 AM
Thats why we are called Safe Haven, should you need something, we are there and if we can not help we will get you to someone who can. However, our "officers" are officers in the mundane world and do come to the fair to escape their mundane lives just like the rest of us, but an officer is always on duty and I know they always have their badges.
This is true, but unless they are local officers inside of their jurisdiction, they really can't do anything other than request a cessation of activities and inform the local officers. Jurisdiction is very important to the boys in blue.
Do remember though, a cops judgement is held highly in courts etc. If one were to step in and have to do some or anything in the name of safety or the "good samaritan" angle, they have a 90% chance of not getting in trouble, whereas if one of us had to physically put someone to the ground because they might have hurt someone.... we'd be in jail. Not only is their badge powerful as a symbol AND a voucher for their credibility, their knowledge of the law etc is as well... so even out of their jurisdiction they can do many things that we can't safely do.
I have not even made it through half the topic and I am so upset and angry that I have to post this here and now.
WTF!!??
Why exactly is the guy who has a tag line of corrupting youth having an issue with shooters for hooters?
Isn't that hypocrisy? It's OK to whine about someone else having fun but yet brag about it yourself?
Have you talked to the people who have that RV? They are the nicest couple. If you have a problem with bare breasts then I suggest you don't harass King George about it(that is a fast way to end camping for everyone) but instead turn to lawmakers. IT IS NOT ILLEGAL FOR A WOMAN TO EXPOSE HER BREASTS IN THE STATE OF TEXAS!!! Yes, I yelled it, I will always yell it! You can get Texas to change their laws, you could try Grimes county, but honestly, get over it. Personal pet peeve there men can show their breasts because women can control themselves but women can't show their breast because men have no self control.
Camp ground security works their paychecks off to protect even the idiots out there. You can spend all day whining like babies about how bad it is but by fussing, petitioning, and sending videos to George, all you will get is no camping or camping so restricted you might as well move to family camping right now. When you see the police officers you should meet them. They go way about the call of duty to help out at the camp grounds. They get calls like "there is a fight at the porta potties" and have to figure out which of the dozen or so privies it is at. They get woken up at all hours of the day and night to find keys, find people, stop fights, administer aid, and all kinds of things. Sure we could use another officer or so but honestly we could use some campers who are more proactive than crying about it on their computers. My camp doesn't put up with crap and isn't confrontational about it. We don't have problems really.
Get off your collective arses and meet the wonderful police officers that patrol out there. They are easy to contact and find when you need them. I know that several camp elders have both of their personal cell numbers. I don't think they should have to give out their personal numbers, maybe George will buy a phone for them. Meet some of the elders from the larger camps, they can help too.
If you don't like the big fire circle, don't go to it. Life is really that easy. There are several other large nice fire circles that have no problems, go to one of those. Eventually the idiots will go away or else they can have their own craptastic firecircle and we can all of our wonderful ones.
I think that Mike and Charlie should get a thanks for all the hard work, not get reamed on this forum by a bunch of people hiding behind their computers. Besides Mike and Charlie there are also local sheriffs, dea, tabc, and other officers that float through the camp grounds too. I have personally seen them.
Quote from: ourevilone on October 15, 2008, 12:53:02 PM
IT IS NOT ILLEGAL FOR A WOMAN TO EXPOSE HER BREASTS IN THE STATE OF TEXAS!!! Yes, I yelled it, I will always yell it! You can get Texas to change their laws, you could try Grimes county, but honestly, get over it. Personal pet peeve there men can show their breasts because women can control themselves but women can't show their breast because men have no self control.
Actually, it is illegal outside in a public place for a woman to be bare breasted. Why do you think the ones in chain mail have something covering the breasts? It is against the law for a womans nipples to show in public. Why do you think that all the women at any public venue (other than a strip club which is "private") where they hold things like fetish balls are required to have something covering their nipples. They must maintain what is called being "Texas Legal".
WOW dude... i think u took some comments a little too personally!! i think most rennies will never complain bout women's breast being exposed.... perhaps they were saying the age of those exposing themselves was a LITTLE young. but who wouldn't complain bout that? if u had a 16yr old, would u want her exposing her breasts to a bunch of drunk strangers?? not that i haven't done it a time or 2 for mardi gras.... ok, it is more like 500 x. but who's counting? rennies generally like debauchery... but not underage debauchery.... which it seems is the only thing u can see at the campfire these days...
they are complaining bout the lost of the good ol days :)
i think we all applaud the officers and what they do. but it doens't seem like there's enuf of them out there to control the madness that has exploded over the last couple yrs.
but there are some groups of people, few and far btwn, that are turning the fun debauchery into dangerous debauchery. there are mass thefts, gang rapes, huge fights, and other scary activities. a few yrs ago, we could leave all our beautiful stuff/jewlery in plain site in our unlocked car, now we have to walk all girls back to thier camp sites for fear of them being raped. that's a HUGE downslide!!!
the problem is not the security force they have in place but the people that are too stupid to control them selves...i have been coming out there for the last 12 years and there have always been problems...but the cops are doing their jobs...if people would take responsibility to call the cops when something happens instead of take it into their own hands, it would help...as for the noise if you don't like it, camp in quiet family camping where it won't bother you...that's what it's there for...i do believe in checking tickets at the gate, as for the fire...it's tradition a few extra cops just to watch the fire alone would help but keep in mind they will probably up the price of camping to cover it...and if they change a whole lot it will ruin everything...without the main fire they will invade the private older camps and we'll all hate that...think about it
ACK!!! Does anyone else feel a bit invaded?
Alright, boys & girls....let's play nicely.
Attacks will not be tolerated.
This topic has been reported to the moderators and is under review.
Quote from: ourevilone on October 15, 2008, 12:53:02 PMIT IS NOT ILLEGAL FOR A WOMAN TO EXPOSE HER BREASTS IN THE STATE OF TEXAS!!! Yes, I yelled it, I will always yell it! You can get Texas to change their laws, you could try Grimes county, but honestly, get over it. Personal pet peeve there men can show their breasts because women can control themselves but women can't show their breast because men have no self control.
Let's see what Texas State Law has to say...
Out at the campgrounds, you can find the following:
http://www.texassexcrimedefense.com/PracticeAreas/Texas-Sex-Crimes-Law.asp
Indecent Exposure
Indecency With A Child
Improper Photography or Visual Recording
Criminal Solicitation of a Minor
Public Lewdness
http://www.tabc.state.tx.us/leginfo/minorcode.htm
Minor In Possession of Alcohol
Minor In Consumption of Alcohol
http://www.mytexasdefenselawyer.com/texas-criminal-laws-penalties/drug-possession/
Possession of Drugs
Possession of Drugs with the Intent to Distribute
I'm still researching the exposed breast issue, but so far the only instance of an exposed breast being legal I've found is during breastfeeding.
QuoteGet off your collective arses and meet the wonderful police officers that patrol out there. They are easy to contact and find when you need them. I know that several camp elders have both of their personal cell numbers. I don't think they should have to give out their personal numbers, maybe George will buy a phone for them. Meet some of the elders from the larger camps, they can help too.
I already have a meeting set up with them to discuss these issues, at THEIR request, not mine.
QuoteI think that Mike and Charlie should get a thanks for all the hard work, not get reamed on this forum by a bunch of people hiding behind their computers. Besides Mike and Charlie there are also local sheriffs, dea, tabc, and other officers that float through the camp grounds too. I have personally seen them.
Nobody is reaming security, we're just saying that they're severely understaffed. If you'd read the WHOLE thread instead of getting so full of bluster that you're about to explode, you'd realize this.
There is also a big difference between a woman exposing herself of her own free will and a woman being peer pressured for booze. Yes, it's her choice, thats fine, but the people offering the choice show the "unwanted" element that ren faire is actually just a different setting for girls gone wild.
Everyone loves our security. We just wish there were more of them. They do a fine job... but guess what... if there are only 4 firefighters in a city of thousands... buildings are gonna burn down regardless of how perfect the firefighters are. The same goes for security at faire.
As for calling folks hypocrites, not really a fair game to play. These are our characters. We know where to draw the line in our world of fantasy, and everything we do is with consent and thought (for the most part), and our names, titles, and the way we act are held in check by our actual realities.... Ravers... thats their real world. They dont pretend to be horridly debaucherous, or lewd and crude... they ARE. (not all but stereotyping for usefullness)
So before attacking people after admitting you havent read the entire thing, and getting "outraged" about a bunch of written letters that are here to this point conjecture and conversation... please realize that though there are many things we rennies do have in common with the ravers, that we are still extremely different. So please, feel free to discuss, (i'm sure everyone agrees with that) but don't start flaming, trolling, and generally causing a ruckus. It's not polite.
And in all actuality, thats what we are all talking about here (the entire topic in fact)... a group of people that come into our world ignoring our worlds rules and guidelines... and aren't polite with us and our things.
Quote from: PurpleDragon on October 15, 2008, 01:06:47 PM
Actually, it is illegal outside in a public place for a woman to be bare breasted. Why do you think the ones in chain mail have something covering the breasts? It is against the law for a woman's nipples to show in public. Why do you think that all the women at any public venue (other than a strip club which is "private") where they hold things like fetish balls are required to have something covering their nipples. They must maintain what is called being "Texas Legal".
Sorry darling, you are not correct. Sexually oriented businesses fall under different rules than the rest of us so strip clubs and fetish balls fall under that. The chainmail girls only have to cover them because that is what George wants, not the law. He doesn't want to offend people with such things as nipples(the horror the horror) so it is a faire rule that they be covered, not law and that is off as soon as you leave gates and head to the campgrounds.
Janet Jackson didn't get into trouble over her boobie boo boo because it is not illegal to show your breasts on a state level(or local level), local laws may differ(they don't here), but state wise, nipples have the right to see the light of day. That's why Galveston Mardi Gras is better than NOLA, you can flash without fear of going to jail.
Underaged nipples should never come out and play but that is the responsibility of the parent of that darling child. In case you were wondering, I have 3 teens, one of them female. They have all been to camp with me and all behaved because it takes a village and they have all of Valhalla, Brigadoon, and others keeping an eye on them. Would I like my underaged daughter showing her tits? No, but I am responsible to keep her from doing it(why do you think her faire name was Afelony?).
If someone says their debauchery is fine but someone else's is not, they will always be called a hypocrite by me. Who gets to decide that they can corrupt someone but no one else can? Character, fantasy or real life... It just doesn't fly. I think the shooter for hooters thing is just fine, if you don't like it, don't go over there.
Quotebut there are some groups of people, few and far btwn, that are turning the fun debauchery into dangerous debauchery. there are mass thefts, gang rapes, huge fights, and other scary activities. a few yrs ago, we could leave all our beautiful stuff/jewlery in plain site in our unlocked car, now we have to walk all girls back to thier camp sites for fear of them being raped. that's a HUGE downslide!!!
I hate to say it, but going places in groups and locking up valuables (especially in the trunk) are both good policies no matter where you happen to be. Many crimes can be prevented with good sense, caution, awareness. Yes, it does take some of the happy innocence out of things, but the alternative is far worse. And for goodness sakes, if you are in situation with which you aren't comfortable, LEAVE.
Quote from: ourevilone on October 15, 2008, 02:06:21 PM
Quote from: PurpleDragon on October 15, 2008, 01:06:47 PM
Actually, it is illegal outside in a public place for a woman to be bare breasted. Why do you think the ones in chain mail have something covering the breasts? It is against the law for a woman's nipples to show in public. Why do you think that all the women at any public venue (other than a strip club which is "private") where they hold things like fetish balls are required to have something covering their nipples. They must maintain what is called being "Texas Legal".
Sorry darling, you are not correct. Sexually oriented businesses fall under different rules than the rest of us so strip clubs and fetish balls fall under that. The chainmail girls only have to cover them because that is what George wants, not the law. He doesn't want to offend people with such things as nipples(the horror the horror) so it is a faire rule that they be covered, not law and that is off as soon as you leave gates and head to the campgrounds.
Janet Jackson didn't get into trouble over her boobie boo boo because it is not illegal to show your breasts on a state level(or local level), local laws may differ(they don't here), but state wise, nipples have the right to see the light of day. That's why Galveston Mardi Gras is better than NOLA, you can flash without fear of going to jail.
Underaged nipples should never come out and play but that is the responsibility of the parent of that darling child. In case you were wondering, I have 3 teens, one of them female. They have all been to camp with me and all behaved because it takes a village and they have all of Valhalla, Brigadoon, and others keeping an eye on them. Would I like my underaged daughter showing her tits? No, but I am responsible to keep her from doing it(why do you think her faire name was Afelony?).
If someone says their debauchery is fine but someone else's is not, they will always be called a hypocrite by me. Who gets to decide that they can corrupt someone but no one else can? Character, fantasy or real life... It just doesn't fly. I think the shooter for hooters thing is just fine, if you don't like it, don't go over there.
So just out of curiosity, could you prove this for me and get people to go stand on the side of the ride outside faire with all their feminine wiles hanging out and video tape it? I'm truly curious to see how the authorities respond to it, because if it is true that it isn't illegal, I still have an odd feeling they'll all be told to leave or escorted off in shiny metal jewelry. And if I'm wrong, well, I'll have a tape of a bunch of people showin their boobies.
As for debauchery.... you don't agree to levels of such things? Debaucherous in ones private campgrounds is one thing... in wide open it's another. I mean, if it's not then your ok with your children getting to see people waving their happy parts at their faces and possibly using the swing that exists inside the camps you mentioned because I'm sure if you stay in places like valhalla and brigadoon your children have seen mildly debaucherous acts such as groping and intense petting and your ok with that I assume since ya stay there... so if your gonna lump one persons debauchery in with another, it should be ok for them to see both right? ...
Since it's all the same and allowing one type of debauchery in front of minors and barring another would be hypocritical aye?
Pardon the sarcasm and sardonic nature. It is to prove a point, that there are indeed acceptable levels of bad things and unnaceptable levels, and someone in the acceptable range should always have the ability to complain about the higher range without being called a hypocrite, because acceptable and unnaceptable are indeed two different things... and well... we all see our level of debauchery as acceptable, so ravers are definitely different.
What showing boobs in public comes down to FOR ME, and this is a disclaimer of sorts, is the spirit in which it is done. If it's a "girls gone wild" extremely sexualized, hooting and hollering sort of scenario, where women actually feel pressured to do it to be cool, then I'm TOTALLY against it!!! If it's a free spirited, hippie sort of environment, where they are simply expressing their physical freedoms in a loving and fun way, I'm totally for it. And the fire circle used to be the second example, now with the "show your boobs" van it is the 1st example. That's just how I see it, and the people who own the van might be nice people, but they are not putting on a "nice" face!
Ladies and Gents . . . I don't like to lock threads, but this one is pushing the limits of propriety. I'm not calling anyone out or taking sides here, just providing a friendly reminder that these discussions must remain civil. Disagreeing with other R/F members is fine ... personal insults will not be tolerated. Let's keep it friendly, folks.
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 15, 2008, 02:18:48 PM
So just out of curiosity, could you prove this for me and get people to go stand on the side of the ride outside faire with all their feminine wiles hanging out and video tape it?
As for debauchery.... you don't agree to levels of such things? Debaucherous in ones private campgrounds is one thing... in wide open it's another. I mean, if it's not then your ok with your children getting to see people waving their happy parts at their faces and possibly using the swing that exists inside the camps you mentioned because I'm sure if you stay in places like valhalla and brigadoon your children have seen mildly debaucherous acts such as groping and intense petting and your ok with that I assume since ya stay there... so if your gonna lump one persons debauchery in with another, it should be ok for them to see both right? ...
Since it's all the same and allowing one type of debauchery in front of minors and barring another would be hypocritical aye?
Pardon the sarcasm and sardonic nature. It is to prove a point, that there are indeed acceptable levels of bad things and unnaceptable levels, and someone in the acceptable range should always have the ability to complain about the higher range without being called a hypocrite, because acceptable and unnaceptable are indeed two different things... and well... we all see our level of debauchery as acceptable, so ravers are definitely different.
Thank you so much, you cheered me up.
Ask a cop about the boobs. I'll walk around topless if you want. And it is about intent, nudity for sexual pleasure is illegal, nudity itself is not.
I didn't say you should have debauchery in front of children but the parents are responsible to keep their kids from things that would be offensive.
And the swing is mine so yes, my kids have seen it. If you spend much time near the swing you will notice that people don't actually get naked in it or have sex in it. Mostly it is children swinging and adults testing it out with their clothes on.
Quote from: ourevilone on October 15, 2008, 02:44:22 PM
adults testing it out with their clothes on.
[/quote]
LOL.. And it is the parents responsibility to watch over make and example for their kids. And I admire you for that. But there's a few groups of kids who need some responsibility.
And I've meet a few groups in years past who were there just for the party, That were polite and were having a good time. and there are some which are going to ruin it for everyone.
I have no problem myself with the boobie sign. Or debauchery.
I have a problem with the
Thugs.
i truly find it interesting that one of the biggest complainers is a member of chaos...the one's who founds the naked slip and slide...which i am a proud participant of and as for (our) groups sex swing, everyone that gets in it is fully clothed...it's up for fun and kicks...all we really need is 2 maybe 3 more cops to help charlie out or a few rennies with fire and medical training (like my husband & I) for when things happen and we're close at hand...we have the cops on speed dial if things really get out of hand...other then that ticket checking at the gate will do just fine...& as for the rennies that bring mundane friends...keep an eye on them and keep them in check.
Hmmmmmm...................
I think a good shot of rum is in order here. We're all in agreement that some things should change. That's a good thing. At least we've got that going for us...
Now, where's that rum?
Just to clarify something here. The Naked Slip & Slide was NOT sponsered by CHAOS, nor was it held in the CHAOS camp, it was created and sponsered by Camp Red Star which is NOT in any way shape or form affiliated with CHAOS. Just wanted to clarify this one. ;)
Quote from: ourevilone on October 15, 2008, 02:06:21 PM
Quote from: PurpleDragon on October 15, 2008, 01:06:47 PM
Actually, it is illegal outside in a public place for a woman to be bare breasted. Why do you think the ones in chain mail have something covering the breasts? It is against the law for a woman's nipples to show in public. Why do you think that all the women at any public venue (other than a strip club which is "private") where they hold things like fetish balls are required to have something covering their nipples. They must maintain what is called being "Texas Legal".
Sorry darling, you are not correct. Sexually oriented businesses fall under different rules than the rest of us so strip clubs and fetish balls fall under that. The chainmail girls only have to cover them because that is what George wants, not the law. He doesn't want to offend people with such things as nipples(the horror the horror) so it is a faire rule that they be covered, not law and that is off as soon as you leave gates and head to the campgrounds.
Okay, get a woman to go stand out on the side of the road barechested in Houston. I guarantee that she will be arrested, as it falls under the Indecent Exposure and Public Lewdness laws, insomuch that her barechestedness qualifies as sexual contact (meant to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person), is reckless as to whether another is present who will be offended or alarmed, and is done in a public place.
QuoteJanet Jackson didn't get into trouble over her boobie boo boo because it is not illegal to show your breasts on a state level(or local level), local laws may differ(they don't here), but state wise, nipples have the right to see the light of day. That's why Galveston Mardi Gras is better than NOLA, you can flash without fear of going to jail.
She didn't get into trouble because she's a celebrity.
Celebrities get preferential treatment all the time.
Rebecca Gayheart ran over and killed a 9 year old boy and was convicted misdemeanor manslaughter (which indicates negligence on her part).
Andy Dick was arrested for possession of drugs and sexual battery on a 17 year old. He was released on $5000 bond.
Don't use celebrities as benchmarks of what happens in the legal system. They get special treatment.
QuoteUnderaged nipples should never come out and play but that is the responsibility of the parent of that darling child. In case you were wondering, I have 3 teens, one of them female. They have all been to camp with me and all behaved because it takes a village and they have all of Valhalla, Brigadoon, and others keeping an eye on them. Would I like my underaged daughter showing her tits? No, but I am responsible to keep her from doing it(why do you think her faire name was Afelony?).
And I applaud you for how you have your kids behave. However, most of the kids that pull the crap out at the campgrounds don't have their parents with them. They're there with friends to have a place to party with no adult supervision.
QuoteIf someone says their debauchery is fine but someone else's is not, they will always be called a hypocrite by me. Who gets to decide that they can corrupt someone but no one else can? Character, fantasy or real life... It just doesn't fly.
"Corrupting Impressionable Youths Since 1976" is a phrase coined by a friend of mine years ago to describe my pervertedness. Yes, I'm perverted. I agree with this statement and stand by it. Difference is, I know when to turn it off and be a regular person. Do I ACTUALLY corrupt impressionable youth? No. I do not give alcohol or tobacco to minors. I do not use or distribute drugs. I do not engage in lewd or debaucherous behavior with a woman if she's under the age of 18 (and I have asked for proof of age before). I do not pressure someone into doing something they don't want to. It's my standards that I live by.
These hooligans we refer to out the Fire Circle DO NOT CARE if the girl they are grabbing at or trying to get to expose herself is underage and/or unwilling. They want to see nudity. They want to cop a feel. THAT is irresponsible, wrong, and illegal. THAT is what I want to see gone.
QuoteI think the shooter for hooters thing is just fine, if you don't like it, don't go over there.
Now that I've had time to think about it, I myself do not have a real problem with the ShooterMobile. It's when you combine it with the asinine behavior at the Fire Circle that I start to have issues. If they were to move it away from the Fire Circle, that's fine. Keeping it where it is now simply (if you'll pardon the pun) tosses alcohol onto the fire. On the flip side, if the idiots at the Fire Circle were gone, I'd be perfectly happy with the ShooterMobile exactly where it's at.
naked slip in slide!!!!!!!!!!!!! :o
I'll bring some rum blue. And I'm sure Teach will too.
Rum is fantastic isn't it Blue?
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 15, 2008, 03:15:10 PM
I do not engage in lewd or debaucherous behavior with a woman if she's under the age of 18 (and I have asked for proof of age before). I do not pressure someone into doing something they don't want to. It's my standards that I live by.[\quote]
LOL I got a mental picture of you Saying you need to be over 18 to ride this ride. Now cough up a Id! :o
GIMME THE RUM AND THE NAKIES SLIP AND SLIDE!!!!!
*since my nekkid butt ain't so perrty, I'll wear my bloomers and camp apron get-up LOL*
Quote from: Tanyor on October 15, 2008, 03:19:32 PM
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 15, 2008, 03:15:10 PM
I do not engage in lewd or debaucherous behavior with a woman if she's under the age of 18 (and I have asked for proof of age before). I do not pressure someone into doing something they don't want to. It's my standards that I live by.
LOL I got a mental picture of you Saying you need to be over 18 to ride this ride. Now cough up a Id! :o
*open mouth to say something....closes it again, slaps own hand*
I don't know what possessed me to reply to your post blue but I feel entitled to .
Trust me, I know alot of people would enjoy your fine hiny. If it was my hiny that would be the last of the slip n slide. ;D
Quote from: Tanyor on October 15, 2008, 03:19:32 PM
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 15, 2008, 03:15:10 PM
I do not engage in lewd or debaucherous behavior with a woman if she's under the age of 18 (and I have asked for proof of age before). I do not pressure someone into doing something they don't want to. It's my standards that I live by.[\quote]
LOL I got a mental picture of you Saying you need to be over 18 to ride this ride. Now cough up a Id! :o
Done that...
And SHUT IT, AIACHA!!!
Did someone say rum and naked slip and slide?
::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Count me in!
I'm normally a good judge of character. I'm sure once I meet you I can rest my case. HAHA
Anyways after being on the forums for 2 years in the back burner, I can't wait to meet the lot of you on All Hallows Eve.
Really, the swing was put in there as a "what if". I've seen the swing occupied many a time and it has only ever been mildly debaucherous. It was used in an example to make a point about levels of the same thing, and their difference.
I just don't think that 2-3 cops extra will be able to convey an acceptable level of "preventetive" security personally. Currently, things have to happen before the cops get to it. Not saying that they don't do their jobs, but crimes don't happen around cops normally... they happen away from them. And with their presence being so small.... that's a whoooole lot of room for crime to decide to happen.
At Pennsic (mind you that was a 25k year) they simply had mounted police ALWAYS cantering around all of the roads. They'd wave and be friendly and talk and stop in at groups sometimes sure, but it was never their gun, or their ability to arrest that we needed... their presence is a deterent. And 3 cops extra standing around the bonfire, or even scattered out to specific areas... will just scatter the cockroaches far and wide to new hidey holes.... ya don't put a raid trap down in only a few corners of the house if you have a roach problem... you put them down everywhere until the roaches are gone, and then you practice better habits that keep them from coming back into your house...
We would need a lot more security than 2-3, because while 30 of you may have the numbers to the police... how many different places are all 30 of you on any given night? How many of you will be up in the woods about 1000 ft away from the rogues where all the normal campers are? How many of you will be in the area just past the bonfire where all of the campers are? And will your phone call be on time when it really matters, or will it just give EMS a good shot at saving a life? The same goes for those of you who are rennie firefightewrs and crimestoppers... how many different places are you in a night? I'd never expect you to patrol either... so yes, theres need to be mroe of a presence, BUT, back to my raid/cockroach anaology.... our problem with more raid everywhere... we have pets (definitely no insult here, but consider pets the people that "could" get in trouble with the authorities) and those pets can get ahold of raid just as easily as a cockroach.
Now, still going with this analogy. The shooters for strippers bus or whatever it's called... is kinda like a big chunk of leftover food on the floor for the cockroaches, whereas naked slipinslide is the equivilant of leaving barbecue on the grill... it's watched, it's controlled and monitored so it doesn't burn or get eaten by anything. The shooters bus... nobody checks their id's... nobody says "this girl is too drunk"... and that is where the cockroaches will go, because they can get away with being there.... I think thats what alot of people look at when they see the bus.
And, random question, shouldn't the shooter bus be illegal because it's paying women to take their clothes off? I was under the idea all forms of solicitation on TRF that were not cleared BY TRF were not allowed, thus illegal for all intents and purposes ya?
And I'm all for the rum but not so much the slipnslide... I always find the dry spot... eowch
Bartering for boobies isn't considered solicitation I suppose.
Just like beads for Marti Gras.
Quote from: blue66669 on October 15, 2008, 03:21:39 PM
*since my nekkid butt ain't so perrty, I'll wear my bloomers and camp apron get-up LOL*
I'll gladly tie your apron for you again, m'dear...
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 15, 2008, 12:35:59 PM
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 15, 2008, 10:19:13 AM
Quote from: Element of Air on October 15, 2008, 10:09:01 AM
Thats why we are called Safe Haven, should you need something, we are there and if we can not help we will get you to someone who can. However, our "officers" are officers in the mundane world and do come to the fair to escape their mundane lives just like the rest of us, but an officer is always on duty and I know they always have their badges.
This is true, but unless they are local officers inside of their jurisdiction, they really can't do anything other than request a cessation of activities and inform the local officers. Jurisdiction is very important to the boys in blue.
Do remember though, a cops judgement is held highly in courts etc. If one were to step in and have to do some or anything in the name of safety or the "good samaritan" angle, they have a 90% chance of not getting in trouble, whereas if one of us had to physically put someone to the ground because they might have hurt someone.... we'd be in jail. Not only is their badge powerful as a symbol AND a voucher for their credibility, their knowledge of the law etc is as well... so even out of their jurisdiction they can do many things that we can't safely do.
Welcome to Texas. In Texas we do not have jurisdiction. That is why all cops are called Texas peace officers. If you are really interested on knowing what duties an officer has on or off duty anywhere in the State of Texas look it up under Texas Occupation code 1701
Welcome 10-98. I assume you're an office because I think that's a radio code? If you are, thanks for all that you do wherever you are assigned.
Quote from: Tanyor on October 15, 2008, 03:39:02 PM
Bartering for boobies isn't considered solicitation I suppose.
Just like beads for Marti Gras.
huza to that and i toast men complaining about boobs have issues
Quote from: RenRobin on October 13, 2008, 12:52:11 PM
I say start filming it and email it to the TRF offices so they can actually see what is going on.
now u just sound like a tattletail...they know because it happens every year...all your doing is getting the officers in trouble because they can't be everywhere at once
Quote from: blue66669 on October 13, 2008, 02:12:33 PM
Ok, seriously, why do we even bother with this fire? It's obviously drawing the wrong crowd, and really- we COULD do something different. Why not have another fire, somewhere in a clearing- far from where everything happens. Let the crazies have their fun around the "pseudo-circle", while we go and have the REAL fun elsewhere.
if the main circle goes away the idiots flood our happy camp grounds and ruin it all...i say let them have it, all rennies stay away from it for a season and we sick the cops on them so we stay out of trouble and the issues go away...how bout that rum
If I may add some of my thoughts...
I've been going to faire since about 1992...really didn't get into the whole "rennie" mode until I bought my chain maille in '94. When Brigadoon wasn't even called Brigadoon yet, we camped every weekend, for free. There were hardly ANY people at the old campground. Chaos consisted of 6 guys. And as the years came and went, more and more of us came and camped and found a wonderful place to hang out and have a great time.
I don't think raising the prices at the gate to get into camp is going to fix anything. Did it fix the problem (and it wasn't the full blown problem it is now, but it had the makings) when they started charging $10 per car? No it didnt. And having a ticket to get in the camp? Sorry that won't work either, because the young idiots that are running amok thru camp will just find people to sell said tickets to and get their money back. So, not only do they get to stay and camp and ruin some peoples good time, they also do it for FREE.
Boobs are the least of my worries...my problem is the underage drinking and drug taking that goes on. One year me and a friend carded the young morons coming into my tent asking for beer. Believe me, after the 5th kid came thru and got all pissy, we didn't have that problem anymore. That, and the fact that I do not hesitate to tell someone to either get the hell out of my camp or find Charlie or Mike to deal with them, keeps a lot of riff raff out of my way.
The cess pool, I'm sorry...the drum circle? I agree with some of you...take it down. Haul those big logs away and do NOT have a nice little bundle of sticks waiting to be lit once it gets dark. The few times I go out there? I always get into it with someone. Why? Because I will not stand for some punk getting in my face and "telling" me to move. I go to watch my husband drum, not to be yelled at by some punk(s) who think they "rule" that cess pool, bottom line. It's a FIELD for Pete's sake...and I need to try and move back from the fire with 200 drunks behind me? Yeah right.
Usually though, I keep my happy weed puller in my own camp. There are pleeeeenty of cool people I camp with that I don't need to go find a good time elsewhere. I will go and visit other camps, seasoned veterans of the campground.
And I have to add...I work in Randolph's. Have been a favorite of his for years. He's a great guy and the deal is this: King George does not want to offend any one INSIDE the faire (the people who pay to come inside his faire). So, if Randolph dresses anyone in chain maille, he has to put liners in. That is for inside the faire grounds only. What people wear at the campgrounds, chain maille or otherwise, is not up to Randolph or other chain maille makers.
I also think that maybe if these concerns about camp were addressed to Charlie, Mike and the other officers out there, then they can approach the TRF office and see what can be done. I personally will be super upset if a petition backfires and they just flat out stop camping period. I wait ALL year for this, like many of us do.
Charlie and the rest of the officers are doing their best out there. It's gotta be hard with 1000+ campers and they cannot be everywhere at once. Last year when some yahoo threw a mini keg into the fire and it exploded..Charlie had the fire dept come out and put out the fire, disbanded the cess pool and made all the campers go back to their hidey holes. I thought it was FABULOUS! I personally think they should extinguish that hideous cess pool fire at midnight every weekend! Take away the drunken underage mundanes fun...and they will vanish.
Lock up your valuables. Hide your coolers. Ask your camping neighbors to watch your stuff and you'll do the same for them if you decide to walk thru camp at night. If we band together and lookout for one another, then a lot of the thieving can be taken down. I constantly watch everyones stuff when Im around. And I never ever give people I don't know anything alcoholic to drink. Sorry but I dont know them, they can drink my water or diet coke. If not, they can take a hike.
I would hate to see Charlie or Mike or any of those officers get fired over stories of them "not doing their jobs". It's not right. Put yourself in their shoes. It cannot be easy for them on any level people.
Quote from: LadyTrinn on October 13, 2008, 06:58:11 PM
May I suggest not slamming the security we do have. That job can't be easy....
Also, I stand by my earlier statement....if we don't go to the big fire, the problem will eventually take care of itself...maybe not this year or next but it will happen. I would really hate to have camping across the board taken away as a solution to this issue...(not that I don't think you did a great job on the petition DS, it sounds good...I just don't think thats the solution)
thank u i totally agree
[/quote]
In Texas it's "Impersonating a Peace Officer" and it's a felony.
[/quote]it's only if u say your a cop...i am a 5ft3in female and i broke up a fight by simply threatening that they would go to jail...i am a firefighter and i have the cops on speed dial out there...i never said i would take them to jail just that they would go to jail...there is a difference...oh and u can simply go to jail by telling someone to f^%&ck off...it's called verbal assault...the and his friends were smart enough to walk away
We seem to have a few people who have joined today and have made the majority (if not the entirety) of their posts in this thread.
Firstly ... welcome to all new members. Secondly ... I am notifying you that the posts that contained a slam at a person (or persons) at Excalibur have been deleted. I understand there was some confusion over the auctorial origin but this thread is not going to deteriorate into a flame war.
New members: follow this link and familiarize yourselves with the renaissancefestival.com forum guidelines.
http://www.renaissancefestival.com/forums/index.php?topic=452.msg3287#msg3287
Quote from: MacLaren on October 13, 2008, 08:39:11 PM
I'm still undecided. It was an unpleasant incident. I was on a rant.
Still, management needs to get a firm hold on the insanity there. It would be a great time for all of the clans to get together at a great fire and socialize. Why do we need to put up with punks? I'd gladly kick the bejeebers out of one, even two or three, but I'm not willing to go to jail for it. TRF needs to get a handle on the situation, plain and simple.
This is a critical situation, and needs to be handled in a stern manner. Raise my cost a bit, fine. Require a ticket to get in, fine. gate/fence off the camp, fine. Something needs doing. I'll gladly sign a petition if it's worded properly and there is support from all of us.
JMO
Also, I never got checked for a ticket going in. I don't know who was turned away, but I wasn't.
or be smart enough to not camp near the pit...that's just common knowledge...if u don't like the noise go to quiet family camping or bring ear plugs...the problem will eventually be taken care of..till then be smart and if need be get the cops involved...again common sense...all this is going to do is get rid of camping all together
I know a good number of you. Please don't fight and verbally attack each other. We are all part of the Fairemily. BrigaQueen1, I agree with you. I have been camping at TRF since 1994 and the there are always going to be troublemakers...but having said that. I (too) have found that by (watching different camps & being part of a camp that) makes it clear to the unwanteds (in a civil manner) that we do not have any drugs or alcohol to share or give them...well, they generally don't hang around. I also have bad hearing, so after the third time of saying sorry I really can't hear you...they don't want to deal with me and walk off. I camp with police officers (who only made that known to strangers if they have to at faire), firefighters, and EMTs. We have a closed off camp site. (Of course that is mostly because we don't want the idoits coming into our camp, but when they do we nicely point the way back out.)
It doesn't matter if you are part of the Rogues, Safe Haven, Brigahalla, Chaos, McLotofus, or any of the other wonderful camps...we are all fairemily. We have to band together to make an impact (peacefully). If we fight within our fairemily, it only makes it easier for others to invade and attack our fairemily. I love faire. I love my fairemily. I don't want to see any of you hurt. I love Charlie & Mike for the wonderful people they are and the great job they do. Ya'll are correct in saying that we need more security for the camping grounds. I heard from one of those in the know, that there was over 3,000 campers this past weekend over the 40 acres of camping ground. (I believe they include the actual parking lot in the acreage. I may be wrong...I have known to be before.) As for as stopping the loud music, I don't know what you can do other than tell the police and let them handle it.
Blue hand over that rum.
Gee we must all really be fairemily... this is reminding me of a scene out of a movie where everyone scowls at each other over thanksgiving dinner. I'll be in the living room watching the game and having a beer thanks, lol. ...'did you see that play?? what was he thinking????'
Friends:
First, my apologies to the moderator, I sure hope I did not open a can of worms unnecessarily when I posted about going to the police. So you understand my frame of reference here, I worked very closely with law enforcement for over a decade when I was a paramedic in a crime infested city in New England, and I was also a reserve deputy until I moved south. My sole intent was to make sure that law enforcement was aware of any problems and that they could help clean things up. If something illegal or dangerous is happening, regardless of the location, the proper course of action is to notify the police and let them handle the situation under the laws we all live by. I do not recall any of the posts prior to mine mentioning that they reported these incidents to a police officer on site. I have nothing but respect for all police officers and especially for the ones who make TRF a safe place. My sincerest apologies if I offended anyone.
Quote from: tinkerbell on October 15, 2008, 05:38:45 PM
Quote
In Texas it's "Impersonating a Peace Officer" and it's a felony.
it's only if u say your a cop...i am a 5ft3in female and i broke up a fight by simply threatening that they would go to jail...i am a firefighter and i have the cops on speed dial out there...i never said i would take them to jail just that they would go to jail...there is a difference...oh and u can simply go to jail by telling someone to f^%&ck off...it's called verbal assault...the and his friends were smart enough to walk away
In the context of the conversation, it applies, as we were talking about why it's not a good idea to wear a black shirt with the word "SECURITY" on the front in white letters. Considering the fact that it is blatantly stated on the TRF website that "The grounds are patrolled regularly by police officers," it stands to reason that if you were walking about wearing such a shirt and acting as a security guard, reasonably competent prosecutor could convince a jury that by wearing such a shirt constituted stating that you were a police officer. It would be no different than wearing a toy badge and doing the same thing. You're not saying you're a cop, but the fact that you're wearing it and doing the things you're doing say it for you.
I am anything but an expert but I question having "SECURITY" on a shirt or jacket is enough to get one in trouble for impersonating an officer. They have private security firms and I don't believe they are all official law enforcement personnel. Having "DEA", "ICE" or "MCSD" would be another matter.
Also I know it would burden an already overwhelmed police staff but would a zero tolerance policy on underage drinking possibly help. I've seen officers force an underage drinker to pour out his drink and give them a warning but they quickly get a replacement when the official leaves. I wish they could arrest 'mother's little darling' and make their parents come get them out of jail. I believe if the underage ravers knew they had a good chance or getting picked up and hauled off, they would be less likely to party at the campgrounds.
Lastly, I understand the petition idea but I worry that King George might decide the campgrounds are not worth the money and headache to fix and just close the area. And that would be a terrible loss.
It is truly a terrible thing that our current litigious society prohibits us from forming a vigilante group and policing ourselves. Zorro, where are you when we need you?
Quote from: KeeperoftheBar on October 16, 2008, 07:54:44 AMZorro, where are you when we need you?
While Zorro keeps in line with the romantic time period, we need Batman. To paraphrase Governor Tarkin: "Fear will keep the local ravers in line, fear of the Batman."
Quote from: KeeperoftheBar on October 16, 2008, 07:54:44 AM
Also I know it would burden an already overwhelmed police staff but would a zero tolerance policy on underage drinking possibly help. I've seen officers force an underage drinker to pour out his drink and give them a warning but they quickly get a replacement when the official leaves. I wish they could arrest 'mother's little darling' and make their parents come get them out of jail. I believe if the underage ravers knew they had a good chance or getting picked up and hauled off, they would be less likely to party at the campgrounds.
I completely agree!
As a complete ousider, non-member of any Clan, and...Hell! Not even a resident of Texas, I feel wholly justified in offering my opinion. ::) :P
It seems to me that your best course of action would be to simply start a new Fire/Drum Circle. I don't know the layout of your campgrounds, but it seems there's room. Christ, McLotofus alone sounds like they take up a football field!
It seems a lot of you "old timers" miss the magic and ambience of the original Fire/Drum Cirlce. Truly, I am sorry for your loss, but as Blue pointed out, it's the spirit of the thing, not the location. Also, by creating your new and improved Circle, you can keep an eye on who does and doesn't get in. Someone else mentioned how they used to see people "patrolling" an area and warning others off as it was a "private party". Being in your own area, with a few people acting as "look out" to the undesirables would save a lot of hassle. If a simple "Sorry, this is private/family only" doesn't work, it seems enough of you have various and sundry police officers on speed dial and should be able to make a quick call. Any "legal" or "official" action you take (sorry D.S. nice petition, though!) has the unwanted effect of backlashing onto you as well as your Ravers. I don't see the Faire management enacting rules for "outsiders only" as this opens up a WHOLE new can of potential problems. What I would hate to see is anyone trying to take matters into their own hands. A stand-off doesn't do anyone any good these days. Not every teen or 20-something is ready, willing, and able to "bus' a cap!", but unfortunately, there are enough of them out there who are and odds are you'll find more than a few in your group of Circle-Invading-Hooligans. I think the "Get over it!" opinion so vehemently pointed out earlier is a non-issue. Something obviously needs to be done if women need to be escorted after dark for fear of rape! Ironically enough, it falls to the armed and armored group (rennies) to find the most peaceable solution. If your security is too over taxed, (and from reading this thread, they are) then I'd say it's up to the Clans, Play-trons and Pay-trons alike to band together, establish your boundaries and get back to enjoying Faire and camping on your terms.
Anyways....thems just my 2 cents.
I know conventions like A-Kon in Dallas have volunneers walking around with "SECURITY" T-shirts they man the doors etc to ensure that people have badges to get in. They also clear the halls etc. If there is real trouble the call the police and don't try and handle it themselves.
Quote from: SirRichardBear on October 16, 2008, 09:45:33 AM
I know conventions like A-Kon in Dallas have volunneers walking around with "SECURITY" T-shirts they man the doors etc to ensure that people have badges to get in. They also clear the halls etc. If there is real trouble the call the police and don't try and handle it themselves.
The problem I've seen with the "SECURITY" t-shirts at self-run events, is that, as soon as word gets out that the person wearing the shirt isn't, in fact, any sort of real security gaurd (and it will the first time one of the people wearing the shirts can't back up his or her warnings) then it all goes to Hell and can actually make things harder for real security personnel and off-duty police officers, as people just start assuming no one is actual security.
/I think that's the longest run-on sentence I've ever written! :o
i personally think the best solution to this would be for all the good ol rennies to show up one weekend at the bonfire completely naked. to say, @#*% off to the little kids hanging out there... and just dance naked by the bonfire all nite :) how's that for a solution?
who's down?
*Edited for content by moderator*
:D I don't think anyone wants to see me do that... but y'all have fun with that! ;)
Quote from: rumy on October 16, 2008, 11:25:19 AM
i personally think the best solution to this would be for all the good ol rennies to show up one weekend at the bonfire completely naked. to say, sod off to the little kids hanging out there... and just dance naked by the bonfire all nite :) how's that for a solution?
who's down?
Well, if it wasn't for the fact that a naked me looks awfully like the love child of Chewbacca and a Yeti, I'd be down for it...
Yeti...haha...
Rach, I had a recommendation for you to go as Lady Godiva one day to fair... so I'm sure your nakedness would not offend anyone!!! haha! But do not count me in, but I'm sure you knew that...
Quote from: rumy on October 16, 2008, 11:25:19 AM
i personally think the best solution to this would be for all the good ol rennies to show up one weekend at the bonfire completely naked. to say, @#*% off to the little kids hanging out there... and just dance naked by the bonfire all nite :) how's that for a solution?
who's down?
Can I tan before we do that? But judging by myself, Rumy I don't think dancing around a bonfire will run little boys off. I think it would bring more in your case.
*quote edited for content by moderator*
To paraphase the great Robert Heinlein the sad truth of life is that 90% of the human population look better with their cloth's on than off.
see.... my thought was... women are naked to encourage the men to be naked.... young girl and boys are always scared of big naked men.... eod... no little kids round the campfire :)
Quote from: Element of Air on October 16, 2008, 12:55:47 PM
Quote from: rumy on October 16, 2008, 12:43:08 PM
see.... my thought was... women are naked to encourage the men to be naked.... young girl and boys are always scared of big naked men.... eod... no little kids round the campfire :)
Ahaha, I think it would be great. I can see all the ravers running away screaming that Hippies were taking over.
Sad fact is that the ravers would be running TOWARDS the women, hands outstretched for Kung Fu Groping Action...
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 16, 2008, 12:59:07 PM
hands outstretched for Kung Fu Groping Action...
*snerk* THAT's funny! ;D
ummmmm did i mention that i'll be carrying my flail and whip? ahahahahah ;)
muahahaha
... bunny fur whip that is.... REAL scary rumy!!!!! hahah..... "ooh hit me again"....
grrrrr, arrrrr, raaaarrrrrr
darn it, i'm scary >:( meow...
right? :'(
You know if the ravers saw me scan clothing they might run to the media and report a sighting of Sasquatch. That might even work think of the rumors that the camp grounds at TRF is home of rapant Sasquatch. Works for all those really bad campy SciFi movies.
No... that just atracts all the bigfoot nuts...
And I only dance naked in oak groves... under a full moon...
preferably when it's warm outside!
but maybe if there was a general rumor of "raver sacrifice" at bonfire Sat. night... and a mob of rennies showed up dragging someone nekies, bound and gagged, started dancing around chanting arcane passages and sharpening swords...
On second thought, I'm not sure if they would scatter or stick around waiting to see blood flow... LOL
Wait! Naked dancing!!?? :o
That's it! I'm movin' to Texas!! ::)
Quote from: maelstrom0370 on October 16, 2008, 02:53:08 PM
Wait! Naked dancing!!?? :o
That's it! I'm movin' to Texas!! ::)
You haven't seen naked dancing at ren fair camp? Yeah you mght want to move here.....
Quote from: Yrose on October 16, 2008, 03:03:53 PM
Quote from: maelstrom0370 on October 16, 2008, 02:53:08 PM
Wait! Naked dancing!!?? :o
That's it! I'm movin' to Texas!! ::)
You haven't seen naked dancing at ren fair camp? Yeah you mght want to move here.....
Unfortunately, MiRF is pretty tame compared to other Faires I read about. *Sigh* I miss all the fun :(
When the fire used to rock a few years ago, there were naked boobies out every night while dancing around. One of my girlfriends burned her bra for fun even.... In Austin, Rumy went to a hippy party in the woods and said almost everyone was naked or painted and they did tons of dancing to drums... I think it's just fairly common down here. TX is pretty hot ya know!
Hey Maelstrom, maybe you could start a trend? Hmm, the first to get naked.
With the people I used to hang out with back in the day (before my current girlfriend and the mother of our son put a stop to it I became a respectable family man and all), skinny dipping and naked bonfires were just another Saturday night. Oh well.
I think I would roll over and almost die in hysteria if I walk up and saw a bunch of hairy arses Rennie tinkers dancing naked around the fire pit. What a bloody thought, it might not run the buggers off, but it would put Manny in shock. Till all the young little tarts stated doing it.
I would be chanting for ya'll, but the only worry I have is uTube!!! You might become MORE famous than desired....
Yes after recovering from hysteria I might have to take a photo!
As a person who has been in security {from bouncer at a bar to Fed airport} I can say that a shirt with the word "Security" on it isn't likely to get you in trouble for impersonating a police officer. Though I'm not current on Texas laws specifically. One way around being mistaken for actual law enforcement is to have "Event Security" on the shirt instead.
A suggestion that I've seen work at other camping events, is to have a group of volunteers that patrol at night that are sanctioned by the event owners, keep in contact with radios-cellphones work too, and work with actual law enforcement that are on site as well. They work as a team to keep the undesirables to a minimum. Along with this, the concept of "town watch" helping the Security team out with "heads up" about anything starting to look bad, generally keeps things flowing pretty good. The key thing though is TEAM WORK. Everyone in the campground needs to work together to make it better and keep it calm. It does take a Faire to raise a Fairemily.
Just a friendly suggestion from someone who's dealt with this stuff.
To me, the saddest commentary so far is that the sight of a naked human, any human, should scare someone off. Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder. I guess it depends on what it is you see when you look at another person. :(
Quote from: LadyElizabeth on October 16, 2008, 03:06:33 PM
When the fire used to rock a few years ago, there were naked boobies out every night while dancing around. One of my girlfriends burned her bra for fun even.... In Austin, Rumy went to a hippy party in the woods and said almost everyone was naked or painted and they did tons of dancing to drums... I think it's just fairly common down here. TX is pretty hot ya know!
Was that Eore's birthday party? There are tons of painted people (topless women) with tops painted on them. You have to see them profile or pretty close up to really tell they are topless....and then there is Silverman....lots of dancing and drumming.
Did somebody say "Night Watch?"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Rembrandt_Night_Watch_1642.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Rembrandt_Night_Watch_1642.jpg)
If it's good enough for Rembrandt and the Dutch, it oughta be good enough for camp.
I'd be more apt to deal with Sasquatch nuts than these young....kids. Where's a good Bigfoot when ya need him??
I think we should all stick to our swords, so to speak, look out for one another's belongings and campsites (we all almost know every tride and true rennies camps, who they are, where they are, etc) and not take crap from these ravers. Some of them are easily handled (I myself have scared quite a few off with my big mouth.... and relished it thank you!). If push comes to shove, then get Charlie or one of the other officers and let them handle the more out of control ravers. I've scared a few off with just a mean dirty look.
As far as making a new fire/drum circle? A few of the camps (Valhalla, Safe Haven, etc) already do this and it does make for a better circle, with talented drummers and fine dancers and it's way easier handling the wayward raver who stumbles into our campsite. And although the cess pool is part of the problem, I bet a vast majority of the ravers will slink away if it's not there anymore. Or if they see a few of their own kind getting hauled off in a police car.
I'd go with losing the cess pool for a few seasons, and slowly bring it back.
Quote from: brigaqueen1 on October 16, 2008, 06:39:13 PM
Where's a good Bigfoot when ya need him??
::raises hand::
I've literally spent 2 hours reading EVERY post of this thread out loud to my fiance who is playing World of Warcraft at the moment, sorry we're dorks, LOL! All we can say is how many of you have ever been to a motorcycle rally?
Nakedness- I know there's alot of riders who camp at TRF, example a chapter of the Gypsies out of Round Rock. I've been camping at TRF for 10 years now. I actually used to camp right exactly where the drum circle is held and used to fly my stunt kites in what is now a field of tents! We also go to ROT Rally (Republic of Texas Biker Rally), which is now the 2nd largest motorcycle rally in the states. There's about 40,000 campers on grounds with drunken nakedness around every turn. I myself am topless for the entire span, day and night. I saw David Allen Coe and Joan Jett totally topless. People hand out beads like Mardi Gras but I've gotten picky. I just want to enjoy being topless and not covered in 20lbs of dirty beads. The bikers have a ton of respect for the topless ladies and ask if they can take a pic, if they don't ask we don't slow down. But those that don't will be taken care of. For example, last year a group of guys in a golf cart drove by and smacked my booty and I chased them down and beat them with my beads before the people I was with realized what happened. Just imagine a 5'2" topless woman chasing a golf cart then smacking you across the face with a fistfull of beads from behind. There are literally thousands of pictures floating around the internet of me topless, I've actually met some great people because of it. Being topless is totally legal as long as you don't cause a scene. If your dancing topless in a crowd at the drum circle your bound to cause a scene with that many clothed people! At ROT almost everyone is topless or completely naked, men as well as women, so no one is causing a scene.
Theft- The first time at ROT I went I was so scared to leave stuff out because of my past experiences camping at TRF. I've had things stolen at faire, for example a locked cooler that was chained to the RV walked away with the help of some bolt cutters. ROT- we leave everything unlocked and a radio, camera, coolers, and many other things out on a table at our site and don't have to worry. You don't see many kids out there, it costs $45 for a 4 day for a wristband. You have to show your wristband everytime you ride in and out of grounds. Even if your only there for the concerts.
Funds- I know I was upset when they started charging $5 per vehicle for camping at faire, then they raised it to 10. My man and I ride out separate sometimes because I work at faire and he doesn't get out of his mundane job until late. So that's 20 just to start, I have to be there every weekend, and don't want to sleep alone, so that ends up being $400 just for camping! Sometimes I wish I could camp in Participant, considering I am one. Problem is I'd be camping alone because he wouldn't be allowed. So we pay for camping and pay for him to go inside then pay for things inside. Raising the price of camping is not the greatest idea. With the economy crashing and people going into debt left and right if they raise the prices of things at faire much more most of us wont be able to afford it at all, even if we get paid to be there. I have a few friends who come to camp almost every weekend and may go in 2-3 times a season. They make great lookouts when everyone else is in faire and we love them for it!
Safety- Yeah there was a woman who was sleeping inside her tent when a drunk arse ran over her last weekend. She was lucky, very lucky. My question why didn't someone take his keys? I don't think he even got in any trouble. I sleep in a GP Army tent I'm pretty sure it's big enough not to get ran over! I swear it doesn't matter what you do someone will trip over the ropes and yell "Drunk Trap" every weekend. I've tied caution tape all around them and it still doesn't matter.
Last year I found a young raver girl wandering camp drunk and didn't know where she belonged. She was walking up to random people asking them how to get back to her friends. I took her all over the place until I finally found where she was camped and told her friends if I see her unattended again I'll knock her out drag her back and then beat them too for letting her out of their site again. I saw her the next night and she freaked out when I turned around 2 inches from her face. "My friends are right here. I promise I'm not doing that again. I'm sorry and thank you for watching over me." Her boyfriend was very sincere in his apology since they had been arguing when she ran off. It kills me to think of what could have happened to her. Even though it was a pain it was interesting meeting alot of new people taking her from camp to camp asking "Does she belong to you?" I wander the campground alone at times myself but I am not unarmed. It is legal to carry a pocket knife no longer than the width of a mans hand.
Most important thing, just as our BrigaQueen states, watch out for your fellow campers and don't be afraid to call in the authorities! Bad boys, Bad Boys! Whatcha gonna do when they come for you? LOL!
I can't wait to get out there tomorrow, the weather is great! :)
Quote from: PyroMaster on October 16, 2008, 04:34:43 PM
Beauty is indeed in the eye of the beholder.
I thought the saying was "Beauty is in the eye of the BEER Holder".
~runs and ducks quickly out of sight~
Lady Mousie:
*applause*
I love your attitude.
I like our local ren fest police officer, he has handled problems for the Brothers in the past, quickly in all cases.
Well, changes are being made out at camp.
They are checking for tickets again at the camp entrance!
This is not a panacea but it is a start, more fun and less b*llshit I say!
So I was just informed they're checking tickets because of all the drama. I have a few great friends who can't get in because they can't afford to buy tickets this weekend. It's called being on a budget. They camp close and watch camp when we're working inside. This is not the way to go about things. Just as someone said before Ravers will buy a ticket and keep it for the whole season. Just as I will now escort my friend in since I have a season's worth of undated tickets off the internet I bought at a discounted price last year. Ggrrrr. Why did people have to start all this drama? It's not going to help anything, complaining is only going to end up getting camping shut down.
My question- being a participant do I need a ticket? I have it but that's not the point...
A few years ago the officers would not let you into patrons camp with a participants ID, ticket only.
They would even tell you to go camp inside but this time who knows.
We shall see.
Are they selling tickets at the gate like they did five or six years ago when I started camping?
Yeah someone said that. I think if you can find a Randalls, HEB, Market basket, or Woodforest national bank they sell them too. 18 dollars or 21 at the gate.
Well this is going to piss me off to no end if I can't get in the camp ground tomorrow morning without a ticket. I work inside, but camp at the patrons camp. I prefer to camp in patron's camp because we don't have to follow "lights out" at midnight and be super quiet when it gets dark.
So...now those of us who are decent campers and rennies are going to be turned away without a ticket? We are also on a budget..if we weren't we'd buy tickets and go in the front gate.
Just great...
Just to throw a little gasoline on the fire, requiring tickets is a response that a lot of people have thought might help control a situation that is spiralling out of control, without increasing expenses for King George.
I am sympathetic to those that cannot afford to enter faire every time they want to camp, but I'm also sympathetic to the people that have had vast amounts of valuables stolen by people that have no interest in faire and just see us a willing victims. I hope it does something that controls the problems that, if not soon corrected will result in serious injuries and lawsuits that will close camping to all of us.
Quote from: Spanish_Peacock on October 17, 2008, 05:04:58 PM
A few years ago the officers would not let you into patrons camp with a participants ID, ticket only.
They would even tell you to go camp inside but this time who knows.
We shall see.
I don't see what that really accomplishes. I would like to think that participants are not, as a rule, the troublemakers, and certainly at TRF they would not last long if they were.
I totally agree with you Lord Duelist. I am by no means a trouble maker. I go to TRF every season, every single weekend. And I will agree that maybe having to have a ticket to enter the campground might deter some of the riff raff, but to keep out participants who want to camp out in patrons camp instead of inside the faire? I don't think that's fair. And this won't keep out all the ravers, trouble makers, etc. If they want in bad enough, they will get in. Like I said before...they will buy tickets, get into camp and just sell the tickets and get their money back. Or, buy one ticket, not go inside faire, that way every weekend, they have their way in.
I stick with what I said before...basically, you extinguish the light, and the moths will gather elsewhere. Do away with the drum circle.
Quote from: brigaqueen1 on October 17, 2008, 09:07:44 PM
And this won't keep out all the ravers, trouble makers, etc. If they want in bad enough, they will get in. Like I said before...they will buy tickets, get into camp and just sell the tickets and get their money back. Or, buy one ticket, not go inside faire, that way every weekend, they have their way in.
Two problems, two solutions:
1. Mark the ticket used to get into camp, so they can only be used for that purpose for one weekend.
2. Ban the resale of TRF tickets on TRF property. Why the heck are they allowing that to begin with?
I would think it would be hard to stop the reselling of tickets. There was one season, jeez...looooong time ago I wasn't able to go in the last Sunday, and sold my ticket to someone. I mean yeah they could theoretically mark the tickets per weekend, OR like they do with the camping passes for the cars, date them or color code them to match the car passes. That would make it real hard for them to reuse the same ticket for the next 7 weekends.
But, my husband isn't able to get to camp until like 8 pm on Saturdays. So, from now on he has to buy a ticket every Saturday. And he has a pass, so it's just wasting our money.
Oh great... now I feel bad.
Well from what I gather they were checking for tickets on Thursday last week as well...I may be wrong but I thought that I heard that. Maybe it's just for those coming in on Thursday and Friday night.
We were asked last week on thursday night, when we pulled in, if we had our tickets already. However, I did not actually show them even though I did have them. So I was asked, but not verified.
I've been trying real hard to stay out of this thread. Many people have said the same things over and over. Most I agree with, some I do not.
Those individuals who are infiltrating our campsites and our world are not there to contribute to the fantasy, or enhance the enjoyment, that we associated with this board are there for.
The attendance of these individuals must be curbed. The unfortunate reality is that compromises will have to be made. These compromises are undoubtedly going to inconvenience someone. There is no way around this. History is full of examples of sacrificing the few for the good of the many.
Our clan always has a big cookout on the first Saturday night of the faire. We invite friends of ours who will not be camping. Chances are we may end up being the ones inconvenienced if our dinner guests are unable to get into the campground.
The way I see it, there is always a silver lining. Maybe I'll actually be able to talk some of those dinner guests into actually camping with us. I'm willing to bend if the end result is a camping experience devoid of negative influences on our renaissance experience.
I hope everyone has a great time this weekend and I look forward to seeing everyone again for Highland Fling weekend.
*Wheres that rum Teach - Its past kickin back time*
Already kicked back bro
*rum don't have a time... rumthirty is what time my watch is stuck on*
Quote from: LadyJessica on October 18, 2008, 12:03:08 AM
Well from what I gather they were checking for tickets on Thursday last week as well...I may be wrong but I thought that I heard that. Maybe it's just for those coming in on Thursday and Friday night.
Jess, we rolled in Friday late afternoon and no one asked us to show tickets....or if we even had any...but then again, the car was very obviously packed to the gills with camping/ren stuff so that *might* have been why. I don't know...
So uh, for those of you that havent heard. They caught three guys out of the techno camp trying to steal a tent or something (I'm going off secondhand). They then went over to techno camp to arrest them and someone jacked up the music really loud, so the cops told the entire camp to pack up and LEAVE.
Once again all secondhand, but when we went by there they were completely moved out, and the rumor was everywhere!
Btw, my group found a new way to deal with ravers. We had a group set up by us this weekend.... we went over and made friends. Asked if they were 21 and offered alcohol to those that were, toldem we cooked more than enough and to come by later and were generally just friendly neighbors. Sure enough when the thumping started at night, I went over and asked if they could turn the car around so it pushed the sound into their camp and turn it down just a notch cuz we had some kids and some people that needed to be up early.... they were more than happy to oblige.
A little bit of frontend kindness could/can pay off in the end. I know not all groups are like that, and if people went straight for "turn the music off" it might be a ruined attempt now as they are jaded, but we talked to them when they came to cmp and kinda explained "our" faire, and told all of our stories and not only did they act more respectful, they seemed genuinely interested in giving it a try.... enough so that three of them came out with kilts from faire.
Just food for thought.
I live close enough that camping isn't necessary. It seems to me that anonymous people are making trouble for the regulars. One simple thing might be to have a two part ticket or hangtag, w/the vehicle's plate number & the number of campers for that vehicle attached to the ticket/hangtag. The ticket/hangtag would only be good for that particular vehicle. The ticket/hangtag would need to be numbered for ease in finding which vehicle belonged to which ticket. Maybe camp rules in small print for the driver's signature.
At least the ravers, etc., would know that their vehicles were recorded.
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 19, 2008, 04:37:26 PM
Btw, my group found a new way to deal with ravers. We had a group set up by us this weekend.... we went over and made friends. Asked if they were 21 and offered alcohol to those that were, toldem we cooked more than enough and to come by later and were generally just friendly neighbors. Sure enough when the thumping started at night, I went over and asked if they could turn the car around so it pushed the sound into their camp and turn it down just a notch cuz we had some kids and some people that needed to be up early.... they were more than happy to oblige.
Glad to hear things worked out for the best. Yes, sometimes this approach will work, but there are other times it will not.
Quote from: ScoutColt on October 19, 2008, 04:37:26 PM
Btw, my group found a new way to deal with ravers. We had a group set up by us this weekend.... we went over and made friends. Asked if they were 21 and offered alcohol to those that were, toldem we cooked more than enough and to come by later and were generally just friendly neighbors. Sure enough when the thumping started at night, I went over and asked if they could turn the car around so it pushed the sound into their camp and turn it down just a notch cuz we had some kids and some people that needed to be up early.... they were more than happy to oblige.
A little bit of frontend kindness could/can pay off in the end. I know not all groups are like that, and if people went straight for "turn the music off" it might be a ruined attempt now as they are jaded, but we talked to them when they came to cmp and kinda explained "our" faire, and told all of our stories and not only did they act more respectful, they seemed genuinely interested in giving it a try.... enough so that three of them came out with kilts from faire.
Just food for thought.
That's the ticket... infiltrate, separate and obfuscate!!!
Kindness works in many instances where force simply creates a martyr complex. Perhaps all some of them really need is a welcome, and a little inclusion? Not all, I'm sure, but a few from each camp could go a long way to alleviating many of the problems.
Maybe there could be a Ren Recruiting Force... sort of like a Welcome Wagon, going around to all the non-Ren camps, bringing gifts of Loki (for the grown-ups, of course) and something-on-a-stick, enticing them all to actually come in through the gates and participate! Then they could be gradually turned to the Ren Side... (whispers - join us, join us, join us...)
:D
You can come by our camp with loki and other gifts anytime! Hehe
We've actually never tried loki. Anyway, we're happy to share what we have with anyone. I think this is probably the best idea I've heard for stopping the craziness.
I had heard from one of our neighbors in Valhalla that they did turn away a lot of young people at the gate Friday night...whether they were underage or not I don't know, but that is my guess.
The campground in general wasn't as jam packed as first weekend, and was actually nice and relaxed Sat. night. Some morons were shooting off firecrackers and I know Charlie went over there to find out who did it, but dont know if he actually caught them. (I hope he did!)
And I was asleep early but I heard Sun morning that the officers wound up shutting down the drum circle.
did any of you have problems with getting in without tickets?
They never asked. Lol. They only seem to ask on opening day and they don't care what you give as an answer.
After not camping at TRF since the 70's, I planned to camp over Highland weekend, but all this talk is putting me off the idea.
Nah Zardoz, it's not that bad. Just take a few sensible precautions. For every one jerk out there there are hundreds of really cool people to meet.
Don't let our grousing spoil it for you before you even go.
Once you get your camp set up, its a fantastic feeling just being there!
I'm always glad when I'm there and always sad to leave.
Yes, Zardoz, do not let this little thread, which is really, in the grand scheme of things, a very, very small affair. The Firecircle was not THE reason I camp. It was nice, but not the main attraction. The great people to meet are! the hanging out with friends and making new ones - which happens EVERY time i camp. There are some too drunken idiots at times, and some raver kids that partake in things I do not enjoy (and they call it music!), but a beer or bit of Loki with the folks you came to see make it all just a distant memory.
*Note to self, burn this thread when it comes up again next year....again*
grouching about things doesn't mean over all camping isn't a good experence. For ever drunk annoying kid making noise there are dozens of times meeting up with friends sharing a food and drink listening to real music.
What we really need is a strong piper core then when the techno music starts we can set out a hundred pipers to show them how its really done.
Huzzah to that!
Sir Richard Bear, I absolutely love your idea!! A few pipers even could out blast their music... and a few drunken scotsmen could also be a fairly good detergent to future outbursts... haha... we had a drunken scotsman show up at our campsite this weekend and resite the battle cry from braveheart over and over and over... talk about hilarious!
We had some unwelcome visitors to the campsite that was hosting me this weekend. People showed up, then started their own little party around my hosts fire. You know, when the hosts leave the fire and make it a point to go elsewhere, you'd think that some people would get the hint...
Thank you for that Blue, you beat me to it! LOL! When everyone disapears and you don't see the people you know camp there any longer that probably means you're unwelcome.
Anyway, I knew better than to go to drum circle this weekend in particular because of all the crackdowns. Although I usually don't go anyway unless I'm tagging along with someone I know is a good drummer. Friday night the circle seemed toned down alot, we could actually see the people spinning poi from Brigahalla/Valadoon. Just like usual, the unwanteds come in Saturday during the day, so Saturday night circle was packed.There were ambulances there twice, I know one time was to haul off a girl who was freaking out on drugs. The EMTs would not transport her with out an officer riding along for their safety because she was that bad off.
Another good friend decided to take her sister to see what the main drum circle was all about. Ofcouse this was after I went to bed so I didn't see the aftermath until morning. Her sister was hit in the eye by a projectile thought to be a beer bottle. They drove her to the ER in Tomball and sat there all night to be treated like crap by the techs and doctors. They assumed because she was at drum circle she must have been on something. She had not even had a drop to drink let alone was she on any drugs. The tech just kept talking about the glitter in her hair from earlier in the day considering it was fairy weekend and she had been dusted. At the ER she couldn't see, her eye was almost swollen shut, filled with blood, and has a huge cut under her eye. All they did was tell her she might have a concussion, gave her one vicodin, and used liquid bandage to close the cut beneath her eye. By morning she was in alot of pain, her eye could hardley open when we asked her to try and open it and had nothing except over the counter pain killers to take.
She was treated like crap in the ER because of coming from faire! Her sister is a medical tech and was extremly upset by the doctors in Tomball. She said that the ER was full of faire folk and ravers from camp but that's still no reason to not give better medical attention.
hahaha detergent? when did scotsman start to bath? i don't think thier presence will bring any soapiness to the environment.... ahahahahah
i think u ment deterrent, my ditsy sister.
Sir Richard Bear, BRILLIANT!! Pipes could easily outdo the ravers indeed!
Blue, if that were my camp and I was hosting guests, I'd toss any unwelcome visitors not only for my benefit but yours as well. Although, I did hear that there was a bust Friday night and people got arrested. HUZZAH if this is true!
Lady Mousie, I'm so sorry to hear about your friends sister!! I am now feeling quite lucky that I've never been actually injured at the fire circle or anywhere else for that matter. I could only imagine their reaction to me from this past weekend, my body paint is still visible today from where it dyed my skin in parts and my work chair is filled with glitter.... these are the negatives of being a fairy!!
Quote from: SirRichardBear on October 20, 2008, 08:23:58 AM
What we really need is a strong piper core then when the techno music starts we can set out a hundred pipers to show them how its really done.
I'd travel a long way just to be there for that! ;D
Sorry about your friends sister mousie....that really blows. but at least they were able to get her some med. help.
I just wanted everyone to know the checking tickets things really didn't help because as we've said before alot of the trouble makers come in on Saturday during the day when they're not checking for tickets. They don't have to show tickets, but those of us hard core campers who show up Thursday and Friday have to. When I went in Saturday for work it was still nice and roomy as far as camp spots. By evening the trouble makers were out in full force.
I was pretty happy though that the ravers that were out Friday pretty much stuck back in the trees with the camp across the giant mote back. They were a good distance from most faire campers who would prefer to hear djembe drums over drum and bass. It was rather funny seeing a few of them fall in the mud while I was waiting to meet Blue on the back road. I promise I tried not to laugh but after seeing the third one fall in the mud I couldn't help myself!
Oh Mousie I am so sorry to hear about your friends sister :( I hope she is feeling better and if she comes back, tell her to just hang at valladoon/brigahalla and she will have a good time there!!
Zardoz...yes please don't let this thread deter you from coming to camp. The seasoned campers/rennies are the folk to camp near and hang out with....trust us! You are more than welcome to hang out and/or camp near Brigadoon and Valhalla. We have a good time just sitting around the Valhalla fire. And some of our guys will get their drums out and can actually play them LOL...which is a good time for all!
I probably won't go to the cess pool at all this season. It will most likely be a waste of time and energy. I'd rather hang at my camp or see what other solid rennie campers are doing!
I also think blaring bagpipes are a fantastic idea....I'm all for that!
Quote from: blue66669 on October 20, 2008, 09:34:09 AM
We had some unwelcome visitors to the campsite that was hosting me this weekend. People showed up, then started their own little party around my hosts fire. You know, when the hosts leave the fire and make it a point to go elsewhere, you'd think that some people would get the hint...
Start preaching to them. This is in no way derogatory towards God as I'm a christian. But One thing that gets under my skin is someone preaching to me.
That's it, we can take bag pipes and a few people with those annoying hand mic's and first blast out their music with the lovely tunes of the pipes, and then have someone stand on a soap box with their hand mic and start telling them they're going to hell unless they repent!!! So much fun! BTW, I'm a very solid every sunday church goin' gal, but those soap box damnation corner preacher give the loving christians a bad name!!
Quote from: LadyElizabeth on October 20, 2008, 02:53:36 PM
That's it, we can take bag pipes and a few people with those annoying hand mic's and first blast out their music with the lovely tunes of the pipes, and then have someone stand on a soap box with their hand mic and start telling them they're going to hell unless they repent!!! So much fun! BTW, I'm a very solid every sunday church goin' gal, but those soap box damnation corner preacher give the loving christians a bad name!!
Gotta make sure the pipers are blasting out Amazing Grace, for that extra bit of oomph!!!
OOh... I love that song on the pipes... I can just hear it now!!!!
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 20, 2008, 03:01:43 PM
Quote from: LadyElizabeth on October 20, 2008, 02:53:36 PM
That's it, we can take bag pipes and a few people with those annoying hand mic's and first blast out their music with the lovely tunes of the pipes, and then have someone stand on a soap box with their hand mic and start telling them they're going to hell unless they repent!!! So much fun! BTW, I'm a very solid every sunday church goin' gal, but those soap box damnation corner preacher give the loving christians a bad name!!
Gotta make sure the pipers are blasting out Amazing Grace, for that extra bit of oomph!!!
Just make sure it's not the head banger version, with pipes and metal guitar!!!! You'd never get rid of 'em...
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on October 20, 2008, 03:09:59 PM
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 20, 2008, 03:01:43 PM
Quote from: LadyElizabeth on October 20, 2008, 02:53:36 PM
That's it, we can take bag pipes and a few people with those annoying hand mic's and first blast out their music with the lovely tunes of the pipes, and then have someone stand on a soap box with their hand mic and start telling them they're going to hell unless they repent!!! So much fun! BTW, I'm a very solid every sunday church goin' gal, but those soap box damnation corner preacher give the loving christians a bad name!!
Gotta make sure the pipers are blasting out Amazing Grace, for that extra bit of oomph!!!
Just make sure it's not the head banger version, with pipes and metal guitar!!!! You'd never get rid of 'em...
LOL! Dropkick Murphys ROCK!
BrigaQueen~ not sure if you know Dallas, but it was actually her sister. She had been hanging out with us all night :-) and making smores!
Then I went to bed and that's when the trouble started. Not only her being hurt but one of the unwanteds falling asleep and waking up to find himself with a new persona as a dirt fairy! Luckily I did get to see a glimpse of him trying to get the last of the permanent marker off his face in the morning. Although it sounds as they may have gone a little far with this one I still think it's hilarious!
Insert Quote
BrigaQueen~ not sure if you know Dallas, but it was actually her sister. She had been hanging out with us all night :-) and making smores!
Then I went to bed and that's when the trouble started. Not only her being hurt but one of the unwanteds falling asleep and waking up to find himself with a new persona as a dirt fairy! Luckily I did get to see a glimpse of him trying to get the last of the permanent marker off his face in the morning. Although it sounds as theymay have gone a little far with this one I still think it's hilarious!
Posted on: Today at 03:23:15 PMPosted by:
I think it was 2 years ago, in Valhalla or Brigadoon, some dunk Kid came in to camp and plopped down in one of the chairs and passed smooth out. They wrapped him in silly string and TP and dumped trash on him. I wonder what he thought when he woke up.
Camped with some friends this past weekend and i tell ya what the police were in full force. Spoke with one of the officers and they said ravers will not be tolerated. We walked to the drum circle saturday night and they were busting kids left and right for underage drinking and drugs. Soon after we left they shut the drum circle down for the lingering smell of drugs. and cops were in patrol all night long. PLUS they added signs stating "Nighttime Camping security call this number 8324825651" It did help i didnt hear the loud annoying noise of techno thumping music like first weekend. :) Im thinking the rift raft maybe finally seeing this isnt for them.
Well I haven't partaken in any of the "dirt fairy" shenanigans...Im usually asleep by then, but either hear about it or actually see the aftermath in the morning. The "rule" is...if you make it to your tent/bed, you're safe...if you pass out in a chair or ground....well....you can get tied to the chair, made up with ladies makeup, nails painted, glittered, shrink wrapped to the chair, etc. I wasn't aware that Sat. nights "dead guy" was drawn on with permanent marker. Must have been a scrub fest trying to get all that off his face. From the pictures i saw, it looked like he was "insane clown posse-ed".
One year we did make tin foil bunny ears for some guy lying in the dirt (I was a part of that one)....then there was another guy in the back of a truck with beer cans balanced on his head and a massive amount of fairy glitter in his hair. Then our friend Kelly's plan backfired on her when she herself passed out on the ground, and was promptly silly stringed with her own cans!! I think they also tried putting a pumpkin on her head.
Quote from: SolRac on October 20, 2008, 06:40:43 PM
Camped with some friends this past weekend and i tell ya what the police were in full force. Spoke with one of the officers and they said ravers will not be tolerated. We walked to the drum circle saturday night and they were busting kids left and right for underage drinking and drugs. Soon after we left they shut the drum circle down for the lingering smell of drugs. and cops were in patrol all night long. PLUS they added signs stating "Nighttime Camping security call this number 8324825651" It did help i didnt hear the loud annoying noise of techno thumping music like first weekend. :) Im thinking the rift raft maybe finally seeing this isnt for them.
Nice. well hopefully it will deterrent the the disrespectful kids from future use of the TRF camp grounds.
Quote from: brigaqueen1 on October 20, 2008, 08:50:37 PM
Well I haven't partaken in any of the "dirt fairy" shenanigans...Im usually asleep by then, but either hear about it or actually see the aftermath in the morning. The "rule" is...if you make it to your tent/bed, you're safe...if you pass out in a chair or ground....well....you can get tied to the chair, made up with ladies makeup, nails painted, glittered, shrink wrapped to the chair, etc. I wasn't aware that Sat. nights "dead guy" was drawn on with permanent marker. Must have been a scrub fest trying to get all that off his face. From the pictures i saw, it looked like he was "insane clown posse-ed".
One year we did make tin foil bunny ears for some guy lying in the dirt (I was a part of that one)....then there was another guy in the back of a truck with beer cans balanced on his head and a massive amount of fairy glitter in his hair. Then our friend Kelly's plan backfired on her when she herself passed out on the ground, and was promptly silly stringed with her own cans!! I think they also tried putting a pumpkin on her head.
Hey wait a minute, I was told that if you have your shoes off, it shows an intent to sleep in the chair, therefore you are safe from being dirt faerie'd.
OH MY GOSH!!! I had no idea people still played high school pranks, but I absolutely love it! Thankfully if I get wasted I have others with me to guide me back to my bed, but I seriously would love to get in on some dirt fairying of others at some point.... hehe.... I have a few very "interesting" ideas.... hehe
Quote from: brigaqueen1 on October 20, 2008, 08:50:37 PM
Well I haven't partaken in any of the "dirt fairy" shenanigans...Im usually asleep by then, but either hear about it or actually see the aftermath in the morning. The "rule" is...if you make it to your tent/bed, you're safe...if you pass out in a chair or ground....well....you can get tied to the chair, made up with ladies makeup, nails painted, glittered, shrink wrapped to the chair, etc. I wasn't aware that Sat. nights "dead guy" was drawn on with permanent marker. Must have been a scrub fest trying to get all that off his face. From the pictures i saw, it looked like he was "insane clown posse-ed".
One year we did make tin foil bunny ears for some guy lying in the dirt (I was a part of that one)....then there was another guy in the back of a truck with beer cans balanced on his head and a massive amount of fairy glitter in his hair. Then our friend Kelly's plan backfired on her when she herself passed out on the ground, and was promptly silly stringed with her own cans!! I think they also tried putting a pumpkin on her head.
The rules are as follows;
If you are in your own camp, you are safe regardless of whether you are in your tent or not as you safe within the confines of your camp. If you are in someone elses camp, and have removed your shoes, you are safe as removal of shoes indicates an intent to "camp" there for the night. HOWEVER, if you are in someone elses camp and you pass out and your shoes are still upon your feet, you are fair game because you have not made the visual indicator (shoe removal) of an intent to camp there. Stating "I'm gonna Crash here", does NOT count as an indicator of intent to camp. Please observe and follow the rules. Thank you.
*scribbles on her walmart shopping list* ...silly string....
Now -- I might repeat might consider utilizing my preaching experience for the good of the cause -- WITH a band of about thirty heavilly armed scotsmen between me and the rabble... AND a phalanx of thick plexiglass shields... And a kevlar vest beneath my cloak...AND...
hhhmmmm.....what was it that I posted earlier??? oh yes....
Quote from: Bonny Pearl on October 13, 2008, 07:18:08 PM
I really wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a huge bust sooner or later. That would remedy the problem for a while at least.
Obviously folks have let it be known to the authorities of the problems with drugs and minors drinking and I say kudos to the police for handling the issues. I am sure word has spread like wildfire that the 'party is over' or soon will be. I am glad that no has had to take it upon themselves to curb the ravers/kids enthusiasm in a forceful way and everyone has stayed relatively safe.
I wanted to add my kudos to the policemen. Thanks for addressing the problem!!
Quote from: Aiacha on October 21, 2008, 09:33:26 AM
*scribbles on her walmart shopping list* ...silly string....
Adds glitter to Aiacha's shopping list....
Quote from: Bonny Pearl on October 21, 2008, 10:11:14 AM
hhhmmmm.....what was it that I posted earlier??? oh yes....
Quote from: Bonny Pearl on October 13, 2008, 07:18:08 PM
I really wouldn't be surprised if there ends up being a huge bust sooner or later. That would remedy the problem for a while at least.
Obviously folks have let it be known to the authorities of the problems with drugs and minors drinking and I say kudos to the police for handling the issues. I am sure word has spread like wildfire that the 'party is over' or soon will be. I am glad that no has had to take it upon themselves to curb the ravers/kids enthusiasm in a forceful way and everyone has stayed relatively safe.
Honestly, I credit this thread for being the catalyst for change. If not for this thread, the issues at hand would not have been brought to such light, and consequently, the TRF security folks might not have found out exactly what was going on until later.
So HUZZAH to us!
Quote from: LadyJessica on October 21, 2008, 10:28:13 AM
Quote from: Aiacha on October 21, 2008, 09:33:26 AM
*scribbles on her walmart shopping list* ...silly string....
Adds glitter to Aiacha's shopping list....
Adds disappearing ink to the list...
Dump a bucketful on the ravers and watch them get angry and go to complain, only to find out that when they get there, there's no evidence of wrongdoing...
DS, you are incorrigible!! (I like it ;) )
Quote from: Catherine DArtois on October 21, 2008, 10:41:50 AM
DS, you are incorrigible!! (I like it ;) )
you know, you aren't the first one to say that... ::looks pointedly at tigerlilly::
I'm sure there's a list....
After seeing some of the things done back when Excal was still around (yes I aware there is a new faire there now) Now when I go to friends camps my shoes are always off! You can pretty much as anyone I have camped aroudn I hate shoes anyways and have a tendancy to not wear them until I am walking around.
QuoteIf you are in your own camp, you are safe regardless of whether you are in your tent or not as youre safe within the confines of your camp
Woah...not in our camp....ask my friend Kelly I wrote about....she's Brigadoon and her own peeps got her! All's fair at faire I suppose LOL. At least in our camp, I can't really say we are safe in the slightest by any means lol....and of course I mean that in a halfway good way muahahaha.....
Never heard of the shoe rule before....I dont go barefoot out there period...I dont know whats on the ground...and part of me doesn't
want to know! EEW!
Another rule we all go by is this: NO LURKING! If you make it to Brigadoon and there's noise and merriment coming from some of the GP's...call out, come on in and hang out for a bit....don't hang outside the door peeking in. Looks like you're up to no good! This tends to happen a lot when it's cold out and the stoves are going....hey...if you need to warm up to make it back to your own camp...come on in and warm up by the stove! That's what it's there for ;)
Well I have a quirk that when I'm sitting I dont' like my feet to touch the floor, so typcially if I'm sitting in camp my shoes are on the ground and I'm curled in my chair. When I'm going a walk around not not typically in a camp long enough to gert settled too much..
I agree! I hate lurking, people just seem to want to linger by the door! Come on in, don't just stand there!
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 21, 2008, 10:42:51 AM
Quote from: Catherine DArtois on October 21, 2008, 10:41:50 AM
DS, you are incorrigible!! (I like it ;) )
you know, you aren't the first one to say that... ::looks pointedly at tigerlilly::
Just because I actually wrote your name in the dictionary next to "incorrigible"...
Dirt Fairies, huh? Well, there's yet another good reason to have duct tape with the camping equipment. (http://web.aanet.com.au/ryzilla/smilies/plotting.gif)
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on October 21, 2008, 10:38:41 AM
Honestly, I credit this thread for being the catalyst for change. If not for this thread, the issues at hand would not have been brought to such light, and consequently, the TRF security folks might not have found out exactly what was going on until later.
So HUZZAH to us!
Yes, DS, I was including this thread as 'folks' and I recall you mentioning you had a meeting scheduled to talk to someone about all of this. ;D
I'm just happy things are settling down and people who haven't camped at TRF yet see that it is a community where concerns are heard and handled appropriately. If anything, we are all there for merriment, friendship and I see a strong sense of community while there and it just makes me all warm and fuzzy inside and, and ....... I need a tissue now, because I'm going to start blubbering....
*sniffle, sniffle...I just love you guys!!!*
Quote from: Bonny Pearl on October 21, 2008, 12:16:28 PM
Yes, DS, I was including this thread as 'folks' and I recall you mentioning you had a meeting scheduled to talk to someone about all of this. ;D
I'm just happy things are settling down and people who haven't camped at TRF yet see that it is a community where concerns are heard and handled appropriately. If anything, we are all there for merriment, friendship and I see a strong sense of community while there and it just makes me all warm and fuzzy inside and, and ....... I need a tissue now, because I'm going to start blubbering....
*sniffle, sniffle...I just love you guys!!!*
You're warm and fuzzy inside, to the privey quickly :P
Quote from: brigaqueen1 on October 21, 2008, 11:27:44 AM
QuoteIf you are in your own camp, you are safe regardless of whether you are in your tent or not as youre safe within the confines of your camp
Woah...not in our camp....ask my friend Kelly I wrote about....she's Brigadoon and her own peeps got her! All's fair at faire I suppose LOL. At least in our camp, I can't really say we are safe in the slightest by any means lol....and of course I mean that in a halfway good way muahahaha.....
Never heard of the shoe rule before....I dont go barefoot out there period...I dont know whats on the ground...and part of me doesn't want to know! EEW!
Another rule we all go by is this: NO LURKING! If you make it to Brigadoon and there's noise and merriment coming from some of the GP's...call out, come on in and hang out for a bit....don't hang outside the door peeking in. Looks like you're up to no good! This tends to happen a lot when it's cold out and the stoves are going....hey...if you need to warm up to make it back to your own camp...come on in and warm up by the stove! That's what it's there for ;)
~makes a mental note to NOT pass out at Brigadoon~
To make a comment on the actual reasonf ro this thread..
Since the bonfire made it was from in front of chaos all those years ago, I can count on one hand how many times I have been to it on one hand. All those times, minus one I have always had TWO male escorts and they never leave me more than half an arms length away. Now that being said, sunday night is whole other bag of cookies. It is so dead that night is actually quite nice. Friday and Saturday though you can pretty much kiss it off, after a very bad situation several years ago..
I am very glad to here that the meyham is getting under control. Thank you to whomever it was reading, meeting or communicating
with the home office to get this taken care of, and to help keep everyone safe. ;D
Also, probably not a good idea to walk around any camp barefoot, or in faire for that matter. I know quite a few of us who have GPs use rebar or rr stakes. Even though we try to busy them in the ground you still might get your foot cut. Trust me I know from experience! Sharp pointy things to cut your feet on can be lying around anywhere and your more likely to trip or run into something or someone if your starring at the ground watching for things that might hurt.
RenRobin, you have a point. I seriously think that either fair management is on here reading this thread, or we have an R/Fer informing them of the issues. It seems they've come up with a pretty effective way to deal with the riff-raff out at the bonfire!! Huzzah to management who actually care about us little people's opinions!!!
Although I am happy, very happy infact, that management has started to crack down on this I'm afraid to say I still will not go down to the drum circle on Friday and Saturdays.. It just been a little too late in my eyes, which is sad..
Riot- "To make a comment on the actual reason for this thread..
Since the bonfire made it was from in front of chaos all those years ago, I can count on one hand how many times I have been to it on one hand."
Brigadoon actually moved it out because someone decided to throw a dry ice bomb in the crowd and the cap from the bottle hit Charlie in the face. Among other things was the underage kiddos and the amount of clean up. The best way to get control of camp was to move it out, which is why it's a short walking distance from Brigadoon. It became much larger in the years since.
I do think that checking for camping tags would be a better idea than asking if people have tickets. Seriously, most of the unruly people show up Saturday when everyone is inside faire. I know in years past there have been tow trucks onsite to fish vehicles out of the mud. I'm sure King George, ::bows::, wouldn't have to fork out much money since tow trucks would love to come tow people out of there if they're not properly tagged. Only problem is how packed camping gets it would be hard to get a tow truck in and out. They would also probably have to be escorted by an officer to just incase the owner of said non tagged vehicle shows up while loading. Mabey there should be some way to ticket those people without a tag? Have to consider all the aspects... hhmmm still thinking of a good solution...
I remember why it was moved(not so much the specific event,but I remember it was something pretty bad like that) I was just stating that since it was moved I can count how many times I've been to it and why. Of course it didn't help that the offical story that was going to those that were no regulars was it was TRF's management that changed it because they wanted to start it as a event focused more to the mundane crowd. That what I think was the first mistake of not correcting the story. I can not tell you by how many people I had heard that from and I kept saying.. that was untrue.
Quote from: Lady Mousie on October 21, 2008, 03:25:50 PM
I do think that checking for camping tags would be a better idea than asking if people have tickets. Seriously, most of the unruly people show up Saturday when everyone is inside faire. I know in years past there have been tow trucks onsite to fish vehicles out of the mud. I'm sure King George, ::bows::, wouldn't have to fork out much money since tow trucks would love to come tow people out of there if they're not properly tagged. Only problem is how packed camping gets it would be hard to get a tow truck in and out. They would also probably have to be escorted by an officer to just incase the owner of said non tagged vehicle shows up while loading. Mabey there should be some way to ticket those people without a tag? Have to consider all the aspects... hhmmm still thinking of a good solution...
And what about the participants who drive through the back gate and stop in the camping area to visit with our friends who do NOT have a camping parking pass? We have the participants pass and hang tag in our vehicles but that does NOT allow for 'free' entry into the camping area from the main camping entrance.
I know right! It's really annoying! I thought I wouldn't have to pay for a pass since I already had one but noooo it's not good on that side of the fence!
We're not supposed to interact with playtrons. We could get our participant badges revoked for it. Stupid in my opinion.
I believe that was done because the participants were staying up all night playing with the playtrons ending up a bit under the weather, impairing them in performing their duties the next day ;D
The show must go on and all that.
I know it used to be a firing offense for cast & certain high profile participants to cross the wire. Something about maintaining the illusion. Not positive how strict that is now.
Fools can mess things up for everyone.
Camping at RPFS is, at best, marginal.
Since Agoura days, we've had to rely on the availability of sites at large public parks.
We had a "permanent" site in San Bernardino County at Devore until some folks decided to engage in some night time activities that the local politicians could latch onto as a reason to terminate the agreement.
Los Angeles County allowed us to continue at the park at Santa Fe Dam but would allow no camping on the basis of what they'd heard from our "friends" in San Bernardino. OUr GM had pretty well gotten an agreement worked out to allow some camping beyond "security" camping to safeguard booths and environmental areas with the understanding that there'd be no alcohol. Unfortunately some clown decided to get drunk and scale the climbing tower, fell,and broke (I think) his arm. Back to square one.
So the quandry is whethr to get a public agency involved or attempt to deal with the problem internally. If a Security group is formed, it should probably have the blessing of the event.
I agree that some participants who have really detailed hard roles to do all weekend long, that trf would prefer them to stay and sleep behind the scenes. Doesn't make for a good character if you're hungover or just too tired from staying up late. But, I am lucky to have a real flexible "routine" at the shop so I can get inside a little later.
Every weekend won't be as packed as first weekend though. Second weekend wasn't and those who couldn't make it were missed, but since they were herding the riff raff out, it made for a real nice weekend at camp. I hope they can keep that up, and keep the raver mundane crowd to a minimum. I have met some genuine, decent mundanes over the years who camp, but maybe once or twice a season, and do not cause trouble. They just like being around us "weirdos" and simply want to enjoy the camping experience and on occasion, do go inside.
I've heard some of us (my husband included) say things like "The camping is what makes trf the most fun." And, ok in a way I do agree with that, but I personally love going inside. There are so many people I only see inside faire at the Devil, who I don't get to see at camp that evening, simply because there is cooking going on we attend to, or I take a nap, go to bed early, etc. I look at the faire/camping as a whole. For me, I can't have one without the other.
I realize this is my first post, but I do plan to stick around (I actually joined to ask garbing questions).
We camped at the faire last weekend, and I didn't see anyone cracking down on anything outside of the fire. Sometime around 1 in the morning, a group of 10 or so kids (age 16-18ish) set up camp less than 2 feet from our tents. They drank and smoked all night, SCREAMING about how high they were, and how they had some bad shrooms, yelling profanity all.night.long. They left their rap music on full blast all.night.long. You could hear booing from all corners of the camp it was so loud (we were nowhere near the fire). They did not go to faire in the morning. No one in our camp got any sleep which put a bit of a damper on the festivities the next day.
But my thought is, if you've got these kids, set up by a main fork in the road, obviously smoking, drinking, yelling endlessly about what drugs they're on and bothering the whole camp with their music, with no camping tag, why wouldn't the police run them off?
Sunday we did not see a single patrol, but I assume it was because of the two emergencies, and stuff like that just can't be helped.
I can't compare to years past, but it certainly didn't look like there was any action happening; those kids should have been a prime target.
Quote from: Sk8ermaiden on October 21, 2008, 05:40:52 PM
I realize this is my first post, but I do plan to stick around (I actually joined to ask garbing questions).
We camped at the faire last weekend, and I didn't see anyone cracking down on anything outside of the fire. Sometime around 1 in the morning, a group of 10 or so kids (age 16-18ish) set up camp less than 2 feet from our tents. They drank and smoked all night, SCREAMING about how high they were, and how they had some bad shrooms, yelling profanity all.night.long. They left their rap music on full blast all.night.long. You could hear booing from all corners of the camp it was so loud (we were nowhere near the fire). They did not go to faire in the morning. No one in our camp got any sleep which put a bit of a damper on the festivities the next day.
But my thought is, if you've got these kids, set up by a main fork in the road, obviously smoking, drinking, yelling endlessly about what drugs they're on and bothering the whole camp with their music, with no camping tag, why wouldn't the police run them off?
Sunday we did not see a single patrol, but I assume it was because of the two emergencies, and stuff like that just can't be helped.
I can't compare to years past, but it certainly didn't look like there was any action happening; those kids should have been a prime target.
THey had signs all over about nighttime security phone number posted all over. Mike came right through our camp to check on things making his rounds. I added the phone number in my cell for that very reason you spoke of. The phone number is up a few posts add it to your cell just in case.
I agree....I put the # in my phone too....Charlie does stop by our camp throughout the night to check in, say hello, get some food :) etc. But it's good to have the # right there in your cell when and if you need it.
If possible though, try to make sure you can tell the officers where youre camp is...in the dark its pretty hard to find campsites...I always go by the parking lot rows or use the cess pool as a starting point when telling people where our camp is.
Got the number added in my phone too. Never know when that may come in handy.
I generally like to deal with my own kidiots in my own fashion (teacher thing I guess) but I don't want to play with 'em at faire.
*Little buggers try to talk me out of my rum sometimes... not a chance*
My vote is for shutting down the drum circle. We don't need it, and it only causes problems. The girl that got hit in the face with the bottle, leaving her name out for her privacy, it was her first time at faire. I don't know about the rest of you, but it hurts my heart to think she took away that impression of what we do out there. And she's said that she may not come out again. That's just sad. It is sad to think that someone thinks that way about something I love so much.
Our friends camped in our usual spot last weekend and got all of their alcohol stolen from inside their tent. We've bought small locks for the zippers on our tents and will take our lawn chairs, stove, ice chests, etc., and lock them in the tents now before heading inside. Hopefully, with the stuff out of sight, they will move on. I HATE that it's come to this >:(
Quote from: ~*Lovely Lisa*~ on October 22, 2008, 01:37:28 PM
My vote is for shutting down the drum circle. We don't need it, and it only causes problems. The girl that got hit in the face with the bottle, leaving her name out for her privacy, it was her first time at faire. I don't know about the rest of you, but it hurts my heart to think she took away that impression of what we do out there. And she's said that she may not come out again. That's just sad. It is sad to think that someone thinks that way about something I love so much.
I agree it would be ashame to tarnish the camp grounds. I would only ask that more law enforcement be there to assist Charlie. I'm 38 and I'm not the get off my lawn guy but I am be respectful guy at all times and the kids and punks are out of hand. Last year Charlie ran some drunk guys off for us, no fire ring, trash everywhere and not a 21 year old in the bunch.
Huzzah to Charlie, he works hard for our enjoyment.
Quote from: Lady Laura on October 22, 2008, 01:48:21 PM
Our friends camped in our usual spot last weekend and got all of their alcohol stolen from inside their tent. We've bought small locks for the zippers on our tents and will take our lawn chairs, stove, ice chests, etc., and lock them in the tents now before heading inside. Hopefully, with the stuff out of sight, they will move on. I HATE that it's come to this >:(
Also I would put locks on the coolers as well. You can bend a hasp to lock the lid to the cooler. We had to start doing it a music fest, and haven't have our cooler raided since.
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1287209&cp=&sr=1&kw=lock&origkw=lock&pg=12&parentPage=search&searchId=31704129443
It is unfortunate that we must contend with these people, but sadly it appears to be the way things are headed out there. Locks on your tents? all that is going to do is keep honest people honest, and we are not talking about honest people here. We are talking about no good thieves. A lock is not going to stop someone who really wants in your tent. Your best option to keep your things that you want safe is to lock it up in your vehicle when you are away from camp.
Sadly that's what I was thinking as well.. A lock will more than likely not keep a thief out of your tent if they want in bad enough, and if the cooler was locked, they may as well steal the whole thing and break the lock off to get the goods... Rotten no good little................... well you know what's....
Pretty sure we will be keeping everything locked up in the car whilst we play at faire...
What a bummer... >:(
Well I know in past year that is what has happened. They just take the whoel cooler and sometimes the cooler is found along the back fence line and sometimes it isn't. I rememebr when Bacardi's (I think it was Bacardi's) was taken, his was by his tent and ours were not even like 20 feet away under the pavilions and they took his and not ours. They tried to take Necro's that night as well, but he heard them and grunted and shook the tent and they scurried off. One year McShuggenah had a dog kennel brought up to camp and we put in under the big pavilion we used to rent and certain people had keys. All Coolers and other small items where put in there and nothing was taken that weekend. Due to space we never did that again though.
Last year was my first year camping and we piled most belongings in our tent and put locks on the zipper. and we put the more valuable items (booze!) in the car. I guess we're just naturally paranoid.
Maybe I missed it, but are they checking for tickets now? We wanna show up on friday and plan on buying weekend passes, will this present a problem?
Just keep someone in camp. We rotate couples or individuals. We shouldnt have to, but if your that worried about your stuff it's a 100% effective precaution.
Quote from: CahirDochartaigh on October 22, 2008, 04:02:19 PM
Last year was my first year camping and we piled most belongings in our tent and put locks on the zipper. and we put the more valuable items (booze!) in the car. I guess we're just naturally paranoid.
Maybe I missed it, but are they checking for tickets now? We wanna show up on friday and plan on buying weekend passes, will this present a problem?
It shouldn't be an issue...
I do lock up the electronics, heaters and big bags of wood in my car, right beside my taser and baseball bat.
We absent-mindedly left a cooler outside of our tent on Saturday night opening weekend. It was stolen in the night. I wonder what the thieves thought when they opened it to find a few open packages of raw meat and no booze. Hehe
probably something along the lines of....."what the?!?!?!?! who the hell keeps this type of crap in a cooler? where's the booze dangnubbit?!?!?!"
Quote from: Riot on October 22, 2008, 02:50:26 PM
Well I know in past year that is what has happened. They just take the whoel cooler and sometimes the cooler is found along the back fence line and sometimes it isn't. I rememebr when Bacardi's (I think it was Bacardi's) was taken, his was by his tent and ours were not even like 20 feet away under the pavilions and they took his and not ours. They tried to take Necro's that night as well, but he heard them and grunted and shook the tent and they scurried off. One year McShuggenah had a dog kennel brought up to camp and we put in under the big pavilion we used to rent and certain people had keys. All Coolers and other small items where put in there and nothing was taken that weekend. Due to space we never did that again though.
I have a 90 lb Retired German Shepard Police dog named OZ, my wife and I will be there next year, we can put all the booze and valuables in the kennel....I bet the little sob's wont get em.....
true except no pets are allowed at the campsight >:( just like the peanuts cartoon..."NO DOGS ALLOWED"
I've been going for almost 15 years and not a year passes that I don't run into one dog during the weekend.
usually not big dogs though, and if they bark they will get removed sadly :-( I saw it happen last weekend next to us. Really awesome friendly dog but he couldnt go play with all the people so he'd bark and run around... they rolled up and told the folks to get out.
I keep all my things in my jeep. Sat night when I am back at camp, it goes in the tent with us. Andy locks his van up tight when he gets there and unloads. I try and park my jeep where I can see it from Brigadoon and Valhalla. I don't even put up with people standing near it lol. I've ran off a few punks who were just standing there.
I'd rather lock up my stuff in my husbands van for the night then chance something getting ripped off. It's really not that much extra to do. Besides me and my big mouth usually keeps people I dont know and the deviants away from my stuff. I've also yelled at people I see peeking into the other GPs! Whether the owners told them they could (which is the case sometimes) I don't know that, so I'd rather be branded a b*itch than having my friends belongings rifled through and stolen.
Quote from: brigaqueen1 on October 22, 2008, 07:55:27 PM... I'd rather be branded a b*itch than having my friends belongings rifled through and stolen.
You... are our type of camper... Campers who aren't afraid to challenge someone and run them off if they don't belong there... Huzzah to you!
Aye, huzzah to you Brigaqueen! About 8 years ago I had several of my things stolen right out of Brigadoon's tent in the middle of the afternoon - one was my St. Arnold's beer hat that I was wearing while I was sleeping! I've had 3 wooden mugs stolen inside and playtrons camps, usually the same day I bought them. Now I sleep inside a locked SUV with the alarm on.
Around that same year, 2000 or '01, thieves hitched an entire tent, with garb and swords inside, to the back of their truck and drug it off on Monday morning before I could drive my friends to it from the employee campsite.
OMG I had no idea that happened to you, and in Brigadoon. I am so sorry :(
Well Messyn, on a Monday morning I'm not to supprised, all the local scavengers come rolling into the camp ground and start taking every thing thats not packed up. I watched them last year on closing weekend picking up firewood, anything that was made of metal or anything they could get there hands on. Some one in a flatbed truck with a trailer was digging through the trash pile.
So I just thought I'd inform everyone that those folks that were setting up camp this evening were all asked to show their tickets before they could enter the campground. Just sayin'.
Thanks for letting us know!!!!
Quote from: newbiehere on October 22, 2008, 04:59:38 PM
We absent-mindedly left a cooler outside of our tent on Saturday night opening weekend. It was stolen in the night. I wonder what the thieves thought when they opened it to find a few open packages of raw meat and no booze. Hehe
Who was it that left a bottle chocolate liquor loaded with 3 boxes of chocolate exlax blended smooth in a 1/2 bottle. It was stolen in the night by a bunch of silly little runts or was it runny little anyway, you get the idea.
Quote from: Brother Octavius on October 23, 2008, 09:41:27 PM
Quote from: newbiehere on October 22, 2008, 04:59:38 PM
We absent-mindedly left a cooler outside of our tent on Saturday night opening weekend. It was stolen in the night. I wonder what the thieves thought when they opened it to find a few open packages of raw meat and no booze. Hehe
Who was it that left a bottle chocolate liquor loaded with 3 boxes of chocolate exlax blended smooth in a 1/2 bottle. It was stolen in the night by a bunch of silly little runts or was it runny little anyway, you get the idea.
That's funny!!! I am so cashing in on that idea!!! Exlax in a lovely Godiva bottle.. :D ;D :-X
Quote from: Muffin on October 23, 2008, 09:52:37 PM
Quote from: Brother Octavius on October 23, 2008, 09:41:27 PM
Quote from: newbiehere on October 22, 2008, 04:59:38 PM
We absent-mindedly left a cooler outside of our tent on Saturday night opening weekend. It was stolen in the night. I wonder what the thieves thought when they opened it to find a few open packages of raw meat and no booze. Hehe
Who was it that left a bottle chocolate liquor loaded with 3 boxes of chocolate exlax blended smooth in a 1/2 bottle. It was stolen in the night by a bunch of silly little runts or was it runny little anyway, you get the idea.
That's funny!!! I am so cashing in on that idea!!! Exlax in a lovely Godiva bottle.. :D ;D :-X
That is a wonderful Idea. Though make sure you leave the bottle far away from the porta potties you plan on using that weekend.
LMAO I love the exlax idea!!
We've had tiki torches stolen from our campsite. Every year we lose at least one or two. But so far *knocks on wood* that's all we've been looted.
Please PLEASE don't start leaving out goodies that have been spiked with ex-lax or other creative substances. That's food tampering, and you'll get in just as much trouble if you get caught doing it as the idjit will for stealing the drink/snack/whatever.
Seriously. In the eyes of the law it's illegal.
Quote
http://definitions.uslegal.com/b/booby-traps
"If a person sets up such a trap to protect his/her property, he/she will be liable for any injury or death even to an unwanted intruder such as a burglar. It is illegal to set a booby trap on one's own property to prevent intruders."
Quote
http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/22.09.00.html
22.09. TAMPERING WITH CONSUMER PRODUCT. (a) In this section:
(1) "Consumer Product" means any product offered for sale to or for consumption by the public and includes "food" and "drugs" as those terms are defined in Section 431.002, Health and Safety Code.
(2) "Tamper" means to alter or add a foreign substance to a consumer product to make it probable that the consumer product will cause serious bodily injury.
(b) A person commits an offense if he knowingly or intentionally tampers with a consumer product knowing that the consumer product will be offered for sale to the public or as a gift to another.
(c) A person commits an offense if he knowingly or intentionally threatens to tamper with a consumer product with the intent to cause fear, to affect the sale of the consumer product, or to cause bodily injury to any person.
(d) An offense under Subsection (b) is a felony of the second degree unless a person suffers serious bodily injury, in which event it is a felony of the first degree. An offense under Subsection (c) is a felony of the third degree.
Tampering with food is a criminal act, please don't chance it no matter how justified (and satisfying) it may seem.
Just trying to look out for ya'll, I hate the thieving as much as anyone else, but that's
not a good way to combat it.
(b) A person commits an offense if he knowingly or intentionally tampers with a consumer product knowing that the consumer product will be offered for sale to the public or as a gift to another.
When someone steals, it is not considered a "gift," thus, this law does not pertain to us in this case. This law is referring to a scenario where someone were to ask me for a drink and I handed them the bottle, knowing it was poisoned; at that point I would be guilty. Besides, a laxitive isn't going to kill someone, so a judge is not going to turn that prank into a felony case.
What if I had a medical condition that warranted me taking a laxitive, and mixing it with alcohol was a good way to bypass the taste and also act as a mild laxitive ? A thief is not allowed to steal my medication, no matter what law he may attempt to quote. If a thief could prove the bottle belonged to me because it was in my cooler, I would countersue with theft of personal property and hinderance that prevented me from controlling my medical condition.
And if you had such a medical condition, that might be a valid defense.
Otherwise, you're treading in very shaky ground. People get brought up on criminal charges for this sort of thing all the time:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2034192/posts
http://www.redorbit.com/news/oddities/81600/student_in_hot_water_over_exlax_brownies/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/09/AR2007050901259.html
http://www.wral.com/news/news_briefs/story/4304609/
All I'm saying is that two wrongs don't make a right. Of course stealing is wrong! But so is poisoning. And before anyone points out that exlax is available OTC and isn't technically a poison...a) were you planning on spiking your bottle of whatever with no more than the recommended dose? b) it says on the packaging "Do not consume alcohol while taking Ex Lax"
Please be very careful of the possible consequences to yourself when contemplating an act that could potentially be viewed as assault under the law.
***Please note that I am not an attorney, nor do I play one on TV***
In other countries, they'd just cut off his hands. We should petition our congressmen. This reminds me of homeowners getting sued because a criminal got hurt while breaking in. Tasers are legal, guess I'll have to carry one at camp? Put an alarm on my cooler to alert the masses...but then, if the thief had a heart attack from the noise shock, would it be a felony murder charge? ???
Sonata, thanks for the information. I was not aware of the law in this instance. We all hate the theives, and yes would like to see one suffering from a box of Ex-lax or worse, but your right about two wrongs don't make a right and staying our own butts out of trouble.
Quote from: Yrose on January 29, 2009, 12:56:32 PM
Sonata, thanks for the information. I was not aware of the law in this instance. We all hate the theives, and yes would like to see one suffering from a box of Ex-lax or worse, but your right about two wrongs don't make a right and staying our own butts out of trouble.
Thanks :)
Quote from: Messyn McCleavage on January 29, 2009, 12:24:17 PM
In other countries, they'd just cut off his hands. We should petition our congressmen. This reminds me of homeowners getting sued because a criminal got hurt while breaking in. Tasers are legal, guess I'll have to carry one at camp? Put an alarm on my cooler to alert the masses...but then, if the thief had a heart attack from the noise shock, would it be a felony murder charge? ???
Messyn, please don't misunderstand. I'm
not by any means defending the right of the thieves to steal. All I'm trying to do is prevent some sort of 'Local Teen Poisoned by Ren Faire Campers' media/legal issue
for us. I totally agree that the idea of righteous vengeance for theft and other ugly behaviors is extremely satisfying, but the law takes a dim view of vigilante justice.
On the other hand it is legal to use deadly force in Texas to defend your property from a thief in the night. (No happy smilies on this one.)
I knew I liked Texas!! :-*
I love the Castle Doctrine! Truly a fair minded law. Mess with my stuff and get dead for it! I wish I'd caught the foul being that lifted my radar detector last season! "On like Donkey Kong" wouldn't have even come close to the description!!
Quote from: Zaubon on January 29, 2009, 01:56:26 PM
On the other hand it is legal to use deadly force in Texas to defend your property from a thief in the night. (No happy smilies on this one.)
I think it also applies during the daytime and includes killing an attempted carjacker...
If property or self are in imminent danger, it is legal to use whatever force is necessary to end such danger. This includes deadly force when(here comes the gray area) all other attempts to end threat are exhausted.
That's my understanding of it at least, told to me by a rather distasteful worm of a lawyer. Wrong I could be....maybe I'll pull it up and actually read the law as written....
Quote from: MacLaren on January 29, 2009, 02:35:40 PM
That's my understanding of it at least, told to me by a rather distasteful worm of a lawyer.
Do you mean there is some other kind of lawyer? (Ooh that was harsh of me but I do not apologize).
No apology needed. I've parted ways with 'em. I must say being in the same room with him was unpleasant. Friend of a friend, you know? He did seem to quite a bit about law, but the personality was...grating, to say the least.
Quote from: Messyn McCleavage on January 29, 2009, 12:24:17 PM
In other countries, they'd just cut off his hands. We should petition our congressmen. This reminds me of homeowners getting sued because a criminal got hurt while breaking in. Tasers are legal, guess I'll have to carry one at camp? Put an alarm on my cooler to alert the masses...but then, if the thief had a heart attack from the noise shock, would it be a felony murder charge? ???
Messyn, please don't misunderstand. I'm
not by any means defending the right of the thieves to steal. All I'm trying to do is prevent some sort of 'Local Teen Poisoned by Ren Faire Campers' media/legal issue
for us. I totally agree that the idea of righteous vengeance for theft and other ugly behaviors is extremely satisfying, but the law takes a dim view of vigilante justice.
[/quote]
I understand that you are only trying to advise, and I was not implying that we should become vigilantes, I merely stated how other countries handle the situation and hence do not have the problem that we do.
I doubt the media would get involved in something as trivial as Ex-Lax after what happened this year at playtrons camp: A 13-yr-old girl is still(?) missing and was last seen at drum jam, a young woman miscarried and is in jail for murder... Why is SHE in jail and not her "friend" who poisoned her loki? The BATF busted some guy(s) - was that on the news? I wish they WOULD report it, so thieves would think twice and consider themselves lucky that's ALL that happened to them, with all the weapons we have around.
Mayhaps if saline were used, it would at least taste bad? If they drank it anyway, they would simply have a clean colon. I've had to drink it before having a partial colonoscopy. Colon cleansing IS the newest health fad, afterall. ;)
Quote from: Messyn McCleavage on January 29, 2009, 11:05:02 AM
(b) A person commits an offense if he knowingly or intentionally tampers with a consumer product knowing that the consumer product will be offered for sale to the public or as a gift to another.
Tampering laws notwithstanding, Messyn McCleavage is right. Attempting to prosecute an offense of that type based on evidence that was stolen or obtained by other criminal means would most likely create a case that would be legally insufficient to sustain a conviction.
By this, I am not necessarily condoning that course of action.
But it would be bloody hilarious.
I am just curious, what is the problem with vigilante justice?
vigilante
Main Entry: vig·i·lan·te
Function: noun
Etymology: Spanish, watchman, guard, from vigilante vigilant, from Latin vigilant-, vigilans
Date: 1856
: a member of a volunteer committee organized to suppress and punish crime summarily (as when the processes of law are viewed as inadequate) ; broadly : a self-appointed doer of justice
— vig·i·lan·tism \- noun
Sounds like just what we need to me....
Bypasses due process.
And that happens every day in the courts and in government, so whats the problem?
Quote from: PyroMaster on February 24, 2009, 02:13:53 PM
Bypasses due process.
With all respect PyroMaster, due process is a govermental protection. The whole idea behind vigilante justice is that the goverment is left out of the mix thereby streamlining the process. "Justice delayed is justice denied" works both ways. Swift, sure and reasonable punishment would do more to reduce crime than our current judicial system could ever hope to achieve. Of course, I am old fashioned, I'd like to see the return of stocks & the pillory in the public square used for minor transgressions.
And I would like to see public hangings in the court house square, brought back but that will never happen. Would be nice, it wouldn't be so OVER crowded here at work.
I got this in my email the other day and thought it went along with the current course of conversation. Dunno if it's real or if the guy who wrote it is this months cover model for Internet Tough Guy Magazine, but it's pretty funny anyways. Enjoy!
Posted to Craig's List Personals:
To the Guy Who Mugged Me Downtown (Downtown, Savannah )
I was the white guy with the black Burrberry jacket that you
demanded I hand over shortly after you pulled the knife on me and my
girlfriend. You also asked for my girlfriend's purse and earrings. I
hope you somehow come across this message. I'd like to apologize.
I didn't expect you to **** your pants when I drew my pistol
after you took my jacket. Truth is, I was wearing the jacket for a
reason that evening, and it wasn't that cold outside. You see, my
girlfriend had just bought me that Kimber 1911 .45 ACP pistol for
Christmas, and we had just picked up a shoulder holster for it that
evening. Beautiful pistol, eh? It's a very intimidating weapon when
pointed at your head, isn't it?
I know it probably wasn't a great deal of fun walking back to
wherever you'd come from with that brown sludge flopping about in your
pants. I'm sure it was even worse since you also ended up leaving your
shoes, cell phone, and wallet with me. I couldn't have you calling up
any of your buddies to come help you try to mug us again. I took the
liberty of calling your mother, or "Momma" as you had her listed in your
cell, and explaining to her your situation. I also bought myself some
gas on your card. I gave your shoes to one of the homeless guys over by
Vinnie Van Go Go's, along with all of the cash in your wallet, then I
threw the wallet itself in a dumpster.
I called a bunch of phone sex numbers from your cell. They'll be
on your bill in case you'd like to know which ones. Alltel recently shut
down the line, and I've only had the phone for a little over a day now,
so I don't know what's going on with that. I hope they haven't
permanently cut off your service. I was about to make some threatening
phone calls to the DA's office with it. Oh well.
So, about your pants. I know that I was a little rough on you
when you did this whole attempted mugging thing, so I'd like to make it
up to you. I'm sure you've already washed your pants, so I'd like to
help you out. I'd like to reimburse you for the detergent you used on
the pants. What brand did you use, and was it liquid or powder? I'd also
like to apologize for not killing you and instead making you walk back
home humiliated. I'm hoping that you'll reconsider your choice of path
in life. Next time you might not be so lucky. If you read this message,
email me and we'll do lunch and laundry. Peace!
- Alex
That is hilarious! Doesn't sound real, but at least most of it should be.
Maelstrom, I started reading that blog before reading that top section explaining it wasn't yours, so I read the whole thing thinking it was you and loving every minute!! Too hilarious dude! I totally think it was wonderful what he did if it was true.
You know if we did cut off hands of everyone guilty of thief 99% of congress would be one handed.
I received that message via email a few days ago. I'm sure its a joke, but it would be really cool to have a girlfriend who would pony up to get you a Kimber .45 for Christmas. Those are a bit pricey. :)
Quote from: Sir Martin on February 26, 2009, 12:15:20 PM
I received that message via email a few days ago. I'm sure its a joke, but it would be really cool to have a girlfriend who would pony up to get you a Kimber .45 for Christmas. Those are a bit pricey. :)
No kidding, Kimbers start about $900.00 and go to $1500.00 depending!
I'll stick with my Colt, thank you. A Colt 45 with hollow points is a wonderous thing that is not to be triflled with.
Hollow Points - When You Care Enough To Send The Very Best
Quote from: KeeperoftheBar on February 26, 2009, 03:04:10 PM
I'll stick with my Colt, thank you. A Colt 45 with hollow points is a wonderous thing that is not to be triflled with.
God made men and women; Sam Colt made 'em equal!
I have to say my fav is a Beretta 9MM and for a good small carry a Bersa 380.
Quote from: KeeperoftheBar on February 25, 2009, 07:10:46 AM
Quote from: PyroMaster on February 24, 2009, 02:13:53 PM
Bypasses due process.
With all respect PyroMaster, due process is a govermental protection. The whole idea behind vigilante justice is that the goverment is left out of the mix thereby streamlining the process. "Justice delayed is justice denied" works both ways. Swift, sure and reasonable punishment would do more to reduce crime than our current judicial system could ever hope to achieve. Of course, I am old fashioned, I'd like to see the return of stocks & the pillory in the public square used for minor transgressions.
I have a pretty good grip on due process ;) ... The question was "what is the problem with...". Bypassing due process is a problem in my opinion since there are no checks or balances to prevent abuse. And let's not confuse personal protection with vigilantism.
Oh, by the way,
.40cal or
HN Five-seveN FTW!
-M
So, does all this indicate the overwhelming presence of fire arms in TRF camping this season... because I probably won't be there with my daughter if it does?!?
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on February 26, 2009, 08:50:34 PM
So, does all this indicate the overwhelming presence of fire arms in TRF camping this season... because I probably won't be there with my daughter if it does?!?
They do not allow firearms in the campgrounds, it's in the hand out they give. Besides you would still have to be licensed to carry it.
Of course there are fire arms.... didn't you guys see that fire troupe a couple of seasons ago?
Now those are the kind of fire arms I don't mind being around!!! LOL
I am soooo ready to see some fire play!!! Nothing like watching spinners burn the beat during a tight rhythm! I'll be bringing all my drums, but I'd rather play a private circle than the main, I think... 8)
Leave this thread alone and look what happens to it. Did someone say firearm?
Glock 31 .357 Sig with Trijicon orange back, green front sights and an Insight Techonology tac light on it anyday of the week.
Concealment would be a Sig P232.
Oh well... it almost got back to a discussion of the fire, itself... :-\
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on February 27, 2009, 10:56:16 AM
Oh well... it almost got back to a discussion of the fire, itself... :-\
Yawn. That horse had been thoroughly beaten, skinned, quartered, cooked, and eaten by now.
HERE, HERE!!!!
And yet the thread still exists... LOL Bit stringy, perhaps, but still garnering interest.
I know you're very fond of your firearms, though, Chris! Do I get one also if I move down there? ;D
It would be nice to see a thread about fun TRF camping topics!!!
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on February 27, 2009, 11:21:55 AM
And yet the thread still exists... LOL Bit stringy, perhaps, but still garnering interest.
I know you're very fond of your firearms, though, Chris! Do I get one also if I move down there? ;D
It would be nice to see a thread about fun TRF camping topics!!!
Hmmmm. How about some McLotofus jam sessions.
Now we're talkin'!!! I'll be bringing three small/medium djembes, plus a whole basket of various percussion instruments and a didge... and I know there's at least one fire pit there most weekends!
Anyone else?!?
Quote from: Chris B on February 27, 2009, 11:55:26 AM
Quote from: Rani Zemirah on February 27, 2009, 11:21:55 AM
And yet the thread still exists... LOL Bit stringy, perhaps, but still garnering interest.
I know you're very fond of your firearms, though, Chris! Do I get one also if I move down there? ;D
It would be nice to see a thread about fun TRF camping topics!!!
Hmmmm. How about some McLotofus jam sessions.
Interesting idea ... I will not mind listening to the beat or even dancing on it.
That's it, someone take Rani's keyboard away!!!
Can't we kill this thread already?!?!?!?
(falls out of chair while laughing and blowing massive raspberry at Blue!)
OW!!!
Only if we start the new, fun thread!!! LOL
Quote from: blue66669 on February 27, 2009, 12:52:39 PM
That's it, someone take Rani's keyboard away!!!
Can't we kill this thread already?!?!?!?
You know there is only one way to kill a zombie, put salt on its tail. opps did I get me mythos confused?
LONG LIVE THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
Hmmm.... Kimber's nice, if a bit pricey.
Glock's pretty good... for a disposable plastic gun.
I prefer pistols over revolvers, but dang I want a Taurus Judge.
It's a five-shot revolver that fires both .45 long and .410 shells.
::drool::
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on February 28, 2009, 07:44:49 AM
Hmmm.... Kimber's nice, if a bit pricey.
Glock's pretty good... for a disposable plastic gun.
I prefer pistols over revolvers, but dang I want a Taurus Judge.
It's a five-shot revolver that fires both .45 long and .410 shells.
::drool::
Or you could go for that S&W revolver that fires .500 cal.
That .50 S&W must recoil something terrible. One I knew an idiot who put checkered grips on his .44 Mag. Tore the palms of his hands something terrible. He then changed the grips back to the plain ones. I tried to warn him, but would he listen? No.......
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on February 28, 2009, 07:44:49 AM
Glock's pretty good... for a disposable plastic gun.
Disposable plastic gun my arse. Talk to me again when you've kicked in a door or two for a living..... :P
Quote from: Chris B on March 02, 2009, 08:44:57 AM
Quote from: Lord Dragonspyre on February 28, 2009, 07:44:49 AM
Glock's pretty good... for a disposable plastic gun.
Disposable plastic gun my arse. Talk to me again when you've kicked in a door or two for a living..... :P
Just kidding about the Glock though. It's pretty good, and easy to maintain. Great for beginners and a good standby for the advanced crowd.
I'd still take a Kimber, Colt, or Sig over a Glock any day of the week.
Not that I'm a major "gun nut", but....
Colt Python .357, 4" barrell (Your choice of ammo)
Short, sweet and to the point.
If it jams, just pull the trigger again and, let's face it, if you can't down whatever it is you're shooting at with 6 of those monsters, then the extras you get out of your Glock or Sig probably aren't going to make that much difference.
If you want to get even more to the point, a simple Mossberg 500 will solve most of your problems. Hell, just racking a shell in a dark house will send 99.9% of your "home invaders" scurrying out the nearest door or window.
You know when someone has more money than sense. At the local indoor range someone next to me was shooting a 500 S&W Magnum with a laser sight at 10 feet they missed the entire target with ever shot. They would have been better throwing the revolver than trying to shot it.
It was like the line from the orginal Dawn of the Dead
Peter: Ain't it a crime.
Stephen: What?
Peter: The only person who could miss with this gun is the sucker with the bread to buy it.
Can we bring this back to things Ren related. I've listened to my gun is better than your gun urinating contests for forty years. There are lots of places I can go if I want to hear more.
Quote from: SirRichardBear on March 02, 2009, 03:58:47 PM
At the local indoor range someone next to me was shooting a 500 S&W Magnum with a laser sight at 10 feet they missed the entire target with ever shot.
About the only thing a laser pointer would do for me is to advertise just how shaky my aim has gotten.
Used to drive herself from the range when I'd unlimber the Dan Wesson 44 mag. She really likes her Taurus .357. Some of the baby Kimbers are very nice for concealed. I've got a couple of Glocks as well as Kimbers. If you want to trick out your Glocks, I like the Glockmeister in Phoenix. Does wonders for the trigger pull.
You would perfer my basket broadsword is better than your skinny rapier? :D
Personally I'm hoping with the changes they put in place last season we've turned the corner on problems with the community fire.
Quote from: Zaubon on March 02, 2009, 04:10:19 PM
Can we bring this back to things Ren related. I've listened to my gun is better than your gun urinating contests for forty years. There are lots of places I can go if I want to hear more.
DITTO!