Well, at least I think it's a matter of ethics ... or maybe just fairness.
I take a lot of photos at faire, especially of friends. One friend loved a photo I took of her and her boyfriend kissing, with faces hidden by her hat. She asked if she could have a copy of it to frame and use on MySpace. No problem.
She entered it in a photo contest and won first prize in the category- a bunch of faire tickets and two collectable mugs. It's under her name of course, including the Web site featuring all the winners.
I'm rather upset, and while I know she needs the free tickets for faire this year, I'm not sure how much I should push her for the mugs. (My entry in to faire is already covered.) I also don't know if I should contact the photo judges, partly because that would hurt my friend. And honestly, it wasn't the greatest photo I've ever taken, it wasn't even one of the better photos from the faire trip (which is why I'm so surprised it won).
Any thoughts?
Well I assume the photo contest said that the submitter had to have shot the photograph and if that was the case she doesn't have ethics.
I would show the photo contest people the original file (if possible) and tell them that she lied about being the photographer. Or you could extort the prize she won, or some of it, from her.
Regards,
CB
Thanks.
It doesn't say point-blank in the rules that submitter had to be the photographer. That me be remedied in the next contest! However, the rules did say that by entering you are surrending the photo to becom the property of the faire. And that winners may be asked to provide original negatives or transparencies.
That is what upsets me the most. My photo technically is no longer mine.
It IS technically yours since your friend had no right to give ownership of something she didn't own in the first place.
You can email the contest people if you like.
Regards,
CB
Personally, I think it depends on how far you want to push it. You still own the photo in that you have the negatives/ original. I would certainly let your friend know that what she did was wrong and unethical. But, if you value the friendship, I wouldn't contact the faire b/c that will cause no end of troubles for the friendship and my end it all together. The least she could do is give you the mugs since you did take the photo. But be sure to tell her how you feel. She may have assumed that you wouldn't mind.
Good luck!
I think that telling her how you feel is the best bet, despite the fact that you own the photograph, she perhaps didn't intend to essentially steal from you, although she certainly showed bad judgement (at the least, if she's truly ignorant that it indeed was stealing).
If I had unintentionally done something to hurt someone, as she has, I would certainly have come to you and given YOU the winnings and she still may do that given the opportunity. If she's made aware that what she did was wrong and doesn't offer to make amends somehow on her own, I would chalk it up to a sad experience and cross her off of my list of friends.
The fact that she entered the photo contest without consulting you and didn't offer you at least half the winnings if not all tells me she's no friend in the first place! I would definitely contact the contest coordinators and explain the situation. They may wish to use the photo in ways you don't agree with and of course they would be giving credit (unknowingly) to someone else. It may be a matter of rules for the contest as well. Then I would explain to her just how hurt and disappointed you are. It was a breech of ethics, morals, and your friendship. It's not a matter of how good the photo is, it's a matter of the way she treated you. Good luck.
By the way, how did you find out?
I would first speak to the friend to let her know that you are upset and why. If she blows it off as no big deal I would then contact the photo judges and let them know that as the photographer you do not wish to relinquish your rights to the photo. What the judges decide to do once notified that you took the picture is up to them.
Short version she owes you the mugs.
Is it worth telling the faire and having the both of you upset at each other when you see one another at faire? that's up yo you. I wouldn't give her the originals though. They can't do much with a myspace pic.
I'm not a photographer, but I must say she surely owes you the mugs, no doubt. But how far you want to go is up to you. If you push it, you risk loosing the friend. But if you don't you'll always know in the back of your mind, what she did that hurt you. So you definitely need to sit down and explain how YOU feel about it. Keep pressing the fact that it's how YOU feel, and she can't fault you for your feelings.
I agree with Sealion on this one.
How close of a friend was this person? She should have asked you BEFORE she entered that photo in a contest, if it would be ok with you.
I am first and foremost a visual artist, but I have also sold some of my photography. It never ceases to amaze me that most people think it's ok to steal art/photography.
Once, I was asked to take 35mm photos of a building, for the organization that owned that building. They bought the film and I took the photos with my own camera. Even though I did the work, using my equipment, they insisted that all of it belonged to them, because they bought the film. Well, without someone USING said film, it would still be blank film. I got nothing, not even a credit line.
Live and learn.
I have friends and family that are professional photographers. They are VERY gaurded of their work. All pictures, whether digital or print, have their copyright on them. Nothing leaves them without it. Digital media is so easy to steal so the artist must take speacial care. I am even probably less careful than I should be!
Well... I personally think it's pretty low for anyone to do something like this. A real friend would of said something first. I'd be pissed too.
Be careful on opening a can of worms with that Faire. It could backfire. They could get upset at you for pushing the issue then turn around and tell you to keep off their property.
I'd ask for the mugs. If she don't give them to you... cut the cord on being her friend.
Not to pick a scab... but depending on the Faire, they might have a stipulation on photo ownership on the ticket stub so it may technically not be yours to begin with. **Please don't high-jack this topic with the photo ownership debate, take that topic to one of the several areas where it's been debated already.**
Put a watermark on your photo people. It's that simple. This was one of the first things they pounded into our heads in graphics school. If your going to put a photo online without it.... or give a photo to someone else without it... your freely opening yourself up to concerns such as these. Hell... look at your area photo studios. Most of them will have their text in the bottom corner of your prints when you buy them. I have not seen any in my city that don't do that. They do it for a reason... to keep their photos theirs.
Never give the original.
Call the Faire, tell them you understand your photo won the contest, and you need to give them your address for the prize. Let them deal with "friend".
Thanks so much ...
So how does one put a water mark on photos? I do have a few photo editing programs, but I'm mainly self-taught (my area of expertise is writing). I'm somewhat aware of general copyright laws, which is why until now I haven't been concerned. But then again unutil recently I don't think my photos were worth stealing.
I found out about this whole thing when the photos went up on the faire's Web site. About then, my friend (who I've known since junior high school) called me to say how excited she was because she had won tickets to faire, with the photo. Last two years I've given her extra tickets I had, when she said she couldn't otherwise attend.
I'm definitely going to talk to her. I've calmed down enough that I can do so thoughtfully. And I've decided that even if it means losing a friend, I want part of the prize. Harsh as that may sound.
I don't think I'll go to the faire, if only because it very well may backfire. I don't want to be barred from faire, or barred from future photo contests for that matter. Not that I'd think this faire would do such ... but I know one faire that might.
It's not harsh at all - why should she profit from stealing?
I'm with Taffy on this one...Why on earth should YOU not go to Faire because someone else did something wrong? Nonsense. It's not harsh to protect yourself from thieves, even if they seem to be friends, or have been in the past. The only reason you should give her any leeway is if she honestly didn't know that what she did was wrong (in which case she's pretty naive), then she should be told it was wrong and she should step up and offer you the winnings because that's would be doing the right thing.
**I don't think I'll go to the faire...** Go with that thought. You thought it for a reason. *Let Go Luke... Trust Your Feeling.*
If you might want to drop your friend a hint and are somewhat on edge on how to do it... send her a link to this topic. At least that way... she can see / read points of view that others have and can maybe start to see the light. It kind of takes any one sidedness out of it. Your friend would also be able to see how you are feeling over the matter. If it is a real friend that cares, she will see how it is effecting you and make it right. If it is a friend that don't care... she'll do nothing. It'll take some confrontation aspects away and let her know how you feel. If you don't hear back from her after linking her to this page... let the friendship fade away knowing that you made the right steps and took the effort 'if you chose to end the friendship that is'.
*Ex: ... Hey friend, I seen a topic about faire photos and the contest you entered, I think you should read it.*
Watermarks... depends on the phodo program you use. Photoshop 'and maybe others?'... have a batch type action that'll put it on.
What do you use ?
majikboxman,
Maybe you can tell me how to print watermarks on 35mm negatives and prints?
The incident I was talking about took place way back before digital or even the internet existed, hard as that may be to believe now. I always printed my name on the back of the prints, in ink. I still do that.
I also would not give them the negatives, but they kept badgering and hounding me about it. I didn't think it was worth fighting over. Then, when the book came out and my photo was in it, I asked them where they got that photo? They told me it was one of the photos that belonged to the museum. I knew it was mine, but I no longer had the negatives to prove it.
Years later, I asked the new director for the negatives. He said he looked in the backroom, where they were supposed to be stored, but they *gasp* had disappeared! So I knew for sure those were mine, published in the book.
Small town politics...
I have nothing to do with them anymore.
Maybe a good compromise would be asking the faire to put your name on the photo as well . . . something like "photographer: Blushing; photo submitted by ______"
Lady L,
You'd have to scan them into you computer then put the mark on in your photo software.
I've read most of the responses to your original post...
The main thing to remember here is the fact that you own the image(s) period. US copyright law is very clear on this point. You have copyright protection from the moment you create the image (when you press the shutter button).
If you gave your "friend" permission to use the image on their myspace page, well, that's pretty much all you did. If that person submitted the image to a contest, they broke your agreement of use and can be considered theft. If the contest rules stated that the image becomes the property of the fair etc. Well, your friend is now guilty of theft from two separate parites (the faire and you). Stealing the intellectual property of another person or company holds some steep penalties. Like 5 years in prison and several hundred thousand dollars in fines. Plus any legal fee's the copyright owner has incurred if the work has been submitted/registered to the copyright office. It's basically the same rules that apply to copying your favorite movie or CD of your favorite music group. It's also possible for the faire to go after the person submitting the photo. For example, what if the faire has already used the picture for next years program books or advertising. Who do you think they will go after to recover the costs or reprinting everything? The person who submitted the photo...
I would let your friend know what they have done is not right, not legal and they should make it right immediately. Don't ask for a mug. It means nothing and has no value anyway. Your friend should contact the faire and let them know that the image he/she submitted is the not theirs and they have no legal right to use it. And the true copyright owner is aware of the illegal use of the image and has not approved of it's use in this capacity.
Your friend and the faire can figure out what to do from there. Be it giving you credit for the shot and awarding you fairly or possibly finding another way to compensate you.
You should also register your work with the copyright office. It's very cheap insurance in the event that your work is ever stolen or used in some way against your wishes.
http://www.copyright.gov/
I'm not a lawyer and have no legal background. And it's not a good idea to take legal advise from anyone on a internet forum. But, you should at least check into what can happen if you don't take care of this right now. Call a copyright lawyer if you are not sure.
Jon.
majikboxman ... I use for Adobe Photoshop 7.0 and Bullseye.
Jon ... thanks for the reply and the link. I've read up a lot on copyright - way back when I first starting creating things be it written or artistic (including photos).
I value everyone's opinion ... and since something like this never happened to me before, I want to hear what other's thought - if only to make sure I wasn't overreacting or some thing.
Ouch! I'm sorry that happened to you! To quote Max Headroom "With friends like that, who needs enemas?" >:(
You should take it up with her. Maybe ask how she'd feel if you took a short story she wrote, submitted it to a journal under your name and won a prize with it. No mention of her anywhere, what would she feel like and want to do?
The contest rules really should state that the photos have to be submitted by original photographer. That is probably what the faire intended. They should have been more thorough in their wording.
Your friend should come clean with the faire herself, to ask them to put your name in the credits as the photographer.
She may say "It's just a picture!" but just because things are digital doesn't make it right to rip them off. And "fair use" doesn't apply to claiming credit (implied though it may be) as the photographer. Neither does her "need" for free entry in any way justify this. There are lots of people who could certainly use some free tickets to faire, particularly now. It's cheating against the other shooters that were entering fair & square their own work in the contest.
Hopefully she'll "get it". If she just doesn't get it, it's time to cut your losses. Friends don't steal.
Watermarking: If you're using Photoshop 7, you should be able to add a text layer above the background layer (your picture) and in that text layer, choose a font/size/color/etc.. and type "(C) Blushing" and put it wherever in the picture you want, e.g. lower right. Then do a "Flatten Image" and export it as a JPG. You can also probably work up a Photoshop Action do it automatically at the touch of a Function key.
Also if you're shooting digital see if your photo editting program allows you to put "Creator" "Address" "Website" type info into the IPTC data in the photo. [Beware of "save for web" in earlier, prior to Photoshop CS4 versions of photoshop. The "Save for Web" will strip out the EXIF and IPTC data from the photo.]
Neither of the options above are foolproof. People with evil intent can bypass both of them rather easily, however by putting your "brand" ;) on the photo, you're showing your intent to maintain "authorship".
Loosing the EXIF and IPTC data might not be a big deal. I personally rather not share any camerita setting with anyone. Not to say that my 'or yours or the other guys for that matter' settings are the best 'or even right', but the point being is that... ... ...
You, the photographer, may have taken allot of time and trys / error effort in trying to get those settings. Why are you going to give that info up freely ? Really. When you go to the photo studio/lab to pic up your prints after having your X-mas family pics taken, ask them for a digital disk. Once you get your disk home, look at it for the EXIF data. It won't be there. There's no way they will share that info with you. EXIF data should be treated like nuclear secrets. People take a long time to dial that info in, to freely give it up is a HUGE mistake.
Best failsafe way to put your images online without having some meathead take them ?... ?... ?... Make & upload them as a flash photoshow. Then it's a flash file and not a single document.
Blushing... ... ...
I wouldn't wait too long before doing whatever cause of action you are planning to do. Just remember, while your waitng, things could moving forward with your photo in ways you don't realize.
my friend (who I've known since junior high school)
Your statement above says a lot to me. Obviously, you've known each other a long time and have kept the friendship up.
My question to you is, "Is it worth ending a friendship over a couple of mugs?"
Yes, I realize that what she did is wrong. Since she called you so excited to tell you that the picture won, she must not have thought that she did anything bad. She screwed up big time, but did you ever make a mistake? Everyone has, some mistakes are more major than others.
So I would ask myself if she has been a good friend to you over the years, and why the friendship has lasted as long as it did. If she has done hurtful things to you in the past, then the next question would be why do you want to keep on being friends with her. If you have enough good reasons, and you want to continue to be friends with her, take the high road and forgive her. Sure, speak to her nicely and explain how you feel and tell her that if it wasn't that she was your friend, you would view it as stealing your work. And then ask her to please not do anything like that again.
It's all going to depend on how much you value her friendship and if you want to keep it over what could possibly be a very innocent mistake.
Quote from: Jon Foster on March 14, 2009, 12:19:25 PM
<snip for space>
I would let your friend know what they have done is not right, not legal and they should make it right immediately. Don't ask for a mug. It means nothing and has no value anyway. Your friend should contact the faire and let them know that the image he/she submitted is the not theirs and they have no legal right to use it. And the true copyright owner is aware of the illegal use of the image and has not approved of it's use in this capacity.
Your friend and the faire can figure out what to do from there. Be it giving you credit for the shot and awarding you fairly or possibly finding another way to compensate you.
<snip>
I agree with this. the mugs are trivial, It's credit for the photo that has real value, and that credit belongs to you.
If this were me, I would talk to my friend about this and talk to the faire as well to work out an agreement. I would personally agree to let the faire keep the photo listed as first place winner and use as they like as per the entry rules on the conditions that they change the name credit was given to. I would let my friend keep the tickets, (I'd likely have given them freely if I had been the one to enter the contest) but I would want to share the mugs. it sounded like there were a few, I'd want at least one of them, I don't need the other.
Quote from: Lady Renee Buchanan on March 16, 2009, 06:29:12 PM
my friend (who I've known since junior high school)
Your statement above says a lot to me. Obviously, you've known each other a long time and have kept the friendship up.
My question to you is, "Is it worth ending a friendship over a couple of mugs?"
Yes, I realize that what she did is wrong. Since she called you so excited to tell you that the picture won, she must not have thought that she did anything bad. She screwed up big time, but did you ever make a mistake? Everyone has, some mistakes are more major than others.
<snip>
This is also a very valid point, Is this really worth the friendship to you? Your friend hurt you, and you should talk to her about it, if you don't, you might start to harbor a grudge and that can ruin the friendship. But if shes a good friend otherwise and made a mistake, there's no reason to come down to hard on her with an iron will and demand the mugs. That is nothing but a lose/lose situation. Find or work out a way that you can both come out ahead.
Quote from: jcbanner on March 17, 2009, 01:49:55 AM
That is nothing but a lose/lose situation. Find or work out a way that you can both come out ahead.
Yay for leadership training, I think I just quoted a seminar! :P hope that line isn't copyright ;)
Stay away from the Faire office... it'll only be negative.
If you do plan on going to their office, find out their rules on photoing in their grounds first. If there is a photo stipulation in place, don't contact them.
Think of it this way... If this were a job, how would a situation between 2 co-workers having drama 'lack of better terms' issues be dealt with ? After dealt with... what are the end results ?
Now take that a step further... What business do you know of that is going to actually put up with 2 outside 'non-employees' parties making issues over a matter that is part of their business practice ?
/End my thoughts on the matter. Keep us infoed on what you did and the results. Interested in knowing the outcome.
Good Luck.
Here's the photo ...
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g164/Blushing_Biggins/SS851373.jpg)
Like I said, it really wasn't the best from that particular faire trip. But apparently it was good enough.
I won't be going to the faire office ... just not worth the potential for trouble there!
I talked to my friend, and she seemed stunned that I was upset over this. She says she'll give me the tickets she won't be using, but didn't say anything about the mugs. And I haven't talked to her since. But she did say I'd see her when I visited ... so we will see. Part of my reaction was things that had happened in the past, in some ways this was just icing on the cake, whuch is why I actually talked to her about it instead of lettign it slide. If the friendship ends because of this, I feel sure that it wasn't because of what I did/said ...
Good to hear you talked to her about it. It's a nice photo captures the romance theme.
I like the picture, too - the two lovers are very mysterious & I can see why the faire would be interested in it. Glad you talked to your friend about it, but it sounds like she didn't "get" why you'd be unhappy that your property had been stolen & she was rewarded for that theft.
Some friends are like that. I know I've had to lose a few over the decades.
Quote from: Blushing on March 22, 2009, 10:57:40 PM
Here's the photo ...
(http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g164/Blushing_Biggins/SS851373.jpg)
Cool shot. It tells a nice story.
Jon.