Anything about this kind of hat?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/AnakinsAngel/HatThing.jpg)
I know I've seen it before, but I can't remember where or what it's called. Also, has anyone ever made one, or know of anyone who's made one?
Is there any way to enlarge the image? I can't make out any kind of detail--all I can tell is "sort of brownish and round."
I think it looks a little like a phrygian cap, which is very unlikely considering the time and place.
This is all I could find. The first one is from the 16th century, while your picture is very clearly 15th, but it seems possibly similar.
http://www.gtj.org.uk/en/small/item/GTJ01788/
http://www.saint-denis.culture.fr/en/vignet_fich1.htm
And while not particulary helpful, this picture seems to be from the same period, and shows several of what may be similar hats.
(http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/mi03017c12a.jpg)
That's the best I've got - unless anyone has a decent imaging program. If I enlarge it it just gets blurrier.
The picture is "The Dance in the Garden" from Roman de la Rose.
I thought it was a Phrygian cap too at first, but the point on the top doesn't flop over like the Phrygian - also, it looks structured to me, while a Phrygian is just a soft fabric hat.
I know this hat has a name, and I believe it's an "eastern" type of hat. I know I've seen it before but I can't find any other images because I can't remember what it's called.
Well, when you said "Eastern," I started thinking about those traditional Mongolian hats that look like spires, and then I started thinking Byzantine. Anything here help?
http://www.rameset.com/hats-garb.htm
what about this site?
http://www.hatshapers.com/Hat%20Dictionary.htm
i was thinkin maybe afghan skullcap
i think that i saw that the painting was 12th or 13th french art is that correct?
I think it's something like the "Kalkha" hat only without the fur flaps. The spire also seems to be shorter and rounder than on the Kalkha.
I do believe it was a Persian style though.
I found some similar styles in various pictures - a man and a woman from Gothic Europe and a Byzantine man. I think it's most like the man in the top right, only with a larger point on top.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/AnakinsAngel/HatThing2.jpg)
It is a bit like the Afghan skull cap, only with a point. And I think it might be not so tight-fitting as the skull cap.
It's called The Carolle in the Garden from the folio of Roman de La Rose. I couldn't get a good close up but my guess is that you aren't seeing a hat at all. It looks like nothing more than probably a close fitted snood with the wire/ribbon edge that was popular during that time.
I didn't think it was a snood because the lady in pink is wearing a snood, and it's a very different shape from the hat I'm looking at. It also has the little point on the top. It's clearly a moderately structured hat; a bit like a rounded pillbox with a bump on top.
Here's a larger image; unfortunately, the watermark is exactly where we're trying to look!
(https://www.1st-art-gallery.com/thumbnail/102456/1/Knights-And-Ladies-Dancing-The-Carolle-In-The-Garden-Of-Love-$28from-A-Manuscript-Illustration-For-$5croman-De-La-Rose$5c$29-$28late-15th-Century$29.jpg)
I'm going to mess with it in Photoshop and see if I can't make out any better detail.
I'm just not seeing a hat. I could see a circlet with a rounded braid atop her head or a snood but not a hat.
Something like this: http://www.wga.hu/art/g/gossaert/1/marymagd.jpg
Or kinda like this:
http://www.wga.hu/art/c/carpacci/5/01woman.jpg
I don't think it's her hair, because her hair is clearly down. There is nothing to indicate that some of it might be pulled up - no upward lines or anything. Also, in keeping with the fashion of the time, it's likely that her hair is plucked out almost to her ears, so she wouldn't have that much hair to pull up unless she used all of it, and her hair is down. She just couldn't physically get a braid that size with any hair she might not have down. And again, I think all her hair is down.
Also, in other portraiture, I've mostly seen the circlet worn around the forehead, not around the crown of the head. I'm sure it's happened, but I don't think it's particularly attractive anyway.
I've definitely seen this type of hat before, I just would like more information on it and ideas on how to make it. I've never made a hat before, I have no idea how to do it. I'm looking at making the pink dress - for some reason I'm completely in love with it - and I think that little cap would go well with it.
Quote from: PrincessSara on March 30, 2009, 02:09:10 PM
I don't think it's her hair, because her hair is clearly down. There is nothing to indicate that some of it might be pulled up - no upward lines or anything.
I've done it with my hair before. You do a circle french braid at the top of the scalp and leave the rest of the hair down.
Also, in keeping with the fashion of the time, it's likely that her hair is plucked out almost to her ears, so she wouldn't have that much hair to pull up unless she used all of it, and her hair is down.
Not true. That was the fashion, in parts of Germany, about 40 years earlier.
She just couldn't physically get a braid that size with any hair she might not have down. And again, I think all her hair is down.
Again, I've done it. Also, they tend to over emphasis things in paintings, particularly in a miniature this small. The actual size is about the size of your average book. You can see the full screen shot at the British Image Library.
Also, in other portraiture, I've mostly seen the circlet worn around the forehead, not around the crown of the head. I'm sure it's happened, but I don't think it's particularly attractive anyway.
I see it at her hairline? That's where it normally is placed in most Italian portraiture. Check out the 1490's - 1510 hairstyles on realm of venus.
I've definitely seen this type of hat before, I just would like more information on it and ideas on how to make it. I've never made a hat before, I have no idea how to do it. I'm looking at making the pink dress - for some reason I'm completely in love with it - and I think that little cap would go well with it.
Again, I don't see a hat. I see what might be braids and a circlet.
This is a very very small illumination in reality so everyone will see something different. It is not meant to be 100% accurate but more of a sketch. Some of the things you might be seeing might be nothing more than artistic mistakes. The fact that the top of the head is the same color as the loose hair would indicate to me that she doesn't have a hat on.
False hair was VERY popular in this period. One of my favorite depictions shows a lady wearing red hair in her hat but clearly is a blonde. It's funny as can be.
Quote from: isabelladangelo on March 30, 2009, 07:19:11 PM
Also, in keeping with the fashion of the time, it's likely that her hair is plucked out almost to her ears, so she wouldn't have that much hair to pull up unless she used all of it, and her hair is down.
Not true. That was the fashion, in parts of Germany, about 40 years earlier.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v59/AnakinsAngel/MadonnaandChildwithSaintsCatherineC.jpg)
Virgin and Child with Saints, 1490.
Also, the colour of the hat is noticeably redder than the hair.
Anyway, it really looks like a hat to me in shape, colour, etc. Especially with the point on top. And since this isn't an Italian painting, I'm not really looking to do Italian styles. I'm doing French/Flemish.
OK, so I've given it my best shot & I think it's a snood-like thingie. I made a post on my website (http://www.myfairelady.com/?page_id=134) to explain in better detail. HTH!
Sara, having agonized over similar details in online images myself (anyone remember my "partlet or necklace?" thread about Promenade?), I would say hunt around until you can find a good reproduction in a book. Chances are the details will be *much* clearer in print. I finally found detailed color repros of Promenade in that book I got from France via interlibrary loan--and I was able to take Milord's magnifying glass for studying coins to get an even closer look at some of the details. It did take a little effort, though, to find a trail that would lead me to a book with those pictures... since *this* began life as a book, it will probably be easier for you!
This period is a little frustrating, because they hadn't yet developed the idea (or the skills) for photographic accuracy, so it's really hard sometimes to tell what they were seeing/thinking/doing, even if you *do* manage to get a good image to work from. And then you just sort of have to decide what seems most likely, mixed with what's the most practical way to re-create it.
I'm no help here I just wanted to pipe in that it looks like a little acorn hat with a veil! I can picture fairies and elves wearing it. That is all, sorry to disturb...