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So I just saw that next weeks match up on Spike's Deadliset Warrior is Knight vs Pirate.

For those of you who don't know this show pits warriors against each other and through science determines who would win in a fight to the death. Who do you think will win??

My vote is pirate for one simple reason.  Gunpowder. 

It is unfortunate as it appears the knight in which they have chosen is of pre-gunpowder era (http://i40.tinypic.com/2lnvf43.jpg)

I would think to be "Fair" it would have to be an up close and personal fight with blades. If they allow a pirate the gunpowder option to a pre-gunpowder knight, then hell, you might as well fight the Black Knight torso of Monte Python.

They could at least use a 16th century Hospitaller or Teutonic Brother! >:(


Brother William, don't let them forget that the Knights of Malta/St John/Hospitaller took a maritime role to combat piracy! ;D

Quote from: Warrior_Monk on April 22, 2009, 09:23:47 AM
I would think to be "Fair" it would have to be an up close and personal fight with blades. If they allow a pirate the gunpowder option to a pre-gunpowder knight, then hell, you might as well fight the Black Knight torso of Monte Python. 

ROFL!

Quote from: Warrior_Monk on April 22, 2009, 09:23:47 AM
They could at least use a 16th century Hospitaller or Teutonic Brother! >:(

Absolutely

Quote from: Warrior_Monk on April 22, 2009, 09:23:47 AM
Brother William, don't let them forget that the Knights of Malta/St John/Hospitaller took a maritime role to combat piracy! ;D

And not only were they very successful in combating piracy.  The pirates were also dealing with extremely well trained disciplined soldiers willing to die (martyrdom) in the name of their beliefs.

I am shocked that this hasn't turned into a debate between the Knights and Pirates. I was sure that this would turn into a heated debate.

Really?  I would think that there would be no discussion at all......everyone is well aware that if a Knight were half the man he was, than he would still be twice the man a pirate could hope to be!  :P ;D ;)

Personally, I think the whole concept is rather retarded.  It all boils down to the individual warrior and anyone would be foolish to think any full-time soldier of any period wouldn't adapt to the tactics and weapons of the time.  It really is a moot point all together.

Having been an Infantryman for 20 years, I would counter, that this line of thinking has sparked many a conversation to pass the time away in remote locations of the world. It makes folks open the books to research the details of their favorites. I would rather watch this, that alot of the other BS reality shows that they put out now.

I'd be interested in your take on the History Channel's Warriors as well..

Don't get me wrong.  I watch a lot of these programs myself, and Military History is my favorite topic of discussion.  I think Hollywood overly simplifies their looks at these various cultures and tactics in warfare.  The discussion of the various tactics is fascinating, but using "science" to dictate an ultimate victor is what I find retarded.

I actually have higher end historically accurate full sets of weapons and armor from many of the cultures in question (Two 5th Century Greek Sets, 1st Century Roman, 10th Century Viking, 12th Century Templar, 16th Century Samurai).  Putting these warriors toe to toe and placing restrictions on them is a bit much. 

Anyone who seriously studies martial arts, tactics, or warfare or has worked in any field related to these areas knows that there are no hard and fast rules (and I am not implying anyone here doesn't know this).  You do what it takes to get the job done, accomplish your mission and go home at the end of the day.   Any of these soldiers would have studied up on the other tactics and cultures they would encounter in their respective periods and would have developed ways to overcome it.

For instance, the Samurai started adding ridges to their Do (breast plates) to help deflect musket fire and archeological evidence shows that several effectively had done just that.  Gunpowder does add an advantage, but even today, the two things that give you a tactical advantage with a firearm are (1) Time and (2) Distance.  Take away either, and your advantage tips to the one wielding a sword.  On the flip side, I am quite sure a pirate would have learned to effectively use an edged weapon and employed other weapons to counteract plate.  Bottom line, it would have always come back to the least common demoninator, the individual warrior.  Who was better trained, who wanted it more.....and you cannot take out blind luck or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Edit:  Case in point.  Just watched it on Spike's website.  Just one example.  The "Ninja To" never existed.  The modern concept that ninja carried a straight sword is pure myth.  So change this one element and put the Katana in the ninjas hand instead.  The katana is more than capable of penetrating a Corinthian helmet.  The Kisaki would also have the ability to thrust through a bronze cuirass.  So the concept of the Spartan being impenetrable because of armor isn't necessarily correct.  Even the pyramidal butt end of the spartan spear (sauroter) was able to penetrate the cuirass as seen by square holes in cuirasses found.  I am just saying the information isn't always accurate on these shows.

Quote from: Chris B on April 23, 2009, 12:19:50 PM
Who was better trained, who wanted it more.....and you cannot take out blind luck or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This one can't deny, and luck....wasn't luck described as the ability to exploit the enemy's mistakes.....lol!

Quote from: Chris B on April 23, 2009, 12:19:50 PM
I actually have higher end historically accurate full sets of weapons and armor from many of the cultures in question (Two 5th Century Greek Sets, 1st Century Roman, 10th Century Viking, 12th Century Templar, 16th Century Samurai). 

There are many in these threads who would welcome the knowledge of where you acquired many of these items, to include myself!

Ask away brother.  That's why I am here.  I have no qualms helping anyone with information I have acquired over the years on the sets I own.

I will say it is still interesting to see the visuals presented in these shows at least.

Chausses, where did you get yours, and are they of the lace up variety?
Halberk, yours: long sleeves with the mufflers?
Coif independent or part of the shirt?

What are your sources to acquire these items?

At 6'6", I have the devil of a time finding items that fit, especially in the helm area.

My maille is 8mm mild steel, flat ring, wedge riveted.  The coif is independent of the hauberk and the hauberk is a long sleeve and down to mid thigh.  The chauses are solid around the thigh and calves and attach to a belt around the waste.  The only thing I am still having trouble finding like I really want are the mittens. 

I bought mine semi-custom through Armadillo Armorery and then ultimately from their source in India (Al Hamdt - sp?).  It took two years to finally get it.  There are still problems I see with it, but it is as good as anyone really is going to get without paying thousands to get a custom set that fits like a glove and that is tailored.  The contact for them is Suhel Subhani (alhamddtrpost@yahoo.com).  Tell him Chris Boatcallie referred you if you contact him.  I will warn that you would have to be patient and VERY clear as to exactly what you want.  It took them two tries to get it right on my set, but on a positive, I ended up with two sets of chausses, two coifs, and a hauberk for the price of one set because of the mistakes.

Your helm looks like a Valentine to me, but it is hard to see in the thumbnail.  I actually like those helms alot and bought one for my son.  My personal helmet is an Albion.  It is huge though. 

Here are a few pics of that set.  Since these early pics, I have hence, closed up the arms and put lacing around the wrists to close it.  I have also received the better chauses.

(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s117/cboat97/005.jpg)

(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s117/cboat97/004.jpg)

Quote from: Chris B on April 23, 2009, 01:01:09 PM
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s117/cboat97/005.jpg)

Always a favorite shot of mine.  ;D
Yes you're correct, most will be dealing within a budget. It does take time to put things together. Currently we have a Brother on another thread who seeks a place to puchase a decent kite shield with the Hospitaller colors on it, although I'm sure he'd take a blank and do the work himself.

I have a set of "full" butted chausses, but don't like their attaching point. I'm contemplating cutting them in half and doing a lacing across the back.

Of course I could always go back to Iraq for a spell to purchase a good set of riveted chausses to go with my shirt. :P

Thanks for your reply.

Quote from: Warrior_Monk on April 23, 2009, 01:20:32 PM

Quote from: Chris B on April 23, 2009, 01:01:09 PM
(http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s117/cboat97/005.jpg)

Always a favorite shot of mine.  ;D
Yes you're correct, most will be dealing within a budget. It does take time to put things together. Currently we have a Brother on another thread who seeks a place to puchase a decent kite shield with the Hospitaller colors on it, although I'm sure he'd take a blank and do the work himself.

I have a set of "full" butted chausses, but don't like their attaching point. I'm contemplating cutting them in half and doing a lacing across the back.

Of course I could always go back to Iraq for a spell to purchase a good set of riveted chausses to go with my shirt. :P

Thanks for your reply.

No problem.  I have found it best to make all my own shields.  I have actually gotten quite good at it!   ;D  It is always hard to find exactly what you want elsewhere anyways.

I am still playing with my chauses each time I wear them making small adjustments until hopefully, they will eventually fit perfectly.

BTW, wouldn't that brain bucket make it a 13th century appearance?

What sort of tip are you using on the lance? One with cross members?

Quote from: Warrior_Monk on April 23, 2009, 01:35:32 PM
BTW, wouldn't that brain bucket make it a 13th century appearance?

What sort of tip are you using on the lance? One with cross members?

Yes.  With the Great Helm it would be 13th.  I also have a spanghen helm and am getting a plain conical so I can push it forward or back with the impression.  The lance tip is hard to see in the pic because of the trees, but it is more of a triangular sectioned tip without any lugs.

(http://i44.tinypic.com/5eeko3.jpg)

Priceless!  ;D

Tonites the nite! Who will be victorious!

I still have my money on the Knight, One shot from a pistol will not help the pirate much.

Wow...I am shocked...

Well  who won????   I taped it because I knew it was going to go past my bedtime.  I was rushed this morning so I did not play back the ending.

The pirate won, however they made a mistake in the calculations because they did not take into account the knight's metal shield.  The firearms could never penetrate both the shield and the armor.

Regards,

CB

Like I said......

Next week on the deadliest warrior........

The Red Baron V an F-22 Raptor.  Who will win?  Please.

It isn't the same as comparing the red baron to a F-22 because the matches they have had have not had such differences in technology and capability.

There is obviously a lot of variability in how they evaluate the effectiveness of each weapon and armor and I have seen some obvious faults in their methodology, but it is an entertaining show.

With this particular episode the pirate has gunpowder with his flintlock pistol and blunderbuss however the knight has chainmail and plate armor and a steel shield and we still use steel for protection from firearms today.

I actually think the knight should have won since I doubt the blunderbuss would have been able to penetrate a steel shield and a breastplate.

But with any weapon the most important thing is how the individual uses it and what tactics he implements.

Regards,

CB

I was entertained and the knight should been victorious

(http://i39.tinypic.com/2hh3y1y.jpg)

This has to be the funniest one I've seen yet.  I especially get a kick out of the chosen experts and all the bashing that goes on between the two sides. Its also interesting to see the effects the weapons have on gel man and the pig carcasses.

I know its all on the silly side, however I will be watching next week as I will be curious to see who the experts are and how they will determine the outcome of the next match-up of Yakuza vs. Mafia

Mafia - the deadly crime family that rule New York's 1920's underworld, versus Yakuza - feared gang lords that dominate the mean streets of 1940's Tokyo. Their bloody turf war to decide who is deadliest will be settled with machine guns, sawn off shotguns, pistols, bats, nunchuks and icepicks.

Who chose this one? Is it  going to be, who gets the jump on who first?? Who ambushes better, or makes the better offer the other side can't refuse??  Interesting to me as I personally would of never considered these two groups as Warrior candidates. I'll just have to watch and see  ;)

Quote from: Chris B on April 29, 2009, 09:52:15 AM
The Red Baron V an F-22 Raptor.  Who will win?  Please.

I don't know Chris "Manfred Albrecht von Richthofen" is at the stick??  ;) ;D

Well like I said earlier, just in the Spartan v. Ninja episode alone, there were more mistakes on facts than I care to dictate in a thread.  Playing the devils advocate, and just for starters.  

Ninjato = Never existed in the form shown on the show, pure hollywood myth.
Aspis = Should have been bronze over wood lined in leather.  The shield was never just a bronze shell.
Cuirass = They were never as thick as 12 gauge.  The Greek metal used was thinner than this.
Swords = If your going to compare cleaving or cutting power, the Spartans also used the Falcata which has much better cleaving/cutting power than a xiphos.
The comment about Spartans being used to Phalanx warfare is also not on point.  They were also trained in Skirmish warfare as well.  Once a Phalanx broke and ran, there would have been more one on one contact.

Also,

There actually are vast differences in technology between a lot of these warriors.  Defensive and Offensive advancements were dynamic and always evolving to beat the next best advancement.  Just something as simple as adding ridges and browlines to a Roman helmet, for example, was a MAJOR advancement that helped protect a Legionnaire from the falcata and falx.  One century does make a huge difference.  

The other major problem is how clumsy they portray these warriors.  Just the first pass of the knight alone with a morning star or flail could have ended it at the onset.  I think the testing and first 3/4ths of the show is interesting without "the outcome" which is complete fabrication to say the least.

But all in all I agree with this:

"But with any weapon the most important thing is how the individual uses it and what tactics he implements."

They take all the human decision making process out of the equation which is THE most important factor in any dynamic encounter.  Boyd's Cycle comes to mind.

Quote from: Chris B on April 29, 2009, 10:51:30 AM
The other major problem is how clumsy they portray these warriors.  Just the first pass of the knight alone with a morning star or flail could have ended it at the onset.  I think the testing and first 3/4ths of the show is interesting without "the outcome" which is complete fabrication to say the least.

But all in all I agree with this:

"But with any weapon the most important thing is how the individual uses it and what tactics he implements."

They take all the human decision making process out of the equation which is THE most important factor in any dynamic encounter.  Boyd's Cycle comes to mind.

Absolutely without a doubt.  I must ask out of curiosity if you where asked to represent a warrior on this program which warrior would it be?

Quote from: Sir William Marcus on April 29, 2009, 11:18:55 AM

Quote from: Chris B on April 29, 2009, 10:51:30 AM
The other major problem is how clumsy they portray these warriors.  Just the first pass of the knight alone with a morning star or flail could have ended it at the onset.  I think the testing and first 3/4ths of the show is interesting without "the outcome" which is complete fabrication to say the least.

But all in all I agree with this:

"But with any weapon the most important thing is how the individual uses it and what tactics he implements."

They take all the human decision making process out of the equation which is THE most important factor in any dynamic encounter.  Boyd's Cycle comes to mind.

Absolutely without a doubt.  I must ask out of curiosity if you where asked to represent a warrior on this program which warrior would it be?

If I were going to have to represent one?  I guess I would have to say the Samurai because most my tactical training and formal weapons training with pre-modern weaponry is from the Japanese.

Excellent. Back in the late 80's early 90's I logged quite few hours in Kendo and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I really enjoy it too.  My sword training was all and will continue to be in Muso Shinden Ryu Iaido for the Katana.  It is very theraputic and peaceful to work on weapons movement...............at least for me.

The test of the blunderbuss is what killed it for me.  In the test against the armor they used modern BB's for the shot charge which to my knowledge is a far cry from the larger lead shot that would have been used by the pirate. The BB's velocity would potentially be 500 fps faster than the lead, on top of the fact that it is a harder material which would deform less on impact.  Basically, if they had done the test with a suitable shot the blunderbuss would have been much less effective against the armor causing little more damage than small dents. Against the sheild and armor it would be completely ineffective.

That blunderbus at close range under 20 yards, with lead shot ie.. 00,01, 04 buckshot or cube shot or buck and ball for that matter with an 80 grain charge it would have knocked holes all in that armor.  Pistols, oh ya like there going for 25 yard shots, not even, 25 feet maybe. But anyway it was fun to watch.

Red Baron vs an F-22? Are you kidding me?

I remember a story a teacher told the class once. He has served in Korea and every day this little North Korean Bi-plane would swoop down from the sky dropping little bombs on them and straffing them. They would call in air support and t Sabers would show up and could never deal withthe little bi-plane., He was far slower and more nimble than those F-86 sabers. After many weeks of this they called in two Vought F4u Corsairs. That did the trick as they could cruise at a much slower speed and turn around before the Bi-plane was gone. Shot him down dead.

Now the DR-1 that the Red Baron flew had a top speed of about 88 MPH and was very nimble. But one hit from a 20mm cannon and say good bye to Mr Richtofen. The Red Baron would never get a shot to hit an F-22. By the time he heard or even say the F-22, it would be gone. Not sure if a heat seeking missle would lock onto a DR-1 or even a radar locking.

I have watched this show on YouTube as I don't have Spike. Seems pretty far fetched to me with what they come up with. Just my thoughts.

Great story Lady de Laney, and BTW...

Quote from: Lady de Laney on April 30, 2009, 12:32:54 PM
Red Baron vs an F-22? Are you kidding me?

yes we were kidding  ;)

I would like to see Zulu Warrior vs Aztec Warrior. I think that would be a fairly level match up and would also introduce weapons we aren't used to seeing.

It was entertaining, but I think it a little too "out there".

I'm with renren, fun for the entertainment value, but beyond that not really very precise on outcomes on certain aspects. The only and I mean ONLY thing I can see the pirate really has over the knight is that his granado would have acted like a flash bang on the knight and give the pirate a chance to rush in and finish him off. But there are so many what if's in the duel it's not really a fair challenge one to the other.

No one can fault the show for entertainment value, and it might help spark some interest in folks and get them back in the books, but here's a little FYI I've run across:

http://www.martialdevelopment.com/blog/deadliest-warrior-combat-simulator/

I'm quite interested to see the computer's prediction of the bout between armored William Wallace and loincloth encased Shaka Zulu.


And why again didn't they choose a Knight of Malta around 1565 to fight the pirate?

Or a Samurai against a Warrior Monk of let's say.....the Teutonic Order?

This show is kind of like Celebrity Deathmatch which used to air on MTV.

I predict William Wallace will easily kill Shaka Zulu.

Regards,

CB

Wallace, Wallace, Wallace....... :P

I missed it and forgot to record it, who did they choose as the victor?

See my previous post.... ;D

Got it.  Was it unanimous?, or did Shaka sneak in a few on ole Billy Wallace.  ;)

62% Wallace

You all can thank Chris B for voicing the following...... ;) :P



Next week on Spike TV's Deadliest Warriors:

(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii245/Warrior_Monk/DW.jpg)

LMAO! (http://i40.tinypic.com/4tlxdj.jpg)

Yes.  Thank you.  I'll be here all week.  You can tip me on the way out.  ;)

One match up I would really like to see is longbow Archer from Agincourt vs Revolutionary Infantrymen. I have heard many account of Benjamin Franklin asking that we outfit our soldiers with longbows rather than muskets do to realiability and production issues. I think matching them up could provide us with some interesting results. Or better yet match the archers against Red Coats from the same era and see if Franklin's idea could have worked.

Well tonight is "IRA vs. Taliban".

I predict the IRA will win.

Whenever we hear about the Taliban or Al-Qaeda attacking a few Marines or a few Brittish soldiers the battle seems to end up being like 300 terrorists dead and one western soldier with a fleshwound.

When the IRA attacked Brittish soldiers in Northern Ireland they had much more success.

It is comparing intelligent people with good tactics with people who probably can't read and run into bullets in their pajamas.

Regards,

CB