Margos Underskirt/Forepart Question

[Lady Rebecca]

Rebecca, is that the one you made for the blue velvet gown?

Yep. Right now, the only forepart I have to snap on to it is the gold pearled one, but the next time I need a new forepart, I won't have to make a whole new underskirt!

[Sorcha]

Okay, you ladies have convinced me to go for the removable forepart.  I does make sense. 
The extra layer of fabric shouldn't make too much difference in the heat.  Hopefully. 

I have both of those Simplicity patterns...  Does 3782 really take 5+ yards??  That's almost as bad as Margos.

Ooo...  Edit to say:  Simplicity 3809 looks perfect for this idea.  126.5 skirt width and just 4 yards of fabric. 

[Cilean]

Okay,

#1. Margos patterns which I can tell you I adore, are not Historically Accurate. She actually used to state some skirts needed 16 yards of material!!! GULP

#2. To back this up? I have a link here that speaks about the difference in yards between now and Elizabethan Era.
http://www.elizabethancostume.net/fabuse.html

And another one to look at http://www.elizabethancostume.net/yardages.html

I am 5 10 and a size 16, I am very waist heavy and I use 4 yards of 54" fabric. I make a gored skirt.

[operafantomet]

Okay,

#1. Margos patterns which I can tell you I adore, are not Historically Accurate. She actually used to state some skirts needed 16 yards of material!!! GULP

#2. To back this up? I have a link here that speaks about the difference in yards between now and Elizabethan Era.
http://www.elizabethancostume.net/fabuse.html

Very good article, but... "non-royal nobility, represented by the clothing of Eleanor of Toledo"... Say what? She was a Spanish princess by birth, and Duchess of Tuscany by marriage. Her eldest son Francesco was referred to as "Prince of Tuscany. Though not a queen, Eleonora definitely should be considered royal.

Anyhow, do add a bit to this topic... Jennifer Thompson made an Italian dress some years ago, based on a portrait from the Northern Italian town of Bergamo. That dress includes a forepart, and she also dug into the mystery of how much fabric was needed for the skirt, and how the forepart should be attached.

ABOUT FABRIC USE:
"I bring all of this up because I think many costumers have been led to believe that you have to use anywhere from 8 to 15 yards or fabric in a skirt to be "right". If you look at the pattern books and surviving garments, this couldn't be farther from the truth since the 16th century examples do not support such excessive skirt widths at all. Using more historically correct construction methods (which makes use of gored panels instead of rectangular ones), you can get by with a mere 3 to 4 yards (or less) per skirt. This saves a ton of money, plus the gown won't be so ridiculously heavy."
http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/diary2002/page2.html

She ended up making an underskirt based on the Spanish late 16th century tailor Alcega. He has included a pattern for "a plump woman", and you can see how four fairly straight panels of fabric has gotten gores at the sides. To quote her, "I am quite pleased with the fullness of this skirt, and it's refreshing to know that you can make a historically correct skirt from less than 3 yards of 60" inch fabric". She used the same pattern for the overskirt, if I understood her correctly.
http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/diary2002/images/skirt2.gif
http://www.festiveattyre.com/research/diary2002/page3.html

The forepart was made by only 1 yard of fabric. The lower hem is trimmed with a wool fabric, and it's also lined with cotton, which probably makes it sturdier. I think it's tied to the waist in front and at the sides, but don't quote me on it...

Here is her finished ensemble:
http://www.festiveattyre.com/gallery/moroni/index.html
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2004/Jen.htm

[operafantomet]

I've been discussing the crimson 1560s Pisa dress in my blog lately. Today I added the layouts of the pattern for that dress compared to the one of Eleonora di Toledo. They were made by conservator Thessy Schoenholzer Nichols ca. 2000. The Pisa dress one is a hypothetical reconstruction of how the dress probably looked original, before it was remodeled and restored again. The Eleonora one is taken directly from her funeral dress, which has been pieced together as much as possible for 15 years.

More about the pattern layouts in my blog: http://operafantomet.livejournal.com/227153.html



The crimson Pisa dress and Eleonora di Toledo's funeral dress.

They're so similarly cut it's suggested the same tailor - Master Agostino - were responsible for both dresses. As you can see, both skirts depend on four straight panels, slightly longer in the back to allow a train, and with gores inserted at the sides. I'm too lazy to try and calculate how much fabric is actually needed for these skirts, but the gores allows a skirt with much fullness in the lower half and little bulk in the upper half, and I think we're talking max 5 yards. I made a Florentine dress about a year ago, and I followed Arnold's pattern for the Eleonora dress for the bodice and skirt (for the most). This is how the skirt looks, almost finished:


http://aneafiles.webs.com/peacock.html

Farthingales weren't used in Florence at this point, but the fashion still became more cone shaped. The inserted gores weren't done earlier in the century, which gave skirts with more bulk at the waist and less fullness in the lower half. The skirts weren't narrow, don't misunderstand, but they weren't as bell shaped as the second half of the 16th century. One example is the Florentine 1540 dress I made based on a portrait by Bronzino:


http://aneafiles.webs.com/bronzino.html

The skirt here is made by straight panels sewn together, without gores. The fabric was folded twice in the waist, and cartridge pleated to make a decorative effect of the fullness in the waist. Although Italian fashion, I think the still applies for English dresses. Goring the skirts became increasingly more common, to get rid of eventual bulk in the waist while still achieving a nice fullness in the hem. The gores also means less fabric is needed to create the effect.

[Cilean]

I forgot to mention in my last post and I am sorry, not all split skirts are showing were showing a forepart,  it might have been a kirtle as well.  I personally make a petticoat - I guess you would call it- with the forepart in the front, and you should have at least one petticoat on so that the dreaded hoops do not show through your forepart!  It is hard to look like this era, when when it is warmer than the time and having too many layers means -at least for me- causes issues.  The world was colder in the 16th Century, but we still have to deal with the heat issues in most of the US.

My eyes were opened during Ninya and Jane's visit from the UK during their very small Tudor Tailor discussions.  Our use of a huge Farthingale, and the god awful need to push our boob out of the bodice, when it never shows this, unless it is to make  sure you know it is cynical!  So many things we do in the course of SCA and Faires, is not true. The 'corset' without shoulder straps is something created and has no historical basis at all.  If you make one with the straps, I bet you would never go back to the other.  Not to mention the dags which help with how your body wears the corset.  Making sure the skirt hooks to your bodice or doublet makes a big difference as well!


To Opreafantomet,

I am confused, you seem to have quoted my post and links discussing English Fashion as we are speaking of Margo Anderson's Patterns, (Which are still awesome   ).  The sites I gave for examples of yardage used, were meant to show an example of this.   Susan Reed wrote this piece back in 1994 and I have her original site if you would like to speak to her about any issues, here you go! http://www.nachtanz.org/SReed/fabuse.html

While Susan does describe de Algeca and other regions, however, the article is mostly about English styles.

[operafantomet]

To Opreafantomet,

I am confused, you seem to have quoted my post and links discussing English Fashion as we are speaking of Margo Anderson's Patterns, (Which are still awesome   ).  The sites I gave for examples of yardage used, were meant to show an example of this.   Susan Reed wrote this piece back in 1994 and I have her original site if you would like to speak to her about any issues, here you go! http://www.nachtanz.org/SReed/fabuse.html

While Susan does describe de Algeca and other regions, however, the article is mostly about English styles.

Oh, I'm sorry, I was quoting something from the link you provided. Didn't mean to imply you were the one saying it, I just wanted the link as a reference in the quote. The full paragraph reads:

"This article will examine various types of garments worn in two time spans, 1540-1570 and 1570-1610 and the differences in consumption for various apparent social classes will be discussed with each garment type. Three social statuses are distinguished: royalty, represented by the clothing of Mary Tudor and Elizabeth Tudor; non-royal nobility. represented by the clothing of Eleanor of Toledo, Pfalzgrafin Dorothea Sabina von Neuburg, and others as depicted in Patterns of Fashion, and the layout described by Juan de Alcega; and rising gentry as represented by Thomasine Petre."