Attaching a Sleeve to a Bodice... With a Twist

[Sorcha]

So I'm trying to figure out how to attach my sleeve to my bodice.
This is the dress I'm attempting to replicate.
 
Here's my pickle...  I can't see the straps on the bodice.  I'm assuming there probably are thin, off the shoulder ones from looking at similar portraits.  I did put some similarly designed ones on my bodice. 

There is lace on both the edge of strap and the edge of the sleeve where they meet.  So if I use the "normal" method of attachment and put a tie from the bodice strap to the sleeve I am smooching over the top of the lace.   I believe others have found the way around that HERE http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/yourgarb/2008/Fiore.htm on the Realm of Venus site.  In this example the issue was resolved by putting small grommets/eyelets in the sleeve and then running the ribbon from the strap, under the lace and sleeve and then up through the eyelet to tie off at rosettes.  Which works perfectly for the two examples she is emulating.  My dress on the other hand looks like the hand made buttons of the time and not rosettes.  There also doesn't appear to be laces that tie off at the buttons. 

To attach a sleeve to a strap, in past I've used a variation of the idea of the elastic loop on the strap to a button on the top of the sleeve.  I believe I got that trick from sealion's beautiful cream dress. 
Sooo....  I'm thinking of a combination of that idea along with the idea from the RoV dress.  Run the elastic loop from the strap through a small eyelet just under a button and around it.   
But I'm afraid that eyelet might show from around the edge of the button or it might look goofy or...  I'm just not sure.  I've been able to figure out everything else on the construction of this dress but this issue.

Any ideas?? 

[DonaCatalina]

If you look at the right shoulder. There is a thin line of fabric between the poofy lace and the partlet. Is is puckered like there are a lot of tiny laces pulling on it and running through the lace to tie on to the sleeves.
They look to be spaced 1 or 1-1/2" around the sleeve.
You see a similar puckering of the left sleeve's upper edge.

[operafantomet]

"Manneristic" Venetian fashion favoured bodices where the narrow straps was placed on the very outer edge of the shoulder. They were definitely there, but with sleeves and "fluff" attached they could be completely hidden. But have a look at these "informal" Venetian dresses worn without sleeves:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/caldogno1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/detail1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/dance1565.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/caldogno3.jpg

(All from the magnificent Palladio villa "Caldogno" near Vicenza in Italy. I've seen the frescoes in real life, and I almost fainted... SO BEAUTIFUL!!!)

The trick with dealing with such narrow shoulder straps, is to make the back tight enough so it'll make the straps "hug" your shoulders (but without squeezing your back).

The portrait you've posted, seems to have a metal chain decoration (similar or identical to the girdle) on both sides of the lace "fluff" - that's an unusual feature. Often pleated or otherwise gathered fabric decorations are seen here. I don't know if the chain and the "fluff" is something you're going to copy... But for attaching sleeves I would actually go for a tie-on solution. The tie-on-ribbons can be visible, but I personally see it as an earlier style (and maybe more Tuscan and Lombardian). A hidden sort of tie-on would give you the opportunity to show a bit of the chemise, giving you a style similar to this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/robusti1580s.jpg

It's (as far as I know) from the same decade as the Montemezzano portrait you posted, so it should be pretty h/a.

Also, here's a full-length version of a dress rather similar (though a bit earlier) in style:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/operafantomet/renaissanceportraits/venezia2/veroneseorfasolo1558.jpg

[Sorcha]

Ooo...  I love the examples of the dresses without the sleeves.  That really helps me picture things better.   THANKS!
I've designed my sleeves to have the fabric cut at an angle to be more off the shoulder and they are fairly thin...  But I did want some support from them so they aren't as ribbon thin and loose to be super H/A.  I just wanted the off the shoulder look.

Okay... I'm warming up to the lacing idea. I do like the hidden sort with a little of the chemise showing. But how do I get the lacing from the shoulder to the sleeve without crossing over the top of the lace??  I see it sort of does but how does it attach?

Here's another example of the mystery buttons without lacing showing:

Big picture with zooming here:
http://realmofvenus.renaissanceitaly.net/wardrobe/DTintorettoCourtesan.jpg

[Artemisia]

Ooo, you got my thinking cap on!

How about this? (click for bigger image)


Excuse the very crude diagram. I'm terrible at cursor drawing.
Did I get it right?

[sealion]

I don't have any ideas to add but wanted to suggest posting your questions to Bella's Courtesan yahoo group to see what information the ladies there might have.