Period accuracy of pouches

[RumbaRue]

Whatever the case, we wear pouches on our belts so our hands can be free for other things.....like strangling idiots.
It's also a case of keep your money close to your body, pickpockets abound even back then!

[Nighthawk]

Most artists of the various periods mixed their own paints from powdered pigments, and if they could get them then certainly weavers could, as well...

That's not entirely accurate. The process of painting on canvas is very different from the process of dying fabric. Different mordants are used on the dyes, and different mordants used on the same dye can produce varying results. The pigment types are different as well, from what I can gather. (I honestly don't know all the details- I hang out with weavers and cloth makers, and I know that this was a discussion at which I was a fly on the wall!)

My point was simply that painters were not the only ones who knew the various processes and materials used for achieving specific color results, and if a color or effect could be achieved in one way, then someone else, somewhere, would most certainly figure out a way to achieve it in a manner that enhanced their own particular craft, as well.  Your pardon, please... I should have been more clear. 

Oh, oh! Gotcha! Of course. And I sometimes am too literal! 

[Rani Zemirah]

No worries, Nighthawk!  It varies for me, day to day...  LOL  Sometimes it's the letter of the law, and sometimes it's the spirit of the law... although far too often these days I seem to want to be the OUTlaw!   

Rue, I agree!  Why would anyone walk around all day, every day, carrying a pouch in their hand when they could hang it from a perfectly sturdy, serviceable belt?!? 

[Rowan MacD]

These could be useful. Just take off the sides. Or in truth, they look primitive enough as is!
http://jas-townsend.com/index.php?cPath=7&osCsid=00ef02fe505368c3093183ca9c95a581

  Sweet. Thanks

[Nighthawk]

  Sweet. Thanks

My pleasure. Those guys have made small fortune off of me. All of my clothing that is not tartan is made from the cloths that they sell- they're excellent replicas of period fabrics! And the customer service from Townsend is unbeatable. Oh, and watch some of their tutorials. If you like Bruce Campbell movies, you'll love these guys! They ham it up as much as possible!

No worries, Nighthawk!  It varies for me, day to day...  LOL  Sometimes it's the letter of the law, and sometimes it's the spirit of the law... although far too often these days I seem to want to be the OUTlaw!   

Rue, I agree!  Why would anyone walk around all day, every day, carrying a pouch in their hand when they could hang it from a perfectly sturdy, serviceable belt?!? 

And there lies one of the great things about being a Scottish reenactor! NO ONE can tell me that a sporran isn't accurate! 

[Rani Zemirah]

I've never had anyone say anything to me about not being period accurate, but I haven't been to quite as many Faire's as some here have, and I'm not involved in any organizations that require that sort of accuracy, so I don't really worry about it.  I honestly don't know what I would say if I was accosted that manner, but I like to imagine I would simply laugh... and walk away. 

[Hatter]

I realllllly dislike garb Nazis.  Period smeriod.. If it works for you then you should be able to wear it with out some snooty person offering unsolicited critique.  If pouches were only held in ones hand where did the term "cut purse" come from?  A thief certainly could not cut the pouch while it was being held.

[DonaCatalina]

I've never had anyone say anything to me about not being period accurate, but I haven't been to quite as many Faire's as some here have, and I'm not involved in any organizations that require that sort of accuracy, so I don't really worry about it.  I honestly don't know what I would say if I was accosted that manner, but I like to imagine I would simply laugh... and walk away. 

Well, I just smiled. But I started this thread so other people would be forewarned.... and forarmed.

[Rani Zemirah]

I love all the painting references, DonaC!  I particularly love the museum pieces, though, and I wish there were diagrams of just how some of those pieces were made, because I'd love to try reproducing some of them (well, rough approximations, anyway)!  I poured over those links for a few hours...    heheh

[operafantomet]

Being that hidden pockets did not come into play to well into the 17th century, wearing pouches that were on straps of some kind or hung from belts, made a lot of sense.

Do you mean loose pockets hidden under the clothes, or modern pockets? The latter is actually a variant of the former, biggest difference being that the slit of the pocket is now attached to the slit of the garb. Earlier they were separate items, and therefore the pocket was attached to a belt/string.

For women I've found proofs of loose pockets from the mid 16th century, possibly earlier. Eleonora di Toledo's funeral dress shows a pocket which was probably sewn to the skirt. I've written a bit about the topic here:
http://aneafiles.webs.com/saccoccia.html

I know http://peteyfrogboy.livejournal.com/ has also done some research on renaissance pockets, but for men. He has focused on the ones hanging from the belt, but I think he's found an example of both. Alas this was the only entry I could find about it right now:
http://peteyfrogboy.livejournal.com/101065.html

[Rani Zemirah]

Ummm... if a garb snark has the temerity to try and lift my skirt to see if my pockets are attached then they will be in for a rather sudden (and quite possibly painful) lesson in manners!!!   

Sorry, but the image that popped into my head with that was just too humorous to keep to myself! 

[Rani Zemirah]

Sooo... this thread, and all the wonderful links attached to it, made me really want to make some pouches!  I have lots of beautiful fabrics, but I noticed most of the paintings seemed to depict leather pouches, and since I just happen to have a whole side of the most gorgeous chocolate brown vat dyed top grain leather...  Well, you can imagine my dilemma in deciding which one to attempt first!  Since the leather is fairly thin, only about 3-3.5 ounce weight, I decided to try something fairly simple, and relatively shapeless, first.  This is probably not the place to be showing it off, but I just couldn't resist...    I'll be cross-posting it to the Crafting forum, as well.

My first attempt...
Closed:


Open:


It really does hold the cell phone, large bunch of keys and the lipstick case that I used for the money. 

[BLAKDUKE]

Then this period correct garb Nazi will go absolutely bonkers when he sees the pouches that I make for sale at faires.  I pick ladies purses at flea markets, yard sales and thrift stores.  Usually any of the ones that have a fold over flap instead of a zipper in the front.  Make a couple of belt loops and up for sale.  I especially like the fur ones.  The scots usually scarf those up.  It must be that sheep thing. (smile)

The BLAKDUKE

[jcbanner]

I can't claim to know the history of pouches, but I am good with making things for practical application.  For example, when I was new to renfaires I made myself a drawstring pouch that I would tie to my belt by the draw string.  The cord broke from the friction of having to constantly be tied and untied from my belt each time I needed to get into it and always swinging at my side. it almost goes without saying how annoying it became having to untie it from my belt each time I wanted to open the pouch.

I think it was after the second weekend with that pouch that I took a scrap of leather left over from making belts and added a belt loop to the pouch.  haven't had a single issue with that pouch since.

Anyone would have a very hard time convincing me that someone 500 years ago frustrated with the same problem wouldn't have had the ability to come up with a similar easy fix.

[operafantomet]

Someone at Scarborough recently told His Lordship that his loop over the belt pouch was not accurate to 1533.

Going back to this initial post. Ya know, what he was told it totally bovine poopie. I've seen surviving examples and depictions from both Italy and Germany from the 15th century where men wears pouches attached to their belt. Like in the Larsdatter site you linked to, there's several examples there. http://www.larsdatter.com/pouches.htm

And also here:
http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/b/botticel/91late/132nativi.html

What I dislike about certain faires and SCA events is that some people get an idea in their head and they want everyone else to live by it. Nevermind that it's historically incorrect...

ETA: In this link you can even see examples of a period man's shoulder bag!
http://peteyfrogboy.livejournal.com/65044.html