2008 Weapons Policy?

[Black Armor]

"I believe that wherever alcoholic beverages are being sold even if your not drinking, a concealed weapon is prohibited. If you are drinking alcohol you are not able to carry. The laws are very strict where concealed weapons are concerned."


According to the "Concealed Weapons Handbook" it says that a CCW holder may not carry in a, "Dining room, lounge or bar area of a premises licensed under the Liquor Control Code" (there's also a list of other places they are prohibited from carrying).  I know that either the faire or the individual vendors would have to have liquor licenses to serve alcohol but I don't know how that would work with it being an outdoor festival.  I guess it would be up to the Oakland County Prosecutor to decide if that is a violation; however, the owner of the faire has the right to ban CCW holders from carrying on his property.  And you are right that CCW holders can't drink. 

The next question is how would security ensure that CCW holders weren't bringing weapons in?  The only way I can think of would be pat-downs at the gate.  I don't think they'd have much luck with metal detectors but how much fun would it be to watch them try!?

[Margaret]

A lot of great information and discussion here.  I was wondering what the "peace ties" would actually be. 

I am betting they will use plastic zip ties.  Personally, that's all I have seen used and they are pretty quick to secure and pretty sturdy.

[nliedel]

zip ties, per management. Four colors. I cannot remember the significance of the colors, other than it has nothing to do with how much booze one will be able to consume. I was assured of that.

[nliedel]

The next question is how would security ensure that CCW holders weren't bringing weapons in?  The only way I can think of would be pat-downs at the gate.  I don't think they'd have much luck with metal detectors but how much fun would it be to watch them try!?

There are no plans for pat downs that I know of. Although it would depend on the looks of the patter, per this potential pattee.

[L Dale Walter]

Well, hello, fellow pyro.... you must be very busy over there. I'm kind of surprised you hadn't commented sooner on this topic.

Nah, just letting the usuals state their piece.  It really doesn't concern me, so I figured let those who it does thrash it out.  If I am carrying a sword someone is paying me to do so.

Do you recall anything about that when you were doing the show here, or was it simply not covered?

I think I -may- have been the last person actually attacked by a patron with a weapon.  He got arrested.  That was back in like 1987 however, and was one of the reasons for the no weapons policy.

During my second tenure there it was always no weapons, so it really never came up.

Most people with concealed carry permits have gone through extensive training, massive amounts of money to get the permit in the first place,

I am sorry to tell you this, but you are wrong.  When I had my general concealed carry permit (in the 90's) that was true.  The Oakland County Officer on the licensing board when looking at my credentials said "You are better trained than our SWAT Team..." and I had spent thousands of dollars, and hundreds of hours training (Including 4 weeks at Thunder Ranch in Texas).  Now if you pay $100, take a one day course, and pass a background check, you get a carry permit.  Crimes by permit holders are, however, not even enough to be statistically significant, so it really isn't a problem.  I do, however, know lots of people with carry permits that are hardly qualified to wield a spoon...

zip ties, per management. Four colors. I cannot remember the significance of the colors, other than it has nothing to do with how much booze one will be able to consume. I was assured of that.

Sounds like overthinking to me.  Bright color zip tie.  Easily spotted.  Problem solved. 

Of course 43 different colors and a complex codeing system will be a lot more fun to watch...

LDW

[Lord Pumpernickel]

Crimes by permit holders are, however, not even enough to be statistically significant, so it really isn't a problem. 

I tried quoting statistics once in this forum, didn't go over to well.

[Malcolm]

Crimes by permit holders are, however, not even enough to be statistically significant, so it really isn't a problem. 

I tried quoting statistics once in this forum, didn't go over to well.

The statistics I've seen clearly show permit holders have a lower rate of crimes with guns than the general public.

[L Dale Walter]

Just noticed this one:

My own blade is a fifteen pound broadsword that I would not carry with me. My dress is fifteen pounds. That alone is enough for this lass.

15 Lbs?  Are you sure?  Having literally hundreds of weapons I only have one that begins to hit that weight.  It is the sword I made on a bridgeport mill when I was 16 (back when dinosaurs walked the earth and swords were not available commercially - in 1981) that we refer to as "The Girder" as it could, quite literally, hold up a building.  It is 1/2 inch thick 2 inch wide cold rolled steel.  It weighs 13 Lbs.

Even my huge 5.31 foot long Del Tin Two Handed Sword (2162 for you Del Tin Fans) weighs just over 8 Lbs.

Now Starfire's silly 48" Claymore (total length 68 inches) weighs 13 Lbs.  But other than anchor a boat, I can see little use for it.

So I am wondering, what in the world are you using?

L. Dale Walter
::Insert some stuff here as you see fit::

[max and kate]

15 pound broadsword? Yow! Must be a mistake but a 15 pound dress that's quite possible.

[Black Armor]

Although I dare not agree with your reasoning and and precautions of carrying a weapon into faire. I do believe that it is an over statement of the natural reality. To put forth the statistics/physics and apply mathematics to the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.

I don't believe you were "quoting statistics" but rather stating your opinion of the possibility of someone taking your peace tied weapon.  Unless you actually have some documented statistics that were obtained as a result of a study of incidents at renaissance faires where peoples' peace tied weapons were taken, in which case I would be more than happy to hear them.  

Anyway, 90% of statistics can be made to say anything 50% of the time.  At least that's what I heard.  

[Lord Pumpernickel]

Although I dare not agree with your reasoning and and precautions of carrying a weapon into faire. I do believe that it is an over statement of the natural reality. To put forth the statistics/physics and apply mathematics to the possibility of someone else stealing your weapon while peace tied is minimum and nearly ignorable. To think someone will steal your blade while peaced tied is stupid and irrational.

I don't believe you were "quoting statistics" but rather stating your opinion of the possibility of someone taking your peace tied weapon.  Unless you actually have some documented statistics that were obtained as a result of a study of incidents at renaissance faires where peoples' peace tied weapons were taken, in which case I would be more than happy to hear them.  

Anyway, 90% of statistics can be made to say anything 50% of the time.  At least that's what I heard.  

Hahaha I like that quote. This is were my scientific based philosophy comes in. If test were actually done and experiments completed I would most likely refer to them as studies show, experiments show, or evidence shows depending on the creditability. When I just use the word statistics I actually refer to probability based of a priori argument. And of course I based currently used probability on on theorized rational events that could bare a weapon that is pieced tied and the physical requirements for that occur. For example starting from most probable to least (assuming weapons are properly pieced tied): Someone cuts your tie, tie locking mechanism fails, you accidentally cut your tie, the tie's molecular structure breaks down and evaporates away. Then applying Octum's razor it would it is easy to say the a priori statistics that I used.

A better example of why this can work, statistically the chance of the earth blowing up and very rare. Doing the work on a priori bases I doubt you will need actual test done to support that statistic.

Of course a priori arguments are weak and subject to change given any a posteriori argument shows otherwise.

[max and kate]

Lord P, now I see why your arguments don't go over well

[Lord Pumpernickel]

Lord P, now I see why your arguments don't go over well

Well please if you can elaborate perhaps I can see were I fail try and improve.

[nliedel]

My broadsword is a piece of crap that was made for me and I love it. It's used for religious purposes, not theatrical, so it's not getting drug out soon, but yes, it weighs almost fifteen pounds. You got me there, I did round up from fourteen point five.

I think, Lord P, that your arguments do not go over well, because it appears you try to talk over your arguees. Just a guess. We all know you're smart, that's enough. Now, it may be 100% possible this is your every language and that's the way it is, so forgive my guess, because that is all it is.

Four colors on the zip ties folks. Those who come every week are special. We do love our addicts.

A former MIRF addict, who can now no longer drink the ale. Honestly, I only ever have a glass a day, so it's not like I'll miss it. I'm a cheap drunk.

[Margaret]

I think, Lord P, that your arguments do not go over well, because it appears you try to talk over your arguees. Just a guess. We all know you're smart, that's enough. Now, it may be 100% possible this is your every language and that's the way it is, so forgive my guess, because that is all it is.

Or he's using the 'I know smart sounding words so my argument has more merit.' method.  Or, he's just pretentious.

~shrug~

Personally I think that his argument of discussing proper manners of carrying a weapon in a crowd will destroy the joy of wearing the weapon is a bunch of bunk.  While his a posteriori argument works well for only him in this case, we will be dealing with people who have not carried a sword before and posses neither system of knowledge and thus no experience at all with proper etiquette and attention to it.

Just like dressing in garb brings a certain amount of responsibility, so does carrying a weapon.  Since this is the first time in a long time that MIRF has allowed it - there is merit in the discussion of it.