Burda/German patterns & Saxon/Cranach gown discussion

[gem]

To the best of my knowledge, we have never talked about these! German pattern company Burda (now under the Simplicity umbrella) carries a line of historical costumes for adults and kids, which includes the only commercial (ie, readily available at your big box fabric store)  Saxon/Cranach gown pattern I've ever seen:



Larger view here.

Burda gets big raves by seamstresses for their well-drafted and fashion-forward mundane clothing patterns, but I've not seen their costumes discussed much anywhere, nor found any reviews.

Some of the patterns are very weird, but I thought this girls' medieval ensemble was cute:



And attention, GryffinSong: They carry a sideless surcoat!

[GryffinSong]

Awesome!!! And thanks!!!   I'll check them out next time I'm at Jo-Ann Fabrics. That sideless looks like it takes less fabric than some of them, and that's a very good thing.

[Lady L]

I like the gown, but is that the correct style of headpiece?

[DonaCatalina]

OOOH. I want that pattern for the German.
Yes, the headpiece is correct. It's the coif worn under the big brim hats.

[Lady L]

Yes, I found the same image in my search. I really like the dress. We are having German weekend again this year, at our faire and I am mostly German, so I thought about making it. But, I really hate that headpiece.  It won't work for me.

[DonaCatalina]

so don't wear the headpiece. 

[Elennare]

Are these new?  I've seen Burda patterns at JoAnn's, but they've never had a costume section in the pattern books before.  At least not that I've seen...

Those do look pretty nice.  The "weird" one looks like what you find at the Halloween store as a "Medieval" costume.

[gem]

Are these new?  I've seen Burda patterns at JoAnn's, but they've never had a costume section in the pattern books before.  At least not that I've seen...

I know the whole costume line isn't new; IIRC Marietta Graziella made the sideless surcoat ensemble a few years ago. But I've been trying to hunt down more info on the Cranach, and it looks like it was a Dec 2012 release.

The "weird" one looks like what you find at the Halloween store as a "Medieval" costume.

Totally agree!!  But isn't the point of sewing our own garb to AVOID looking like that?! LOL

[Aunty Lou]

The Napoleonic and Bustle-era costumes are not horrendous jumping-off points...  I've noticed that Burda has made more costumes lately, they used to only have Bavarian etnic ensembles.
I look at the major pattern companies as gateway drugs of garbing.  Something mild to start off with, for Halloween.  Expandable, embellishable, a base to change at will.  When one is hooked, then one moves on to RockingHorse Farm, to Laughing Moon Mercantile, and to Margo Anderson, before shooting the hard stuff, Drafting Yer Own!

[gem]

Ok, so I hit my LQS today to buy a wing needle for my embroidered apron, and I picked up the Saxon gown pattern while I was there. They charge the full retail price, so it was like $11 (I think Joann carries them for around $8). Still--not too shabby for a decent period pattern.

Looking at it, I'm starting to parse what works and what doesn't. Something about the silhouette seemed off for me--more "Ever After" than "Cranach gown." And I think it's largely the fit of the bodice below the bust. If you look at the original paintings Dona C posted, the real gowns fit SNUGLY below the bust, emphasizing a curvy figure. On the model, the Burda bodice just hangs there. I haven't looked at the pattern closely enough to see how easy this would be to adjust.

Nice details include the brustfleck (decorative panel across the bust) and the cuffs that cover the hands.

I'm also not crazy about the asymmetrical use of contrast fabrics and trims in the model gown--but what's *nice* is that the pattern tells you exactly how much fabric to budget for those sections, which is the sort of thing I never know how to figure out for self-drafted patterns!

Now. If somebody would only make this up, we could see how it really looks IRL! LOL Alarmingly, I have suddenly envisioned this in black pinwale corduroy, with the gold damask I used for my FIL's doublet. (can't add new project, can't add new project....)

[mellingera]

So feeling inspired for some reason, I decided that I must have this dress. I bought the pattern last night. After looking at the pattern, its going to require some... alterations. Which leads me to the following questions:

1. The pattern is for 2 separate pieces- bodice and skirt, but I'm finding it difficult from the portraits to tell if this is correct or not. Simple enough to do either way, but which do we think is the "right" way?

2. The bodice appears to be pullover, which would explain the loose way it fits on the model in the cover photo. The fit in the portraits seems much more tightly fitted. All the portraits I've found so far are fronts of the gowns so I can't find any evidence to indicate how they were held closed. I had a brief thought that maybe Upon further research, the visible lacing under the bust might appears to be how its held together, but I have way too much of me to be held back and together by that tiny bit of lacing... As I am already planning to do separate attachable sleeves it should be easy enough to turn the side seams into side laces. I think I'm going to have to do side lacing and have the front lacing just be decorative.

3. The pattern bodice has princess seems. Portraits do seem to indicate the dress, and person in, it have *some* curves, but it varies from painting to painting. Some show the bust as curved out and the under bust curved in, some look more flat. I'm so used to drafting out princess seams but I'm hesitating here. I'm not sure what to do or not do with it to make it look right. I'm at work so I can't post pictures of the pattern pieces as reference. But if maybe we can brain storm some ideas they can peculate in my head till I get home to the pattern. Thoughts, ideas?

[gem]

Mel, good questions! I've been considering starting a Saxon thread, but may well just rename this one.

From my limited reading in the last couple of weeks, there aren't any extent gowns similar to the Cranach style, so we don't really know what's going on, construction wise. Everything we* know has been cobbled together by re-constructors based on portrait evidence, experimentation, and analogues from other regions/styles. So. One piece? Two pieces? I've seen both done, and arguments both ways (mostly having to do with the way the pleats are constructed); I'd say do what you personally find easiest to wear.

*See how I say "we" like I am somehow involved and have shared in any of this research? Ha!! I mean the royal They, of course.

Um... a big no on the pullover bodice. LOL And my argument for that is this. Don't think that needs any other explanation!    Again, I've read several theories on bodice construction (mostly involving the white waist panel being absolutely smooth, not showing the "chemise wrinkles" you would expect, if there's nothing underneath the laces). One interesting method has it open/lace on one side, underneath the band of trim, and I found nice photos illustrating the process here--which is just a terrific resource for German costuming, all round.

Oh, and one last note--you may come across in your reading some theories about these gowns only being "appropriate" for slim figures. Pshaw!! Regardless of what Cranach depicted, there are gads of gorgeous costumers of all sizes making and wearing them.

[isabelladangelo]

We don't have an extant Cranach gown but we do have an extant one that is a few years before:
http://www.virtue.to/guest_authors/hungarian.html

There is a cutting diagram included and...no princess seams.  Princess seams really are an invention of the 19th Century.  Rather, the only thing that is really "added" to the extant gown is the breastband or brustflect is mostly shown in recreations as a simple band of velvet but it's hard to tell if that is really the case. 

[url]http://squtemporarily.blogspot.com/2012/02/cranach-gown-brustflect-construction.html[/url[

There are a TON of great websites out there with a ton of theories.   I personally think it's a short bodice with a white or red undergown.   (The short bodice is similar in cut to the bodice of the Italian regions at the same time.)  However, look at the paintings and come up with what you think is best.  I wouldn't really go with the Burda pattern but make up my own.  ...which I should do since I've had the fabric to make a Cranach gown forever.  :-)

[DonaCatalina]

I bought two copies. I will probably frankenpattern to make them look a little more like the portrait I like.

[mellingera]

Oh, I know pull over is definitely wrong, Gem!  I though I recalled you wondering why the top looked so odd on the model, that was my observation as to the reason why.

I cut out bodice pieces over the weekend and played around with pinning them together. This is one dress that will definitely require making mock ups till the cows come home to get this adapted right. The pattern itself in this case is really more of a "general guide" to an idea. I agree the white "laced" area looks nice and flat and pretty, I would not get that look if it were actual lacing and not just display. So, I'm definitely going to go with side lacing and I think it may be easier to make the skirt separate because of that, although I'd prefer to have it all one piece... Maybe if I feel up to tackling that when the time comes, I just might.

As to the princess seams, as a general rule, drafting them out is the first thing I would normally do with a new pattern. They only threw me for a loop this time because of the curves the women have in the portraits... I'll draft them out and make it up and we shall see how it turns out.

Thanks for the nudges in the right direction ladies!

[gem]

I found a really good Cranach gown diary with some interesting discussion of bodice construction and support. Philippa's Wardrobe. I also like how she made her skirt.

***
I have been trying to find information on the construction of the puff-and-slash sleeves, and I'm not coming up with much. (Frex, are they panes, as shown in the Burda pattern? Or slits in sleeves that have been drawn up to puff out? Or something else?)

Does anyone have experience with the Period Patterns German gown pattern?



It's so hard to see what's going on in that line drawing....

[mollymishap]

snip...

Oh, and one last note--you may come across in your reading some theories about these gowns only being "appropriate" for slim figures. Pshaw!! Regardless of what Cranach depicted, there are gads of gorgeous costumers of all sizes making and wearing them.

I made a doll outfit a few years back modelled after a Cranach portrait and at the time I remember reading the theory that the style is more of a "juniors" or youthful style.  IIRC, the author (I don't recall where I read it) used this painting as support for their theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lucas_Cranach_d._%C3%84._007.jpg  .  I guess youthfulness & slimness do go hand in hand, but even if it were highly documented to be the case, who cares?  I'm pushing 50 and it wouldn't stop me from making/wearing one if I had a mind to.

[mellingera]

Reconstructing History has a Saxon (Cranach) Gown pattern as well.
http://store.reconstructinghistory.com/rh501-saxon-cranach-gown.html

Toward the end of the dress diary Gem mentioned, the writer mention she had used the Period Patterns pattern, but had heard really good things about the Reconstructing History one. The more I look at the work required to make the Burda pattern into something resembling what it should, the more I think it worth trying the Reconstructing History pattern instead. I've never used their patterns before, suggestions/comments/concerns? I've never used anything from them.

[gem]

I have serious reservations about the RH patterns. First, her research theories for this particular type of gown are questionable (IMO), her customer service is lacking, and I haven't heard favorable things about the quality of her patterns (I think Kate has some experience with them).

I do think RH research is otherwise very good--but I tend to steer clear of her products, because I haven't heard many positive reviews (or had good experiences myself). As always, YMMV.

The nice thing about the Period Patterns version is that it includes absolutely every single feature you'd ever want in a Saxon/German gown. If you've seen it in a portrait, I think it's in that pattern!

[gem]

I remember reading the theory that the style is more of a "juniors" or youthful style.  IIRC, the author (I don't recall where I read it) used this painting as support for their theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lucas_Cranach_d._%C3%84._007.jpg  .  I guess youthfulness & slimness do go hand in hand, but even if it were highly documented to be the case, who cares?  I'm pushing 50 and it wouldn't stop me from making/wearing one if I had a mind to.

You probably read it at Reconstructing History. From what I understand (and FWIW), that's where this idea originated.

And GO YOU! You would totally ROCK a Cranach gown.

(Oh, and have to add this funny. You know how you read stuff you maybe hardly ever hear said aloud? Yesterday I was talking about German gowns with Milord, and he stopped me and said, "What in the world is a 'chronic gown?'"  I guess I'm not 100% sure on the pronunciation! CRAH-nahk? Crannick? Anyone?  )

[mollymishap]

snip...

(Oh, and have to add this funny. You know how you read stuff you maybe hardly ever hear said aloud? Yesterday I was talking about German gowns with Milord, and he stopped me and said, "What in the world is a 'chronic gown?'"  I guess I'm not 100% sure on the pronunciation! CRAH-nahk? Crannick? Anyone?  )

OMG!  ROFLOLPMP!!!

[CenturiesSewing]

According to this http://www.forvo.com/word/lucas_cranach/
It sounds like Cran-ahk - soft k to me.

[Kate XXXXXX]

Said exactly the way it's spelled, as far as I can make out...  Well, if you're a Scot and pronounce 'ch' as in loch, that is!   

RH 'history' seems to be dubious at best: third hand research, largely, and very little actual talking to people who know any social history, cloth manufacturing history, or real construction details, and very little of the sort of research Janet Arnold, Susan North, Jenny Tiramini, or Ninya Mikhaila have done.  Very little white gloving at museums and very little actual measuring and experimenting with stitch and construction methods.  Far to many of the pieces are poorly drafted and not sized properly: it's almost as if the patterns have never been fully tested.

I usually find it less trouble to go back to the sources, back to the folk who HAVE done the research, draft up the patterns from scratch, size them from there to the customer measurements, and then add the details we want.  And to go back to the original method of construction for the type of garment and find out WHY that works better than some half-baked modern method with no historical basis.  No, I don't do every stitch by hand, but when it came to fitting the sleeve into the armscye of my silver gown, for example, it became obvious that this was never going to be anything other than hand constructed because there was no other way to do it!

 



There are placed down the back where the sleeve head seam is a whole two inches from the armscye!


After taking acres out here, adding bits there, redrafting sleeves completely, and struggling to makes bits actually fit a human body - all on the one pattern! - I gave up on RH completely.

[isabelladangelo]

Said exactly the way it's spelled, as far as I can make out...  Well, if you're a Scot and pronounce 'ch' as in loch, that is!   

RH 'history' seems to be dubious at best: third hand research, largely, and very little actual talking to people who know any social history, cloth manufacturing history, or real construction details, and very little of the sort of research Janet Arnold, Susan North, Jenny Tiramini, or Ninya Mikhaila have done.  Very little white gloving at museums and very little actual measuring and experimenting with stitch and construction methods.  Far to many of the pieces are poorly drafted and not sized properly: it's almost as if the patterns have never been fully tested.

They haven't.  I won't give up my "sources" but I do know, for a fact, that her early patterns were tested and are sized pretty well.  It's anything she made after the first five or six patterns that gets into the questionable territory to down right wrong.  She lives in Saint Croix, USVI now. 

[Kymberleigh]

Does anyone have experience with the Period Patterns German gown pattern?



It's so hard to see what's going on in that line drawing....

I have this pattern but haven't made anything from it yet (view V - 2014 project).  The instructions are okay, they aren't the most detailed and can be rather confusing to follow.  Anything specific you want to know?

[Margaret]

I have this pattern, but it's at work right now.  Once I get in to the office, I know it has some good construction notes and other such fun stuff.  I can let you know what it says when I get there.

Reconstructing History has a Saxon (Cranach) Gown pattern as well.
http://store.reconstructinghistory.com/rh501-saxon-cranach-gown.html

Toward the end of the dress diary Gem mentioned, the writer mention she had used the Period Patterns pattern, but had heard really good things about the Reconstructing History one. The more I look at the work required to make the Burda pattern into something resembling what it should, the more I think it worth trying the Reconstructing History pattern instead. I've never used their patterns before, suggestions/comments/concerns? I've never used anything from them.

[gem]

Forgot I had seen this before... this costumer has a dress diary featuring the Period Patterns pattern: Landsknecht Gown Diary, and on Page Four, she has this beautiful photo of two gowns she made from it.

Page 3 seems to be a detailed account of sleeve construction (tho' I haven't read it through carefully yet).

I believe she said that she was a novice seamstress when she made these!

[mollymishap]

LOL!  I was looking into joining that group last year.  I acted with her husband years ago when I was doing the New England circuit & he's a great tailor, so I imagine he would have helped her out at first.  All the garb that I saw them wearing at the event I went to--to "check them out" as it were--was very well made & complemented their characters.  I still might join them someday, things just got a bit hectic for me last year so it wasn't feasable. 

BUT, back to the topic at hand: the point is that I've seen those gowns up close & personal & if she used the PP pattern, then that's a good recommendation.